Discussion What is a True Pirate King?

[Hannibal Psyche]

You're complicating something very simple, and taking the word of the general population(Example Coby) and every of their nuances to try to define it.

Just read the first page of the first chapter and you get what it is.

If you want to understand when Gol D. Roger got it, listen to Rayleigh conversation about when people started calling Gol D. Roger Pirate King.

Simply put: Pirate King is the pirate in the top of Power, Fame and Wealth. When people start widely and without much arguments chanting that you are it, than you start being it.
What you need to do in specific to reach that state depends and various people have various opinions about that, but is easily to agree that has to be something big.

Note that the One Piece is just the Wealth part of Pirate King. Note that the One Piece didn't exist before Gol D. Roger, One Piece IS Gol D. Roger Treasure.

It's not a title that's given by people, but a title that is earned. Not something that you become when people decide you are, but something you are once you achieve a certain feat.

It says "FINALLY ACHIEVED" what was referred to be impossible, and that's conquering the Grand line that EARNED Roger the title Pirate King.

The act of conquering the Grand Line was just summarised by the title "Pirate King". Even if he wasn't called Pirate King, he'd be known as the man who conquered the Grand Line which would still be the most estimable achievement that can be achieved in the world.

The title itself is of no relevance, it's the act; had he not accomplished the impossible, he'd never have been Pirate King.

If a man rules a country, that act can be summarised by a title: King, President, Prime Minister, etc. The title holds little relevance, it's the act that defines the title.

One Piece may be Roger's Treasure, but why would the World Government be so afraid of wealth? they're rich. The only reason they're afraid of One Piece is because it leads to the Poneglyph; the name One Piece is a double-entendre that asol refers to the union of the Poneglyph which when it becomes "One Piece" or unified reveals the entire history of the world.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 20, 2016 ---

Being the PK in Roger's time seem liked he earned the respect of all, and after a certain time he got the name (correct me if I'm wrong).

Look at the above post and panel, it's not something bestowed by the people, but something attained by achieving the act of conquering the Grand Line. Bare in mind too that Roger was hated by the world, last thing they'd want to do is acknowledge him.

 

[Fox666]

One Piece may be Roger's Treasure, but why would the World Government be so afraid of wealth? they're rich. The only reason they're afraid of One Piece is because it leads to the Poneglyph; the name One Piece is a double-entendre that asol refers to the union of the Poneglyph which when it becomes "One Piece" or unified reveals the entire history of the world.

One Piece is not the true history of the world. Luffy asked Rayleigh not to tell what the first one is, yet he openly admitted that the Roger Pirates discovered the later.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

One Piece is not the true history of the world. Luffy asked Rayleigh not to tell what the first one is, yet he openly admitted that the Roger Pirates discovered the later.

Is is the history.

One Piece is 2 things; both treasure which Roger accumulated and the entire history of the world.

Rayleigh mentioned that he knew the history before Usopp asked; they however do not know that the history is what One Piece is, they're completely oblivious to it. Even if Rayleigh mentioned it (which he did), they wouldn't know. Luffy explicitly tells us that he and others do not know what it is, they simply think it's wealth and are not sure if it even exists.

Usopp asked whether the treasure exists, and Luffy said he didn't want to know. Luffy just isn't aware.

Just read what Whitebeard said concerning One Piece, he literally revealed what it was:

Whitebeard:That will has been passed down from long ago!! And in the future,,,someday, a man will appear, bearing the weight of the centuries of history on his shoulders to challenge the world. Sengoku... Your World Government is afraid... afraid of the coming war that will engulf the world!!! I wasn't interested, but when someone finds that treasure... the world will be shaken to its core!! Somebody will find it...that day will certainly come.

The only reason WG don't want it found is because they do not want the history to be known because it'd result in a revolution. We have to remember that this void history is exactly what One Piece revolves around.

Roger added the wealth and treasure to be a part of One Piece to lure people into Piracy, so that they could find out this truth bit by bit as the went on with their adventure. The WG isn't scared of treasure, but about the history being discovered; there's a reason the Poneglyph are banned from being researched, it's the only way from stopping the history which One piece leads to, being discovered.

 

[Brandish μ]

Look at the above post and panel, it's not something bestowed by the people, but something attained by achieving the act of conquering the Grand Line. Bare in mind too that Roger was hated by the world, last thing they'd want to do is acknowledge him.

So wouldn't that mean he'd need to be acknowledged? Or does he simply have to sail everywhere?

Luffy would need to be acknowledged by the pirates and government as the Pirate King. They don't need to like the person who is PK, but they can respect him.

The people (like regular citizens) would only know what the newspapers tell them anyway.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

So wouldn't that mean he'd need to be acknowledged? Or does he simply have to sail everywhere?

Luffy would need to be acknowledged by the pirates and government as the Pirate King. They don't need to like the person who is PK, but they can respect him.

The people (like regular citizens) would only know what the newspapers tell them anyway.

The one thing that the citizens will always know is the outcome of battles.

Roger was notorious for fighting as we learn from Garp and Whiebeard who said that they fought all the time.

Getting acknowledged by Pirates can be done quite easily as far as I can see:

1. If Big Mom is defeated for example, Luffy will instantly get acknowledged and respected even by her subordinates (irregardless of hating him).
2. If Kaido were defeated, he'd get the same acknowledgement.

He'd not just be acknowledged by fellow Pirates, but by the WG and therefore, the world.

To be acknowledged is attained by achieving or pulling off something remarkable.

On top of defeating these strongest Pirates, to be known to have also obtained the World's Secret would also have the individual recognised as the ruler of the Ocean.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

It's not a title that's given by people, but a title that is earned. Not something that you become when people decide you are, but something you are once you achieve a certain feat.

It says "FINALLY ACHIEVED" what was referred to be impossible, and that's conquering the Grand line that EARNED Roger the title Pirate King.

The act of conquering the Grand Line was just summarised by the title "Pirate King". Even if he wasn't called Pirate King, he'd be known as the man who conquered the Grand Line which would still be the most estimable achievement that can be achieved in the world.

The title itself is of no relevance, it's the act; had he not accomplished the impossible, he'd never have been Pirate King.

If a man rules a country, that act can be summarised by a title: King, President, Prime Minister, etc. The title holds little relevance, it's the act that defines the title.

One Piece may be Roger's Treasure, but why would the World Government be so afraid of wealth? they're rich. The only reason they're afraid of One Piece is because it leads to the Poneglyph; the name One Piece is a double-entendre that asol refers to the union of the Poneglyph which when it becomes "One Piece" or unified reveals the entire history of the world.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 20, 2016 ---

Look at the above post and panel, it's not something bestowed by the people, but something attained by achieving the act of conquering the Grand Line. Bare in mind too that Roger was hated by the world, last thing they'd want to do is acknowledge him.

Have you some semantic and understanding problems!

Talking about the specifics of Gold D. Roger being called Pirate King doesn't in any way goes against my argument.
And I don't understand what your point about the title not being important but the act. The thing here is that the title doesn't represent just one specific and well defined act. Specially because Gol D. Roger was the first to be called the Pirate King and it wasn't a official title(One where an institution set a group of rules that when done it gives you the title).

I said "What you need to do in specific to reach that state depends and various people have various opinions about that, but is easily to agree that has to be something big." It seems you took that to saying that Roger didn't achieved something in specific, that isn't in any way what I implied. Also note by Big it includes "something revered as impossible".
So Gol D Roger conquered the Grand Line(that means travelled all over it, basically a voyage around the world), a Big achievement, one considered impossible until that time(and is interesting to note that other pirates before Roger were interested in that. For that you have Brook and his crew) and since than started to be called Pirate King. Still, people(And the Main Statement by the Author) generally say he is the Pirate King because he achieved everything the World have to Offer: Power, Fame and Wealth. Many people, and even the same people in different moments, say to be Pirate King you have to get his Wealth(One Piece), is Power(Beat the Yonkou and Rule the Grand Line specifically the New World), Fame(have the biggest bounty, be recognized as the strongest pirate, conquer the Grand Line like Roger did).
Pirate King in the end just means being the unquestionable Top Pirate. What you have to do? Many people have many ideas about that, but only after one achieves those things, will he see when he be recognized as Pirate King.

"Pirate King" Is just a name, exactly just like the "Big 3" in the anime community. One Piece, Naruto and Bleach got it because they achieved something in concrete, though it still something that people started calling them, and between all the people that uses and talks about that title doesn't exist one unique and totally agreed absolute definition of it. That because its creation was pretty loose and its definition ended also like that.

The World Government isn't afraid of the One Piece, what they are afraid is of Raftel, the info that is in there and the void century. One Piece is just "supposedly" in there. Why in there you ask? Because "supposedly" Gol D. Roger left his treasure there(and obviously it was on purpose).
Also the major problem the government has with the One Piece is that its Legend alone created the Great Era of Piracy.

 

[Freid]

We won't know how Luffy becomes Pirate King until it happens. This is Luffy's story, not Roger's and his life is not a manual. If there were ever any conventional methods to becoming Pirate King, it doesn't have to be Luffy's especially when manga protagonists usually go against the grain. kinda like how Naruto's journey to become Hokage was a lot different to the normal system of just rising up the ranks. The tests he should have taken, he never took, and the missions he should have went on, he never did..but my dude still ended up becoming the first Genin Hokage. My point is, Luffy doesn't have to follow the same current as everyone else especially since in his own words, he doesn't wonna conquer anything, he just wants to be the freest man on the sea. His achievements can be different to Roger's but will still be as great as, if not greater than his..enough to earn him the fame and respect to be called a Pirate King.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Have you some semantic and understanding problems!

Talking about the specifics of Gold D. Roger being called Pirate King doesn't in any way goes against my argument.
And I don't understand what your point about the title not being important but the act. The thing here is that the title doesn't represent just one specific and well defined act. Specially because Gol D. Roger was the first to be called the Pirate King and it wasn't a official title(One where an institution set a group of rules that when done it gives you the title).

I said "What you need to do in specific to reach that state depends and various people have various opinions about that, but is easily to agree that has to be something big." It seems you took that to saying that Roger didn't achieved something in specific, that isn't in any way what I implied. Also note by Big it includes "something revered as impossible".
So Gol D Roger conquered the Grand Line(that means travelled all over it, basically a voyage around the world), a Big achievement, one considered impossible until that time(and is interesting to note that other pirates before Roger were interested in that. For that you have Brook and his crew) and since than started to be called Pirate King. Still, people(And the Main Statement by the Author) generally say he is the Pirate King because he achieved everything the World have to Offer: Power, Fame and Wealth. Many people, and even the same people in different moments, say to be Pirate King you have to get his Wealth(One Piece), is Power(Beat the Yonkou and Rule the Grand Line specifically the New World), Fame(have the biggest bounty, be recognized as the strongest pirate, conquer the Grand Line like Roger did).
Pirate King in the end just means being the unquestionable Top Pirate. What you have to do? Many people have many ideas about that, but only after one achieves those things, will he see when he be recognized as Pirate King.

"Pirate King" Is just a name, exactly just like the "Big 3" in the anime community. One Piece, Naruto and Bleach got it because they achieved something in concrete, though it still something that people started calling them, and between all the people that uses and talks about that title doesn't exist one unique and totally agreed absolute definition of it. That because its creation was pretty loose and its definition ended also like that.

The World Government isn't afraid of the One Piece, what they are afraid is of Raftel, the info that is in there and the void century. One Piece is just "supposedly" in there. Why in there you ask? Because "supposedly" Gol D. Roger left his treasure there(and obviously it was on purpose).
Also the major problem the government has with the One Piece is that its Legend alone created the Great Era of Piracy.

Conquer refers to 2 things; one is to defeating opposition.

Conquer is a word that denotes to battle.

When we're told that the Vinsmokes want to conquer North Blue, you don't assume they're looking to sail all over it, but to defeat all those who currently rule it.

Conquering isn't finding something, conquering generally is to do with defeating.

​

When we were told that Blackbeard Conquered Whitebeard's territory, I doubt anyone was thinking that he simply just found it, he fought to take it over; conquering is an antagonistic word.

1. What did Rayleigh say to Luffy when he said he'd be Pirate King and find One Piece? He said your enemies will be "strong", can you really "conquer" this wild sea?
   Spoiler

   
2. Chinjao says Pirate King is the Pirate who defeats all Pirate King contenders. - Strength Implications
   Spoiler

   
3. Chinjao asks if he's strong enough to defeat Admirals and Yonko like Roger after saying he'll be Pirate King. - Strength implications
   Spoiler

   
4. Sengoku says Shiki can't defeat Roger being that he's Pirate King.Finding treasure surely can't be a reason why someone can defeat another person, Pirate King denotes supremacy in strength between a Pirate and all other Pirates - Strength Implications
   Spoiler

   
5. Akainu says Roger stopped Whitebeard from becoming Pirate King. - Strength implications
   Spoiler

   
6. Coby said death is imminent in becoming Pirate King because of strong pirates - Strength Implications/Defeating Strong Opponents
   Spoiler

   
7. Luffy saying a Pirate King defeats both Yonko and Admirals- Strength Claims
   Spoiler

   
8. Blackbeard saying this is his age (aka heir to the throne or Pirate King) only after he deems himself the strongest. - Strength Claims
   Spoiler

   Lastly, even Blackbeard says it's his age ONLY after he's certain he's the strongest. If it's not obvious who Pirate King is based on the evidence, then I think we'll just agree to disagree because there's not much to support the claim the majority made by yourself and many others.

   Spoiler

   

   

A lot or reference to strength.

Even though proving one's strength is a huge part of becoming (conquering the Grand Line), it's not the only factor. Whitebeard ruled the Grand Line, but never took the throne or ceased power by obtaining the knowledge/secret of the world which Kaido just tried to extract from Oden. Whitebeard was even referred to as the King of the sea, but not Pirate King.

Spoiler

Pirate King is whoever:

1. Defeats opposing Emperors and Admirals (which Whitebeard did, but he never became King as this was all he did)
2. Finding the One Piece that Whitebeard never did (which is the entirety of the Poneglyph found in Raftel)
   Spoiler

   

Without conquering the Grand Line which is defined as these 2 acts being accomplished, no one can become Pirate King.

You can't even look or get to Raftel without taking on the Emperors; Kaido has a Road Poneglyph as does Big Mom; you'd need to defeat them to obtain it.

The World Government isn't afraid of the One Piece, what they are afraid is of Raftel,

You'd find the Manga says otherwise, they are indeed afraid of One Piece. Whitebeard explicitly states that they are too.

Spoiler

Whitebeard said it:

Whitebeard:That will has been passed down from long ago!! And in the future,,,someday, a man will appear, bearing the weight of the centuries of history on his shoulders to challenge the world. Sengoku... Your World Government is afraid... afraid of the coming war that will engulf the world!!! I wasn't interested, but when someone finds that treasure... the world will be shaken to its core!! Somebody will find it...that day will certainly come.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2016 ---

We won't know how Luffy becomes Pirate King until it happens. This is Luffy's story, not Roger's and his life is not a manual. If there were ever any conventional methods to becoming Pirate King, it doesn't have to be Luffy's especially when manga protagonists usually go against the grain. kinda like how Naruto's journey to become Hokage was a lot different to the normal system of just rising up the ranks. The tests he should have taken, he never took, and the missions he should have went on, he never did..but my dude still ended up becoming the first Genin Hokage. My point is, Luffy doesn't have to follow the same current as everyone else especially since in his own words, he doesn't wonna conquer anything, he just wants to be the freest man on the sea. His achievements can be different to Roger's but will still be as great as, if not greater than his..enough to earn him the fame and respect to be called a Pirate King.

The goal to be Pirate King isn't abstract or open, but specific. The story opened up propelling people to search for One Piece, and it only makes sense for that consistency to follow through.

I'm not sure what exactly you're stating as alternate routes for being Pirate King, perhaps, you want to be a bit more specific rathan than ambiguously stating so?

As far as I know, this isn't Naruto; the story is different, the rules are different, the goals are different in nature.

The Manga specifically states how one becomes Pirate King.

This has nothing to do with going against the grain. It's not like the requirement to be Pirate King is based on stereotype (fitting a certain bill) like Hokage is, or maintaining airs or a particular image for political reasons.

If this were a goal to be Admiral, perhaps, image would be important and a need to play up to expectations and gain the public's approval is necessary; were that to be the case, perhaps you might have a point. Pirate King title just isn't of that nature, it's a title given to the biggest threat to the WG.

Weird to read what the Manga has said concerning how one becomes Pirate King, and then dismiss it, it's stated for a reason.

Roger just wanted to be the freest man like Luffy:

1. Yet, he was fighting Whitebeard's crew all the time?
2. He fought with Garp all the time.
3. He took on Shiki.

Luffy has also been portrayed as a type of Roger, someone with similar ideals and characteristics. So, even based on that, Luffy will follow in his foot-steps and surpass it. It however is going to be carried out by defeating great opposition + finding One Piece as the Manga clearly states.

 

[Freid]

I'm not sure what exactly you're stating as alternate routes for being Pirate King, perhaps, you want to be a bit more specific rathan than ambiguously stating so?

No because my name ain't Oda and neither is yours. Nobody here has an enlightened knowledge of One Piece, so what I'm telling you is to stop speaking in absolutes. Until Luffy becomes Pirate King, how he does so is all prediction. Roger didn't leave a stone tablet with instructions on how to be Pirate King. He was presumably the first, so there was never a criteria to follow to begin with. It was an arbitrary term that people started calling him after several achievements in his life. So what it took for people to recognize him as Pirate King doesn't have to be what it's gonna take for Luffy. Luffy's just playing it by ear and trying to reach the top of the pirate world in his own way. He doesn't care how Roger did it. It's a completely different sea to what it was back then, one which now contains a revolutionary army and a World Government that is apparently more powerful than it has ever been and are still yet to be defeated. So Luffy could easily earn his title after he goes to war with the WG, which would be a feat greater than anything Roger ever achieved. The standard now is higher than it ever was, and Luffy's journey is way too unpredictable to try and simply into a nice little formula.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

No because my name ain't Oda and neither is yours. Nobody here has an enlightened knowledge of One Piece, so what I'm telling you is to stop speaking in absolutes.

The Manga is there to be read, it's full of information (a lot which is pretty comprehensible), it doesn't require being Oda, it merely requires reading and understanding what's being said, and more so with the context provided.

Until Luffy becomes Pirate King, how he does so is all prediction.,

Not really. Pretty clearly stated out here how one becomes Pirate King; the very same way Roger did. This isn't prediction, it's merely echoing what the Manga has stated.

More so with the fact that we're told that whoever conquers the Grand Line will be King, pretty reminiscent of what the narrator's dialogue box stated concerning Roger.

Spoiler

Roger didn't leave a stone tablet with instructions on how to be Pirate King. He was presumably the first, so there was never a criteria to follow to begin with.

Actually, it says "Finally achieved what others had called impossible", "called" is past-tense, therefore, Roger wasn't the first to try to conquer the Grand Line, others had attempted before him and while he was around, he was just the first to pull it off. So, it was something many had tried to achieve, more so since the Poneglyph have existed for 900 years along with Raftel.

It was an arbitrary term that people started calling him after several achievements in his life. So what it took for people to recognise him as Pirate King doesn't have to be what it's gonna take for Luffy.

But it does say the exact same thing, and that's exactly what Luffy is trying to do. He aims to defeat all opposition and obtain the secret of the world at Raftel.

It's a completely different sea to what it was back then, one which now contains a revolutionary army and a World Government that is apparently more powerful than it has ever been and are still yet to be defeated.

Not a different sea, just stronger and far more Pirates. The rules and the workings haven't changed; power is still what rules, and that's what everyone is striving for, e.g. Big Mom vicariously marrying into the Germa 66 dynasty.

So Luffy could easily earn his title after he goes to war with the WG, which would be a feat greater than anything Roger ever achieved. The standard now is higher than it ever was, and Luffy's journey is way too unpredictable to try and simply into a nice little formula.

​

Whitebeard:That will has been passed down from long ago!! And in the future,,,someday, a man will appear, bearing the weight of the centuries of history on his shoulders to challenge the world. Sengoku... Your World Government is afraid... afraid of the coming war that will engulf the world!!! I wasn't interested, but when someone finds that treasure... the world will be shaken to its core!! Somebody will find it...that day will certainly come.

It still doesn't change the fact that he has to defeat the Yonko (opposing Admirals) and obtain One Piece to be Pirate King. There will be no war until One Piece is found as Whitebeard stated meaning he'd be Pirate King before the war. He'd need to be carrying the history of the world before he can fully comprehend why it's necessary to take out the WG (Celestial Dragons) and liberate the world (something Rayleigh stated that they'd learn through this journey).

 

[M3J]

Chinjao's words were weirdly stated. "Do you think you can surpass Roger" and "beat the admirals and yonkou" don't really mesh. Did he mean that Roger became PK without doing those things, and that if Luffy did that he would "surpass" Roger? If not, what does "surpass" mean if Luffy's only dream is to MATCH Roger by holding the same title?

Nothing implies Yonkou or their predecessor existed in Roger's time, and we don't know for sure if Roger beat the admirals. All we know is that he and Garp fought on at least one occasion, and both survived, and neither really mentioned anything about beating the other.

I don' tthink Luffy's dream is to match Roger. By surpassing Roger, I'm betting he'll bring about a war and create or usher in a revolution that gets rid of the government system, like his dad (probably) and potentially Roger wanted to do. Roger was able to bring about an age of pirates, but Luffy will likely overthrow the system.

But I think to become a pirate king, at least for Luffy, is to be free to sail wherever you want and go on any adventure. You don't necessarily need to be the strongest or beat every opponent that comes your way in power, unless Roger beat Shiki in a fight, but you do need to be able to survive. This can include a mix of power, luck, ,and much more. But for Luffy to become a pirate king, he has to be able to survive against any enemy that he comes across, which he should be able to by the end, along with the rest of his crew.

Nothing indicates Luffy has to beat the Yonkou or the admirals to become a pirate king, though.

 

[Freid]

The Manga is there to be read, it's full of information (a lot which is pretty comprehensible), it doesn't require being Oda, it merely requires reading and understanding what's being said, and more so with the context provided..

Nothing that was set in stone would be the topic of discussion.. and yet here we are. Welcome to literature. It's easy to extrapolate information to fit our own meanings.

All this evidence nonsense you keep fapping to is only in reference to Roger's journey since he was the first and only Pirate King. It wasn't a title given to him by the Queen of England or some shit. It was by word of mouth, and the only thing that's definite is that Luffy will achieve something as great as if not greater than Roger did.

One Piece is a world that's constantly shifting gears. Yonkous going to war with the WG, others with the revolutionary army. Enemies becoming allies, allies becoming enemies. Fujitora's trying to get rid of the Shichibukai, and Dragon's probably making his move soon. We've also been told how Luffy's allies are gonna make their marks on the world which will lead to a big event. We don't know what, why or when but it's potentially one of the several events that could take place to radically impact the course of Luffy's journey. The world is constantly changing as Luffy's journey will. It's not gonna be smooth sailing and it certainly won't go as Luffy planned.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Welcome to literature. It's easy to extrapolate information to fit our own meanings.

Literature also doesn't mean there's a lack of specific meaning.

For example, a cow has 2 eyes cannot be interpreted any other way other than the fact that this cow has 2 eyes.

It's not that hard to comprehend.

There's no "multiple meaning", the statements are truisms.

Pirate King is who conquers the Grand line, the answer is in the statement; nothing to extrapolate, it's a dead easy to understand statement, nothing complex to divine or read into.

I'm not even extrapolating evidence to fit my argument, merely repeating what is written in Black and White.

What is so difficult to understand here? What us there to "interpret"? Finally achieved what others called impossible is simply that. There aren't multiple ways to interpret it, just one.

One Piece is a world that's constantly shifting gears.

Fujitora's trying to get rid of the Shichibukai, and Dragon's probably making his move soon.

A story doesn't change, it just develops.

Situations may get more intense, but that doesn't change the objective.

And so what if Fujitora wants to get rid of the Shichibuaki System? how exactly does that change the fact that Conquering the Grand line is still what must be done to become Pirate King?

It's like 100m races consisting of just 8 sprinters, but then, being expanded to 14 sprinters, how exactly does it change the fact and objective, that coming first still crowns one as champion? Nothing, the same thing is with Pirate King.

Just more competition, the objective and goal are unchanged.

Even Chapter 653 reiterates exactly what was stated previously; nothing has changed, the sea is just far more contentious.

 

[Freid]

For example, a cow has 2 eyes cannot be interpreted any other way other than the fact that this cow has 2 eyes.

The difference between me and you is where you only see a cow with two eyes, I might see the possibility of blindness. Red herrings are nothing new in manga and One Piece is full of them. When we're given information, it's our responsibility as readers to decide whether it's exposition or whether we're intentionally being mislead. It's almost a bible sin to take everything in a manga at face value especially in One Piece.

The Shichibukai represent a third of the powers that rule the world and nothing that was said in the past foreshadowed the possibility of a world without them. Point is, enemies of today might not be enemies of tomorrow and things are changing even without Luffy's involvement. Some of the Yonkous are on the move, the outcome of Blackbeard's fight with the Revolutionary army is still unknown, and New World pirates are threatening the seats of the other Yonkou. I wouldn't be surprised if one is even successful, causing a shitload of chaos similar to the aftermath of WB's death. Even more so if it happened around the same time as Luffy defeating Kaidou which would possibly cause the biggest clusterfuck the world has even seen. The New World could collapse into a massive free for all. After all, a third of the world balance is already on the chopping blocks, so I wouldn't be surprised if all order ends up going to shit and Luffy comes out on top by defeating those in his way.

Whether that's how the manga develops or not, it's a possibility based on current events and is not limited by the opinions of side characters. But don't mind me, I'm just thinking a little. I'll get back to determining how many eyes cows have.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The difference between me and you is where you only see a cow with two eyes, I might see the possibility of blindness.

Lol, no.

You're making use of straw man argument.

What you just did here was distort what I said, and conjured a false point (a misrepresentation of my statement) to respond to like it was the point I was making; a most disingenuous form of debate.

Here is what I said, I'll quote it for you:

Literature also doesn't mean there's a lack of specific meaning.

For example, a cow has 2 eyes cannot be interpreted any other way other than the fact that this cow has 2 eyes.

This was concerning "literature", not a literal visual observation of cows which is what you had to mangle what I said into in order to give the semblance you were responding to a point I made (but in reality, didn't).

A deviation from the subject so to speak.

I mean, they keyword there is Literature followed by Example; should be obvious I was making a literary statement (an example of a literary nature) since the premise or topic is Literature.

If a statement says "A cow has 2 eyes", the statement is merely stating that. You can't read that and see something else, that'd be distorting what's said and being fallacious. Your statement is only valid where visual assessments are being made, not literary assessments; the focus here is literary which refers to text, words, sentences...

It's pretty clear you distorted this because you actually use the word "SEE" when the subject is about "READING".

The Shichibukai represent a third of the powers that rule the world and nothing that was said in the past foreshadowed the possibility of a world without them. Point is, enemies of today might not be enemies of tomorrow and things are changing even without Luffy's involvement.

Yes,,, and so what?

What does that change about the fact that whoever conquers the Grand Line will be Pirate King? Nothing.

Not even 40 chapters ago (major arc ago), we're still hearing the same iteration... who will conquer and rule the Grand Line? Nothing has changed, the goal remains the same, the objective just much more difficult - that is all.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

Red herrings are nothing new in manga and One Piece is full of them

Red Herrings do not relate to a plot or the goal of the main storyline, that's clearly a fallacy; they only relate to sub-plot and arcs, not the entirety of the story.

Your argument would be like stating that the requirement to be World Strongest Swordsman changes just because of story development, that'd be fallacious. Regardless of all the chaos and sub-plots, Zoro will nonetheless only become the Strongest Swordsman only by defeating Mihawk or the World's Strongest Swordsman; the same is with Pirate King (which Mihawk said is far more difficult).

Requirements don't change because of development within the story, all that changes is the difficulty which is the purpose of the Shichibukai, WG and all the other Pirates.

So your Red Herring point really holds no relevance, it only holds relevance within sub-stories. Reiju for example is the suspect for releasing Sanji, but that could be a Red Herring, for all we know, Ichiji secretly did so; Red Herrings certainly don't work the way you're making out.

 

[Freid]

You're making use of straw man argument.

Nah I'm making use of my brain, but I guess metaphors must be new to you. The point was to distinguish a person that doesn't think beyond the surface from someone that explores possibilities beyond it. Fun fact - I don't actually give a shit about how many eyes cows have. I know right, who would have thought?!?

Yes,,, and so what?

And so you should also use your brain and think of ways the recent events could develop into a situation where Luffy might not need to conquer the current establishment. Luffy will rise to the top but against who and at what odds is unknown. The pieces are only on the board but how they move is unpredictable.

A red herring is simply a literary device used to mislead the audience. They can be used however the author wants to use them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Nah I'm making use of my brain, but I guess metaphors must be new to you. The point was to distinguish a person that doesn't think beyond the surface from someone that explores possibilities beyond it. Fun fact - I don't actually give a shit about how many eyes cows have. I know right, who would have thought?!?

Nope, you're wrong.

A cow has 2 eyes is not a metaphor.

That's like saying a car has wheels is a metaphor.

Metaphors are comparisons made without the use of the word "like"; huge difference between truisms and metaphors.

A red herring is simply a literary device used to mislead the audience. They can be used however the author wants to use them.

It is a device, but it's not in use here; you're just making excuses.

It's like saying the entire purpose of One Piece is not to find One Piece or become Pirate King which is essentially what you're making out and that's obviously false.

I mean, you're trying to say that Oda is trying to:

1. Mislead people that the goal for Luffy is not to be Pirate King?
2. Mislead people that Pirate King doesn't conquer the Grand Line in order to become one?
3. Mislead people that the entire Manga's story so far is a lie?

That's rich to say the least.

What is your source? elaborate if you will.

 

[Freid]

A cow has 2 eyes is not a metaphor

Maybe because that's what you said and if we've learnt anything here today it's that you can't use metaphors. I literally explained what I said in my last post.

Metaphors are comparisons made without the use of the word "like"

At the most elementary level. A metaphor could also be anything used to represent something else.

It's like saying the entire purpose of One Piece is not to find One Piece or become Pirate King which is essentially what you're making out and that's obviously false

Nah what I'm saying is that there's a wealth of possibilities in One Piece and that we shouldn't limit our imagination when we don't know what the future will hold.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Maybe because that's what you said and if we've learnt anything here today it's that you can't use metaphors. I literally explained what I said in my last post.

Your explanation was superfluous.

Stating the obvious is by no means a metaphor.

Saying you or a cow has 2 legs is not a metaphor, metaphors juxtapose descriptions via comparison, where exactly is the comparison when someone states "a cow has 2 legs"? if anything, It seems you have no idea what a metaphor is.

Nah what I'm saying is that there's a wealth of possibilities in One Piece and that we shouldn't limit our imagination when we don't know what the future will hold.

What you mean to say thta there are a wealth of possibilities and plots leading up to the goal of becoming Pirate King, the way one becomes Pirate King doesn't change.

It seems you're struggling to identify the difference between an instruction:

• To become Pirate King, you have to conquer the Grand Line.

...and plot progression.

Regardless of all the wealth of possibilities, Pirate King will still be whoever conquers the Grand Line.

You can narrate the entirety of One Piece from the Chapter 1 till the present, your point will still be redundant, why? because the point is that the method as to how one becomes Pirate King is not affected by the plot, it's a fact.

That's why you can't refute what I've said because it really is just a reiteration of what the Manga has said.

You'd have to be in denial to state that what the Manga is stating is wrong.

 

[Freid]

Saying you or a cow has 2 legs is not a metaphor,

You're really bad at reading my dude. What I actually said was that where you might only see a cow with 2 eyes, I might consider the possibility of blindness.

To dumb it down for you, I implied that one of us thinks on the surface while the other would consider possibilities beyond what we're told or what we see. I explained this before.

But like I don't even give a shit about this. I casually said metaphors must be new to you in jest and you legit went on some spiel about what metaphors are . You like to go on tangents about random things that are besides the point.

Moral of the story, make better analogies instead of these shitty 7th grade ones about animals cause if I have to read another tale about your cow and how many eyes it has, I swear Ima drop...Bleach.

What you mean to say thta there are a wealth of possibilities and plots leading up to the goal of becoming Pirate King, the way one becomes Pirate King doesn't change.

Nah what I mean to say is what I said. Conquering or whatever it is you keep harping on about, the point is that whatever it took for Roger to become Pirate King in his day doesn't have to be what it'll take for Luffy. It's his story and nobody's past is gonna write his future.

So anyway I've ran my meter out with you. Your lack of imagination and inability to think ahead bores me. Cya.