Discussion What is a True Pirate King?

[Hannibal Psyche]

You're really bad at reading my dude. What I actually said was that where you might only see a cow with 2 eyes, I might consider the possibility of blindness.

Nope, that's just bad reading comprehension on your part.

A statement that says a cow has 2 eyes has no implications on anything else other than the simple point being made.

Metaphors give a contrast, not make points.

A statement such as..."The woman hissed" is a textbook metaphor. It contrasts a woman with a snake, hissing is characteristic of snakes (not Humans). What you make out to be a metaphor isn't, but an instruction. You're not making the distinction.

Nah what I mean to say is what I said. Conquering or whatever it is you keep harping on about, the point is that whatever it took for Roger to become Pirate King in his day doesn't have to be what it'll take for Luffy. It's his story and nobody's past is gonna write his future.

So anyway I've ran my meter out with you. Your lack of imagination and inability to think ahead bores me. Cya.

Yeah say that but the Manga says this for both Luffy and Roger:

Has nothing to do with lacking imagination, it's just accepting facts; amusing that you have to contest facts.

Your boredom is inherently with Oda funnily enough. :\

 

[ProGoddess]

This conversation has really gone out of line to the point of argument, hasn't it? You can state your opinion on the topic-concerned but please don't go beyond that to condemn others.

Kindly stay cordial in your discussion.

 

[M3J]

The only reason why Luffy would have enemies to beat is to establish his strength, so we know how strong he and his crew are. He does not need to beat anyone or be stronger than them to become a pirate king; as far as we know Roger never beat Shiki via power, he lucked out due to the storm. Still became pirate king.

Though, I suppose pirate king can have various meanings? But Luffy's meaning makes more sense, as having the freedom to roam and adventure wherever you want means you're powerful enough to deal with most enemies, feared, or something. There's no proof Yonkou existed during Roger's time, and I think it was said that shichibukai is a new conception, especially to counter the Yonkou. Though, if freedom was enough, then Whitebeard would have been considered a pirate king after Roger's death.

I'm guessing a pirate king would be someone who made it to Raftel and back, essentially conquering the Grand Line.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

He does not need to beat anyone or be stronger than them to become a pirate king; as far as we know Roger never beat Shiki via power, he lucked out due to the storm. Still became pirate king.

That wasn't a fight, that was a battle between ships.

And it is a requirement to be able to defeat, or else, Rayleigh would never have trained Luffy.

Also, the Manga explicitly states...

 

[M3J]

It is not a requirement to defeat them. Rayleigh trained Luffy so he doesn't get killed or lose in a fight if it comes to that as he did against the Pacifistas and in the war. Luffy doesn't have to fight Big Mom, Kaidou, Shanks, or Blackbeard, at least not before he reaches Raftel.

ANd the manga doesn't state that, Luffy does. Unless it's a fact that Roger went through them, it's not a requirement to beat the Yonkou or the Marines or whatever else to become a pirate king. Luffy has to though, because they stand in his way and want to stop him. He also states that to be a pirate king one must be able to roam the waters freely, which might not be possible with Yonkou and Marines after him.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It is not a requirement to defeat them. Rayleigh trained Luffy so he doesn't get killed or lose in a fight if it comes to that as he did against the Pacifistas and in the war. Luffy doesn't have to fight Big Mom, Kaidou, Shanks, or Blackbeard, at least not before he reaches Raftel.

It does, it is a requirement which is why it's stated.

Why else do you think Whitebeard only become known as the strongest only after Roger died? because Roger was superior to him. Even Shiki didn't believe he could be captured because he was overwhelmingly strong.

Spoiler

Even Pedro asks Luffy what he'll do after defeating Kaido? So, clearly, it is a requirement. Logically too, it makes no sense to defeat Kaido, but not Big Mom, it's absolutely necessary.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2016 ---

He also states that to be a pirate king one must be able to roam the waters freely, which might not be possible with Yonkou and Marines after him.

That's not relevant.

Roger too wanted to be the freest man, yet he fought with Whitebeard often.

Without defeating the strongest Pirates who are blockades in the voyage to Raftel, you can't be Pirate King.

 

[Core D. Roy]

This is a massive battle of semantics. Luffy's dream of PK requires absolute freedom. To have absolute freedom, he needs to be able to go and do whatever he pleases, which he can't do as long as there are pirates/marines that can stomp him. The need to defeat everyone is a consequence of his need for absolute freedom, not the other way around.

It's not like it's a video game and he needs to beat these bosses to beat the game and get the prize. He can do anything in any order, and honestly we have NO IDEA what is truly at Raftel, or even what Raftel is at this point. Finding the Onepiece seems to also be incidental to Luffy's "absolute freedom" way of life. Stronger pirates and the marines and WG will always get in the way of these goals, so he has to beat them out of necessity.

Most of Luffy's big fights have been reactive, he isn't actively hunting down stronger enemies. The only proactive exception I can think of in recent history is Doflamingo, and that was all Law's planning. Everything else has been save the nakama who is being hunted/captured by someone powerful.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

we have NO IDEA what is truly at Raftel, or even what Raftel is at this point.

I agree with the majority of what you've stated, but concerning Raftel, I disagree.

If we look at this Panel for example.

Spoiler

We're told that Oden travelled to Raftel with Roger & Rayleigh who learnt the secret of the world. Robin is well aware of this which is why she's recollected what Rayleigh had to say, and more so, while on Sky Island, she learnt that Roger took all the information pertaining to Poneglyphs to Raftel with him.

The entire reason behind Kaido's interrogation of Oden was to extract what Oden knew, and it's quite possible that Rayleigh might become a target too in future on another note.

So, we do know exactly what is at Raftel, and that is the entire history of the world (and the treasure which Roger left to draw adeventurers and Pirates).

 

[ProGoddess]

I think what it can mean is that we, readers, do not know exactly what Raftel is and what really lies there. We do know what is to be expected since we learn it from the various people in One Piece World. It's like I can learn about a place from someone, through the media, etc, which I have never been before. However if I finally reach that place, I will then truly experience what the place is all about. I guess @zetsu banned isn't totally inaccurate in that sense. But if we take the word "know" all the way down to its literal meaning, then it may seem incorrect. Perhaps we can include both "know" and "experience" in the knowledge of Raftel. In fact, the "secret of the world" is still a mystery to us which we are in wait of its reveal.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well, in the sense of experience, we certainly can't attest to that we know until after the Yonko arc (possibly).

To me, One Piece is just 1 big story, so I believe a lot of answers have been subtly revealed, and in some cases explicitly delivered to the readers. 800+ Chapters is a lot of Chapters to go by and still not have an idea, so, for most questions, I believe it's a matter of searching.

Regarding what we know concerning Raftel, the hints are pretty abundant in my eyes.

The entire plot focuses on Freedom (Luffy's motivation to be a Pirate); the lack of Freedom results in Slavery, Inequality and Prejudice.

In this quest for Freedom, he's come across these obstacles, and when he sees something he won't put up with being enforced on others, he can't help but stand up to it.

Luffy as a character is somewhat representative of the will of the people (their innate desire to fight back) against these confining practises, more so, he's like a de-facto advocate for the weak being that he's strong. The weak will capitulate, Luffy who is strong will fight back, and this strength of his even inspires the weak to fight; he's like a revolutionary as we see in:

• Dressrosa
• Sky Island
• Fishman Island

Besides the strong theme of Freedom, there's also another major aspect of the story that holds just as much importance, and that's the Poneglyph which is very central to the story. It's easy to get swept in by the fights and comedy, but we need to remember what the story is centred around, and that's ultimately the history of the world.

The WG wear a facade portraying themselves to be freedom fighters, upholders of justice and protectors maintaining order which they try to represent with their neat, clean and white ensemble. However, we know that is mere aesthetics, their foundation is built on lies and the organisation itself is terribly corrupt.

We even see the lengths the WG go to into suppressing the truth (decimation of the Ancient Kingdom and Ohara), we can be sure everything transpiring will culminate into resurfacing of this truth, and that will surely shake whatever foundations this WG is built on, and eventually result in a revolution.

Going back to what WB said, he said once it's found:

1. Someone will carry the history of the world on their shoulders.
2. and wage war on their shoulders.

For me, everything points to the history which has to be at Raftel based on the importance and significance it is given, and more so since Roger said that's where he had to deliver all the messages from the Ponegylph.

The entirety of the WG's actions have been to keep their deeds during the Void Century secret and even tried to suppress the desire to go after One Piece (which we know is at Raftel). The only thing the WG could be protecting by discouraging both these acts surely suggest of one thing, and that's the fact they reveal what they don't want known to the public which is the history - the suppression of this history is key to continuum of the power and control they have.

There's probably more to Raftel than just knowledge, but I'd assume that it's the critical significance of Raftel.

 

[Core D. Roy]

The hints are definitely abundant, but I'm saying the reality of the matter is a total mystery. We know that Raftel is connected to "the history of the world" and "Onepiece", but what is that history? Is it just going to be another poneglyph with a description of what happened? That'd be pretty anticlimactic, so my guess is that the "history of the world" is going to be a lot more shocking than just an essay written on a big stone. The same thing about "Onepiece". We know it's "Roger's treasure" and that it's tied to the title of Pirate King and is located at a place called Raftel, but the reality of the matter is that "treasure" can mean literally anything. Just like the "history" not being what we expect, the "treasure" isn't going to be a bucket full of gold.

Oda's given us a ton of third-party details, and the only character that could've/would've spoiled the mystery was shut up by Luffy. Oda's done a great job of keeping a mystery totally solid while still dropping the absolute vaguest of hints to keep the fans nibbling at the bait.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The hints are definitely abundant, but I'm saying the reality of the matter is a total mystery. We know that Raftel is connected to "the history of the world" and "Onepiece", but what is that history? Is it just going to be another poneglyph with a description of what happened? That'd be pretty anticlimactic, so my guess is that the "history of the world" is going to be a lot more shocking than just an essay written on a big stone. The same thing about "Onepiece". We know it's "Roger's treasure" and that it's tied to the title of Pirate King and is located at a place called Raftel, but the reality of the matter is that "treasure" can mean literally anything. Just like the "history" not being what we expect, the "treasure" isn't going to be a bucket full of gold.

Oda's given us a ton of third-party details, and the only character that could've/would've spoiled the mystery was shut up by Luffy. Oda's done a great job of keeping a mystery totally solid while still dropping the absolute vaguest of hints to keep the fans nibbling at the bait.

Then what is the significance of these panels?

Whitebeard:That will has been passed down from long ago!! And in the future,,,someday, a man will appear, bearing the weight of the centuries of history on his shoulders to challenge the world. Sengoku... Your World Government is afraid... afraid of the coming war that will engulf the world!!! I wasn't interested, but when someone finds that treasure... the world will be shaken to its core!! Somebody will find it...that day will certainly come.

Queen Otohime: It is further told that one will appear with the power to guide that Mermaid - to guide Shirahoshi, to show her the right path, and the correct way to user her ability. And it is said that when that time comes, a great change will come upon the world...!!!

These panels more or less tell us the end-game, a literal summary.

Just by understanding why the Ancient Kingdom was destroyed who we know are focal to the plot, we know what the history records.

If we assume Joy Boy was from the AK being that he wrote a message in the Ancient Language, then we know his ambitions is connected to the WG's reason for their destruction:
The WG see FIshman as slaves, inferior beings... yet, Joy Boy relates with them as equals and doesn't treat them any lesser. Just this alone gives us a contrast between someone who welcomes all regardless of race and strives for unity and freedom while the Tenryuubito are all about slavery, decadence, debauchery and power both financially and politically (the opposite). This is ultimately a struggle of ideals.

We can even go to Dressrosa, and we learn that the Tontattas were being treated as slaves "WITHIN" the Void Century being that it's dated 900 years ago (the beginning of the Century) while 800 years ago is the end of the Void Century, so we have a gigantic hint here that it's to do with how the WG have treated people and races as slaves.

It's pretty indicative what direction the story is heading in and gives a good idea of what exactly is going on and what to expect. The story is so comical and lax, I think it somehow overshadows the lore (which I believe to be the most important aspect of the story) which gives it the image that it's just another adventure story of some kid aiming to be Pirate King (which it is), but that is very much just the surface of the focal point of the story as there is quite a lot of politics involved in it.

On another note, it appeals to all readers; if one is interested in just gags, comics, comedy and action, it's great; if one is interested in Oda's views of politics and his perception of the world through the eyes of this characters, it's great; One Piece is pretty multi-layered.

 

[M3J]

It does, it is a requirement which is why it's stated.

Why else do you think Whitebeard only become known as the strongest only after Roger died? because Roger was superior to him. Even Shiki didn't believe he could be captured because he was overwhelmingly strong.

How does that picture prove it's a requirement? The only reason why Luffy has to fight them is because they want to stop him. If they reached an agreement where the Yonkou, Marines, and anyone else won't stand in Luffy's way, then Luffy would not have to fight them, he'd be free and be a pirate king as long as he makes it to Raftel and back. And as far as we know, Roger beat Shiki's overwhelmingly large fleet due to luck - a storm more than wiped out most of Shiki's fleet. while I do think Roger is pretty strong (Shiki's large fleet likely backs this up), nothing indicates he could or had to be stronger than anyone, not as long as he had luck on his side. Even though Luffy is weaker than Doflamingo, he still won because he had his allies helping him,

It could also be due to reputation. Would you say Kidd is stronger than Luffy because he has a higher bounty? I would not as manga states why his bounty is higher. Likewise, Roger may have won many of his important fights due to sheer luck, and people saw this as him being that strong instead.

Plus, there seems to have been no Yonkou for Roger to fight, just Shiki, Whitebeard, and the Marines. Whitebeard is debatable as they were friends, so maybe Whitebeard didn't care to go all out, or maybe Roger is not that kind of a person. But either way, nothing implies Luffy has to beat people to be recognized as a pirate king or be seen as the strongest, he either is choosing to do it or is forced to do it.

Spoiler

Even Pedro asks Luffy what he'll do after defeating Kaido? So, clearly, it is a requirement. Logically too, it makes no sense to defeat Kaido, but not Big Mom, it's absolutely necessary.

didn't Luffy make Kaidou his enemy? Plus, I'm sure Kaido will stand in Luffy's way of becoming a pirate king, just as the Marines, Big Mom, Blackbeard, and Shanks will. Likely the main reason he has to fight them, as I'm sure none of them want to cede power or look weak.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2016 ---

That's not relevant.

Roger too wanted to be the freest man, yet he fought with Whitebeard often.

Without defeating the strongest Pirates who are blockades in the voyage to Raftel, you can't be Pirate King.

Why did he fight with Whitebeard? For the fun of it? It seems like though Whitebeard say they were trying to kill each other, he and Roger were also friends.

That is true, as they stand in one's way. But, one doesn't need to be overwhelmingly powerful for that. nor is it really a necessity if there's no strong pirate, it's only made necessary to do so because the pirates will try to stand in the way of the pirate wanting to become the pirate king. Roger had to fight Shiki, Garp, and Whitebeard because they kept getting in his way, while Whitebeard didn't really care to become a pirate king.

This is a massive battle of semantics. Luffy's dream of PK requires absolute freedom. To have absolute freedom, he needs to be able to go and do whatever he pleases, which he can't do as long as there are pirates/marines that can stomp him. The need to defeat everyone is a consequence of his need for absolute freedom, not the other way around.

It's not like it's a video game and he needs to beat these bosses to beat the game and get the prize. He can do anything in any order, and honestly we have NO IDEA what is truly at Raftel, or even what Raftel is at this point. Finding the Onepiece seems to also be incidental to Luffy's "absolute freedom" way of life. Stronger pirates and the marines and WG will always get in the way of these goals, so he has to beat them out of necessity.

Most of Luffy's big fights have been reactive, he isn't actively hunting down stronger enemies. The only proactive exception I can think of in recent history is Doflamingo, and that was all Law's planning. Everything else has been save the nakama who is being hunted/captured by someone powerful.

exactly what I'm saying. Plus, it's not necessary for him to beat anyone seen as strong, but he'll be forced to eventually if they want to stand in his way.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

How does that picture prove it's a requirement? The only reason why Luffy has to fight them is because they want to stop him.

It is a requirement.

or else Luffy wouldn't have said a Pirate King can't be weak.

didn't Luffy make Kaidou his enemy? Plus, I'm sure Kaido will stand in Luffy's way of becoming a pirate king, just as the Marines, Big Mom, Blackbeard, and Shanks will. Likely the main reason he has to fight them, as I'm sure none of them want to cede power or look weak.

It's inevitable, he's going to have to fight the strongest because One Piece is desired by the strongest Pirates, it was stated in chapter 2.

Why did he fight with Whitebeard? For the fun of it? It seems like though Whitebeard say they were trying to kill each other, he and Roger were also friends.

Nope, they weren't friends, they were enemies. They just had respect for each other.

 

[Shobu_Yoruichi]

In simple words, someone acknowledged by everyone.

No matter good or bad, everyone has an opinion about it. He does not rule anything but can demand everything to anybody. He tries to attach his resolve to everything and nothing will recoil to attach him with it.

Those are some of the priviligies of being it, about the treasure, he has the most important one to mankind, knowledge.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Pirate King is not about being acknowledged by everyone, it's not a voting contest or some sort of electoral reward.

We don't see anywhere in the Manga where it states Roger became Pirate King after he was acknowledged by the people. We do however see that he was only Pirate King after doing something that was claimed to be impossible and that's obtaining the secret of the world. This title is attained by finding One Piece; without the act, you can't be Pirate King; the title is merely indicative of the highest achievement.

It's like running against Usain Bolt and out-sprinting him. After such a feat and maybe even breaking the sprinting record, it wouldn't matter if people acknowledged this person or not whether it be hate or disdain or love, the act is all that matters.

 

[Shobu_Yoruichi]

I know. Anyone saying he was in Raftel and holds more than 2 billion of berries can say he's Pirate King.
I was pointing my answer according to the question: 'What is a true Pirate King?'

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I know. Anyone saying he was in Raftel and holds more than 2 billion of berries can say he's Pirate King.
I was pointing my answer according to the question: 'What is a true Pirate King?'

There is no "true" Pirate King per se.

The title is not an idealistic title like that of say the pope who one would say should be wise, caring, intelligent, tactful, etc.

It's just someone who has achieved something regardless of the purpose.

Buggy could just as well be Pirate King (despite his cowardly and underhanded nature) assuming he was the one to find One Piece.

A title of this nature cannot be ideal, but the person holding the title can be.

We meet people of different professions every-day and they're all qualified to be recognised by that profession, however, there may be an individual now and then who we'd say is the "ideal" nurse, or waiter, or mechanic who is happy, friendly and professional at the same time; it's more or less elevating the standard of a profession, but this qualities aren't required, they're just idealistic and bonus qualities - one can still carry out the job or hold the title even if they were nonchalant and uncaring like that of the Pirate King title.

 

[Brandish μ]

The one thing that the citizens will always know is the outcome of battles.

Roger was notorious for fighting as we learn from Garp and Whiebeard who said that they fought all the time.

Getting acknowledged by Pirates can be done quite easily as far as I can see:

1. If Big Mom is defeated for example, Luffy will instantly get acknowledged and respected even by her subordinates (irregardless of hating him).
2. If Kaido were defeated, he'd get the same acknowledgement.

He'd not just be acknowledged by fellow Pirates, but by the WG and therefore, the world.

To be acknowledged is attained by achieving or pulling off something remarkable.

On top of defeating these strongest Pirates, to be known to have also obtained the World's Secret would also have the individual recognised as the ruler of the Ocean.

Sorry man, I thought I replied to this post.

I do agree that's a way Luffy can be acknowledged - through defeating Yonkou. I think it's an essential step. He needs to be revered/respected by his contemporaries in the same way WB was with Roger. Perhaps, it might involve Luffy taking down all the Yonkou... Idk.

But I'd think finding Raftel/the OP is also fairly important, since this was a feat of Rogers... so perhaps if Luffy found the OP perhaps people would speak of Luffy as the PK.

 

[Shobu_Yoruichi]

There is no "true" Pirate King per se.

The title is not an idealistic title like that of say the pope who one would say should be wise, caring, intelligent, tactful, etc.

It's just someone who has achieved something regardless of the purpose.

Buggy could just as well be Pirate King (despite his cowardly and underhanded nature) assuming he was the one to find One Piece.

A title of this nature cannot be ideal, but the person holding the title can be.

We meet people of different professions every-day and they're all qualified to be recognised by that profession, however, there may be an individual now and then who we'd say is the "ideal" nurse, or waiter, or mechanic who is happy, friendly and professional at the same time; it's more or less elevating the standard of a profession, but this qualities aren't required, they're just idealistic and bonus qualities - one can still carry out the job or hold the title even if they were nonchalant and uncaring like that of the Pirate King title.

Well...

Spoiler

I think Edward disagrees. He, without a doubt, was talking in this picture about the people of D. and it's will... but in the full speech, denotes that Roger waits for someone qualified to find something, and Newgate claims that Teach isn't that one.

Anyways, i liked your example, i began to think how companies try to contract only that kind of ideal people, i've fallen with that, my previous one thought i wasn't qualified