Hangout Black Clover Hangout Thread

Jhonathan

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But they were all enemies anyway, here we talk about guys that he defended and that in theory should kiss the ground on which he walks.




I beg to disagree, to be used and thrown like a rag used by the society of which you made yourself protector is something that would leave the sign in anyone.


But Asta does not stop him because is nobleman who abuses his power (non-existent since they were in an exam in which all were theoretically on the same level, but of being an unworthy Magic Knigth




Most of which are captains or part of royal families.


But...

What does it mean ?

In other words, in your opinion, were they willing to let themselves be killed like animals for ... principle?



Yes indeed
XD



Exactly where? It seems to me that they pass immediately and instantly from the "You must all die, damned humans" to "let us love one another and all against the bad wickedness"



Really ?

Chapter? Where does it show it?





But is not so,.

However, humans have exterminated the elves, we have seen it. The demon has only moved events, but humans have still acted as proofs.

If you refer to the fact that they did not have to take it out on humans in the present because they were not responsible, you are partly right (partly because the nobles deserved extermination) but they already knew it, yet they continued their work.

So it makes no sense that they change after the demon is discovered, because essentially this does not change the role of humans.




Good for you, I think so.

The trial is senseless, the search for a demon and its motivations are completely senseless and illogical ....




Desperate situation.

Deus ex machina.

So, an asspull.




Read above.

Solo perché una cosa è preventivata, non vuol dire che non sia un asspul

Un esempio ? Golden Experience Requiem in Jojo part 5.



The Asta's semon. Not that ridiculous thing



???

But if they didn't know anything about the demon ...




Exactly,


An asspull
No they shouldn't, Asta know about the rules and the system of this country, he knows how they're. Asta knew that for now, they aren't gonna change. During the trial he was sad, but he doesn't hold anger, because he knows that this is lot gonna change anything

He was sad, by his friends saved him. Asta know that this guy aren't gonna change for now. This left marks on him, marks of sadness, but his friends helped, him surpass this.

Asta saw Langris actions, who was a noble, and questioned his visions of what a knight is.

Families who were showed to have no power against the Kit house and Knight that hadn't any strength in the trial

They were willing to let the knights die and the country to be destroyed, to be safe. They don't care about anything, they only care about their lifes.

I wrote this one wrong. The manga show.

They show this during the fight. During the fight they become closer, the elves see thst the humans, aren't that bad.

After the war, when the elves are talking about their ways, you can set that they have some anger, but aren't prejudiced anymore and don't hold hate for the new generation.

The demon show that their hate was silly, they had reasons, to hold grudge against the humans, but killing everyone was just silly, and they didn't deserve it. The demons show that when they choosed this path, they're similar to their enemy and that what they're doing, was not as right as they though.

So we agree to disagree in this one

Is not a asspull, is not like Julius got this political powers out of nowhere or that this letter don't suit his character. Is clearly something that he would do and has the power to do.

The fact the thing is build during the arc, make it not a asspull. A asspull is a power that appear from nowhere or some event that happens, just because of plot, and not because of the in world rules. Vanessa power is not a asspull

We knew about the other demon. We knew thst there was something otherworldly helping the elves. The demons was build since the first third eye fight.

They didn't knew about the devil, but they're using forbidden magic, thst had relation with devilish magic. The elves didn't knew about the devil, but we knew thst there was something more about their powers.

No, is not a asspull. Is a ability of the character. But this logic every genius character is a asspull
 

Franz

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No they shouldn't,
Why ?

Asta know about the rules and the system of this country,
Taking it out with those who saved the kingdom is a rule now?


He was sad, by his friends saved him. Asta know that this guy aren't gonna change for now. This left marks on him, marks of sadness, but his friends helped, him surpass this.
Ok but make up your mind, or make a story light or a dramatic one, and if you want to put in a heavy situation make it have real consequences. Honestly, the protagonist of the manga despite having saved everything and everyone is taken and treated as the worst criminal with death threats attached to him and family must have consequences on the character and those around him, even temporary. Do you currently take all the part of the process and what changes? I mean it's like in One Piece two chapters after Ace Luffy's death he started laughing and joking ...


Asta saw Langris actions, who was a noble, and questioned his visions of what a knight is.
But he didn't take it with him as a nobleman, but as a Magic Knight ...

Families who were showed to have no power against the Kit house
But if they changed the outcome of the trial with just two words ...


They were willing to let the knights die and the country to be destroyed, to be safe.
Too bad they were threatened too


They show this during the fight. During the fight they become closer, the elves see thst the humans, aren't that bad.
A change too sudden, especially as the elves had been shown so far.


After the war, when the elves are talking about their ways, you can set that they have some anger,
Are you serious ? Anger ?


The demon show that their hate was silly, t
No because the guilt of humans is not erased.

o hold grudge against the humans, but killing everyone was just silly, and they didn't deserve it.
But we know this, the elves knew very well that the humans with whom they took it were not guilty. Yet up to five minutes before they all wanted them dead.

Is not a asspull, is not like Julius got this political powers out of nowhere
Situation presented as desperate, sudden help.

Asspull.

The fact the thing is build during the arc, make it not a asspull. A asspull is a power that appear from nowhere or some event that happens, just because of plot, and not because of the in world rules.
Exactly, Vanessa powers.

Then I would change the sentence.

An asspul can also be contextualized in the manga world, but it always remains the same.

GER was contextualized, but always asspull remains.



We knew about the other demon.
We only knew Asta's demon


We knew thst there was something otherworldly helping the elves.
But the demon was not helping the elves.

The demons was build since the first third eye fight.
No

The fact that Vetto used demonic magic is completely inconsistent, because the elves DIDN'T KNOW about the demon ...

They didn't knew about the devil, but they're using forbidden magic, thst had relation with devilish magic.
So why are they all caught off guard when they find themselves in front of him?

Didn't they know that forbidden magic was tied by demons?

No, is not a asspull. Is a ability of the character. But this logic every genius character is a asspull
You got it right
 

Jhonathan

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Why ?


Taking it out with those who saved the kingdom is a rule now?



Ok but make up your mind, or make a story light or a dramatic one, and if you want to put in a heavy situation make it have real consequences. Honestly, the protagonist of the manga despite having saved everything and everyone is taken and treated as the worst criminal with death threats attached to him and family must have consequences on the character and those around him, even temporary. Do you currently take all the part of the process and what changes? I mean it's like in One Piece two chapters after Ace Luffy's death he started laughing and joking ...



But he didn't take it with him as a nobleman, but as a Magic Knight ...


But if they changed the outcome of the trial with just two words ...



Too bad they were threatened too



A change too sudden, especially as the elves had been shown so far.




Are you serious ? Anger ?


No because the guilt of humans is not erased.



But we know this, the elves knew very well that the humans with whom they took it were not guilty. Yet up to five minutes before they all wanted them dead.

Situation presented as desperate, sudden help.

Asspull.


Exactly, Vanessa powers.

Then I would change the sentence.

An asspul can also be contextualized in the manga world, but it always remains the same.

GER was contextualized, but always asspull remains.




We only knew Asta's demon



But the demon was not helping the elves.


No

The fact that Vetto used demonic magic is completely inconsistent, because the elves DIDN'T KNOW about the demon ...


So why are they all caught off guard when they find themselves in front of him?

Didn't they know that forbidden magic was tied by demons?



You got it right
Because that is not how they learned to treat others and is not how they think. The nobles don't think the Knights are noble warriors, they think they're good shields for the country and them


They don't know that Asta saved the country. To them he's just a strange peasant with devil powers.


The trial had consequences, they are exiled form the kingdom and have to find a devil. Asta was sad, but as i said he already knew how this kingdom worked and how the prejudice is strong in the heart of the nobles. Besides that, he's happy, because he's a optimistic kid, and at end of the trial he gained a chance to prove his innocence and saw his friends stand up for him. This is totally different from the situation that Luffy faced on marinford, here no one that Asta knew died and he wasn't separated from his friends.


Does this change something. All this thing started with you saying that Asta never saw or faced a noble abusing his powers. So I used Langris actions as a example. It doesn't matter if Asta faced him as a peasant or as magic knight, at the end it was a noble, who showed despise for those who weren't talented, try to kill his friend, Asta doesn't know why he did that, but it doesn't change much. At end was a noble trying to kill someone dear to him.



Wich words? "Revolution time!". They don't have political power against Damantio. If his own father, from the same family didn't stand a chance against him, which chances, lower house would have?


They're threatened every time the country is invaded or in war, and they don't care. Because that's not their job, and they care more for being safe, than trying to safe the country


Is not too sudden, they see through the battle that the humans, are not as bad as they painted them. And saw that some of them are actually good people. On the case of Patry he only changed when Litch talked to him.


It's a little anger. It's like just a little dislike, nothing big.


Is not erased, but prejudice wasn't the right path. Their hate still silly because hating all the humans, didn't changed anything and only turned them into beings full of anger unable to see the mistakes in their actions.


They believed that the humans of today hold some guilty, since they're the descendents of the humans of the past, and they believed that they're as bad as them. Is during the arc and fight, that they noticed that this was silly and reconsider their visions.


It's not a asspull, we knew Julius could interfere with the trial, is not a asspull. Would be a asspull of the king had give this chance to Asta.


If it's contextualized and build in the story, is not a asspull. A asspull is something that happens out of nowhere, without much explantation and help the characters. If the thing was build during the arc, is not a asspull. Would be a asspull if we never knew about Vanessa powers, and in the last moment the story gave her this power.


We knew about he devilish power of the elves, and knew that they're using forbidden magic, from the other world. We knew that a devil would appear.


The devil was the one who brought their soul to this world.


This Vetto, revived by the devil himself, had access to forbidden magic. It's not a asspull or strange.


They knew that this magic had relation to other world and demons, but aren't expecting that a devil would be involved on their revival or that this devil would be trying to revive itself.


Not every genius character is asspull
 

Rikudou King

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Almost a volume has passed from the trial, I would say that the material to determine if and how much it has affected on Asta is there.
A volume isn't an arc, nor an act, which is the whole point of Checkov's Gun.

He literally told them that he would take the words away and he also attacked a real unleashing the reaction of Nozelle. I would say that it is a real conflict.
But again, that wasn't the "Nobles", it was a single person, and the whole conflicted ended then and there. And Asta said he would do that by becoming the Magic Emperor, which is the end goal of the series. There's no where else for that to go, whereas here, Asta got condemned by all the Nobles seemingly, and has to complete his current quest else he'll be back on the chopping block.

The presence of a character with a very useful magic that does nothing for the whole war? The aforementioned character who moves only to save the king from four strangers, but has practically done nothing when the king was one step away from being killed?

The aforementioned character who allows himself to lay down the law to people who risked their lives to save the kingdom or is really dead to do so?
Where has it been shown that Damnatio cares about the people or anything? We're directly told about his character, that he was uncaring and cold to the point of condemning his own father. We saw him fully ready to sacrifice Marie. Your argument only works if one assumed Damnatio cared about helping and protecting others, which we clearly see isn't the case. The only argument that could be questioned is why he didn't help the King earlier, and that's easily to presume because he wasn't around at that point.

In normal situations like a border war, sure, but when powerful beings arrive at home if you have the means to defend yourself alone well, you defend yourself. Or do you mean that they let themselves be killed this way on principle?

Notwithstanding that we always return there, most of the Magic Knights are noble.
No, we saw even with an invasion, the Magic Knights were the ones who handled it. We have had two invasions before now showing this. And again, as mentioned before, you're presuming the Nobles live in the city itself.

Then neither Damnatio nor Augustus have the slightest power. So what's the point of the royal title?

Or rather, what's the point of having three royal families when just one rule ?
Augustus doesn't have any power, despite being the King, we're literally shown this. Damnatio has power thanks to being in charge of the Magic Congress. The title is just a title, it doesn't have to mean anything, i.e. the British Royal family doesn't actually have any real political power.

Ok, but what are Damnatio's opinions important?
Because he's the head of the Magic Congress, as we're told.

Simple solution, you bring Patry and it is said that it is his fault, or simply explain the story of the demon that there are so many witnesses ..

Or not even this subplot is inserted, given that based on what we've seen, no one seems to care about possession.
And how does that help Damnatio and the Nobles get rid of Asta, which was their whole goal? You keep ignoring that the Nobles weren't looking for an actual solution, they were trying to get Asta.

And what are you talking about, every chapter since the trial has been focus on gathering more information about the devils and curses, with the end goal of saving Asta. We had several characters outright state that as their reason for doing this.

Simply reread the manga to understand it.
I have reread the manga, and I've seen nothing of the sort. So just provide some actual proof.

Chapter of his death.
Where does Julius say anything about fixing the system? All he said was he wanted his voice to be heard, so magic could be free... He wanted more possibilities, nothing about challenging the caste system.

Too bad that there are several nobles on the part of Asta. Also as I said many times mana you do nothing and if you don't use it, a commoners could very well beat a nobleman with no experience in battle.
There are far more on the opposing side, then the handful that would be with Asta. And that's not true in the slightest. Battle experience has nothing to do with using magic, we have been shown this countless times.

He really convinced everyone to save their lives. In any case, this is another interesting idea that has not been studied in depth.
Studied in depth how? We know why Julius did what he did, because as he literally states, it's the Nobles who have the absolute authority and Julius is powerless against them.

Wait, you say so because during the war we mainly see the first fronts in action, but in reality Gaara, Oonoki and Mei from the beginning are active in their respective fronts (Kage resuscitated and Damyio).
Gaara is the only one who begins on the front line. Mei is off protecting the Daimyos in their hideaway without ever coming into conflict, and Onoki is with the others at the command station. The fighting was well underway, and people had already been killed by the time Onoki joined, while Ee and Tsunade continued to sit around, which is the whole point.

So why didn't he continue?

What changes the opinion of Julius or the other captains? Both he and the nobles have absolute power ...
Because as we saw, the other Nobles were fine with Asta being exile, thus Damnatio lost his excuse.

I don't know, being treated as the worst criminal after saving the kingdom?

The threats to his family?

Nothing?
Asta grew up being looked down upon, that was nothing new. And there was no threat to his family.

He really only reduced it, they could still use it.

And even with reduced magic we have people who cut dimensions, who control fate, who absorb mana, who even eats it ....

I want to see how long Damnatio survives against Charmy hybrid mode. Also with the reduced magic, what kept Yami from smashing his face with his fists?
How could they use their magic when in that state? You're ignoring how they have to use their magic in order to do those things, which wasn't available in this situation. You're also ignoring that Damnatio probably had more up his sleeves then just a single spell.

Sure, for one, and I say one, vignette.
I don't know what this means.

But just read the manga.

In light of what has been seen, Hitsugaya's phrase has no meaning, since one of the strongest enemies is defeated without even using the Bankai from one of the strongest captains and Aizen himself considers the Epsadas too weak to serve him.

In other words, if all the high-level captains and shinigami had their bankai immediately, at least the Aizen army was halved in two seconds.
You're the one who needs to read it. You're ignoring that a) Starrk fought against both Shunsui and Ukitake, then Love and Rose (who would have been on par with the Espadas), before again fighting Shunsui and lost due to the rules of the game; b) That we saw Bankai used against the others and how ineffective that was; And c) That Hitsugaya specifically said if Aizen had more then ten... If just three were able to stall half of the Captains, how was Hitsugaya wrong in saying more? That's not even getting into what was said, that Soul Society would be doomed. As we saw later on, Soul Societry could be destroyed without having to actually fight the Captains. Baraggan alone could have wiped out Soul Society with just his ability. Aizen considered everyone beneath him, because he was so OP already.

Ah no? How strange I remember that the elves who entered the Silva home made a massacre, not to mention the nobles who fled in terror during the battle between Yami and Charla.

All very strong I guess.
The first involved the Silva fighting back, and the second fled because Yami, a magic knight, literally telling them to. How does either one of those disprove my comment?

Based on what ?
Based on the fact that Damnatio and the Magic Congress were using Asta as a scapegoat, something we were literally told they were gonna do by Julius beforehand.

He didn't do everything by himself, but it was decisive to say the least. Indeed we say that if he was not there the demon would have killed everything and everyone.
Which doesn't change what was said. Any number of things not happening as they did could have led to them losing that fight.

Just reread the manga.
I have. Why don't you just provide the proof, like I do for my own arguments.

Not in a Shonen Jump manga.
Sure. the manga Kurohime protagonist started as a villain before becoming an antihero. And the manga Bastard!! was another series staring a villain becoming an antihero. I would argue that the protagonist of Yugioh and Claymore weren't a hero either.

The nobles all reside in the noble region, where the capital is located and we have seen numerous nobles being killed or attacked by the elves ....
But the "Noble region" is quite bigger then just the Capital, meaning that the Nobles living in that region doesn't mean they're all in the capital. Some could have been at that beach town. Also, no, we didn't see "numerous" Nobles being attacked or killed...

Ok, but the reasons? A bigger scheme than just "I want a body?"
Why does there have to be a bigger scheme? You complained that he didn't have a motive and I showed that was incorrect, now you're moving the goalpost.
 

Franz

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Because that is not how they learned to treat others and is not how they think. The nobles don't think the Knights are noble warriors, they think they're good shields for the country and them
Then they are negative characters to eliminate, not to protect or to listen to.


They don't know that Asta saved the country.
Yet.

They don't know, but there are so many characters who can testify to it, even very influential ones.


The trial had consequences, they are exiled form the kingdom and have to find a devil.
It is not a consequence.

It could be done very well even with a simple mission by Julius.

I repeat what consequences did it have for the characters?

Asta has remained the usual idiot and he has not wavered and he has questioned himself, the chapter after everyone laughs and jokes, I don't think people started to despise Aster or throw tomatoes at him, despite the negative propaganda .. ...

The threats to Asta's family played no role.


Does this change something. All this thing started with you saying that Asta never saw or faced a noble abusing his powers.
And it's true until the trial.

You could use this ridiculous subplot to really make Asta's eyes disappear about the true nature of Clover, but not.

And it's a wasted opportunity.

I repeat, the case of Langris has nothing to do with it, because it is not a nobleman who abuses his power, but a magical knight who

1) It does not do its duty by saving the citizens

2) Try to kill another knight, which no one approves and therefore no, it is not a normal thing.


Wich words? "Revolution time!". They don't have political power against Damantio.
Sure, but they have enough power to make him retreat from his murderous intentions ...


They're threatened every time the country is invaded or in war, and they don't care
Because such a situation had never been seen, ancient beings who come back to life and demolish the capital threatening their life and that of the king.

If you have the means to defend yourself, you do, period. Otherwise, you're just an idiot who deserves to die.

Is not too sudden, they see through the battle that the humans, are not as bad as they painted them.
They literally go by "we want you all dead" to "we're all friends" So yes, it's sudden.

And decide again. Or the post-reincarnation elves are murderous monsters with which one cannot reason but only free, or are the types with which it is possible to reason.


It's a little anger.
Show it then


Is not erased, but prejudice wasn't the right path.
It seems to me completely erased ...


They believed that the humans of today hold some guilty, since they're the descendents of the humans of the past, and they believed that they're as bad as them.
So why should they change their minds considering that the humans of the past were evil?

Indeed, have they still seen what happened afterwards?


It's not a asspull, we knew Julius could interfere with the trial, is not a asspull. Would be a asspull of the king had give this chance to Asta.


If it's contextualized and build in the story, is not a asspull. A asspull is something that happens out of nowhere, without much explantation and help the characters. If the thing was build during the arc, is not a asspull. Would be a asspull if we never knew about Vanessa powers, and in the last moment the story gave her this power.
Again with this history of the context, it is not true,


One thing can be contextualized as you want, but if it is introduced at the moment to resolve a hopeless situation, it remains an asspull.

Let's take an example, if I say that X has a hidden power that allows him to alter reality and awakens him at the last second to beat Y that until then was unbeatable, it is not that if because the thing was budgeted it remains less asspulll


We knew about he devilish power of the elves, and knew that they're using forbidden magic
And the elves who should be the top experts in magic forbidden according to the Witch Queen, were they not aware of the fact that these were related to demons?


The devil was the one who brought their soul to this world.
But this is a later addition, until then they knew and we knew that it was Licth who did it.

Not every genius character is asspull
I disagree.

A volume isn't an arc, nor an act, which is the whole point of Checkov's Gun.
But I'd say it's enough to judge.

To say it is as if two chapters after the death of Ace Luffy had laughed or joked .....

But again, that wasn't the "Nobles", it was a single person,
Three, even four counted Nozzle


Where has it been shown that Damnatio cares about the people or anything?
When do you save the king?

Doesn't he care that the population of his kingdom is exterminated?

Ok to be idiots, but here we exaggerate by ....

No, we saw even with an invasion, the Magic Knights were the ones who handled it.
But not an invasion like this, where enemies arrive in the heart of the country ....


The title is just a title, it doesn't have to mean anything, i.e. the British Royal family doesn't actually have any real political power
Too bad they are two completely different examples.

So decide, do they have power or not?

Because he's the head of the Magic Congress, as we're told.
And that means ......?

We are never told why he exercises his power or why he should have more power than those who literally died for the country ....

And how does that help Damnatio and the Nobles get rid of Asta, which was their whole goal?
So, they are villains to be eliminated, Simple solution,

Where does Julius say anything about fixing the system? All he said was he wanted his voice to be heard, so magic could be free...
Exactly !!!!

Battle experience has nothing to do with using magic, we have been shown this countless times.
Of course yes, otherwise all the captains would be noble ...

They set him up in Noelle's power up chapter that high magic power can also be re-evoked with years of study and exercises.

it's the Nobles who have the absolute authority and Julius is powerless against them.
So why is a letter from him enough to change his mind?

Gaara is the only one who begins on the front line. Mei is off protecting the Daimyos in their hideaway without ever coming into conflict, and Onoki is with the others at the command station.
Because they can't stay in multiple places at once. The point however is that they participated in the war working to save as many people as possible when the situation demanded it.

Damnatio, on the other hand, did not do anything literally. And this does not explain or justify anyone in the manga.
Asta grew up being looked down upon, that was nothing new.
But this has never had consequences in history.

Now yes, so it cannot be treated with similar lightness.

How could they use their magic when in that state?
The magic of Rouge still works.

Charmy had not brought out the wolf, and there is Henry who literally absorbs the magic.

Moreover, even with reduced magic, physical strength remains.

Yami could very well smash his face with punches.

're ignoring that a) Starrk fought against both Shunsui and Ukitake, then Love and Rose (who would have been on par with the Espadas), before again fighting Shunsui and lost due to the rules of the game; b) That we saw Bankai used against the others and how ineffective that was; And c) That Hitsugaya specifically said if Aizen had more then ten... If just three were able to stall half of the Captains, how was Hitsugaya wrong in saying more?
Half of the captains who did not use their bankai.

If Stark who was the strongest in the middle was killed by Kyoraku's single shikai, what hope did they all have with his bankai?

Not to mention Yamamoto.

Hitsugaya's phrase must be taken for what it is, an attempt to create tension and ask the reader to "Oh no how will the good guys do it?"

Aizen himself ends up disgusting the Espada because they are "too weak" .....

The first involved the Silva fighting back,
Too bad the Silvas came into play when they were all, like, dead ......

Which doesn't change what was said. Any number of things not happening as they did could have led to them losing that fight.
But if it hadn't been for the anti-magic, they wouldn't have never won ....
Sure. the manga Kurohime protagonist started as a villain before becoming an antihero. And the manga Bastard!! was another series staring a villain becoming an antihero. I would argue that the protagonist of Yugioh and Claymore weren't a hero either.
Bastard was on the jump for only a year then he switched to Ultra Jump.

For Yugioh, Atem's antihero phase also did not last long, seven volumes out of about 38 .....

But the "Noble region" is quite bigger then just the Capital, meaning that the Nobles living in that region doesn't mean they're all in the capital.
And what does this change? The capital was however destroyed many nobles died ...

Why does there have to be a bigger scheme?
Ehm....
Perhaps because we are talking about what has been the main villain so far?

That is, the elves who eventually turned out to be pawns had a bigger plan and their mastermind didn't?

Even Kaguya, Kaguya holy heaven, had a minimum of plan or motivation
 
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Jhonathan

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Then they are negative characters to eliminate, not to protect or to listen to.




Yet.

They don't know, but there are so many characters who can testify to it, even very influential ones.



It is not a consequence.

It could be done very well even with a simple mission by Julius.

I repeat what consequences did it have for the characters?

Asta has remained the usual idiot and he has not wavered and he has questioned himself, the chapter after everyone laughs and jokes, I don't think people started to despise Aster or throw tomatoes at him, despite the negative propaganda .. ...

The threats to Asta's family played no role.




And it's true until the trial.

You could use this ridiculous subplot to really make Asta's eyes disappear about the true nature of Clover, but not.

And it's a wasted opportunity.

I repeat, the case of Langris has nothing to do with it, because it is not a nobleman who abuses his power, but a magical knight who

1) It does not do its duty by saving the citizens

2) Try to kill another knight, which no one approves and therefore no, it is not a normal thing.



Sure, but they have enough power to make him retreat from his murderous intentions ...



Because such a situation had never been seen, ancient beings who come back to life and demolish the capital threatening their life and that of the king.

If you have the means to defend yourself, you do, period. Otherwise, you're just an idiot who deserves to die.


They literally go by "we want you all dead" to "we're all friends" So yes, it's sudden.

And decide again. Or the post-reincarnation elves are murderous monsters with which one cannot reason but only free, or are the types with which it is possible to reason.



Show it then




It seems to me completely erased ...



So why should they change their minds considering that the humans of the past were evil?

Indeed, have they still seen what happened afterwards?




Again with this history of the context, it is not true,


One thing can be contextualized as you want, but if it is introduced at the moment to resolve a hopeless situation, it remains an asspull.

Let's take an example, if I say that X has a hidden power that allows him to alter reality and awakens him at the last second to beat Y that until then was unbeatable, it is not that if because the thing was budgeted it remains less asspulll



And the elves who should be the top experts in magic forbidden according to the Witch Queen, were they not aware of the fact that these were related to demons?




But this is a later addition, until then they knew and we knew that it was Licth who did it.


I disagree.


But I'd say it's enough to judge.

To say it is as if two chapters after the death of Ace Luffy had laughed or joked .....



Three, even four counted Nozzle



When do you save the king?

Doesn't he care that the population of his kingdom is exterminated?

Ok to be idiots, but here we exaggerate by ....


But not an invasion like this, where enemies arrive in the heart of the country ....




Too bad they are two completely different examples.

So decide, do they have power or not?


And that means ......?

We are never told why he exercises his power or why he should have more power than those who literally died for the country ....
Yep they're bad character, they're never showed another way, but they can't just kill them, this would make them evil and put them on the level of the nobles, just killing those they don't like. Asta and co, want to change the country in a pacific way.


They don't have influence towards Damantio. Their word wouldn't be heard, since they wouldn't create balance and Damantio would consider them useless.


The consequence is the exile. Asta doesn't need to become angrier, he lived his entire live being looked down, he already knew about the noble way of thinking. They don't need to organize a revolution, to have a consequence. Besides that, Julius couldn't simply send a entire squad to other countries, to search for beings that they don't even know if exists. The trial give him a excuse for that.


It's a nobleman, who is also a magic knight. Besides they, Asta already know the true color of the nobles, he simply is not gonna kill them all. The entire point of the previous arc, was that killing and hate are bad things, that just create catastrophes and bring sadness to those who take part on it. Asta is a pacifist. Like remember when he didn't let Rhya, a terrorist who threatened him and his friends, kill himself or when he did the same thing with Ladros, because he believes that death is not the right way?



His father didn't have power, to avoid his death. I doubt that the captains would have this power. Only Julius had this power, and he used it, and he wasn't even able to end the trial, just to put it in hold.



If they cared about the country or other people, they would think about fight, but they only think about their life, so they wouldn't fight, and would just hide as cowards, hoping that the magical knights win. They nobles were always presented as cowards. Remember when Langris tried to attack the house of the king, and there was a lot of nobles there, just hiding? That what they usually do, hide and wait someone solve the problem for them, only when they're threatened they try to do something.


They're people full of rage, who had prejudice against humans because of the events of the past, but during the fight they see that there are good humans and they're misjudging the humans of this area.



You want them to do what? Offend humans? They have a little anger, enough for them to not be around anymore and don't try to be buddy buddy with Asta and company, but they don't despise them anymore. Is clear that on future, they're going to work on this, and become friends with the humans



Well difference in interpretation them



They changed because they saw that the humans of today aren't like the ones in the past and that prejudice was a silly thing


If you build the idea, so is not a asspull independent of the moment it's used. Let's take for example, the magic system of the manga: On the world of Black Clover is a rule that when a character is in danger or when he gets a new resolve, he gets a new power. If a character end up getting a power, when he is cornered in a fight, it's not a asspull because the laws of the world permit that. You can dislike the scene and the power up, but is not a asspull.



They knew, but didn't knew that there was a demon among them. They knew thst forbidden magic came from the other world, they have expertise in mana, but they didn't knew a demon was the one who revived them or that this demon was among them. Using the magic wouldn't show them that the demon was there.



And when Litch returned, different from everyone he just seemed like a zombie without life motivation. It was fishy, and was possible to notice that it wasn't him



We agree to disagree them
 

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ep they're bad character, they're never showed another way, but they can't just kill them, this would make them evil and put them on the level of the nobles, just killing those they don't like. Asta and co, want to change the country in a pacific way.
Unfortunately you don't make revolutions in a peaceful way.

And that doesn't make them so different from Midnigth Sun members or elves ...


They don't have influence towards Damantio. Their word wouldn't be heard, since they wouldn't create balance and Damantio would consider them useless.
And I repeat, why? Based on what ?


The consequence is the exile.
Which is a mission assigned to him by Julius in the end, ergo you could get the same result without inserting this idiotic trial.

And the consequences must not be uniquely at the plot level, but also at a psychological level


t's a nobleman, who is also a magic knight.
And Asta judges it based on the second, not the first.


Besides they, Asta already know the true color of the nobles
But until now this has never impacted him or those close to him, now yes.


His father didn't have power, to avoid his death. I doubt that the captains would have this power.
Do we know anything about how strong this father was?

Maybe it was an Augustus type

f they cared about the country or other people, they would think about fight, but they only think about their life,
So why didn't they fight, since it was their very life that was at stake?

And why did Damantio put all this farce on if he didn't care about the kingdom?


They're people full of rage, who had prejudice against humans because of the events of the past, but during the fight they see that there are good humans and they're misjudging the humans of this area.
Then decide.

Or they are murderous monsters you can't reason with but only free them from resurrection, or they are people you can reason with.

It would have been enough to show them a little more faceted


You want them to do what?
If it were up to me, I would not have introduced that ridiculous evil of the word demon and would have continued with the clashes with the elves. Much more interesting.

They changed because they saw that the humans of today aren't like the ones in the past


No, they changed only thanks to the demon's revelation.

Before they were convinced of their work.

If you build the idea, so is not a asspull independent of the moment it's used.
I disagree

n the world of Black Clover is a rule that when a character is in danger or when he gets a new resolve, he gets a new power. If a character end up getting a power, when he is cornered in a fight, it's not a asspull because the laws of the world permit that.
As mentioned above, although the context does not change the nature of the deus ex machina.


They knew, but didn't knew that there was a demon among them. They knew thst forbidden magic came from the other world,
So why do they remain puzzled when they see the demon?

And when Litch returned, different from everyone he just seemed like a zombie without life motivation.
And the thing could be exploited, perhaps giving him the role of conflict solver ....

Always deus ex machina would have been, but surely more sensed than .... what we have had.
 

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Unfortunately you don't make revolutions in a peaceful way.

And that doesn't make them so different from Midnigth Sun members or elves ...




And I repeat, why? Based on what ?



Which is a mission assigned to him by Julius in the end, ergo you could get the same result without inserting this idiotic trial.

And the consequences must not be uniquely at the plot level, but also at a psychological level



And Asta judges it based on the second, not the first.



But until now this has never impacted him or those close to him, now yes.




Do we know anything about how strong this father was?

Maybe it was an Augustus type



So why didn't they fight, since it was their very life that was at stake?

And why did Damantio put all this farce on if he didn't care about the kingdom?




Then decide.

Or they are murderous monsters you can't reason with but only free them from resurrection, or they are people you can reason with.

It would have been enough to show them a little more faceted




If it were up to me, I would not have introduced that ridiculous evil of the word demon and would have continued with the clashes with the elves. Much more interesting.





No, they changed only thanks to the demon's revelation.

Before they were convinced of their work.


I disagree



As mentioned above, although the context does not change the nature of the deus ex machina.




So why do they remain puzzled when they see the demon?



And the thing could be exploited, perhaps giving him the role of conflict solver ....

Always deus ex machina would have been, but surely more sensed than .... what we have had.
In a manga, you can do revolutions in peaceful ways. The point of the story and the objective of Asta, is to create a world were everyone can live together, he doesn't want to kill people, this wouldn't solve the problem and would only give fuel for more hate.



Based on Damantio judgment. At the end of the day, Asta was saved because the wizard king, one of the leaders of the country intervened, and this brought balance to the situation. And the nobles only accepted this, because this was a request for the wizard king, it wouldn't have worked if any other person had said anything.



Not every event needs to lead the protagonist in a 180 turn, mainly when this situation was already normal for him. And again, Julius couldn't just send a entire squad on a mission in another country to search for things that they don't know of exist, without a reason. The trial gives him a reason.



Asta didn't just judged Langris as a knight, but as a person. In his speech Asta, talks about how he despise the idea that nobles are better than peasants and how at end of the day, both those from high castes and low castes, are equal and shouldn't fight among themselves.




He lives in this country, poverty is something that affects his family, he's despise by the nobles, a lot of his friends suffered at the hands of the nobles. Asta was impacted by the system of this country. That's way he wants to change it.




I was talking about political power, like was showed during the trial, raw strength don't do much in this kind of situation. Asta was stronger than the entire parliment, but this didn't change the fact that they judged and almost killed him.




Damantio cares about the kingdom, but he doesn't fight, because this isn't his job, his job is to keep the country in balance, fighting and defending the land is the job of the magic knights. The nobles didn't wanted to go into the battlefield, this would expose them to danger, instead they hide and hoped that the elves didn't find them. Only when the elves tried to directly kill them, they stand up to fight, and like August showed, it was useless, since they're too weak.




They're people full of rage, who had prejudice against humans because of the events of the past, but during the fight they see that there are good humans and they're misjudging the humans of this era. (And even though i liked the elves arc, but i think that would be cool to had more chapters with them.)



Well this could've been a cool idea, but i also like the devil segment.



Yeah the devil helped to make them closer.




We agree to disagree them




Is the context, that makes the event don't become a deus ex machina




Because they didn't knew thst he was using them.




Disagree, the devil isn't a deus ex machina and the end Litch served as a problem solver.
 

Rikudou King

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But I'd say it's enough to judge.

To say it is as if two chapters after the death of Ace Luffy had laughed or joked .....
You bring up the argument that a good story has to have a payoff for something by the next arc, and then disregards your very own argument, that makes no sense. And how are the two comparable? Asta has no reason to not be happy, the entire point was he was saved by his new family. Also, we didn't even see any reaction about Ace's death til well after, so that doesn't even work.

Three, even four counted Nozzle
Only one was arguing with Asta.

When do you save the king?

Doesn't he care that the population of his kingdom is exterminated?

Ok to be idiots, but here we exaggerate by ....
There's clearly a difference between saving someone you're related to, and a random person, and we were shown his feelings towards a random person when he was willing to kill Marie just to get his way. And we don't even know why he saved the King, there could easily be more going on with that situation then we know.

But not an invasion like this, where enemies arrive in the heart of the country ....
What are you talking about, the previous two both took place in the capital itself, thus the literal heart of the country.

Too bad they are two completely different examples.

So decide, do they have power or not?
What are you talking about, that's a prefect example of this. We haven't seen any indication the title has any power behind it, whereas we're specifically told why Damnatio is so feared, because he leads the Magic Congress, and even then, we were shown he was at the mercy of the nobles.

And that means ......?

We are never told why he exercises his power or why he should have more power than those who literally died for the country ....
It means their the judicial power of the kingdom, something Julius literally told us before his introduction. How do you not understand what a judge and jury is? And why would they not have more power, that's literally how a government works...

So, they are villains to be eliminated, Simple solution,
It's not a simple solution. As mentioned, you can't just kill people you dislike, especially such a large group of people.

Exactly !!!!
So where is the mention of getting rid of the nobility? Letting people be heard has nothing to do at all with removing those currently in power, which is what you were claiming.

Of course yes, otherwise all the captains would be noble ...

They set him up in Noelle's power up chapter that high magic power can also be re-evoked with years of study and exercises.
Aside from the fact that plenty of nobility are Magic Knights, you're presuming they all would want to risk their own lives, which is a pretty big point.

Noelle herself is literally an example showing that battle experience is not necessarily, she literally starts with massive magic specifically due to being a noble. The first chapter has Yuno being quite powerful despite only just gaining his book, and only after a few months of training he's one of the top new comers of the knights. Heck, Mimosa was praised for her high-level healing magic before she even became a magic knight. The whole point is that the series shows us that training is simply enough, which we know the nobles do.

So why is a letter from him enough to change his mind?
The only thing that changed was Asta's punishment, and that was because the nobles themselves didn't care what happen to Asta as long as he was gone.

Because they can't stay in multiple places at once. The point however is that they participated in the war working to save as many people as possible when the situation demanded it.

Damnatio, on the other hand, did not do anything literally. And this does not explain or justify anyone in the manga.
So your argument is that because they were sitting around literally doing nothing, they were incapable of actually being out on the field saving people til the last moment, even though as Gaara showed, they could have helped if they wished? We know they didn't have to be there, because we saw them leave to go stop Naruto without there being any issue.

Except according to your own claim, what Damnatio did was just fine, since "he couldn't be in two places at once" and there was no point where the tide of battle was against them.

But this has never had consequences in history.

Now yes, so it cannot be treated with similar lightness.
What consequences are you expecting from such a background? This is a shounen, and Asta developed like the standard shounen character with such a background.

The magic of Rouge still works.

Charmy had not brought out the wolf, and there is Henry who literally absorbs the magic.

Moreover, even with reduced magic, physical strength remains.

Yami could very well smash his face with punches.
Rouge's magic has limitations, Charmy can't just bring out the wolf, nor would it matter if it was a tiny thing, and Henry's magic would affect his friends as well... You don't know how physically strong Damnatio is, so that's a baseless argument.

Half of the captains who did not use their bankai.

If Stark who was the strongest in the middle was killed by Kyoraku's single shikai, what hope did they all have with his bankai?

Not to mention Yamamoto.

Hitsugaya's phrase must be taken for what it is, an attempt to create tension and ask the reader to "Oh no how will the good guys do it?"

Aizen himself ends up disgusting the Espada because they are "too weak" .....
Right, out of the six, the only other two who didn't use Bankai were Ukitake, who we don't know what it did, and Yamamoto, who was prevented from using it by Wonderweiss. I like how you ignore that the other two took their opponent's Bankai easily without damage... Again, we know why Shunsui didn't use his Bankai, we know it's effect - It drowns both Shunsui and his opponent til one runs out of spiritual power, and given that Starrk had more, Shunsui would have lost. And why are you writing off his Shikai like it was nothing? You do realize his Shikai was a literal instant kill, he outright states that the loser of the game will die. Starrk lost, thus the reason he died. It was clearly more then just a stab, since as previous mentioned, he had been fighting several opponents even before that point.

Hitsugaya's comment was a warning about what could happen. Since Aizen never got more then four, and the ones he did get were more then enough to nearly win before the captains got saved by the Vizards, there is nothing false about Hitsugaya's statement. Again, Barragan was OP enough that he could have singlehandedly destroyed Soul Society. Who could have defeated him?

Aizen never cared about them, that was literally the entire thing shown with Baraggan's death.

Too bad the Silvas came into play when they were all, like, dead ......
What? None of the Silva's were at a disadvantage at that point.

But if it hadn't been for the anti-magic, they wouldn't have never won ....
The anti-magic wasn't enough for a win. We were clearly shown that, Asta himself could never have overcome that situation.

Bastard was on the jump for only a year then he switched to Ultra Jump.

For Yugioh, Atem's antihero phase also did not last long, seven volumes out of about 38 .....
That's still Jump, and Yami was straight up killing people, hardly just an antihero. Regardless, that changes what I said how?

And what does this change? The capital was however destroyed many nobles died ...
Excuse me, please show me where it was said that any nobles, much less many nobles died...

Ehm....
Perhaps because we are talking about what has been the main villain so far?

That is, the elves who eventually turned out to be pawns had a bigger plan and their mastermind didn't?

Even Kaguya, Kaguya holy heaven, had a minimum of plan or motivation
Except he wasn't the main villain and was never made out to be such. Their plans were basically the same, except the devil wasn't planing on murdering a bunch of people afterward.

Kaguya didn't have a plan though. Kaguya was completely inactive as a villain, which is one of the reasons why she was terrible. Black Zetsu was the one with the plan, and the one pushing things forward. But even then, it wasn't some "bigger scheme", so again, why does there have to be a bigger scheme here? The entire point of the devil, as I said back then and we are clearly being shown now, was to set up the future arcs.
 

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In a manga, you can do revolutions in peaceful ways.
Sure, but it depends on the context and when the author is good at making it, something that Tabata lacks being a fairly mediocre writer for the average Jump too.


Based on Damantio judgment. At the end of the day, Asta was saved because the wizard king, one of the leaders of the country intervened,

But wasn't it said that the magic emperor was powerless against the powerful and feared nobles? Now isn't it any more? I'm confused.


Not every event needs to lead the protagonist in a 180 turn,
The most important ones, yes, especially if we talk about a character who has never grown from two hundred chapters or more.

Asta didn't just judged Langris as a knight

Of course he did, he told him clearly that he was not worthy of being a knight ...


He lives in this country, poverty is something that affects his family,
But it is an indirect thing. A direct or attempted threat from the royals or nobles on his family would be a shocking thing.

he's despise by the nobles
Which up until now has never had any consequences, now it is therefore cannot be ignored.

a lot of his friends suffered at the hands of the nobles.
But does Asta know? And what impact did it have on him?


Asta was stronger than the entire parliment, but this didn't change the fact that they judged and almost killed him.
How ?


Damantio cares about the kingdom, but he doesn't fight,
If they cared about the country or other people, they would think about fight,
It seems to me a slight contradiction honestly ...


They're people full of rage, who had prejudice against humans because of the events of the past,

However, this does not justify their return as ruthless murderers without any scruples.

Can you justify this with the excuse of wicked heart, but again, are the resurrected elves monsters murderers or people you can reason with?


Because they didn't knew thst he was using them.
But doesn't it make sense if they know that forbidden magic is related to demons because they are amazed when one appears?

and the end Litch served as a problem solver.
Exactly, so he could have done it even without the story of the demon.
 

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Sure, but it depends on the context and when the author is good at making it, something that Tabata lacks being a fairly mediocre writer for the average Jump too.





But wasn't it said that the magic emperor was powerless against the powerful and feared nobles? Now isn't it any more? I'm confused.




The most important ones, yes, especially if we talk about a character who has never grown from two hundred chapters or more.




Of course he did, he told him clearly that he was not worthy of being a knight ...



But it is an indirect thing. A direct or attempted threat from the royals or nobles on his family would be a shocking thing.


Which up until now has never had any consequences, now it is therefore cannot be ignored.



But does Asta know? And what impact did it have on him?




How ?






It seems to me a slight contradiction honestly ...





However, this does not justify their return as ruthless murderers without any scruples.

Can you justify this with the excuse of wicked heart, but again, are the resurrected elves monsters murderers or people you can reason with?




But doesn't it make sense if they know that forbidden magic is related to demons because they are amazed when one appears?


Exactly, so he could have done it even without the story of the demon.
I don't think so, Tabata is doing a pretty good work. In jump right now, i think he's a pretty good a author, with one of the best series. He's doing a good job with Black Clover, even though the story is simple, he make it interesting and compelling. The context of Black Clover, let's him create this peaceful revolution.



He didn't nullify the trial, he just found a way to put it in a hold for some time. He still being powerless. If he had power over the nobles, he could just end the trial.

Asta doesn't need to become a character full of anger, to show development. Asta didn't changed much, since the beginning, but this is not totally a problem, the work did a good job in characterizing him and showing his ideologies. We know that Asta doesn't just excuse his enemies, but he also doesn't kill them, he wants them to learn and become better persons. We know that Asta happy personality, in part is just a mechanism he uses to deal with the chest pains. He doesn't like when people look down on others, because of their birth conditions. We know that his interactions with the Black bulls, don't only changed them, but also xhsnged Asta, that could for the first time know what is being trusted by others. We learned a lot about Asta since the beginning of the work, he doesn't need to suddenly change. Honestly, if he just became a character full of anger and resentment, this would be pretty bad.

He told Langris that he despised him, despised his superiority complex and the way he despised commoners, even though they at end all of them are magic knights. Asta was against the ideas of Langris, not just as his actions as a magic knight


Would just be shocking, it wouldn't change Asta perception of the system and wouldn't add nothing to the story. Would be shocking, and just that.



It had consequences, being looked down, is what makes Asta doubt himself, that's the reason why he cry, when he discovered that people liked him. Also was being looked down by the nobles, that crested this situation, where he's on trial, because the nobles hate him and want him death.




Asta knows, about Finral, Noelle, i think he also knows about Gauche and Henry. The impact it had on him, was that he made friendship with this people, and relate to their pain.




The end of the trial, was going to be his execution if Julius didn't intervened. How would they kill him, new that's a good question. Probably Damantio had a way to kill him.



Damantio cares about the balance on the Kingdom, he doesn't want it to be destroyed, but he isn't a fighter, that's not his role, so he doesn't fight. A judge doesn't fight against a terrorist during a attack, he hides behind a soldier. The nobles on the other hand, doesn't really care about the country, they care about their status and lives. They doesn't fight, because this would put their lives on risk and they don't want to die. So they just hide, and wait until the knights settle thing.



They're people you can reason with, but at the time of the attack they weren't wanting to talk. They're blinded by rage. The elves, saw how this was a bad thing during the devil fight and understand that they're not doing the right thing.




Asta always uses the power of a Devil, and he still surprised when he faced the creature inside his book. The elves knew the relation, but wasn't expecting a devil to appear in this world. Like was said a lot of times, is not normal to them to appear.



He could, but the devil added things to the history and was interesting. So I don't have problem with his addition.
 
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Quick corrections on the Bleach Discussion.

Shunsui was told not to activate his Bankai by Ukitake because of it's far reaching effect. His "Play" would've pulled everyone in the nearby area into it. He was intending to use it against Starrk.

Starrk lost not because he was weaker, but because he was distracted and basically lost the will to fight. He fell for a trick that he easily saw through earlier during his and Shunsui's fight when he was actually trying. There is no telling how he would've fared against the Bankai.

As for Hitsugaya's VL comment, as already pointed out, Aizen never had more than 10, so Hitsugaya's prediction never panned out. There is also the possibility that, as often shown in the series, he was going off of old and outdated information about their strength level.
 

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Shunsui was told not to activate his Bankai by Ukitake because of it's far reaching effect. His "Play" would've pulled everyone in the nearby area into it. He was intending to use it against Starrk.
Exactly, so if he used it he would have won immediately.

And it is not just for him, that no one uses the popular bankai during such an important struggle does not make sense, it is as if Goku sifdato Majin Bu by suffering directly from Kaioken.
Starrk lost not because he was weaker, but because he was distracted and basically lost the will to fight.

Please.

The strongest espada on the field beaten by a single shikai?

These are interpretations that we do. What remains in history is an enemy presented as very strong beaten with paltry ease without even resorting to its strongest repertoire.
As for Hitsugaya's VL comment, as already pointed out, Aizen never had more than 10, so Hitsugaya's prediction never panned out.
Hitsugaya clearly says that if Aizen had gathered Vasto Lorde for the SS it would have been the end.

Given that what is seen in the manga is the exact opposite, it goes without saying that that sentence is exactly what it appears to be, or a phrase inserted solely for reasons of plot and useful only to amaze the reader.

All this talk to say that certain phrases, moments or acts in the shonen, especially those of the Jump written on a weekly basis with limited time, are written as the plot goes on without a big programming behind and often the authors act only to create false tension not caring for the rest.

Another case is when in One Piece Do Flamingo he said that he and his clan would take care of Fujitora (a rather blunt statement considering that Fujitora based on what he saw in the manga could have crushed them with his right hand).

And the same goes for Black Clover too.

The more the manga goes on the more I have the feeling that it is a sort of paper version of the last GOT seasons, full of plot holes and moments that challenge logic and are inserted only because the polt demends or to create shock at all costs.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

A volume isn't an arc,
But of criticizable material I would say that it offers enough.


Only one was arguing with Asta.
Alecdra, Solid, even Nozzle join the fight for a short moment


There's clearly a difference between saving someone you're related to, and a random person,

Then explain to me why he didn't lift a finger when the king was one step away from being killed? Did he sleep?


What are you talking about, the previous two both took place in the capital itself,
No, only Rades' attack on the capital, which, however, apart from killing some civilians at random did not do serious damage and certainly cannot be compared to the attack of the elves.


What are you talking about, that's a prefect example of this. We haven't seen any indication the title has any power behind it, whereas we're specifically told why Damnatio is so feared, because he leads the Magic Congress, and even then, we were shown he was at the mercy of the nobles.
What does Damnatio have to do with it?


It means their the judicial power of the kingdom, something Julius literally told us before his introduction.
I still don't understand how this should have some influence, but ok ...


It's not a simple solution. As mentioned, you can't just kill people you dislike, especially such a large group of people.
It was enough to let the elves do the work.



Noelle herself is literally an example showing that battle experience is not necessarily,

But what ?

But if it is the perfect example of a character who grew up thanks to the experience in battle?
The only thing that changed was Asta's punishment,
You said little, a moment before they all wanted him dead.


So your argument is that because they were sitting around literally doing nothing, they were incapable of actually being out on the field saving people til the last moment, even though as Gaara showed, they could have helped if they wished? We know they didn't have to be there, because we saw them leave to go stop Naruto without there being any issue.

Except according to your own claim, what Damnatio did was just fine, since "he couldn't be in two places at once" and there was no point where the tide of battle was against them.
it's amazing how you keep on breaking the conversation.

I repeat:

The Kages have fought on different fronts since the beginning. Apart from the Raikage who was the head of the Alliance and Tsunade, from the beginning they were shown fighting and above all they fought and risked their lives. And not only during the war, in the past we have seen several Hokages and no fight on the front line for the village or the country.

So the comparison as Damnatio and the nobles makes no sense (and frankly I find it also offensive)




What consequences are you expecting from such a background? This is a shounen,
It does not mean anything, Shonen does not mean "superficial or immature history".

If the author is capable he can also deal with serious and mature subjects


Rouge's magic has limitations, Charmy can't just bring out the wolf, nor would it matter if it was a tiny thing, and Henry's magic would affect his friends as well... You don't know how physically strong Damnatio is, so that's a baseless argument.

Despite the limitations it remains a power that controls fate.

We do not know the exact limits of the powers of Charmy, and Henry seems to me to be quite difficult to deal with given his nature.

If Damnatio is physically stronger than Yami, I wonder what the hell magic knights need then.



ight, out of the six, the only other two who didn't use Bankai were Ukitake
Yamamoto.

Kyoraku.

Even if they come later, let's put Urahara, Isshin and Yorouchi.

Not to mention the shinigami that the bankai had not yet developed as Zaraki or that was not yet at its peak as Komamura or Hitsugaya itself.


Yamamoto, who was prevented from using it by Wonderweiss.
Which appears only later.
And it doesn't change the fact that if you used the bankai right away it would have wiped out a good part if not the whole army .....


Again, we know why Shunsui didn't use his Bankai
No, or rather, they are false and meaningless explanations, because in such a situation you have to start with everything you have, don't be picky,


You can't escape, it's a plothole, not so different from those of Tabata .....

Hitsugaya's comment was a warning about what could happen
Hitsugaya's sentence is exactly what appears.

A sensationalist phrase thrown out solely to make the reader worry and increase tension but, on balance, it only sounds ridiculous.

Again it happens in all shonen, it is the narrative praxis.

What? None of the Silva's were at a disadvantage at that point.
And who talks about the Silva?

We talked about the nobles murdered by the elves.

All very strong I imagine, people that Julius must surely fear.


The anti-magic wasn't enough for a win.

Is it really the one that allowed you to kill the demon, without how they would do it?

Secre itself says so.


Yami was straight up killing people, hardly just an antihero
I repeat, phase relatively short duration.

Excuse me, please show me where it was said that any nobles, much less many nobles died...
Just read the manga .....


Except he wasn't the main villain and was never made out to be such
For this arc ?

Yes it is


Kaguya didn't have a plan though.

Yes, she had.

Wrongly explained, poorly founded and thrown out, but at least one person and some poor motivation had it.


Kaguya was completely inactive as a villain
Yes, because the demon that is half-combat suffers the attacks of others, isn't it?
 

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Exactly, so if he used it he would have won immediately.

And it is not just for him, that no one uses the popular bankai during such an important struggle does not make sense, it is as if Goku sifdato Majin Bu by suffering directly from Kaioken.
Probably, but he didn't. And I was just pointing out the reason Shunsui didn't use it since it was the topic. I never mentioned anyone else because most of them don't have excuses as far as we know. The only other person who has an excuse not to have used their Bankai was Shinji, whose Bankai can screw with his allies as well as revealed in the recent novels and maybe Rose if his Bankai effects everyone who could hear it.

Please.

The strongest espada on the field beaten by a single shikai?

These are interpretations that we do. What remains in history is an enemy presented as very strong beaten with paltry ease without even resorting to its strongest repertoire.
Again, Shunsui had planned to use his Bankai against Starrk until he Ukitake interrupted him. He posed enough of a threat to get that from Shunsui. In the end Shunsui managed to get the drop on Starrk and end him with his hax games. He wouldn't be the first decently strong character to get taken out by Shikai. Hell, Zaraki's first loss was against a shikai. Aizen took out the majority of the participants in Karakura Town with his shikai. It's all about the hax.

Hitsugaya clearly says that if Aizen had gathered Vasto Lorde for the SS it would have been the end.

Given that what is seen in the manga is the exact opposite, it goes without saying that that sentence is exactly what it appears to be, or a phrase inserted solely for reasons of plot and useful only to amaze the reader.

All this talk to say that certain phrases, moments or acts in the shonen, especially those of the Jump written on a weekly basis with limited time, are written as the plot goes on without a big programming behind and often the authors act only to create false tension not caring for the rest.

Another case is when in One Piece Do Flamingo he said that he and his clan would take care of Fujitora (a rather blunt statement considering that Fujitora based on what he saw in the manga could have crushed them with his right hand).

And the same goes for Black Clover too.

The more the manga goes on the more I have the feeling that it is a sort of paper version of the last GOT seasons, full of plot holes and moments that challenge logic and are inserted only because the polt demends or to create shock at all costs.
Hitsugaya clearly says more than 10. Aizen didn't even have 10.

The Quincy had basically 26 or so Captain Class individuals of varying strength, some stronger than the Espada and some weaker, and they destroyed the Soul Society. If 10 Arrancar on Ulquiorra's level or above managed to get through, things wouldn't have went well at all.

There are certainly series and moments in Bleach and Black Clover that fly in the face of logic or are just there for shock value. These things that you are listing aren't those moments. You want a moment? How about the reason why Unohana was sacrificed to power up Zaraki, despite the fact that her loss took away both a powerful fighting asset and healer all in one.

Or for Black Clover, how about the rather wonky levels of power? Yuno was styling on Patry and Liar at the same time while defending someone. The same Patry that was keeping up with Julius? Or how about the fact that the Royal Knight Exam, one of my favorite arcs, really doesn't make sense at all, lol. Why have this sort of exam when, in actuality, you'd probably be better off getting half the Captains, Vice Captains, and Senior Mages and sending them off instead of a hogde podge of admittedly powerfu knights of various ranks?
 

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Exactly, so if he used it he would have won immediately.

And it is not just for him, that no one uses the popular bankai during such an important struggle does not make sense, it is as if Goku sifdato Majin Bu by suffering directly from Kaioken.
You don't know how his bankai works, do you? It would not be an automatic win... He used his bankai against Lille Barro and still failed to kill him. And we saw bankais being used all throughout the series, including against the other two top Espadas, which you keep ignoring.

Please.

The strongest espada on the field beaten by a single shikai?

These are interpretations that we do. What remains in history is an enemy presented as very strong beaten with paltry ease without even resorting to its strongest repertoire.
A shikai that kills whoever loses the game, basically an instant kill if you're victorious. You keep ignoring that the two weaker Espada completely tank two bankais without issue, thereby disproving your argument.

Hitsugaya clearly says that if Aizen had gathered Vasto Lorde for the SS it would have been the end.

Given that what is seen in the manga is the exact opposite, it goes without saying that that sentence is exactly what it appears to be, or a phrase inserted solely for reasons of plot and useful only to amaze the reader.

All this talk to say that certain phrases, moments or acts in the shonen, especially those of the Jump written on a weekly basis with limited time, are written as the plot goes on without a big programming behind and often the authors act only to create false tension not caring for the rest.

Another case is when in One Piece Do Flamingo he said that he and his clan would take care of Fujitora (a rather blunt statement considering that Fujitora based on what he saw in the manga could have crushed them with his right hand).

And the same goes for Black Clover too.

The more the manga goes on the more I have the feeling that it is a sort of paper version of the last GOT seasons, full of plot holes and moments that challenge logic and are inserted only because the polt demends or to create shock at all costs.
MORE THEN TEN. Hitsugaya said that more then ten would do it. As mentioned, a similar amount of Quincies showed that was completely possible.

We literally saw Doflamingo catching and slicing up one of Fujitora's meteors without much trouble solo. What else do you think Fujitora had that would have caused any problems for Doflamingo, especially given his powers?

None of the things you think are plot holes are plot holes. Bad guys being bad are not a plot hole. Julius saying Asta could die, is not a plot hole. We know why Asta could have died, and we are shown why he did, because he was literally saved by the Black Bulls and then Julius' action. A plot hole requires there to be a piece missing, a "hole" to be there, and there is nothing like that here. A plot hole would be like how Julius didn't tell Yami his plan ahead of time despite knowing exactly what would go down, or how everyone acts like they only just met Secre despite her being with them for a few days before that point. These things are plot holes...

But of criticizable material I would say that it offers enough.
Not when you're trying to criticize the resolution of events, which you can't say til the actual event is over.

Alecdra, Solid, even Nozzle join the fight for a short moment
That doesn't change the original argument. The fact remains that the entire incident was over Noelle. Asta didn't give a damn about them talking crap about himself, it was only when Noelle was dismissed that he took a stand, and he specifically defeated Solid to end things. So as said, the conflict there had nothing to do with Asta, it was completely over Noelle and how her family treated her.

Then explain to me why he didn't lift a finger when the king was one step away from being killed? Did he sleep?
Perhaps he wasn't in the capital at that time. You're acting like he would know the status of the king at every single moment, which would be silly.

No, only Rades' attack on the capital, which, however, apart from killing some civilians at random did not do serious damage and certainly cannot be compared to the attack of the elves.
Rades' attack was shown as a massive attack, that resulted in several of the captains and top knights being sent out to deal with it. It was hardly some minor incident. Rades' attack was over a wider range then the elves attack, and I'm not sure how a massive attack over the entire capital isn't an invasion within the capital...

What does Damnatio have to do with it?
You literally made a comment remarking about Damnatio and the King not having power despite having the "Royal" title, so I pointed out that we're told where Damnatio's power comes from, leading the Magic Congress.

I still don't understand how this should have some influence, but ok ...
Why do you think any historical King or Nobility has power?

It was enough to let the elves do the work.
And the elves were clearly shown as villains, who's actions could never be forgiven.

But what ?

But if it is the perfect example of a character who grew up thanks to the experience in battle?
Noelle's problem was control, she was shown even before that as having powerful magic, and she was constantly being shown training before ever getting into a fight, showing us that's how things were normally done.

You said little, a moment before they all wanted him dead.
Because he scared them, before that point, they were shown disliking him but none but Damnatio displayed any desire for him to die.

it's amazing how you keep on breaking the conversation.

I repeat:

The Kages have fought on different fronts since the beginning. Apart from the Raikage who was the head of the Alliance and Tsunade, from the beginning they were shown fighting and above all they fought and risked their lives. And not only during the war, in the past we have seen several Hokages and no fight on the front line for the village or the country.

So the comparison as Damnatio and the nobles makes no sense (and frankly I find it also offensive)
That's a lie. You're being completely false here. Aside from Gaara, the Kages were NOT fighting in the beginning. Ee and Tsunade didn't even make a move til Naruto had left and then they return right after that, despite Obito making a move and literally bring out the Gedo Mazo and while hundreds were being killed by the Zetsus. I can literally show them ignoring the enemy leader making an appearance. It was the same with Pain's attack, when Tsunade saw the damage he was doing, her first course of action was calling Naruto back... So it's completely comparable, even more so when we use their actual equivalents the Daimyos or even Danzo.

It does not mean anything, Shonen does not mean "superficial or immature history".

If the author is capable he can also deal with serious and mature subjects
Shounen's are aimed at young boys. Since their target are children, there's a limit to what can be shown, and thus how graphic and detail mature events can be depicted. And you still haven't explain what exactly you're looking for to be shown here...

Despite the limitations it remains a power that controls fate.

We do not know the exact limits of the powers of Charmy, and Henry seems to me to be quite difficult to deal with given his nature.

If Damnatio is physically stronger than Yami, I wonder what the hell magic knights need then.
It doesn't control fate in general, nor is it limitless. We do know what triggers Charmy's transformation, and we know it's not a simple transformation since she never did it before. As mentioned, Herny's power would affect his friends as well, more so since he's nearer to then then to his enemies. Given how he has no control over it, he alone would completely dismantle the argument of the Black Bulls fighting back.

The Magic Knights are to deal with the fighting so the Nobles don't have to, it's not that complicated.

Yamamoto.

Kyoraku.

Even if they come later, let's put Urahara, Isshin and Yorouchi.

Not to mention the shinigami that the bankai had not yet developed as Zaraki or that was not yet at its peak as Komamura or Hitsugaya itself.
You do understand the meaning of the word "other", yes? I was already counting Shunsui, and I mentioned Yamamoto... I'm not sure why you would be trying to count characters who weren't there at the time for this discussion...

Which appears only later.
And it doesn't change the fact that if you used the bankai right away it would have wiped out a good part if not the whole army .....
The point is that Aizen had a counter prepared for Yamamoto. Do you even know what Yamamoto's bankai does? I feel like you don't, since Yamamoto's bankai causes him to go from an AOE fighter to a single combat fighter. It would be terrible against multiple opponents. It also completely screws Hitsugaya over...

No, or rather, they are false and meaningless explanations, because in such a situation you have to start with everything you have, don't be picky,
How are they meaningless? Shunshui's bankai affects EVERYONE within range, and it isn't even a sure thing like his shikai. Again, the one who dies will be the one who runs out of spirit power first, and against Starrk who had enough spiritual power that he became two different people, Shunsui would lose first.

You can't escape, it's a plothole, not so different from those of Tabata .....
It's not a plothole, we know the exact reason why it happen. A plothole would be unexplained...

Hitsugaya's sentence is exactly what appears.

A sensationalist phrase thrown out solely to make the reader worry and increase tension but, on balance, it only sounds ridiculous.

Again it happens in all shonen, it is the narrative praxis.
So you;re just gonna ignore actual facts...

And who talks about the Silva?

We talked about the nobles murdered by the elves.

All very strong I imagine, people that Julius must surely fear.
The Silva's, who are Nobles, were attacked and we were shown them fighting back, thus disproving your argument.

What Nobles, show me these Nobles.

Is it really the one that allowed you to kill the demon, without how they would do it?

Secre itself says so.
Seal it, obviously. Regardless, that doesn't change the original point, Asta alone could not have done that. We're literally shown that Asta had no real advantage against the devil, despite his anti-magic.

I repeat, phase relatively short duration.
It wasn't a short duration. It was like 25% of the manga. Nor does that change the original argument. This was an example, no matter how short you think it matter.

Just read the manga .....
I have, how about you provide proof to back up your claims. We were neither shown nor told of the possessed knights killing anybody, which would make the event of their possession even more damning to everyone else.

For this arc ?

Yes it is
No he wasn't. That would be like saying Freiza was the main villain of the first arc, since he was behind the Saiyin's actions... I feel like you don't understand what makes a main villain. Heck, the devil wasn't even given a name.

Yes, she had.

Wrongly explained, poorly founded and thrown out, but at least one person and some poor motivation had it.
No she didn't. We were literally told that she was so consumed by her desire for chakra that she became the Ten Tails and was just attacking stuff. She ended up nothing more then a wild beast. If she had had a plan, she would have did that instead of becoming a beast and getting sealed.

Yes, because the demon that is half-combat suffers the attacks of others, isn't it?
Kaguya was inactive as a villain because she herself did nothing to move the plot. We are literally told that Black Zetsu was the one manipulating events, and that it was HIS plan. Kaguya's sole "scheme" was just to absorb chakra...
 

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You don't know how his bankai works, do you? It would not be an automatic win..

Based on what we saw in the manga? I would say yes. XD


A shikai that kills whoever loses the game, basically an instant kill if you're victorious.
Exactly, if that shikai is enough to throw down the one considered able to destroy the SS why the hell worry?


Hitsugaya said that more then ten would do it.
Given how weak the upper level Espada were, I find it hard to believe it ....


We literally saw Doflamingo catching and slicing up one of Fujitora's meteors without much trouble solo.
A meteorite that could still be handle by Law, so could Law beat Fujitora for you too?

How can we just think that DF could worry one who, when not serious, can lift an island of debris?

None of the things you think are plot holes are plot holes.
It depends, in the end it is all a question of how something is presented in the plot


Not when you're trying to criticize the resolution of events,

But why shouldn't I do it?


That doesn't change the original argument. The fact remains that the entire incident was over Noelle. Asta didn't give a damn about them talking crap about himself,
Then, a fortiori, he had to get pissed off because of Marie's treatment and threats to his family.


Perhaps he wasn't in the capital at that time.

Again, these are explanations that we are finding.

But it is the author who has to explain it, if not it is just a plot hole

And even better, they could use this argument to defend them instead of keeping quiet.


Rades' attack was shown as a massive attack, that resulted in several of the captains and top knights being sent out to deal with it. I
Only three captains. Fuegoleon is not dead and has been replaced almost immediately, some civilians have died, but compare it to the attack of the elves in which the capital was literally razed to the ground and the almost exterminated royal house seems to me exaggerated.



ou literally made a comment remarking about Damnatio and the King not having power despite having the "Royal" title

?????

I'm confused.....


Why do you think any historical King or Nobility has power?
In history, but this is a world of fantasy with characters who raze mountains ...


And the elves were clearly shown as villains,
Just because the author made them murderers who attack the poor, if they focused their efforts only on nobles and royals, do you think they would appear as villains in the eyes of the readers?


Noelle's problem was control
And it surpasses it thanks to the experience gained in battles, in fact.


That's a lie. You're being completely false here.
So according to your reasoning, did they all have to go to the battlefields and not let anyone die?

Almost all of them fought on various fronts, obviously for reasons of plot they could not be everywhere, otherwise the others would not have had the opportunity to show off, but comparing them to Damnatio if you allow me is a huge offense.

Are we talking about the past?

Hiruzen was in the front row during Kurama's attack, as was Minato.

Tobirama died on a mission.

The Raikage father of A died in the war,

Obviously for you they are all the same as Damnatio, who was taking a nap during the war, which was perhaps the most devastating for Clover for centuries and centuries.



Shounen's are aimed at young boys.
Again, a story can also be directed at a young audience and contain strong messages.

But you must know how to manage them, and if you are not able to do it you can see .....



It doesn't control fate in general, nor is it limitless.
Very true: and how many times have you used it? A couple?
Or definitely more (with at least one wide beam, why did it also protect Luck)?

You can also say that a spell is limited to the user's mana but there is a huge difference between being able to explicitly use it two or three times (like Sasuke's Chidori in good times) or using it as many times as is convenient for the story, but always limited to use your mana (as happened against Luck).

In short, it would be a restriction in theory but, on balance, it is not a restriction


We do know what triggers Charmy's transformation, and we know it's not a simple transformation since she never did it before.
But we don't know its limits. I think she could easily beat Damnatio and his stupid magic.


The Magic Knights are to deal with the fighting so the Nobles don't have to, it's not that complicated.
Too bad that most of the Magical Knights are noble XD

Furthermore this does not answer my question .....


The point is that Aizen had a counter prepared for Yamamoto
Which appears later, and again does not explain why it did not start immediately with the Bankai given the situation.


How are they meaningless? Shunshui's bankai affects EVERYONE within range,
It was enough to use it in a mood not to afflict everyone as it happened against ..... against ..... who the hell was Kyoraku's opponent at that juncture?


So you;re just gonna ignore actual facts...
No, on the contrary XD


The Silva's, who are Nobles, were attacked and we were shown them fighting back, thus disproving your argument.
But in fact there was no talk of the Silvas, you brought them into play.


What Nobles, show me these Nobles.





Terrifying, no doubt about it ....


It wasn't a short duration. It was like 25% of the manga.
7 volumes out of 38?

As you like.

No he wasn't.
Um yes, I don't think I saw others honestly ....

No she didn't.

But it seems to me that his motives have been explained. In a bad way, but explained.


Kaguya's sole "scheme" was just to absorb chakra


Why, what was the purpose of the demon then?
 

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Based on what we saw in the manga? I would say yes. XD
How is that a yes when we were shown Shunsui's bankai failing to kill Lille Barro?

Exactly, if that shikai is enough to throw down the one considered able to destroy the SS why the hell worry?
Because they have different abilities? How can you compare an instant death attack with one that's a gamble? And again, we saw the other two Vasto Lordes completely tank attacks from bankais without trouble. Why are you ignoring that?

Given how weak the upper level Espada were, I find it hard to believe it ....
Considering the manga outright disagrees with you, I think I'll go with what is canon. Again, just three Vasto Lordes were able to take on half of the Captains of Soul Society, to the point of them nearly losing til the Vizards showed up.

A meteorite that could still be handle by Law, so could Law beat Fujitora for you too?

How can we just think that DF could worry one who, when not serious, can lift an island of debris?
Law has literally been shown capable of teleporting his opponent's hearts into his grasp, why wouldn't he be capable of winning? Except Fujitora did consider Doflamingo a threat, which is why he went against his orders and tried to take him out. Given Doflamingo's awakened ability, how could Fujitora even have fought him and won?

It depends, in the end it is all a question of how something is presented in the plot
Well no, a plot hole, by definition, is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of the plot. It would be quite easy to show a plot hole simply by showing an example within the series that contradicts it.

But why shouldn't I do it?
Because there hasn't been a resolution yet.

Then, a fortiori, he had to get pissed off because of Marie's treatment and threats to his family.
And he did get pissed off at that, and jump to defend her.

Again, these are explanations that we are finding.

But it is the author who has to explain it, if not it is just a plot hole

And even better, they could use this argument to defend them instead of keeping quiet.
What evidence do you have that he or any of them were in a position to act? Your whole argument relies upon the idea that they were around, verses the more reasonable claim of us not knowing. It can't be a plot hole until it contradicts the plot.

Only three captains. Fuegoleon is not dead and has been replaced almost immediately, some civilians have died, but compare it to the attack of the elves in which the capital was literally razed to the ground and the almost exterminated royal house seems to me exaggerated.
The capital wasn't razed to the ground and there was no near extermination. We were shown the damage done by the elves, and it's not much more then what was done there.

?????

I'm confused.....
You literally said: "Then neither Damnatio nor Augustus have the slightest power. So what's the point of the royal title?" here, and I responded that while the King doesn't actually have any power, Damnatio has power because of the Magic Congress, not his royal title.

In history, but this is a world of fantasy with characters who raze mountains ...
It's still the same kind of political system.

Just because the author made them murderers who attack the poor, if they focused their efforts only on nobles and royals, do you think they would appear as villains in the eyes of the readers?
Yeah, because the series has made it clear that not all the Nobles and Royals are evil. Several of teh core cast are of the Nobility...

And it surpasses it thanks to the experience gained in battles, in fact.
No, we were literally shown her mastering it thanks to training and the Black Bulls cheering her on.

So according to your reasoning, did they all have to go to the battlefields and not let anyone die?

Almost all of them fought on various fronts, obviously for reasons of plot they could not be everywhere, otherwise the others would not have had the opportunity to show off, but comparing them to Damnatio if you allow me is a huge offense.

Are we talking about the past?

Hiruzen was in the front row during Kurama's attack, as was Minato.

Tobirama died on a mission.

The Raikage father of A died in the war,

Obviously for you they are all the same as Damnatio, who was taking a nap during the war, which was perhaps the most devastating for Clover for centuries and centuries.
You're the one claiming that the only reason they couldn't help was because they were busy, which as shown isn't true. They were not busy with something else, they were just on the sidelines until they decided to get involved. So you claiming that you don't understand why leadership doesn't imminently jump into a fight makes no sense when even heroic leaders don't automatically jump into the fight. I even gave you an example of a bad leader who is more like the Nobles in Black Clover, Danzo, who outright avoided getting involved and saving anyone because it benefited him to do so. The entire point was they didn't get involved until they had no other choice, which in the situation with the elves, it never got to that point.

The elves' attack wasn't "the most devastating" as we saw the damage, and the Magic Knights were still fighting them even at the end.

Again, a story can also be directed at a young audience and contain strong messages.

But you must know how to manage them, and if you are not able to do it you can see .....
You're not demanding a strong message, you;re demanding a complex one that you yourself can't even put forth.

Very true: and how many times have you used it? A couple?
Or definitely more (with at least one wide beam, why did it also protect Luck)?

You can also say that a spell is limited to the user's mana but there is a huge difference between being able to explicitly use it two or three times (like Sasuke's Chidori in good times) or using it as many times as is convenient for the story, but always limited to use your mana (as happened against Luck).

In short, it would be a restriction in theory but, on balance, it is not a restriction
It's limited in that as far as we saw, the cat has to actually touch the person she wants to protect, meaning she wouldn't be able to protect everyone at once, and as we saw in the fight with Lufulu, she can only use it for a short amount of time. So not only would she be ineffective against multiple enemies, but even against a single opponent she can only last a short time.

But we don't know its limits. I think she could easily beat Damnatio and his stupid magic.
So you're saying she has a chance because we don't know her limits, even though the exact same thing can be said about Damnatio? And it wouldn't matter her limits if she can't achieve that form in this situation.

Too bad that most of the Magical Knights are noble XD

Furthermore this does not answer my question .....
We don't know how many of the Magic Knights are of the Nobility, though I suppose you can enough are. That doesn't change that becoming a Magic Knight is voluntary, meaning only those who wanted to fight would do so, therefore we're back at the point of them fighting for those who don't want to.

Which appears later, and again does not explain why it did not start immediately with the Bankai given the situation.
Yamamoto literally explains why - The entire battle was set up so that Aizen would get cocky and personally strike Yamamoto, thereby allowing Yamamoto to be sure that Aizen was truly there, and thus ensure that his attack would actually hit. In case you forgot, the whole issue for Soul Society was that they could not be sure what they fought was real thanks to Aizen's ability. Just randomly attacking would have been pointless if their opponent wasn't actually there.

It was enough to use it in a mood not to afflict everyone as it happened against ..... against ..... who the hell was Kyoraku's opponent at that juncture?
You mean Lille Barro? Shunsui didn't use it around anyone else, he was shown purposely running away to gain enough distance so that there would be no one around, even apologizing if he did catch another in it.

No, on the contrary XD
Clearly you are, since you keep ignoring that Baraggan and Harribel both had bankai used on them without it doing any damage, and that the Shinigami were losing til the Vizards showed up and turnt the tide. The facts clearly show that the Vasto Lordes were as dangerous as they were made out to be.

But in fact there was no talk of the Silvas, you brought them into play.
No, you did, here. You specifically mentioned the elves entering the Silva home as an example of the Nobles being in danger, and I countered that with the fact that the Silvas were shown fighting back when in danger.





Terrifying, no doubt about it ....
Cool, you have shown one noble, who was a part of the Silva household. Since we then see soon after that a Noble with magic fighting back without hesitation, that doesn't disprove my claim. Also, you implied multiple, so do you have any more examples?

7 volumes out of 38?

As you like.
Your argument was literally that a hero =/= a protagonist isn't true in a Shounen Jump series, and Yami disproves that, even if he changed later. He was still not a hero in the beginning. Plus the other examples I gave.

Um yes, I don't think I saw others honestly ....
Patri was the main villain, the arc centered around his actions and his crimes were specifically referred as unforgivable.

But it seems to me that his motives have been explained. In a bad way, but explained.
Yeah, Black Zetsus motives were explain, and we were shown how that played into the plot. Kaguya's "motive" were void and had no effect upon the actual plot.

Why, what was the purpose of the demon then?
As we've seen so far introduce the characters to the threat of the devils, give a reason why Asta will be at a disadvantage that he can't just fight his way out of so that everyone else has a reason to help him, and give a reason why everyone should look more into curses and devils.
 

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they are not, this is just a petty without any basis.
kaguya was taken out of nowhere not the devil,
The devil is exactly like Kaguya, a badly characterized videogame boss who appears at the last second.

That it is then explored means practically nothing, one speaks only of the context in which it appears.

The series makes it clear the spirits choose to give out their power.

We speak of the spirits understood as already in the possession of their masters.

And based on what was seen by the spirits already appeared, none of them has ever manifested independence at similar levels.

Salamander always obeys the master and looks more like a pet, Bell as already mentioned has only shown a crush on Yuno, but they have never seen him express other feelings.
 

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We speak of the spirits understood as already in the possession of their masters.

And based on what was seen by the spirits already appeared, none of them has ever manifested independence at similar levels.

Salamander always obeys the master and looks more like a pet, Bell as already mentioned has only shown a crush on Yuno, but they have never seen him express other feelings.
I'm still trying to understand what independence you're talking about, what action from the Undine have we been shown that sets her apart from the other two, because her wanting a devil isn't any different from Slyph wanting Yuno... As mentioned, the series shows us that the spirits are the ones who grant their power, and choose to act. We specifically saw this with both Slyph and Salamander - Julius specifically states that Yuno was chosen, and we outright saw this with Salamander leaving Fana to eventually go to the comatose Fuegoleon, healing and awakening him without him having a hand in it. Slyph's first appearance involved her using an attack without Yuno even knowing what was happening, so it wasn't as if he was commanding the action. So while it can be said that the spirits serve, they're serving of their own freewill, and can leave if they ever decide too, as what happen with Fana.

As mentioned before, given they have not been given orders to do stuff, saying they "obey" isn't really true. It's debatable whether their attacks are from themselves, being cast through them, or something else. I say this, because we're never shown them being told to do anything, instead the magician using their grimoire like normal.
 

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Based on what I have seen I would say that Lille is at a level well above the level of the Espada ....


Because they have different abilities? How can you compare an instant death attack with one that's a gamble?
The speech remains the same.

How can one who is defeated by a weaker version of a power be a real threat when those who use power have another trick up their sleeve?

It would be like if Freeza had let the Kaioken defeat him ...


Considering the manga outright disagrees with you,
But if the manga itself says it through Aizen XD


Law has literally been shown capable of teleporting his opponent's hearts into his grasp, why wouldn't he be capable of winning?
Sure, then for the same speech, Law could beat Big Mom and Kaido with one hand .....


Well no, a plot hole, by definition, is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of the plot.
What Black Clover or any other shonen abounds, no denying it ...


Because there hasn't been a resolution yet.
Ah well if we think so we should no longer comment on anything.


And he did get pissed off at that, and jump to defend her.
Aaaaaaannnnnndddddd.....

Consequences on Asta? On his way of thinking? On your relationship with others?

What evidence do you have that he or any of them were in a position to act?
Um, the manga maybe?


The capital wasn't razed to the ground
Nooooooooooo......




there was no near extermination.
Nozelle almost dead, Ratry almost kill the king.....
You literally said: "Then neither Damnatio nor Augustus have the slightest power. So what's the point of the royal title?" here, and I responded that while the King doesn't actually have any power, Damnatio has power because of the Magic Congress, not his royal title.

It was an observation.

You said that the Vermilion and the Silva as royal had no power, and I replied that according to this reasoning not even the Kira should have it.


It's still the same kind of political system.
But I wouldn't say so.


because the series has made it clear that not all the Nobles and Royals are evil.


Yes but how many?

I would say very few.

Most of them have almost been described in a negative way.


No, we were literally shown her mastering it thanks to training

Annnnnnddddd ....

What did I say?



You're the one claiming that the only reason they couldn't help was because they were busy, which as shown isn't true.
The Raikage led the alliance, Gaara was in charge of a division, Mei protected the Damyo, Oonoki supported Gaara.

Yeah, they didn't do anything .....


You're not demanding a strong message, you;re demanding a complex one that you yourself can't even put forth.
Wait, what?


So you're saying she has a chance because we don't know her limits, even though the exact same thing can be said about Damnatio?
For now, Damnatio has only shown one spell, a little to counteract such monsters.



It's limited in that as far as we saw, the cat has to actually touch the person she wants to protect, meaning she wouldn't be able to protect everyone at once, and as we saw in the fight with Lufulu, she can only use it for a short amount of time. So not only would she be ineffective against multiple enemies, but even against a single opponent she can only last a short time.
The point of the speech is that I find it hilarious to present a terribly powerful magic as "balanced" ...

A bit like Tabata saying: "Yes, this magic can also make you a great coffee but did you see what a restriction I used?"

Anyway, if you like it that way, we can do.



The entire battle was set up so that Aizen would get cocky and personally strike Yamamoto,


Still not explaining, in short, if you face one of the greatest threats of all time without using your powers to the full, well you're an idiot.

A bit like if Goku had faced Majin Bu using only the SSJ.


You specifically mentioned the elves entering the Silva home as an example of the Nobles being in danger,
Um yes, look at the pages I posted ....


Cool, you have shown one noble,


But......

There are at least seven dead .....


Your argument was literally that a hero =/= a protagonist isn't true in a Shounen Jump series, and Yami disproves that,
But Atemu was not a villain,

He only punished the criminals, and in any case as he said his ruthless executioner period did not last long.


Patri was the main villain,
Not really, he was just a pawn from the main villain

Yeah, Black Zetsus motives were explain
They were the same as Kaguya's, they were one entity


As we've seen so far introduce the characters to the threat of the devils,
In history, I mean. It is obvious that outside it serves to introduce the demonic race to the readers, but in the context of the manga that has plan or motivation does it have?


'm still trying to understand what independence you're talking about
What you mean, or to show feelings that go beyond not serving their masters.

To hear you it seems that the spirit of water was the one who spoke of wanting the demon, which is strange given that, as I said so far, no spirit has ever shown similar feelings to thoughts.

That is, it would be like Bell had taken the initiative when Yuno was in a trance
 
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