Games The Final Fantasy Thread!

shahdan

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Because he is a drag to watch... He was the cliche you mentioned but that is because of the damage his personality suffered due to the plot. After he gets past that he turns into an actual human being who cares for his friends. And by the time of the compilation he is a whinny idiot who does his best to alienate his friends (and fans). He is basically an emo at that stage....

The plot has been dragging since chapter one... I see no sign of improvement. Well, I have warmed up a bit to lightning but only barely, kinda rooting for her to have some other emotion other than unyielding rage at unclear plot elements (and my dislike for the other characters has increased significantly more than what I have warmed up to lightning). She is still a vastly superior character than compilation cloud with her one emotion though. The terminology is only getting worst, at this point it seems like they are just throwing darts at syllables in a wall and filling blanks left in the script with whatever comes up. Any sentence in the game where there are more than two made up words sounds like straight up gibberish....

I mean, look at this damn thing:


And it is far from the worst....
The guy is suffering from an incurable disease. It makes sense for him to be that way.

She's a one-note character, haha. Can't say I agree about Cloud here. But to each their own. She's not even a character to be honest. This was explained in the first two chapters. You weren't that bored that you didn't pay attention did you? I am sure you have missed something, haha.

The plot ... in my opinion? It's not going to get better. I don't want to spoil anything, but it was quite boring for me.
 

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The guy is suffering from an incurable disease. It makes sense for him to be that way.

She's a one-note character, haha. Can't say I agree about Cloud here. But to each their own. She's not even a character to be honest. This was explained in the first two chapters. You weren't that bored that you didn't pay attention did you? I am sure you have missed something, haha.

The plot ... in my opinion? It's not going to get better. I don't want to spoil anything, but it was quite boring for me.
Half the planet was suffering from an incurable disease... He was the one we saw being an asshole about it even though he was the superhuman that had saved the world, the rest of humanity had to deal with it while being average.

I am not sure of what you are talking about so I might have indeed missed something. What do you mean?
 

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There is new interview with Tabata in GameInformer.

It's kind of strange. I feel like he needs to just stop talking and let Square Enix's PR people do their jobs. Just not sure he's doing the franchise, the company, or himself any favors lately.
 

kkck

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It is weird. Well, I think it makes sense that the brand is seen like that if we consider X was just an OK final fantasy (excellent game but just ok by final fantasy standards), XII was rather lackluster and both MMOs have somewhat failed (even though FF should be MMO fodder considering everything). It is true that FFVII was the last FF to give something new technology wise but there are other games which have received more critical acclaim overall. At this point I don't know what they would be aiming to do technology wise. At this point more graphics or requiring more processing power is sort of redundant IMO. At this point a proper technological advancement for a game would be VR (which is expiring as innovation soon because things are innovative only once) peripherals... say, playing the game with a sword. Personally I think they focus too much on cutscenes and everything related to that. Is there a need for 7 hours worth of cutscenes in a game? Those are 7 hours I am not actually playing, the opposite of what I want when playing a game. At least XIII has tolerable voice acting but XII was barely adequate and X is intolerable without muting.
 

shahdan

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Half the planet was suffering from an incurable disease... He was the one we saw being an asshole about it even though he was the superhuman that had saved the world, the rest of humanity had to deal with it while being average.

I am not sure of what you are talking about so I might have indeed missed something. What do you mean?
Oh, come on! People do become assholes as well. And we never saw half the planet showing any kind of emotions. So, you wouldn't know whether they were assholes or not. I don't get these "happy go lucky" morons most media promotes. It's bad writing, period. That is all I am suggesting. And honestly, I am so glad he alienated Tifa. She's so immature and clingy. One of the worst written characters to come out of FF. Loz steamrolling her was even better!

The terms were explained very early on in the game. You obviously missed that somehow.
 

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Oh, come on! People do become assholes as well. And we never saw half the planet showing any kind of emotions. So, you wouldn't know whether they were assholes or not. I don't get these "happy go lucky" morons most media promotes. It's bad writing, period. That is all I am suggesting. And honestly, I am so glad he alienated Tifa. She's so immature and clingy. One of the worst written characters to come out of FF. Loz steamrolling her was even better!

The terms were explained very early on in the game. You obviously missed that somehow.
That is why post specifically says "he was the one we saw being an asshole". Sure, there might have been other people around being assholes about the whole thing but we didn't see them nor do they have relevance to the story. And the people we did see with the geostigma, kids, seemed to be dealing with geostigma a bit better than cloud at least. Except that the children where not superhuman. So what we get in FF as a whole regarding cloud is cloud with a fake personality, then he deals with his shit and somewhat literally finds himself and turns out to actually be an all right guy who cares for his friends and then by AC we see almost absolutely nothing of that guy and instead we get a one dimensional emo with a generic existential crisis who handles a disease worst than the orphans in the film.
 

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Dumping a truckload of angst on a character like Cloud entirely misses the point of Final Fantasy VII.

Cloud's journey from an arrogant, gruff, but somewhat likable hero through the realization that he was a failure who convinced himself he was the hero he wanted to be then finally to accept his own identity and save the world as himself is part of the core of why people like me liked game as much as we did.

Advent Children replaced that character with a shallow caricature of self pity and self doubt so that he undergo a contrived and nonsensical spiritual awakening in the third act.
 

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Dumping a truckload of angst on a character like Cloud entirely misses the point of Final Fantasy VII.

Cloud's journey from an arrogant, gruff, but somewhat likable hero through the realization that he was a failure who convinced himself he was the hero he wanted to be then finally to accept his own identity and save the world as himself is part of the core of why people like me liked game as much as we did.

Advent Children replaced that character with a shallow caricature of self pity and self doubt so that he undergo a contrived and nonsensical spiritual awakening in the third act.
I always wondered how much of a failure he was. Did he fail to join soldier altogether or did he simply not join yet? I think this was addressed on the compilation games but not on FFVII per say...

To add to that, the spiritual awakening simply left cloud where he was at the end of FFVII... So... literally no character development for him. The only cool thing about cloud in the movie is the fusion sword which I believe to be objectively awesome. Of course, it won't be a thing in this game. Well, with any luck it is added as a bonus feature outside the actual story-line...
 

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That is why post specifically says "he was the one we saw being an asshole". Sure, there might have been other people around being assholes about the whole thing but we didn't see them nor do they have relevance to the story. And the people we did see with the geostigma, kids, seemed to be dealing with geostigma a bit better than cloud at least. Except that the children where not superhuman. So what we get in FF as a whole regarding cloud is cloud with a fake personality, then he deals with his shit and somewhat literally finds himself and turns out to actually be an all right guy who cares for his friends and then by AC we see almost absolutely nothing of that guy and instead we get a one dimensional emo with a generic existential crisis who handles a disease worst than the orphans in the film.
Being an asshole or not has nothing to do with good or bad writing. I just want to throw this out there right now. So, people deal differently with different situations. You want everyone to react the same way to the same situation? Who cares what the children did, man. My point still remains: why does it matter if he was an asshole? Does a guy HAVE to care for his friends to be a good character? Absolutely not. Unless we are not looking as some preachy moralistic piece of nauseating fiction, then none of this matters.

Cloud was a one-dimensional anime trope in FFVII. They added a different dimension to his character. He couldn't deal with the disease. Perfectly natural. Someone else did? Big deal. Not everyone deals with the same disease or situation the same way. People are different. You are putting him down because he doesn't fit the "oh fuck it, man ... I am dying, but I don't give no two fucks ... I am so badass and fucking awesome," mold. That is terrible writing, and I for one, am fucking tired of such characters.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Dumping a truckload of angst on a character like Cloud entirely misses the point of Final Fantasy VII.

Cloud's journey from an arrogant, gruff, but somewhat likable hero through the realization that he was a failure who convinced himself he was the hero he wanted to be then finally to accept his own identity and save the world as himself is part of the core of why people like me liked game as much as we did.

Advent Children replaced that character with a shallow caricature of self pity and self doubt so that he undergo a contrived and nonsensical spiritual awakening in the third act.
Likeable has nothing to do with writing. In fact, the more likable a character is, the less flaws he has ... and more atrociously written he is. Caricature? Dude, that is not what caricature means. The fact that they examined self-pity and self-doubt alone means that he isn't.

Again, anyone liking the character doesn't hold much of any merit in regards to Cloud as a character himself. I don't like Danzo. Does that mean he's a badly written character? No. People need to be mature about it and separate their likeness and character merits. This is the reason why games suffer and we have caricatures like Yuna, Tifa, Solid Snake, Big Boss, Chris Redfield (he was better in 6th though), Ada Wong (bearable in 6th), Leon S. Kennedy, Lulu etc.
 

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Likeable has nothing to do with writing. In fact, the more likable a character is, the less flaws he has ... and more atrociously written he is. Caricature? Dude, that is not what caricature means. The fact that they examined self-pity and self-doubt alone means that he isn't.

Again, anyone liking the character doesn't hold much of any merit in regards to Cloud as a character himself. I don't like Danzo. Does that mean he's a badly written character? No. People need to be mature about it and separate their likeness and character merits. This is the reason why games suffer and we have caricatures like Yuna, Tifa, Solid Snake, Big Boss, Chris Redfield (he was better in 6th though), Ada Wong (bearable in 6th), Leon S. Kennedy, Lulu etc.
Could not disagree more.

It's funny how you say I don't know what caricature means and them proceed to use it incorrectly. A caricature to present something in an excessively exaggerate way for effect, look it up if you don't believe me. Which is exactly what Advent Children's Cloud is, much the same way Sasuke is in latter half of Naruto. He's a simplified borderline childish representation of emotion who to the point that it undermines his reliability or believably as a character. Which in Clouds case is particularly bad because the game version is an emotionally rich character that explores a whole host of emotions good and bad.

There are plenty of good dark characters out there and plenty of good lighter ones. They may cater to different tastes but it's both can be done extremely well.

Joel from the Last of Us jumps to mind as an example of a great darker one. He's well developed character that by the end o the game you almost hate but he's still complex enough to fascinate.

Harry Potter from the Harry Potter series is an example of a great light one. He's a well thought out nuanced character that makes people want to root for him.
 

kkck

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Being an asshole or not has nothing to do with good or bad writing. I just want to throw this out there right now. So, people deal differently with different situations. You want everyone to react the same way to the same situation? Who cares what the children did, man. My point still remains: why does it matter if he was an asshole? Does a guy HAVE to care for his friends to be a good character? Absolutely not. Unless we are not looking as some preachy moralistic piece of nauseating fiction, then none of this matters.

Cloud was a one-dimensional anime trope in FFVII. They added a different dimension to his character. He couldn't deal with the disease. Perfectly natural. Someone else did? Big deal. Not everyone deals with the same disease or situation the same way. People are different. You are putting him down because he doesn't fit the "oh fuck it, man ... I am dying, but I don't give no two fucks ... I am so badass and fucking awesome," mold. That is terrible writing, and I for one, am fucking tired of such characters.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---


Likeable has nothing to do with writing. In fact, the more likable a character is, the less flaws he has ... and more atrociously written he is. Caricature? Dude, that is not what caricature means. The fact that they examined self-pity and self-doubt alone means that he isn't.

Again, anyone liking the character doesn't hold much of any merit in regards to Cloud as a character himself. I don't like Danzo. Does that mean he's a badly written character? No. People need to be mature about it and separate their likeness and character merits. This is the reason why games suffer and we have caricatures like Yuna, Tifa, Solid Snake, Big Boss, Chris Redfield (he was better in 6th though), Ada Wong (bearable in 6th), Leon S. Kennedy, Lulu etc.
Sure, a character can be an asshole and be a good character but that is not the case with cloud in this specific situation. In FFVII cloud was for the most part of the game basically brainwashed by mako. It was not his real self, he was shown simply as he thought what a soldier would be like. And then he figures his shit out and becomes his real self and as Jammin says, saves the world as himself. What ends up happening with cloud ends up simply not making a shred of sense. And what the children did is crucially important because it is the only contrast the movie presents. What the movie effectively shows is cloud being a total bitch compared to freaking 6 year old kids (or whatever age they were). Sure, there are many ways to develop a character, that is objectively true. However with cloud what we got was ridiculous. In FFVII he put himself together, in AC he didn't know who he was. In VII he cared about his team mates, in AC he literally wouldn't take their calls. In FVII he was the guy who took on freaking sephiroth, in AC he spends most of his time not getting over himself. And the payoff of all of that is him ending up as he was at the end of FFVII. How are you even defending this if the whole thing ended up with him being in a way which you specifically dislike?

Since when is a likeable character specifically flawless? if anything it's the opposite that is true, likeable characters tend to be flawed, make mistakes. And what is up with your definition of a caricature? It does not really add up.

In cloud's case, yes, it does. In FVII we see him go from a brainwashed asshole to actual human being. In AC he starts out a total bitch and then goes to actual human being, the exact endpoint of FFVII. It' completely redundant. How is this not specifically bad writing? Character development is not a strong point in AC. I am not sure of why you hate tifa so much. I agree with yuna but my opinion is probably biassed because her awful voice acting made me hate absolutely every bit of the character. If I could kill anyone in that game, it would be her. Now that I think about it X is the game where I would kill the most characters in game if possible (because fuck wacka and kimarih. And tidus).
 

shahdan

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Could not disagree more.

It's funny how you say I don't know what caricature means and them proceed to use it incorrectly. A caricature to present something in an excessively exaggerate way for effect, look it up if you don't believe me. Which is exactly what Advent Children's Cloud is, much the same way Sasuke is in latter half of Naruto. He's a simplified borderline childish representation of emotion who to the point that it undermines his reliability or believably as a character. Which in Clouds case is particularly bad because the game version is an emotionally rich character that explores a whole host of emotions good and bad.

There are plenty of good dark characters out there and plenty of good lighter ones. They may cater to different tastes but it's both can be done extremely well.

Joel from the Last of Us jumps to mind as an example of a great darker one. He's well developed character that by the end o the game you almost hate but he's still complex enough to fascinate.

Harry Potter from the Harry Potter series is an example of a great light one. He's a well thought out nuanced character that makes people want to root for him.
The term Caricature mostly centers on grotesque and lampoon. Any kind of hyperbolic Exaggeration for some kind of satire or social commentary or for genre conventions in a manner that lacks depth. For instance, Charles Dickens’ characters are caricatures. I know what I am talking about.

So, tell me … how does Cloud in AC fill this mold? I am sorry … what? Sasuke is nowhere near the term you are putting him under. I would like you to actually prove this, rather than use terms just because you happen to feel like it.

None of the complaints you have presented are “exaggerated.” You are blowing things out of proportion and want the character to fit your mold. It’s a simple matter of a complete lack of objectivity on your part.

Define character development. Better yet, define well-developed as Joel from TLOU is as much of a media gimmick as FFVII is as an anime trope. I see no difference. HarryPotter is complex? I for the life of me cannot imagine what would make you say that. Nuanced in what sense? Complex in what sense? Care to delineate those terms?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Sure, a character can be an asshole and be a good character but that is not the case with cloud in this specific situation. In FFVII cloud was for the most part of the game basically brainwashed by mako. It was not his real self, he was shown simply as he thought what a soldier would be like. And then he figures his shit out and becomes his real self and as Jammin says, saves the world as himself. What ends up happening with cloud ends up simply not making a shred of sense. And what the children did is crucially important because it is the only contrast the movie presents. What the movie effectively shows is cloud being a total bitch compared to freaking 6 year old kids (or whatever age they were). Sure, there are many ways to develop a character, that is objectively true. However with cloud what we got was ridiculous. In FFVII he put himself together, in AC he didn't know who he was. In VII he cared about his team mates, in AC he literally wouldn't take their calls. In FVII he was the guy who took on freaking sephiroth, in AC he spends most of his time not getting over himself. And the payoff of all of that is him ending up as he was at the end of FFVII. How are you even defending this if the whole thing ended up with him being in a way which you specifically dislike?
Since when is a likeable character specifically flawless? if anything it's the opposite that is true, likeable characters tend to be flawed, make mistakes. And what is up with your definition of a caricature? It does not really add up.
In cloud's case, yes, it does. In FVII we see him go from a brainwashed asshole to actual human being. In AC he starts out a total bitch and then goes to actual human being, the exact endpoint of FFVII. It' completely redundant. How is this not specifically bad writing? Character development is not a strong point in AC. I am not sure of why you hate tifa so much. I agree with yuna but my opinion is probably biassed because her awful voice acting made me hate absolutely every bit of the character. If I could kill anyone in that game, it would be her. Now that I think about it X is the game where I would kill the most characters in game if possible (because fuck wacka and kimarih. And tidus).

We are talking about AC only here. I remember VII. Cloud was nothing special. Just a typical anime hero with very subtle flaws that hardly ever opened any venues for a decent plot. But then again, as if any FF game as ever been even remotely decent in penning.

People behave differently. Again, you are simply not liking him because you want him to behave in a certain way. I have seen many people turn into complete assholes over minor diseases. When they subside, they are normal. Kids not showing anything can also be amounted to the fact that they have little idea about the concept of death. It’s easier from outside the glass looking in. Have you ever suffered from a fatal disease that would surely kill you? How would you behave? It’s very easy making rash judgments that someone should have behaved in that way, when “facing death” is a foreign concept to you. The writer showed one man behaving differently. You are going to begrudge him for that; that that person did this, so why didn’t he behave in that manner? That makes no sense.

You do realize that when a character “regresses” and “loses control” or “devolves” that is also character development, right? Pulling oneself together and becoming positive person or Mr. Establishment isn’t character development. Not even close. Character development works on dynamism. As long as the character is dynamic and keeps moving away from his previous persona (yes, it would be persona here), then he is developing. Development in plot and character or narrative has absolutely no relationship to whatever you said. And basically admitted that you find him terrible because you happen to dislike it.

It’s a literary fact that most likable characters are heroes who have very petty flaws. I wouldn’t even call them “realistic imitations;” they are poorly written flat characters. And no human being is flat.

And again, you are off to your personal grievances again, being completely subjective and throwing a shade on a character that it didn’t go your way. It must be shocking to you, but not all characters go your way. Here is a kicker: I didn’t find him to be asshole at all. I didn’t see a thing of what you keep throwing over him. Now what? Tifa? Tell me one good thing about her that even makes her a character, let alone a bearable one. She's a piece of trash from every angle.

Wakkah and Tidus were probably the most realistic heroic characters SE has ever put out (VII onwards) with the exception of Gabranth and Vayne from FF XII. But then again, these two have more character in their pinky finger than VII’s whole cast combined.
 

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We are talking about AC only here. I remember VII. Cloud was nothing special. Just a typical anime hero with very subtle flaws that hardly ever opened any venues for a decent plot. But then again, as if any FF game as ever been even remotely decent in penning.

People behave differently. Again, you are simply not liking him because you want him to behave in a certain way. I have seen many people turn into complete assholes over minor diseases. When they subside, they are normal. Kids not showing anything can also be amounted to the fact that they have little idea about the concept of death. It’s easier from outside the glass looking in. Have you ever suffered from a fatal disease that would surely kill you? How would you behave? It’s very easy making rash judgments that someone should have behaved in that way, when “facing death” is a foreign concept to you. The writer showed one man behaving differently. You are going to begrudge him for that; that that person did this, so why didn’t he behave in that manner? That makes no sense.

You do realize that when a character “regresses” and “loses control” or “devolves” that is also character development, right? Pulling oneself together and becoming positive person or Mr. Establishment isn’t character development. Not even close. Character development works on dynamism. As long as the character is dynamic and keeps moving away from his previous persona (yes, it would be persona here), then he is developing. Development in plot and character or narrative has absolutely no relationship to whatever you said. And basically admitted that you find him terrible because you happen to dislike it.

It’s a literary fact that most likable characters are heroes who have very petty flaws. I wouldn’t even call them “realistic imitations;” they are poorly written flat characters. And no human being is flat.

And again, you are off to your personal grievances again, being completely subjective and throwing a shade on a character that it didn’t go your way. It must be shocking to you, but not all characters go your way. Here is a kicker: I didn’t find him to be asshole at all. I didn’t see a thing of what you keep throwing over him. Now what? Tifa? Tell me one good thing about her that even makes her a character, let alone a bearable one. She's a piece of trash from every angle.

Wakkah and Tidus were probably the most realistic heroic characters SE has ever put out (VII onwards) with the exception of Gabranth and Vayne from FF XII. But then again, these two have more character in their pinky finger than VII’s whole cast combined.
What happened in AC was basically the same thing that happens in every dumb sequel ever... They undo every single shred of character development which happened in the original material and the sequel ends with the character being the same as he was at the end of the original material. That is not character development, that is a story going in circles and without any real direction or payoff. And this isn't really about me.. it is not like I am the only FFVII who thinks AC wasn't any good (at least as far as cloud goes, I did enjoy the fight scenes). I haven't brought up tifa, that was you. I didn't like what they did with her in AC either. In the original game she has her role in the story and is mostly a competent fighter who does her share. In AC she gets one good fight and then takes backseat to cloud fighting sephiroth. In fact, everyone did... What the hell was that about? Are we supposed to believe they took on sephiroth's monstrous forms in the original game but then it was not only ok, it was necessary, for cloud to fight the guy alone? Heck, it even looked like the reason they let cloud fight alone was specifically because cloud was a total bitch through the movie. As if he needed that to move on... Of course, in the original game cloud did have his final confrontation with sephiroth but at least it was literally impossible for cloud to get help. In AC they simply thought cloud needed that for freaking closure. It's as if cloud was being a whiny bitch and they ran out of snickers so they let him fight it out....
 
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Here is the trailer for Kingsglaive:
 

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Ok, I have advanced a decent bit in FFXIII now. This is what I find:

The only characters I wouldn't kill if given the chance are lightning and fang. I sort of cheered on sasz when he was about to kill himself. I thought it was extremely unlikely he would do it but I was willing to accept it even if it is not something I had a choice on. The guy is just a drag, it's either him being the wacky comedic relieve or lamenting his child (which is reasonable yet annoying because the alternative is him being freaking comedic relieve). The worstpart is that he is the only one with haste, so I have no choice but to use him.... Vanille is about as annoying as she was at the start. Marginally less so maybe. Hope is somewhat tolerable, safe for him having a girl's name. Unless he is a girl? I still wish snow would just die. Rather than growing out of his idiocy the others seem to have embraced it.

As far as the game goes, if you ignore the lackluster plot and the now no longer confusing yet still objectively stupid terminology it is still reasonably fun to play. I am in chapter 11 and enjoyed the chance to not do the plot and just roam around doing missions. You know how awful the story is when not doing it is the fun part. I was worried I might overlevel but seeing that the story is not getting better it's good to be able to advance faster. With any luck I finish the story soon and get to do the fun stuff. I am disappointed money is so hard to come by and options to get any are just outright tedious, I want to finish upgrading weapons. Maybe upgrading them will make the game too easy but in turn it seems objectively stupid that you are not able to get them until after the plot is over. Nothing as annoying as a weapon you don't really get to use in the game...

The sad part is my team.... I use lightning, sazs and vanille. I pick lightning over fang simply because lightning has medic... Sazs because he has haste and is a ravager can function as a commando. Basically he is an excellent character in a team. It's too bad the story made me hate him. Vanille because her saboteour role is surprisingly useful along with having healing and ravager. I guess eventually I might be able to get a team which I am comfortable with that does not include sasz or vanille but I am going to need at least one more character with haste for that... Funny how FFX, XII and XIII have gotten me to actively dislike characters... To put it in perspective, cait sith I just ignored so hard I never even knew what his abilities were, I just didn't care enough about the character to use at all. But I didn't actively hate the character, I just didn't use it. In FFX I actively hated fucking wacka, in XII I actively disliked the "main" character and his love interest (don't remember their names). It's like characters get increasingly annoying proportionally to graphic improvement.
 
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What happened in AC was basically the same thing that happens in every dumb sequel ever... They undo every single shred of character development which happened in the original material and the sequel ends with the character being the same as he was at the end of the original material. That is not character development, that is a story going in circles and without any real direction or payoff. And this isn't really about me.. it is not like I am the only FFVII who thinks AC wasn't any good (at least as far as cloud goes, I did enjoy the fight scenes). I haven't brought up tifa, that was you. I didn't like what they did with her in AC either. In the original game she has her role in the story and is mostly a competent fighter who does her share. In AC she gets one good fight and then takes backseat to cloud fighting sephiroth. In fact, everyone did... What the hell was that about? Are we supposed to believe they took on sephiroth's monstrous forms in the original game but then it was not only ok, it was necessary, for cloud to fight the guy alone? Heck, it even looked like the reason they let cloud fight alone was specifically because cloud was a total bitch through the movie. As if he needed that to move on... Of course, in the original game cloud did have his final confrontation with sephiroth but at least it was literally impossible for cloud to get help. In AC they simply thought cloud needed that for freaking closure. It's as if cloud was being a whiny bitch and they ran out of snickers so they let him fight it out....
Undo Character development? You want characters to remain flat? As anything that carries over from the previous plot would be obsolete in the new narrative scheme. Each plot should have its own direction, characters their own goals and sub goals. The fact that Cloud has new main and sub goals alone renders this discussion pointless, as that means he isn't flat and is developing within the constraints of the new plotline; the way it should be.

Tifa is one of the main characters, yet, you seem to unload all the negativity on Cloud. When ... can we even call this "walking pair of breasts" a character? I wouldn't even call her a caricature. She is, really, THAT bad. Who else has any decent character? Vincent? God forbid it, Barret and Yuffie ... or God Almighty, Aries - or however you spell her or that happy go lucky Hero, Zack? All of these characters are borderline terrible to absolute literary abortions. You don't seem to be concerned about them at all. Why is the only character, who actually showed development within the plot, at the end of your criticism? That is the reason why I brought Tifa up.

Again, why is Cloud a bitch? If it going to fall back on "alienating people" or whatever, then I don't know what to say here as it's a very very ... very "subjective" argument, and has no bearing on his characterization. Sephiroth was at one-third of his power ... I don't know what you are even talking about anymore.
 

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Undo Character development? You want characters to remain flat? As anything that carries over from the previous plot would be obsolete in the new narrative scheme. Each plot should have its own direction, characters their own goals and sub goals. The fact that Cloud has new main and sub goals alone renders this discussion pointless, as that means he isn't flat and is developing within the constraints of the new plotline; the way it should be.

Tifa is one of the main characters, yet, you seem to unload all the negativity on Cloud. When ... can we even call this "walking pair of breasts" a character? I wouldn't even call her a caricature. She is, really, THAT bad. Who else has any decent character? Vincent? God forbid it, Barret and Yuffie ... or God Almighty, Aries - or however you spell her or that happy go lucky Hero, Zack? All of these characters are borderline terrible to absolute literary abortions. You don't seem to be concerned about them at all. Why is the only character, who actually showed development within the plot, at the end of your criticism? That is the reason why I brought Tifa up.

Again, why is Cloud a bitch? If it going to fall back on "alienating people" or whatever, then I don't know what to say here as it's a very very ... very "subjective" argument, and has no bearing on his characterization. Sephiroth was at one-third of his power ... I don't know what you are even talking about anymore.
So let me see if I have all this right. You apparently didn't want to see a continuation of the character development from FFVII. You hate Tifa. You hate Vincent. You hate Barret. You hate Yuffie. You hate Aris. You hate Zack. Your a huge fan of emo Cloud and have no issue with him acting completely unlike his previous self from the game.

Hmmm... what's left? You must be HUGE Red XIII and Cait Sith fan. I mean, at this point it's starting to seem like you hate Final Fantasy VII isn't it?
 

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Undo Character development? You want characters to remain flat? As anything that carries over from the previous plot would be obsolete in the new narrative scheme. Each plot should have its own direction, characters their own goals and sub goals. The fact that Cloud has new main and sub goals alone renders this discussion pointless, as that means he isn't flat and is developing within the constraints of the new plotline; the way it should be.

Tifa is one of the main characters, yet, you seem to unload all the negativity on Cloud. When ... can we even call this "walking pair of breasts" a character? I wouldn't even call her a caricature. She is, really, THAT bad. Who else has any decent character? Vincent? God forbid it, Barret and Yuffie ... or God Almighty, Aries - or however you spell her or that happy go lucky Hero, Zack? All of these characters are borderline terrible to absolute literary abortions. You don't seem to be concerned about them at all. Why is the only character, who actually showed development within the plot, at the end of your criticism? That is the reason why I brought Tifa up.

Again, why is Cloud a bitch? If it going to fall back on "alienating people" or whatever, then I don't know what to say here as it's a very very ... very "subjective" argument, and has no bearing on his characterization. Sephiroth was at one-third of his power ... I don't know what you are even talking about anymore.
What are you talking about? My complain is basically that cloud was flat through the whole thing. My complain is basically that in AC cloud was made a total bitch and by the end of it he ended up basically the same as he was at the end of VII. And what goals are you even talking about?

None of those guys are the issue though. What they did to cloud would have been the equivalent of making tifa into an emo who cuts herself over cloud not calling her, making vincent into twilight style vampire, barret even wackier terrorist with a bigger fro who realizes an 8 year old shouldn't be running a bar, yuffie into shinra's CEO and cid into a guy who just brings everyone down. Only for tifa to then decide she kicks too much ass to cut herself, vincent decides being shiny sucks, barret realizes fros are stupid and an 8 year old is more than qualified to run a bar along with terrorism being wrong, yuffie figures stealing materia is more fun than being able to pay for it and cid decides not giving a fuck is easier. Basically everyone returns to being what they were at the end of VII. What they did to cloud is not character development, it's merely going in circles. In AC cloud didn't grow at all. He just whined the whole movie then once again recovered himself and made himself into what he was at the end of VII. AC didn't have any character development, it just 180 twice (one to make cloud whine through the whole thing and another to make him as he was at the end of VII) without any real payout....
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Ok, finished the ff13 storyline. Overall it is a good game. Not great, but good. Certainly falls short to multiple other FF.
I ended up enjoying the gameplay. It's good enough to keep going at least though still not great. My main grievance with it is in how limited it ultimately is. I don't mind that I only use one character at a time. I do however mind that I am not able to change between them. I mean, why? I still have not used all the full ATB skills solely because of this. And it is just stupid that in the few instances a character uses death on you it's a game over if it happens to be the character you are controlling.... Honestly, there were parts of the game where I was about to quit if it got any worst.. And then I got to pulse, the linearity ended and I got to fight giant monsters and not do the plot.

Storywise, my reaction to this is along the lines of "what the fuck did I just watch?". What a fucking drag. I remember reading online a description of the story and characters as "joyless". I didn't quite get it until I played the game. Lightning is a drag. I warmed up to her but that might have been because I got to pulse and she was the character that kicked the most ass and I didn't do any of the plot... And the plot.... It just... doesn't deliver. How is it that there are a billion hours of cutscenes and the story is a confusing mess that does not explain stuff? I was starting the game and then suddenly sanctum starts a purge over some place because pulse l'cie. At that point my reaction was again "what!?". Why the fuck wasn't I told I needed to take notes to follow this crap? Do I even have a notebook? Eventually I realized there was a log which had a fair bit of information. Which I didn't bother with because WTF? Ok, I don't need notes but now you want me to study you? It doesn't fucking work that way. First you convince of your inherent awesomeness. You get me interested and invested in the game and the story. Then after many hours of gameplay when I am genuinely fascinated with the engaging world presented to me you show me a log which further develops what I have seen. And the "further develop" part is crucial, I shouldn't need the stuff there to understand what is going on. It's like if tolkien tried to shove the silmarilion on an innocent bystander before reading the LOTRs or the hobbit. Or if you needed to read silmarilion and the expanded works to understand LOTRs. So fuck you log that explains things, I don't yet care about what details of the story you have because your story so far sucks.

Still, lightning does have some appeal. She seems to be rather one dimensional with her one emotion, anger, but there are worst emotions she could be limited too. At least she is not a total bitch. Even in despair her drive to kick ass is... there. At least if she is going to go down she would do it in a blaze of glory. And her gunblade is pretty cool. If I see gunblade I won't necessarily like but I can be forgiving. She is a bit of a letdown in the sense that she is even less developed than squal or cloud. Squall was sort of an indifferent who grows as a character and leader and eventually comes to be a likeable guy. Lightning is sort of like that except that she never changes from her one emotion, anger. Thank god it wasn't another emotion, if squall had been the same character through his game he would have been an unbearable emo to the end. There were still a few parts got to me in a particularly bad way. Take the birthday scene. Setting aside that it lasted way more than it should have, it was just... What? You have snow who proposed marriage to serah. Serah who was made a l'cie. And Lightning. Lightning arrives. She is told serah was made a l'cie and they are getting married. And lightning is just angry. WHY!? Is she angry that serah is made a l'cie? I hope not because that would be stupid. Does she think serah is lying about being made a l'cie? Is she angry because she agreed to married snow? I can get behind that, snow shouldn't be allowed near anything vaguely sharp nor the chance to reproduce. But is that the reason? Someone tell me for the love of god. And then lightning complains about the whole thing being the worst birthday every. To which I think "Of course it is the worst birthday ever. First, you clearly have no friends, there is no one else in that room. Which makes sense because your prime directive is anger. And second, you just told your sister who got engaged and her one dimensional moron to go fuck themselves.". Maybe she is angry because no one attended her birthday. Maybe it's a good thing that no one attended it because she would have ruined it anyways. And I still do't fucking know what the hell she was angry about. Lastly, any chance of light ever smiling? Or would the universe explode if such a thing happens?

I don't even want to touch the convoluted mess that is jailbait/vanille.

Sahz... What is up with this guy? The guy is the only one who has a sort of compelling storyline but it doesn't make sense. He just pull through the plot being a drag. He has a sort of compelling story line but never really has the means actually complete it. As in, he just runs through the motions without EVER having a reason to think he can save his son. And even with this he is made into comedic relieve. His worst moment is definitely when fighting the final boss. In the cutscene after you defeat the first form of the final boss you see the enemy squirming and screaming while sinking into a poll... And sahz' reaction I shit you not is "HEY! SHUT UP! YOU ARE TOO LOUD!". What!? This is beyond stupid. I... I.. Ah fuck it. By the time he almost killed himself I was cheering from him. It would have rid me of a character I thoroughly disliked and the sweet embrace of death would have set him free. It worked for both of us.

And hope... Fucking hope. I hate him almost as much as I hate snow. First you have him just kinda being there. Which is fair because the story just started. Then his mom joins snow...And meanwhile he joins vanille. Whom he follows. Because his boner compels him too. Which is more noble than virtually any other motivation we see in this convoluted mess of a story. Godspeed you fantastic son of a bitch. And then it all goes to hell, his mom dies. I am a bit fuzzy on the order. I don't recall if he first joins vanille (due to his boner compelling him to) or his mom dies and then he follows vanille due to his boner. I hope it is not the second one. I am to afraid to check because of how disturbing it might be. Anyways there is the snow and his mom thing and hope starts following snow. At which point I wonder, why? Why does he want to confront him? Does he want to thank snow for trying to save his mom until the last second? I wonder, does he want revenge? At which I think, that's stupid, the whole thing does not appear to be snow's fault. Then again hope is a kid so he might be seeing it like that. Then HOURS later he makes it clear he wants revenge on him. Which is... Well. And then it gets stupid. NORAAAAAAAAA! MARTHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! And to add insult to injury this asshole becomes the philosophical voice of reason? "They don't deliver wonders, only tricks". Ha.

Good old fang. She is awesome. I see her sort of as wonder woman from batman v superman. Awesome in her underdevelopment. Because the dicks writing this did not do too much with her other than kicking ass. Godspeed you gentle giant.

And snow.... He is retarded. As far as I can tell he was meant to be satire of a hero. Except he wasn't funny and took himself way too seriously and didn't make any sort of point. His worst moment in the game definite is when he claims "Heroes never die!". First of all, that is factually incorrect. If anything in certain contexts heroes are by definition dead. That aside, when did FF turn into the sort of mess where heroes never die? What about FFVI where killing main characters was a valid option (which I took because fuck you shadow)? FFVII's most iconic moment is a main character dying. Vivi is at least implied to die at the end of IX. Even in X, a subpar FF, the main character ceases to exist. Maybe the problem is not the line itself, maybe it is just the asshole who says it though. Still, I can't help the feeling that whoever conceived this line didn't know what FF is supposed to be about. Is it me or where the one mandatory one liners each character got during the final battle the absolute worst of the writing in the game?

And then there is cid... Worst cid yet. First he is the ally of the gang, then he seemingly arbitrarily wants to kill them... Wanting to fight his focus is a good thing. I can agree with that. But it fighting a focus so one dimensional that it implies literally doing the opposite of it? And ok, maybe he just went nuts. Such a thing is reasonable. But why bring him back at all? Was he brainwashed? Or did he go along with that nonsense because he was crazy? Him getting unceremoniously executed was his highpoint.

And then the final boss.... What the hell is going on? They made the point they were not going to complete their focus but they end up doing their exact focus anyways? They didn't have a plan or anything, the whole thing is an incoherent mess which makes it seem like they think that they are fighting their focus while at the same time doing exactly that. What sort of incoherent mess is this? If anything they ended up saving the world out of sheer dumb luck.

FFXII had its weakpoints but at least the plot made a shred of sense... Overall, this is fun game if you are able to ignore the plot altogether because the plot is a bunch of incoherent nonsense with no payout that relies entirely on the characters dumb luck. Still, the fights are fun and the missions are worth doing IMO. It's a shame there isn't any story with these missions though... You are just told to kill a monster and then you do it.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Is FFXV going to be a continuation of FFXIII? I read that it is going to be a part of fabula nova crystallis or something...
 

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Some info about the story and characters for FFXV: Kingsglaive
 

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Here are all the infos from the latest Game Informer article about FinalFantasyXV, part of their month-long coverage of the game.

They got to play many hours of the game's first chapter.

Gameplay details:

-Weapon types includes: swords, daggers, lances, firearms, shields, royal arms, spells, and something called "machines" which weren't revealed yet;

-One of the screenshots has Ignis with a spear;

-You can improve and forge weapons from materials you collect;

-The game have magic synthesis to create new spells;

-When you call a summon they won't always do the same thing. They are entities that exist in the world itself. So depending on the situation they will do different things. Examples given Titan sometimes will run up and melee hit an enemy, sometimes he will throw boulders at the enemy and its possible he will even give up and leave the battle. They will also act differently in a dungeon than they will in the overworld. Its a huge focus for the staff for Summons to feel exciting and a major event when they show up, not just some random monster that swoops in. They want a sense of awe with them;

-There will be a growth system where you can spend ability points on weapon skills, Noctis, the party, bonuses etc. ;

-Each party member has their own "special talent" that improves with use. One example given is Prompto will ask the crew to take pit stops with the car where everyone gets out, goes to a spot and he takes photographs. You can then share these photo's on social media. The more you do it the better his pictures will be. These are in the game for both character development and will have real consequences for the game. Prompto is photography, Noctis is fishing, Ignis is cooking, and Gladiolus is survival instincts;

-The trunk of the Regalia acts as party storage;

-You can make branching decisions. Similar to older FFs dialogue choices(apparently will effect stats of party for a bit, like you say this Ignis will do more damage or the party gains more experience for this choice, choices will be based on character personality at times);

-Four quest types: for fun (minigames:fishing/chocobo race/JusMon5 etc.), main story, monster hunts and regional quests. Currently over 200 quests and they're working on more;

-GI has this to say, "FFXV isn't Witcher 3 or Dragon Age Inquisition in terms of your to-do list. That isn't necessarily bad because your quest log isn't bloated by insignificant or uninteresting tasks.....inspires a feeling similar to pre-PS2 Final Fantasies where there were huge overworld maps that made the setting seem authentic and enormous - even if you didn't find a quest every step.";

-GI says there's a instrumental version of this in the game: ;

-Tabata: "We have no intention to create sequels out of this";

-Kingsglaive has existed from 2013;

Is FFXV going to be a continuation of FFXIII? I read that it is going to be a part of fabula nova crystallis or something...
No they moved away from the FNC

Some Trailers from Uncovered:


Recent ATR Q/A Info:
  • You can’t climb.(Think Assassin Creed)
  • There is a system similar to a skill tree. You can also learn new abilities.
  • The game isn’t set in an open world where you can freely go wherever you like. Since there is a main quest, the more you progress, the more places you’ll be able to go.
  • The action isn’t very difficult. It’s an RPG through and through that everyone can enjoy. The game will have difficulty settings, which will be discussed more at E3.
  • The second episode of Brotherhood: Final Fantasy XV will come out around E3.
  • There are seven types of standard weapon categories, and each category has a variety of weapons. Combined with the Phantom Sword, there are even more categories within itself.
  • There won’t be a gallery mode in the final version, but there are plans to make it after the game is finished. There are no plans for a camera mode.
  • Cars are faster than chocobos.
  • The white-hooded man from the E3 2013 trailer is still in the game.
  • In response to a user concerned about the “downgraded” graphics of the Platinum Demo, who asked when we’ll see the graphics of the actual product, the response was “Please look forward to E3.”
  • On putting out an Ignis’ Cookbook: “If you’re in publishing, by all means make us an offer.”
  • There are no plans for an Ultimate Edition without the Noctis figure.
  • You can’t control the boat. You can control the camera, however.
  • There aren’t just 10 songs from previous Final Fantasy games to listen to in the car—there’s an abundance of songs to enjoy. Since there are law restrictions and such per country, being able to play your own music in the game is a difficult thing to implement.
  • You can save at any time (not just at camp).
  • You can return to areas you’ve previously visited so long as it’s before the last boss.
  • You can fast travel by choosing camp sites and such from the map.
  • In response to “Why did you develop this game for 10 years?” Tabata said it’s not like they decided from the beginning that they were going to develop the game for that long.
  • Facial and hair designs for Prompto were altered after receiving negative feedback so that users around the world would better receive the game.
  • Hajime Tabata’s favorite character is Noctis, and Akio Ofuji’s is Prompto.
  • There are no plans to release a Soldier-style Cloud costume from the Final Fantasy VII movie as downloadable content.
  • You’ll get a “Game Over” if you fail to land the car from flight. It’s not that difficult, though.
  • There are many parts based on the real experiences of the staff. Some of it is also influenced by a trip to Europe that Tabata went on in his 20s.
  • You can give chocobos buffs through meals.
  • The Lucis government is a friendly one. Compared to the Shinzo Abe administration… “let’s stop there.”
  • Tabata wants to release a bundle, but that’s up to Sony Interactive Entertainment. He’d like if it could happen.
  • After development on the game wraps up, Tabata promised SaGa creator Akitoshi Kawazu that he would clear Final Fantasy II.
  • Tabata is planning a countdown to midnight release live stream on September 29.
  • Tabata attributes Noctis drinking Ebony in Brotherhood to the behavior of a young person drinking coffee to be cool, since Noctis says he hates it in Episode Duscae.
  • The name Ebony, which is both the name of the development engine and Ignis’ favorite coffee, comes from the color black, which is the key color of Final Fantasy XV (and the color the coffee). Since there’s already an Ebony Coffee in New Zealand, they might not be able to use the name overseas.
  • Justice Monsters‘ release timing will be announced immediately following E3.
  • A “Day 0 Edition” Active Time Report is planned for June 13, the day before E3
  • Noctis Lucis Caelum
  • Age: 20
    Birthday: August 30
    Height: 176cm
    Favorite Thing: Updating a game’s high score
    Heir apparent to the Lucian throne, Noctis’s trials begin when he sets forth from the crown city in order to wed the Lady Lunafreya Nox Fleuret. In combat, he wields spectral weapons which he forges from thin air, a power possessed by those of his royal line.

    Ignis Scientia

    Age: 22
    Birthday: February 7
    Height: 183cm
    Favorite Thing: Inventing new food recipes
    Ignis was raised alongside Prince Noctis to be adviser to the heir apparent. An intensive education instilled in him the resourcefulness and composure required for the role, his tactical acumen proving invaluable over the course of the prince’s journey.

    Gladiolus Amicitia

    Age: 23
    Birthday: April 2
    Height: 198cm
    Favorite Thing: Camping by Coleman
    The Amicitia family has long served as the shield protecting the kings of Lucis and their household, and Gladiolus is its eldest son. The bond he shares with Noctis transcends that of a bodyguard and his liege. With his prodigious strength, he stands ever ready to keep his companions from harm.

    Prompto Argentum

    Age: 20
    Birthday: October 25
    Height: 173cm
    Favorite Thing: Taking pictures
    Fast friends with Noctis since they met as teenagers, Prompto is a young man of common birth who finds himself out of his depth when tragedy befalls Lucis. Nevertheless, he strives to carry more than his own weight, lightening his companions’ burdens as well as their spirits.
 
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