[Bonus Round] Singles 1

[Ninomiya]

@Fayte
Momoshiro and Fuji do not have the same insight. Fuji just reads wind.
Momoshiro read the sun's movement and other things.

Atobe's Insight has to be different.
Chitose wasn't shown to be able to return shots that blasted past him.

Atobe used his Insight to return Mach Serve. Unless you want to tell me Chitose and Momoshiro can handle Mach Serve like Atobe did. Whichi would be nonsense.

 

[Phantron]

Atobe's prediction mechanism is based on physically observeable things. It's because he can literally see someone's muscles/joint moving he can be 100% sure where the swing is going to end up as. You can't fake muscle/joint movements (at least not yet) and hiding your thoughts/emotions wouldn't do any good against Atobe.

 

[ashore]

would kintaro be able to return mach serve? he's shorter and he has the ability to go wild random mode as long as he can see the ball.

 

[Fayte]

World of Ice is an extreme form of such things. Hiding your emotion would do nothing against it. You can hide your emotions and whatever but it doesn't change the fact that your blind spot is still exactly the same as what it was before.

*cough Irie cough cough*

Atobe Kingdom is even more extreme since now he can see your joints and from there he can deduce there's certain angle you cannot possibly swing your racket to and thus hitting to that spot guaranteeds point. Again hiding your thoughts does nothing against it. Atobe can still see your joints through his vision and even if he has no idea what you're thinking, it doesn't change the fact that since your joint can only bend a certain way, you still wouldn't be able to reach the same blind spots.

As of right now Atobe Kingdom is quite possibly the strongest overall offensive move, with no apparent energy costs to activate and cannot be stopped except for dislocating your joints, which obviously only works once. That said it's a move that relies on supernatural vision (Atobe can literally see the world in x-ray) and it'd be reasonable to say a supernatural black aura prevents the x-rays from working.

This is a manga. Do you understand what this means? Atobe is not Echizen, so he will never be the best. That means Atobe can be defeated. That means WoI and AK can be returned, and wow, they both have been returned.

@Fayte
Momoshiro and Fuji do not have the same insight. Fuji just reads wind.
Momoshiro read the sun's movement and other things.

...and how are they different again? I said they are the same because BOTH of them read the "environment" as opposed to the "opponent." Momo has read the wind as well (Ch 274 p.03/p.09/p.15). I'm sure you have a greater education than an 8 year old, so you probably know both the sun and the wind have a part in our environment.

Chitose wasn't shown to be able to return shots that blasted past him.

And Atobe has? lol Let's be real here, the only people who have EVER returned shots that went beyond them are Sanada using Rai, and Echizen using Rai. That's it.

Atobe used his Insight to return Mach Serve. Unless you want to tell me Chitose and Momoshiro can handle Mach Serve like Atobe did. Whichi would be nonsense.

Atobe using his insight to return Mach is EXACTLY my point. Everyone's definition of Atobe's insight is merely offensive attacks to peoples blind spots. My point is that Atobe's insight is the ability to read his opponent, which also means he can use it DEFENSIVELY, which changes everyone's definitions of insight (except mine). I do not think Chitose can return Mach serve but only because of his tier level. If Chitose had the ability level of Atobe, then yes I believe he can handle it. Also, I don't know why you brought Momoshiro into this when I specifically said he doesn't read his opponent, but the environment.

 

[-Ken-]

And Atobe has? lol Let's be real here, the only people who have EVER returned shots that went beyond them are Sanada using Rai, and Echizen using Rai. That's it.

On top of my head, Kintarou have, for sure.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Fayte, there's nothing to say that In stops KnS. Rai stops KnS. Stop reaching here. I know you love Sanada, but your fanboyism is getting a bit over the top.

 

[Fayte]

Fayte, there's nothing to say that In stops KnS. Rai stops KnS. Stop reaching here. I know you love Sanada, but your fanboyism is getting a bit over the top.

No. Everyone else is guilty of trying to make "In" and "WoI" into something it isn't. It isn't fanboyism, and the fact you have resorted to using that as your argument only shows you have no argument. Yukimura specifically says "BY MASKING THE USER'S WEAKNESSES." Everyone completely ignores that whole first part of the technique, just so they can read the behavior patterns thing and proceed to kiss Atobe's ass. Not me. I stick with the facts.

 

[Phantron]

The only case of AK being returned involved someone dislocating his joints. That is only going to work once.

When Atobe used AK he says that Irie uses speed, flexibility, angle of view, and reflex to hide his blind spots. Not that none of thse has anything to do with what Irie is thinking. Atobe has never been someone who tried to figure out what the other guy is thinking anyway. Once Atobe use AK, he says he'll just have to attack blind spots as a function of bone structure or joint location. That is, you can't use reflex or speed on your bones because they're rigid, so if he sees that your joint is pointed this way and can't hit spot X, it has to work because to hit the ball would literally involve dislocating your bones.

If you take WoI versus Zan, we see that Sanada has only one blind spot. Let's say you start with Sanada's base stats so you only have one icicle to deal with, let's look at how these described tactics can deal with it.

Speed - If you look at someone like Ryoma who starts with a ton of icicles, obviously some of those spots are where he can't reach on time. But if you're faster, there's going to be less blind spots as a function of your speed.

Flexibilty - People who do yoga can bend further than people who do not. Maybe the icicle points toward a spot that'd be difficult for a normal person to reach but not someone who is extremely flexible.

Angle of view - Perhaps it's a blind spot simply because you were looking at the wrong way.

Reflex - Take a page out of Fuji's book and hit the ball without seeing it.

Note that all these ways to deal with WoI has nothing to do with mind games. They're physical action your oppoent can do that basically breaks the icicles. We know Irie is capable of all these since he has no icicles.

But AK attacks stuff that can't just become more flexible (joints & bones). He's clearly hitting the ball to a spot where the only way to hit it requires dislocating your joints, so reflex won't do you any good here.

 

[Kaoz]

Regarding the whole KnS vs In business, apparently the line Fayte quoted is a mistranslation.

Sai: KnS freezes an instance in time to see where your blind spots are
Sai: In makes it so Sanada sends out several attack patterns at once so you can't read what he will do next
Sai: KnS doesn't rely on predicting Sanada's next movements
Sai: it makes it so Sanada can't even react to the ball
Sai: he can't perceive it
Kaoz: Fayte cited the first statement Yukimura made when describing In "It masks his weaknesses"
Sai: no, I don't believe that's what the words say
Kaoz: I checked the translated page, it does say that there
Kaoz: "By masking the user's weakness and displaying several behaviour patterns, [...]"
Sai: I have the book in front of me
Sai: "This is another one of his sealed ultimate techniques...[IN]......
Sai: Without a moment's hesitation, various movement patterns are sent out. It's similar to why [Saiki] can't read the opponent when used in Doubles.
Kaoz: that's what Yukimura says or..?
Sai: That's what Yuki says

I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Sai: Without a moment's hesitation, various movement patterns are sent out. It's similar to why [Saiki] can't read the opponent when used in Doubles.

So it's confirmed that Saiki cannot be used in doubles due to extra movement patterns?

 

[Ninomiya]

@Fayte,

To say Insight is the same for everyone is wrong.

Atobe looks at the opponent's body. Nobody else does that.
Nobody else study's weaknesses in the body.

If you notice, World of Ice goes to places the opponents body just cannot reach. Its not about predicting.
He is simply seeing that the opponents body cannot do.

Sanada cannot mask his skeleton. Nobody can.
Rai should be what returns this imo.

Shiraishi spun around backwards on the spot and caught back Disappearing Serve.
The Higa dudes teleported back and caught shots as well.

This was BEFORE Rai appeared. Looks like you forgot that Fayte...

---------- Post added at 05:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

...and how are they different again? I said they are the same because BOTH of them read the "environment" as opposed to the "opponent." Momo has read the wind as well (Ch 274 p.03/p.09/p.15). I'm sure you have a greater education than an 8 year old, so you probably know both the sun and the wind have a part in our environment.

Fuji doesn't have Insight.

Momoshiro DOES. And its that simple.

 

[Phantron]

Fuji has instinct, not insight. He can literally feel where the ball is without seeing it. But that'd do nothing against shots that are hit to a spot you cannot physically reach so AK would definitely work on him. WoI may or may not work, since it seems like the type of blind spot located by WoI varies (can be reach, speed, reflex, etc). Any vision related blindspots would have no effect on Fuji.

Using Rai to return WoI/AK would basically be the same as using Rai to return a shot that goes out of the court. You'd start off in the back wall (so you don't have to run quite as far). At this distance every spot in the court is a blind spot so AK/WoI would reveal no useful information. As soon as you see Atobe hits the ball then you teleport back into the court. Assuming Sanada has only one blind spot, the chance of Atobe guessing correctly is very low so the ball can be returned normally at this point.

That said I suspect tactics that involve running out of the court and back is probably not something they actually do in POT since nobody actually does that, even though with their described speed this is easily doable. Of course this strat would get beaten by endurance issues since Atobe doesn't have to use WoI/AK every hit but to defend against it successfully you must start outside the court so you'd have to use Rai on every hit.

I suppose you can do like start inside court, and then immediately teleport 5m to the side the moment Atobe hits the ball, thus changing your existing blind spot. But again there's no visible cue for WoI/AK, and for that matter it seems like he can actually use it on every hit without any noticeable repercussion, so you'll lose on the endurance front if you've to use Rai multiple times on every hit. Note that it takes more than one Rai to return WoI because you got to use Rai once to reset your blind spot, and chances are wherever you teleported to is nowhere close to returning the ball, so you got to use Rai again, so you'd need to use 2 Rais every rally. There's no way that's sustainable.

 

[Fayte]

@Fayte,

If you notice, World of Ice goes to places the opponents body just cannot reach. Its not about predicting.
He is simply seeing that the opponents body cannot do.

You mean like "predicting" where their body cannot reach?

Shiraishi spun around backwards on the spot and caught back Disappearing Serve.

No, he spun sideways.

The Higa dudes teleported back and caught shots as well.

No, they don't teleport. They step in a way that gives off an illusion of closing a gap quicker than normal.

Fuji doesn't have Insight.

"Insight is the understanding of a specific cause and effect in a specific context." -Wikipedia

Yes he does. Fuji must understand the wind in order to use Hakugei. That is no different than Momoshiro understanding the wind. Just stop trying to make it different.

Regarding the whole KnS vs In business, apparently the line Fayte quoted is a mistranslation.

Sai is the one who translated it to begin with. What is he contradicting himself now? lol.

Here is the chapter I myself scanlated way back when, and SAI is the one who translated it:
http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16815/172036/f6950025e8c79788ef9fb271f8ba8ac5.jpg

"It leaves no trace of weakness."

Or, if you want to go with what the anime says:

Spoiler: Without the slightest thread of an opening.

 

[-Ken-]

You mean like "predicting" where their body cannot reach?

He sees where the body cannot reach. He didn't predict it. As long as the spot is there and he manage to hit it there, there have been 0 instance of it being return.

Ryoma make the shot doesn't go to his blind spot. Doesn't mean Atobe see it wrong. WoI is not prediction.

Seeing and prediction are two different things. Data tennis predict where the ball will go. Atobe see where the ball will go. That's why his insight can hit Mach. His insight doesn't predict where the Mach will go. If your eyes saw a knife slashing at you, do you see it or do you predict it coming? Atobe's eye is just that good.

 

[Ninomiya]

No, they don't teleport. They step in a way that gives off an illusion of closing a gap quicker than normal.

I have still contradicted you that they caught techniques that went past them.
This happened BEFORE Rai. Which you conveniently forget.

Kintaro also did this with Twist Serve (Before Sanada showed us Rai too).

"Insight is the understanding of a specific cause and effect in a specific context." -Wikipedia

There is real life. Then there is PoT.
In PoT, Shukichiho is exaggerated to how it works in real life.

Yips also works differently in the real life example to how it works in PoT.
Wikipedia is irrelevant here.

Yes he does. Fuji must understand the wind in order to use Hakugei. That is no different than Momoshiro understanding the wind. Just stop trying to make it different.

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27172-5/prince-of-tennis/chapter-275.html

It has been said. Momoshiro HAS Insight. It's never been said Fuji actually has it.
Until they say Fuji has Insight should we assume he does.
Fuji reads wind. Momoshiro reads nature. DIFFERENCE.

 

[Fayte]

It has been said. Momoshiro HAS Insight. It's never been said Fuji actually has it.
Until they say Fuji has Insight should we assume he does.

On everything else, I'll bite. This? no. It has never been said that Momoshiro has a brain. Should we assume he actually has one? Obviously Momoshiro has a brain if he has intellectual capabilities such as "insight," yet that is precisely your argument. You claim that simply because it has never been blatantly stated that Fuji has "insight," he must not. When in actuality, what Fuji does (without a defined "insight") has zero difference than what Momo does (with a defined insight). Which by the way, I would like you to show me where it specifically states Momoshiro has insight.

Fuji reads wind. Momoshiro reads nature. DIFFERENCE.

Because wind isn't a part of nature, right? Also, Momo has not consistently read anything BUT wind, so, yeah...still no difference.

 

[Hardy]

It has never been said that Momoshiro has a brain.

Momo is the character that has won the most points in the series using his brain (he was even called Seigaku's trickster at some point) excluding the data guys.

---------- Post added at 02:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------

Which by the way, I would like you to show me where it specifically states Momoshiro has insight.

 

[Kaoz]

It should be noted at this point that Atobe's and Momoshiro's Insight aren't the same. More literally translated, Atobe's is "Vision Power" whereas Momoshiro's is "Perception Ability".

 

[FrostyMouse]

I still like the tler who described it as "Freaky Weatherman Momo" in that TN.

 

[Hardy]

The more info, the better!

Someone could explain me the difference between Atobe Kingdom, World of Ice and the Insight that he already had in Kanto Tournament (against Tezuka)?

Spoiler

Insight: This isn't really a technique as much as it is a 'talent.' Atobe has a knack for being able to read the opponent's current weaknesses. For example, if Atobe was present during the Momoshiro-Sengoku match, he would've been the first person to realize that Momoshiro had cramped his legs despite his efforts to hide it.

World of Ice: Because human eyes are not able to perceive 360-degree vision at any given time, everyone has a 'blind spot' on the tennis court. This is a spot that they cannot react to. Atobe hits the ball in one of these spots. The only known way to avoid these blind spots are as follows:

1. Use a technique to 'suck' the ball towards yourself, ie. Tezuka Zone, as the ball will veer away from the blind spot;
2. (And this is complete theory) 'Fake your blind spots.' This is presumingly what Yukimura and Irie (more the latter than the former) did to defeat the technique;

Atobe Kingdom: The most superior version of Atobe's insight. It's usually portrayed as Atobe having X-ray vision, but this is not how the technique works. No, he cannot actually see the opponent's bones. Via Atobe Kingdom, Atobe can identify the blind spots within the human body rather than on the court, and these are known as Zettai Shikaku, the "Certain Blind Spots."

Taking the nature of these skills into account, it's easy to see how Nioh can mimic them, given Nioh's own knack for observation.

And for sake of discussion, Momoshiro's insight is completely different. His insight is actually foresight.

Like Brandnewkid said.
World of Ice is places on the court that will be impossible for the opponent to return. Relying on the opponents blind spots.

Atobe Kingdom is places that the opponent is physically unable to get to. Almost X-Ray vision is used here. Blind spot or not, the opponent physically wont be able to get to it.

Combined, it is an amazing combination. The focus required however would be immense and wont really be able to be sustained for more than a few games.

Insight is Atobe's exclusive ability. Its what separates him from the rest and places him near the top. He knows when to attack and massacre his opponent, when to hold back and how to see through play styles.
Just like Yukimura's exclusice ability was to see through special shots,
Irie's exclusive ability to understand his opponents completely and understanding the play styles, technique extremely quickly.
And there are many others who have exclusive abilities in this illogical sports series.