Hangout Black Clover Hangout Thread

[Rikudou King]

But there is still the intervention of the demon behind, that counts.

The demon's addition only adds more to the crime, it doesn't negate the crime nor the reasons behind it.

Who ?

The King, who we had an entire battle over protecting him.

And after the fight with this demon do you think they will still lose time with the possessed?

Freeing those who are possessed is the MCs entire goal, and the author has continued to mention this situation, so of course it's gonna be dealt with.

Yes he will.

Asta has always been presented as a very empathetic and desperate to help others, he was already trying to help the elves. Now that it has jumped out that no faction has faults, it is much easier

So you believe that the author intends to have Asta forgive the elves, and to do this, he specifically has Asta not forgive Patri after seeing what happen? Exactly what reason would there be for the author to do this, instead of simply having Asta forgive him then and there.

Where exactly has Asta been shown trying to help the elves? Please show me, because all that's been shown is Asta trying to save those the elves have possessed.

So Noelle is not a royal family....

You commented that "Asta and the others would arrive at a meeting point to resolve or otherwise take responsibility for the faults of their ancestors. ". Noelle is a single person, there is no "their ancestors".

 

[Franz]

The demon's addition only adds more to the crime, it doesn't negate the crime nor the reasons behind it.

But in the eyes of readers and characters it makes humans less guilty, this is disputed.
Clearly it is a convenient solution to avoid thorny topics.

The King, who we had an entire battle over protecting him.

But the reason for this has not been understood

Freeing those who are possessed is the MCs entire goal, and the author has continued to mention this situation, so of course it's gonna be dealt with.

Was.

Now it has become "Defeat the evil demon with the help of our elven friends even if we killed each other until two hours ago".

o you believe that the author intends to have Asta forgive the elves, and to do this, he specifically has Asta not forgive Patri after seeing what happen?

But if he fought alongside him without any problem ...

You commented that "Asta and the others would arrive at a meeting point to resolve or otherwise take responsibility for the faults of their ancestors. ". Noelle is a single person, there is no "their ancestors".

Noelle is a protagonist and is of the royal family, moreover the gesture of the royalty also falls on the normal citizens of Clover.

 

[Rikudou King]

But in the eyes of readers and characters it makes humans less guilty, this is disputed.
Clearly it is a convenient solution to avoid thorny topics.

Perhaps anecdotal, but you appear to be the only reader here seeing them as less guilty. As for the characters, that's clearly false. And if this was meant to "avoid" the topic, then why would the author keep reminding us that they were involved? You don't avoid a topic by continuing to bring it up.

But the reason for this has not been understood

We know why they went after him, because he was the king, they literally state that fact in said chapter.

Was.

Now it has become "Defeat the evil demon with the help of our elven friends even if we killed each other until two hours ago".

It was literally mentioned again only a few chapters ago. And you do realize that only a single elf has "joined" to help them fight, right? Licth and Charla were fighting for their own.

But if he fought alongside him without any problem ...

That only means there are bigger issues to deal with, which doesn't prevent them from dealing with it afterward. I'm not sure why this is a strange notion.

Noelle is a protagonist and is of the royal family, moreover the gesture of the royalty also falls on the normal citizens of Clover.

Which is not what was originally said, there is no "thier" in this situation. At most, Noelle will have to face this, and we already saw the seeds for this being laid out several arcs ago already with Vetto. So to you, the actions of the Royalty done without the regular citizens knowing or being involved still makes it fall onto them, but somehow the Royalty is supposely being made blameless despite working with the demon and actually committing the crime itself... How does that work exactly?

 

[Franz]

but you appear to be the only reader here seeing them as less guilty

Here we do not talk about what readers are seeing, but what the author wants to convey.

And it is clearly an author's rather obvious attempt to avoid dealing with uncomfortable topics.

It was literally mentioned again only a few chapters ago.

And so ?

Licth and Charla were fighting for their own.

But they fight the same with Yami, without any problem indeed, they are also able to coordinate the attacks.

That only means there are bigger issues to deal with, which doesn't prevent them from dealing with it afterward

Believe it.
They haven't solved it before let alone if they do it later.

, there is no "thier" in this situation. At most, Noelle will have to face this, and we already saw the seeds for this being laid out several arcs ago already with Vetto

But really ?

Noelle knows nothing of what happened to Vetto, how can she feel sorry for him?

So to you, the actions of the Royalty done without the regular citizens knowing or being involved still makes it fall onto them,

The actions of the royals mean that centuries later the elves seek revenge on the normal citizens of Clover. It is not difficult to understand

but somehow the Royalty is supposely being made blameless despite working with the demon and actually committing the crime itself..

But I don't say it,

The manga says it,

 

[Rikudou King]

Here we do not talk about what readers are seeing, but what the author wants to convey.

And it is clearly an author's rather obvious attempt to avoid dealing with uncomfortable topics.

Except if that was true, why would the author continue to remind us that the Royalty were terrible people involved with the massacre? We literally just had a flashback reminding us that the Royalty were greedy discriminatory jerks, and that it was the human's instruments that was used to eliminate the elves.

How is it "avoiding" uncomfortable topics when it keeps being brought up? Again, if the author wanted to avoid the topics, then he would simply not mention it again, like how in Naruto, various evil characters' actions were just never mentioned again to whitewash them.

And so ?

So it's not been forgotten or dropped.

But they fight the same with Yami, without any problem indeed, they are also able to coordinate the attacks.

They were fighting the Demon until Yami appeared and helped. Yami helped specifically to protect Charlotte's body, and yeah, Licht, who doesn't hate humans, could coordinate with Yami's attack.

Believe it.
They haven't solved it before let alone if they do it later.

Of course it will be solved later, they clearly aren't gonna condemn a bunch of innocent people to hell...

But really ?

Noelle knows nothing of what happened to Vetto, how can she feel sorry for him?

Why would she have to feel sorry for him? Neither the Royalty or elves are good in this situation, and deserve pity after their crimes. We're once again reminded of this by the most recent chapter.

The actions of the royals mean that centuries later the elves seek revenge on the normal citizens of Clover. It is not difficult to understand

The citizens are innocent in this, making the elves actions evil, as we're literally reminded by Licht in the most recent chapter. The very fact the citizens had nothing to do with any of this is why the elves are in the wrong.

But I don't say it,

The manga says it,

It is you though, because the manga continues to bring up that the Royalty were evil and push the point that niether them nor the elves are absolved of the evil actions they have done despite the manipulation of the Demon.

 

[Franz]

why would the author continue to remind us that the Royalty were terrible people involved with the massacre?

Wait, when?
Because in the last 10 chapters I have done nothing but see a devil who boasts and gloats over his wickedness

We literally just had a flashback reminding us that the Royalty were greedy discriminatory jerks,

Um, but this before the story of the demon emerged.

and that it was the human's instruments that was used to eliminate the elves.

Interesting um, I can't wait to see what impact it will have on the history of ... ah no wait .....

and yeah, Licht, who doesn't hate humans, could coordinate with Yami's attack.

Too bad the demon complimented Yami and Charla's tag team.

And yes Licth does not hate humans, in fact he had attacked Asta and Yuno to joke ....

Of course it will be solved later, they clearly aren't gonna condemn a bunch of innocent people to hell...

Ehm, what ?

Why would she have to feel sorry for him?

I don't know, maybe because his family exterminated his race?

The citizens are innocent in this

No matter, the actions of the royals of the past fall back on the realm of the present, the kingdom of Clover is guilty of a abject act, the thing could be used as future ideas to make Asta and Yuno reflect on the work of the Magic Knight.

It is you though, because the manga continues to bring up that the Royalty were evil

Actually the manga is blatantly dumping everything on the demon, and only on him.

 

[Rikudou King]

Wait, when?
Because in the last 10 chapters I have done nothing but see a devil who boasts and gloats over his wickedness

Aside from the fact that's incorrect, we just had Secre's flashback of her past showing the Royalty were terrible and how Lumiere was different.

Um, but this before the story of the demon emerged.

We just saw it again in Secre's flashback...

Interesting um, I can't wait to see what impact it will have on the history of ... ah no wait .....

Seeing as the elves were only able to be exterminated because of those tools, their impact is pretty major.

Too bad the demon complimented Yami and Charla's tag team.

And yes Licth does not hate humans, in fact he had attacked Asta and Yuno to joke ....

Right, because using the plants to stop the blades shows great tactical coordination, and it wasn't just him mocking them.

Licht wasn't conscious, that was a major point that got repeated multiple times.

Ehm, what ?

Those possessed by the elves, they'll be condemned to the underworld if the possession isn't broken. That's the entire central conflict that started this all, and the reason why the elves aren't likely gonna be sticking around past this arc.

I don't know, maybe because his family exterminated his race?

And he in turn helped kill a bunch of innocent people. You kind of lose the sympathy card when you do something as bad.

No matter, the actions of the royals of the past fall back on the realm of the present, the kingdom of Clover is guilty of a abject act, the thing could be used as future ideas to make Asta and Yuno reflect on the work of the Magic Knight.

No it doesn't. Nowhere in the world does the crimes on the past fall onto those in the present to bare. That would an incredibly stupid way to do things, because it would mean every single person is now guilty of a crime... And the actions of the Royalty had nothing to do with the Magic Knights or the way of the kingdom. It was literally them wanting more power, so they proceeded to take it. There's nothing to reflect upon. If they had used the Magic Knights to do it, then perhaps you could argue that, but the Magic Knights didn't even exist at that point, and are literally based upon Lumeire's actions, the one who wasn't apart of the massacre and tried to stop it. The Magic Knights, like the citizens, are blameless in this and thus have nothing to reflect upon.

Actually the manga is blatantly dumping everything on the demon, and only on him.

No, it doesn't. When we are literally told it was because of the Royalty's desire that the demon could even take advantage of them, when they could only do it because of the magic tools, and outright shown that they were terrible even before the demon got involved, it's not being solely dumped on the demon. I don't know how you are reading that into this. If the author intended to dump everything on the demon, then the Royalty would not be mentioned again when talking about the massacre, or they would have been shown unaware of what had really happen.

An example of an author dumping all bad events on a single villain would be like in Inuyasha, where the author shows it wasn't actually Kikyo and Inuyasha attacking each other, but really Naraku taking their appearance and doing it without their knowledge just to manipulate them. That's the sort of thing you're talking about.

 

[Franz]

Aside from the fact that's incorrect, we just had Secre's flashback of her past showing the Royalty were terrible and how Lumiere was different.

The Royalty was not seen at all in the flashback.

Flashback that serves only to emphasize how evil the demon is because yes.

We just saw it again in Secre's flashback...

When ?

Seeing as the elves were only able to be exterminated because of those tools, their impact is pretty major.

I meant, in the history of the present ....

Those possessed by the elves, they'll be condemned to the underworld if the possession isn't broken. T

But wasn't it a lie?

And he in turn helped kill a bunch of innocent people. You kind of lose the sympathy card when you do something as bad.

But we always come back to the point before, Noelle doesn't know what happened to Vetto

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 16, 2019 ---

No it doesn't. Nowhere in the world does the crimes on the past fall onto those in the present to bare. That would an incredibly stupid way to do things, because it would mean every single person is now guilty of a crime... And the actions of the Royalty had nothing to do with the Magic Knights or the way of the kingdom. It was literally them wanting more power, so they proceeded to take it. There's nothing to reflect upon. If they had used the Magic Knights to do it, then perhaps you could argue that, but the Magic Knights didn't even exist at that point, and are literally based upon Lumeire's actions, the one who wasn't apart of the massacre and tried to stop it. The Magic Knights, like the citizens, are blameless in this and thus have nothing to reflect upon.

The actions of royalty in the past have only brought trouble to Clover's present, at least to recognize it would be a big step forward.

Without forgetting that the Magical Knights must protect the royals, whom they rightly believe, knowing that the people they protect owe their power to deeds, that the model hero of the country is involved in a massacre and that the villains of the fairy tales children's lives are actually victims would surely have had a huge impact on them ..

No, it doesn't. When we are literally told it was because of the Royalty's desire that the demon could even take advantage of them,

But again, it is the demon that had the initiative and to have devised everything, the royals were only and exclusively a tool.

No one since the demon appeared blames them more, Licth even asks Lumiere for forgiveness for what he is doing, when logic wants him to feel a little resentment towards him ....

 

[Rikudou King]

The Royalty was not seen at all in the flashback.

Flashback that serves only to emphasize how evil the demon is because yes.

Aside from Secre beginning the flashback explaining how terrible the Royalty treat others, we saw them speaking with the presumably possessed minister.

The flashback was to show us the events of the past. I'm not sure why you're talking about the demon when he didn't even have that big of a role in her flashback. Heck, Secre was the one who sealed him, showing us that without a body, he's a much easier opponent.

I meant, in the history of the present ....

It remains the same.

But wasn't it a lie?

What? It was never shown a lie.

But we always come back to the point before, Noelle doesn't know what happened to Vetto

That doesn't matter. Again, he killed a bunch of people. Learning later that he had a bad past won't change that. We literally see that with Patri, who despite his past being known, is still told his actions were unforgivable.

The actions of royalty in the past have only brought trouble to Clover's present, at least to recognize it would be a big step forward.

Without forgetting that the Magical Knights must protect the royals, whom they rightly believe, knowing that the people they protect owe their power to deeds, that the model hero of the country is involved in a massacre and that the villains of the fairy tales children's lives are actually victims would surely have had a huge impact on them ..

Perhaps you should wait til everyone actually learns what happen before expecting them to recognize it. The only ones who know what actually happen was Asta and Yuno, and even they don't know the full story. More importantly, they currently have a bunch of stuff already on their plate. Expecting the characters to have some major discussion not only during a major life and death situation, but when only a little time has past is silly.

But again, it is the demon that had the initiative and to have devised everything, the royals were only and exclusively a tool.

No one since the demon appeared blames them more, Licth even asks Lumiere for forgiveness for what he is doing, when logic wants him to feel a little resentment towards him ....

Where did you get that idea from? As far as we've seen, it was the Royalty who plan and pulled it off. All the demon did was wait til the Royalty acted and after they left, come in to try and grab Licth's body.

Why would Licth feel resentment towards Lumiere? Lumiere didn't do anything for Licth to resent. And Licth asks for forgiveness for thinking Lumiere was behind the massacre, and then for asking him to kill Licth. It makes prefect sense for Licth to feel bad for doubting a friend and then wanting that friend to bloody their hands with his death. Obviously having to kill your friend, an innocent friend at that, would be a huge deal for someone to do.

 

[Franz]

Aside from Secre beginning the flashback explaining how terrible the Royalty treat others, we saw them speaking with the presumably possessed minister.

Remove the presumably.

It remains the same.

I do not think so...

What? It was never shown a lie.

Instead, yes, since the spell had to be made complete by the stone of Yuno, too bad that it was later discovered that it was used for more ...

That doesn't matter. Again, he killed a bunch of people

Even Patry, yet with him they are fighting without problems.
Wasn't the whole manga based on getting to know each other even among enemies?

Perhaps you should wait til everyone actually learns what happen before expecting them to recognize it. The only ones who know what actually happen was Asta and Yuno, and even they don't know the full story. More importantly, they currently have a bunch of stuff already on their plate. Expecting the characters to have some major discussion not only during a major life and death situation, but when only a little time has past is silly.

I have the impression that with the story of the demon everything will be forgotten ....

Where did you get that idea from?

Ehm from the manga....

As far as we've seen, it was the Royalty who plan and pulled it off.

What ? But if the demon does nothing but repeat obsessively that it was all his fault ....

Why would Licth feel resentment towards Lumiere? Lumiere didn't do anything for Licth to resent.

Why was he the only one who knew the location of the village? Why was the massacre done by his family?

Anyone would have thought even for a moment that it would be his fault ....

 

[Rikudou King]

Remove the presumably.

Either the minister was possessed or not at that point, regardless, we were shown them scheming.

I do not think so...

It's established that normally the demons are incapable of doing anything because they lack a body, meaning getting others to aid them is a major thing. And with the introduction of Lumiere being the creator of those magic tools, they'll likely play a bigger role to come.

Instead, yes, since the spell had to be made complete by the stone of Yuno, too bad that it was later discovered that it was used for more ...

What are you talking about? They needed the magic stone to wipe away the side effects of the reincarnation magic and give themselves the power to wipe away humanity. The Demon using it for a different wish doesn't change what we were previous told.

Even Patry, yet with him they are fighting without problems.
Wasn't the whole manga based on getting to know each other even among enemies?

Yeah, he's fighting because he wants revenge against the Demon too. What exactly are you expecting? Patri to just go screw revenge after literally caring about nothing but revenge this entire time? And... no? Aside from the standard flow of shounen storytelling, Asta and co haven't really tried all that much to reform enemies. I recall him wanting to save Mars, but his reasoning didn't really have anything to do with Mars himself.

I have the impression that with the story of the demon everything will be forgotten ....

In what way? Pertaining to the elves? Sure, narrative wise they won't be around past this arc. Lumiere and his legacy? Doubtful, he's likely gonna be the motivation for Asta and Yuno to be come stronger. The Demon? He'll likely be defeated this arc but it's been established that there are other demons. The Royalty being corrupt? That's a key part of the story and likely will not go away any time soon.

Ehm from the manga....

The manga shows nothing like that. Please give me the page if I'm wrong. We're specifically shown that the Demon wanted a body because he was incapable of actually doing anything without one.

What ? But if the demon does nothing but repeat obsessively that it was all his fault ....

No he hasn't. The Demon originally mentioning that he used the Royalty' desire =/= claiming all the fault. That wouldn't even make sense with what we were literally shown. It was the Royalty who carried out the actual action, using the recently created magical tools of Lumiere. And aside from the info dump upon his arrival, the Demon hasn't mentioned the massacre at all.

Why was he the only one who knew the location of the village? Why was the massacre done by his family?

Anyone would have thought even for a moment that it would be his fault ....

Right, Licth did think Lumiere was behind it until he arrived and Licth realized he had been wrong, which led to him apologizing to Lumiere for doubting him. So again, why would Licth feel resentment towards Lumiere, who he knows was innocent? And obviously Lumiere wasn't the only one who knew the location, because we know he didn't tell it to the Demon.

 

[Franz]

Either the minister was possessed or not at that point, regardless, we were shown them scheming.

We clearly see the minister possessed talking to them, and we he always returns there. The idea had the demon, the manga itself dumps all the blame on him ...

It's established that normally the demons are incapable of doing anything because they lack a body,

I don't understand what this has to do with it now?

What are you talking about? They needed the magic stone to wipe away the side effects of the reincarnation magic

It was a lie, we saw what the stone was for, summon the demon.

Yeah, he's fighting because he wants revenge against the Demon too. What exactly are you expecting? Patri to just go screw revenge after literally caring about nothing but revenge this entire time? And... no?

Same speech. Common enemy? All forgiven ....

Asta and co haven't really tried all that much to reform enemies.

We read two different manga then.

The manga shows nothing like that. Please give me the page if I'm wrong.

Ehm

Spoiler

No he hasn't.

Ehm:

Spoiler

Right, Licth did think Lumiere was behind it until he arrived and Licth realized he had been wrong,

And based on what precisely?

 

[Rikudou King]

We clearly see the minister possessed talking to them, and we he always returns there. The idea had the demon, the manga itself dumps all the blame on him ...

Except the manga doesn't, even after the Demon's reveal, the Royalty are still portrayed as evil and stuff.

I don't understand what this has to do with it now?

The Demon only just got a body, he only just now has been able to actually do anything. That's the point.

It was a lie, we saw what the stone was for, summon the demon.

No, what the stones did were clearly stated, opening a path to the underworld. You're confusing the fact that the Demon used that path to come through as what they did, and ignoring how he did that... Considering the magic stones were originally the elves, why would they not know what they were capable of?

Same speech. Common enemy? All forgiven ....

But his actions haven't been forgiven. Again, we literally had Licth talk about his actions, well after they all began to fight the Demon together, and mention they were unforgivable.

We read two different manga then.

What enemies have Asta and co went after for reformation? The most we have had was the enemies coming over to Asta's side without any effort from Asta and co...

Ehm

Spoiler

Ehm:

Spoiler

Neither of those spoilers are showing anything.

And based on what precisely?

What do you mean? Lumiere arriving to try and save them. Obviously Lumiere would have no reason to come there after the fact if he was a part of plot.

 

[Franz]

Except the manga doesn't, even after the Demon's reveal, the Royalty are still portrayed as evil and stuff.

Truly from 195 onwards only and only the demon is being portrayed as the villain of the situation.

The Demon only just got a body, he only just now has been able to actually do anything. That's the point.

I still do not understand.

No, what the stones did were clearly stated, opening a path to the underworld.

The purpose of the stones was to cement the elves in human bodies and to send the souls of humans to the underworld. Which as we have seen was not true.

But his actions haven't been forgiven.

I think so, judging from these last chapters in which he fights without any problem alongside Asta and Yuno as if he had known them for years.

Hell, Nozelle even saves Fana's life, let us realize.

What enemies have Asta and co went after for reformation?

Mars, Radols, Fana, Rades, Valtos, Sally Patry, that is Asta was sorry even for Vetto and until the last wanted to talk with Raia ..

Neither of those spoilers are showing anything.

Yes, instead, try clicking with the right mouse button.,

What do you mean? Lumiere arriving to try and save them.

Actually, he'll stop them, anyone would have thought for even a minute that he was behind the attack, but to Licth you only need to see him even for a minute to change his mind ...

Obviously Lumiere would have no reason to come there after the fact if he was a part of plot.

The first thought that a normal person would make is that he was there to enjoy the show ...

 

[Kiki]

Manga Wars 2019 are live! Go nominate your favorite manga here!​

 

[Rikudou King]

Truly from 195 onwards only and only the demon is being portrayed as the villain of the situation.

That's not true at all. If that was the case, we wouldn't have the scenes with the Royalty. We also wouldn't have Patri's actions mentioned again and again in a negative light. You're taking the fact that the Demon is being treated an imminent threat as him being treated as the only threat, and that's not how it actually is.

I still do not understand.

What is it you're having trouble understanding?

The purpose of the stones was to cement the elves in human bodies and to send the souls of humans to the underworld. Which as we have seen was not true.

Yeah, via opening a path to the underworld using the stones. Instead, that path was used by the Demon. The whole point is that the stones did what they were meant to do, open up the path to the underworld.

I think so, judging from these last chapters in which he fights without any problem alongside Asta and Yuno as if he had known them for years.

Hell, Nozelle even saves Fana's life, let us realize.

Again, they have bigger things to deal with right now. You're basically saying they should refuse any help and potentially allow the world to be destroyed because they may not like someone. Also, they haven't been "fighting together", Yuno and Asta have been fighting and he simply helped them when he could.

And yeah, because as mentioned, they want to save the people the elves are possessing. Nozelle literally got told off for forgetting that several chapters ago.

Mars, Radols, Fana, Rades, Valtos, Sally Patry, that is Asta was sorry even for Vetto and until the last wanted to talk with Raia ..

Mars sure, I already acknowledged that. But the others, nope. Asta didn't try to reform any of them. They either changed on their own, without any input from Asta, or they change upon Asta's example. But Asta didn't attempt to make any of those guys into "good guys". Heck, you mention Valtos and Sally, but Valtos already felt guilty over his actions and only wanted to see Licth to know the truth, and Sally just wanted to experiment on Asta. Neither could be said to have changed their morals because of Asta.

Yes, instead, try clicking with the right mouse button.,

There is nothing to click, there is nothing inside. if there was, then it would have appeared when the reply was quoted.

Actually, he'll stop them, anyone would have thought for even a minute that he was behind the attack, but to Licth you only need to see him even for a minute to change his mind ...

Yeah, Licth thought he was behind the attack until he appeared, since him showing up there was proof otherwise. There was no reason for him to show up afterward if he was behind the attack, since those behind it had already got what they were after and had no need to stick around.

The first thought that a normal person would make is that he was there to enjoy the show ...

The "show" was already over. Everyone else was dead and Licth was barely hanging on. So again, no reason for him to be there if he was behind it. He would have already seen the "show" during the actual attack.

 

[Franz]

Character profile of Lumiere and Secre:

Spoiler

 

[Belserion]

Silvamillion? So like a fusion of the Silva and Vermillion families. That's a nice touch. The prince is older than I thought.

 

[Valhalla]

Well how about that i guess after the passing of the crown prince and princess, there were branch Silvamillion families that divided into the Silva and Vermillion, which caused the Kira family to take the crown and the Clover name.

 

[Franz]

Over the course of 500 years, probably the original family will be divided into the three we know.