American Politics

[kkck]

I could be wrong as media like Gone With the Wind probably showed the wealthy owners only. But it'd make sense given how much profit they could make off selling tobacco, cotton, and the likes due to the climate.

Erh, sure? Are you under the impression that everyone in south was a plantation and slave owner?

 

[M3J]

no, just the majority

 

[kkck]

no, just the majority

All I can do is point out that that is obviously absurd. Almost as absurd as everyone in the south being rich.

 

[M3J]

But I never said everyone was? Don't be such a left wing, kick

 

[kkck]

Okay, but the Civil War was started over slavery, because the South wanted to keep slavery. Weren't the majority of Southerners who fought rich? Other than civil wars, wars are usually fought by the poor and started by those in power.

Welp, you did say this... So...

 

[Sanity Check]

And how does that change get brought about? Deregulation? Lower taxes?

People believe politics, taxes, economics are zero sum games that have zero effect on their lives. They discuss libertarianism and stimulus plans as if they were talking about the weather on mars, topics that are completely irrelevant.

Those same people are shocked and surprised when rising oil prices affect their bottom line.

Things might change if people start to care more about their lives and their future. Enough to realize their future and fate is being decided by those in power -- who don't necessarily care about them.

Apathy would appear to be the largest obstacle to progress.

Okay, but the Civil War was started over slavery, because the South wanted to keep slavery. Weren't the majority of Southerners who fought rich? Other than civil wars, wars are usually fought by the poor and started by those in power.

Under the tariff of 1828, the south paid 75% of total tax revenues collected in the country.

That was the real motive behind the civil war if I remember right.

The only wars fought with slavery being the main cause (that I know of) were events like the servile wars (Spartacus) which were fought by slaves.

 

[M3J]

Welp, you did say this... So...

I know I said that, that's the post I was thinking of where I know I said MAJORITY, not ALL, and I rarely ever remember my posts.

People believe politics, taxes, economics are zero sum games that have zero effect on their lives. They discuss libertarianism and stimulus plans as if they were talking about the weather on mars, topics that are completely irrelevant.

Those same people are shocked and surprised when rising oil prices affect their bottom line.

Things might change if people start to care more about their lives and their future. Enough to realize their future and fate is being decided by those in power -- who don't necessarily care about them.

Apathy would appear to be the largest obstacle to progress.





Under the tariff of 1828, the south paid 75% of total tax revenues collected in the country.

That was the real motive behind the civil war if I remember right.

The only wars fought with slavery being the main cause (that I know of) were events like the servile wars (Spartacus) which were fought by slaves.

Maybe in your revisionist history, but if that was the case then it wouldn't have taken nearly 40 years for the South to start the war, when they were scared that Lincoln would abolish slavery.

 

[Sanity Check]

Maybe in your revisionist history, but if that was the case then it wouldn't have taken nearly 40 years for the South to start the war, when they were scared that Lincoln would abolish slavery.

Some say the USA invasion of iraq was all about oil, money, military industrial complex and ruling elite political narratives.

Others say it was to liberate oppressed iraq to bring them freedom and democracy.

Some say the american civil war was motivated by taxes, while others say it was to "liberate oppressed slaves, bring them freedom and democracy".

There are patterns in history that repeat. Due to us collectively failing to know and understand basic history.

 

[ninjabot]

Very short list of slavery in 2021

(off the top of my head).

First of all, if you have to resort to whataboutism to make your argument seem stronger, you're already admitting to us that you agree with us on how bad the south was during the Civil War, but don't want to admit it without pointing to other people's transgressions so it makes the Right seem less reprehensible. You could've saved face and just said "Yeah, the south were the badguys."

Cat and dog food in supermarkets can be tied to fishing industry slavery in asia.

Which is bad.

Sea salts in supermarkets can be tied to slavery in south korea.

Also bad.

Clothes, hats and shoes can usually be tied to sweatshops and slavery around the world.

Capitalism is evil, I agree.

Ipods, ipads, iphones, smartphones, electronics are often tied to child labor, slavery and foxconn worker concentration camps in china.

Not just slavery, but child slavery in a lot of these cases. Also bad.

Dubai was built on slave labor.

And leftists bring this to attention while explaining why it is the way it is. Hint: capitalism is a big part of the problem here too

Where are the wars being fought to end these practices?

Are you suggesting we fly over to southeast asian countries and start burning down factories and overthrowing their government? Do you not see how that differs from simply fighting your own fellow Americans? You're trying to point to some sort of hypocrisy that isn't there.

Do you even care if the goods you buy and use on a daily basis were products of slave labor?

Lefties do, sure. It's why we vote for policies that try to tear down the systems that keep these crimes happening. But there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. No one's going to starve to death or go without clothing just to stand up for their values. I can't help anyone if I die from exposure during the winter.

 

[M3J]

No matter what "some" say, the fact still remains the Civil War was started by the South because they wanted to keep slavery and were scared that Lincoln would free slaves. Talking about other wars isn't going to change that fact, unfortunately. It was beyond stupid because Lincoln was never going to abolish slavery otherwise, and the North was just as racist, but at least thanks to their stupidity Black people are a bit more free.

Wish it was 100% free though.

 

[Sanity Check]

No matter what "some" say, the fact still remains the Civil War was started by the South because they wanted to keep slavery and were scared that Lincoln would free slaves. Talking about other wars isn't going to change that fact, unfortunately. It was beyond stupid because Lincoln was never going to abolish slavery otherwise, and the North was just as racist, but at least thanks to their stupidity Black people are a bit more free.

Wish it was 100% free though.

In thousands of years of history.

There has not once been a war fought by non slaves to liberate slaves.

Except for the US Civl War apparently -- according to the "woke" crowd.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2021 ---

First of all, if you have to resort to whataboutism to make your argument seem stronger

I used to work in a grocery store in a poor area of town, with plenty of bums roaming around.

Felt sorry for those people. Every once in awhile I'll try to come up with an idea to end poverty/slavery.

I care -- so I try to be informed.

Are you suggesting we fly over to southeast asian countries and start burning down factories and overthrowing their government? Do you not see how that differs from simply fighting your own fellow Americans? You're trying to point to some sort of hypocrisy that isn't there.

The "woke" left is more angry about slavery 200 years ago.

Than they are about slavery right now.

Its kind of sketchy.

America tried to invade afghanistan after invading iraq twice. We invade people all the time.

Ending slavery would be more like attempts made to impose a 15% minimum global tax btw.

Lefties do, sure. It's why we vote for policies that try to tear down the systems that keep these crimes happening. But there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. No one's going to starve to death or go without clothing just to stand up for their values. I can't help anyone if I die from exposure during the winter.

The "woke" left usually supports trendy news headlines.

Whatever is trendy (and bad for everyone) is normally what they support.

 

[xi0]

No matter what "some" say, the fact still remains the Civil War was started by the South because they wanted to keep slavery and were scared that Lincoln would free slaves. Talking about other wars isn't going to change that fact, unfortunately. It was beyond stupid because Lincoln was never going to abolish slavery otherwise, and the North was just as racist, but at least thanks to their stupidity Black people are a bit more free.

Wish it was 100% free though.

This just isn't true. It was easier for people in the North to part with slavery because it was less essential for industry there. Much more industrialized centers and factories due to the fall line, while the south was mostly agricultural and needed the manpower. Slavery was already falling out of favor in many places in the world, it's not like Lincoln was talking about anything revolutionary. He ran on the premise of ending slavery, especially because of it's expansion into Western states after the war with Mexico. Of course the South would see that as existential threat and that's why they voted to secede.

Whenever people like to bring up how the war wasn't about slavery, it's worth reminding them that the Southern states literally tried to enshrine slavery in the Constitution in order to protect it from being made illegal in the South in the future. The war happened because that failed.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

There has not once been a war fought by non slaves to liberate slaves.

Except for the US Civl War apparently -- according to the "woke" crowd.

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

 

[Sanity Check]

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

1828 tariffs forced the south to pay 75% of all taxes collected in the country.

If you declared war, would it likely be over unfair 75% taxation or a deep desire to liberate slaves.

 

[xi0]

1828 tariffs forced the south to pay 75% of all taxes collected in the country.

If you declared war, would it likely be over unfair 75% taxation or a deep desire to liberate slaves.

The tariffs were adjusted every few years for the sake of appeasement/compromise, so that number doesn't really hold up in context of what led up to the war.

What does the desire matter really? Lincoln could have done the entire thing for purely practical economic reasons and it would still be the correct thing. The South had zero ethical standing. Expecting the North to tolerate the South importing things from England for cheaper prices while getting fat off of cash crops they don't have to pay a labor force to harvest? Fuck them lol

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

I don't know what exception you're taking with this. Yes, there was an economic component to the war... but what point does that prove? Slavery was a completely unsustainable practice.

 

[kkck]

I don't know what exception you're taking with this. Yes, there was an economic component to the war... but what point does that prove? Slavery was a completely unsustainable practice.

but dude, like, state rights.

 

[xi0]

but dude, like, state rights.

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

 

[M3J]

The "woke" left usually supports trendy news headlines.

pls, learn what "woke" actually means, and learn something about the "left" other than what right wing bullshit tells you.

This just isn't true. It was easier for people in the North to part with slavery because it was less essential for industry there. Much more industrialized centers and factories due to the fall line, while the south was mostly agricultural and needed the manpower. Slavery was already falling out of favor in many places in the world, it's not like Lincoln was talking about anything revolutionary. He ran on the premise of ending slavery, especially because of it's expansion into Western states after the war with Mexico. Of course the South would see that as existential threat and that's why they voted to secede.

Whenever people like to bring up how the war wasn't about slavery, it's worth reminding them that the Southern states literally tried to enshrine slavery in the Constitution in order to protect it from being made illegal in the South in the future. The war happened because that failed.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

But would they have tried to abolish slavery? Did they even care to, even if it wasn't essential and was falling out of favor?

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

They even say slavery was a choice, as if slaves weren't running away or trying to run away. Even Kanye said this... the fuck?

 

[kkck]

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

Pretty much. It's plays a fairly obvious pattern for that matter. Obviously the confederacy was, well, like any other place and had millions of people and a ton of things going on simultaneously. So in practice it's easy to simply point at all the other stuff that was also going on to try and pretty much distract from how important a role slavery played into this.

That said, there is also an element of truth to framing Lincoln as racist. On one hand you have the fact that Lincoln viewed slavery as abhorrent and unsustainable (consistently at that). On the other hand he didn't think coexisting with black people as equals was possible or healthy and his intention was more or less to ship black people back to africa. In the end Lincoln was a white dude from the 1850s. I do believe it is inherently unfair to view him through modern day lenses though. Race wise he was still fairly ahead than the rest of the population (though I am sure you could nick pick at this and find even more forward thinking people if you look enough). Context wise, his adversaries straight up viewed black people as straight up subhuman...

 

[Sanity Check]

pls, learn what "woke" actually means, and learn something about the "left" other than what right wing bullshit tells you.

Stereotypes.

I have beef with the right. About as much as I do with the left.

Many on the right believe God exists so they never have to think about or know anything. They cry about being traumatized from watching pornography. They think they don't have to know 2 + 2 = 4. If they pray to God, He'll give them the answer.

Many on the right think they're super special snowflakes. Who are entitled to have freedom and rights, even if they don't fulfill their basic civic duties to defend, maintain or protect what they have.

Jimi Hendrix once said: "is life just a joke".

Today we may be one step closer to an answer.

...

Anyways, this topic could have reached its end.

Next topic plz.

 

[xi0]

Pretty much. It's plays a fairly obvious pattern for that matter. Obviously the confederacy was, well, like any other place and had millions of people and a ton of things going on simultaneously. So in practice it's easy to simply point at all the other stuff that was also going on to try and pretty much distract from how important a role slavery played into this.

That said, there is also an element of truth to framing Lincoln as racist. On one hand you have the fact that Lincoln viewed slavery as abhorrent and unsustainable (consistently at that). On the other hand he didn't think coexisting with black people as equals was possible or healthy and his intention was more or less to ship black people back to africa. In the end Lincoln was a white dude from the 1850s. I do believe it is inherently unfair to view him through modern day lenses though. Race wise he was still fairly ahead than the rest of the population (though I am sure you could nick pick at this and find even more forward thinking people if you look enough). Context wise, his adversaries straight up viewed black people as straight up subhuman...

Oh no, he most definitely was. But people want to frame it as him sticking it to the south and not really giving a shit about the practice of slavery itself, which is just nonsensical.