No I don't think Laxus can low diff Natsu. Putting him on another level is not saying he would trash him. But with Laxus's big amped, and Natsu's level seemingly the same of Alvarez (sure he has grown up, but didn't seem so much for me), in my opinion, for now, Laxus, even without Red Lightning is superior to Natsu mid-high diff. But I may be wrong.
For Skullion, sure he didn't have a scratch but their magic duel was more on "par" than Ice Make just before : one is making Ocean on ashes and one was freezing it. Gray manage to force Skullion to use seemingly far stronger spell to end this and Gray in the same occasion (without Brandish, Gray was perhaps dead). On another occasion, Skullion didn't have a scratch vs Mirajane but said she was strong and they have to retreat. Skullion is like a "Logia" if you are a One Piece fan. Hard to deal some injuries because you can't basicly touch the body (without Haki in OP). So, perhaps without even being touch by Mira, his Magic reserve was going down and perhaps he won't continue being ashes's body. I think, in the future chapters, Gray and Skullion will encounter again and Gray will win. But assomptions...
For the Raijinshuu, I think they are underestimate. Freed is quite powerful and their magic are hard to counter.
For Gajeel, I only take account the max power they can use by themselves, not external help. For exemple, the power of Natsu being on par or above Laxus or Jellal with Etherion's amped is not revelant. Gajeel can't use his "Dragon Force" without eating element. So his max level is his Shadow Iron which is quite strong.
For now, FDK is revelant (Natsu use at will), DS is revelant (Gray use at will but has to control it before loosing mind), Dragon Force is revelant in under circonstances (Natsu can climax his anger by external emotional stimulus to drive into Dragon Force), Devil Force is revelant (if Gray use DS too long, he may loose control and will pass Devil Force as potentially a berserker).
Being on another level does mean you can trash someone. The phrase "He/She is on a different level" references that.
Again, Gray only lasted so long because Skullion toyed with him. We literally see the minute he's serious, Gray is blown out of the water.... Literally.
Well, the Raijinshuu have no feats and the only somehwhat strong one (Freed) needs prep time for his runes.
Again, be fair. Gray can not use his "Devil Force" on his own. He needed Juvia's death to activate it. Same thing with Natsu, he needs someone to help him activate it. If you're going to take em at their strongest, be fair with Gajeel too. If not, regular DeS is not comparable to FDK.
In my opinion, and again I can be wrong, MUIMadara, I am not the author and I am open to every suggestions . Also, I apologize to people who are reading because we are out of subject.
As how I see the gap between Laxus and Natsu, I think Laxus can beat Natsu FDK mid-high diff in his classical lightning, now, in 100YQ arc, not in Alvarez. To be honest, Laxus didn't impressed me in this arc, but we have to think that he was sick between Tartaros and Alvarez. So he has gotten stronger but less than he could be. For me, in this arc, Natsu was barely on par with his Fire Dragon King's Attack. Between Alvarez and 100YQ, Laxus was healthy and could train himself normally, and mastered a new power mode. This training made him far stronger and far more durable. He is far above Erza's expectations in every stats. As we saw, Natsu's 100YQ and Natsu' Alvarez are barely the same. The gap between them is not clearly shown.
As for exemple, Laxus destroyed Erza's Lightning armor in two shots with his classic lightning mode. When Natsu used Dragon King's Purgatory, Erza was just below the massive heat wave and wasn't affected by the heat, protected by Fire empress armor. Everyone around were touched. Ok, it wasn't direct attack, certainly her armor shouldn't resist, but just below, she was protected and it was concentrate sphere, not an attack lasted in one second. He pushed himself to bypass Madmole's scales.
Again, as I see the massive Laxus's amp, he is on par with Alvarez Gildarts. He impressed me the same in charism, strength and power. We don't know if Gildarts improved himself so we can't compare without these information. So impossible to say if Gildarts is still the strongest wizard or he is now on par with Laxus and Erza or below. For me, they are on the same tier. Natsu was strong in Alvarez, but for me, Gildarts was still above. Natsu is durable and powerful, enough to deal some injuries, but the three aces are tank and power incarnate.
Also, to be fair I agree with you that Natsu and Gray can't pass into their ultimate mode by their own, They need stimulus. But for me, stimulus is not like eating external element to amp your power, as Gajeel is in need. A situation can amp their power to climax. But when Levy was in danger vs bloodman, Gajeel couldn't amp his powers without eating Bloodman's particules. This is what I mean. When Natsu was about to strike pregnant Levy, he couldn't even react. PoF give massive adrenaline under exactly these situations. And this is why, in my opinion, Gajeel, Gray and Natsu are around the same tier, but Gray and Natsu can tap into more potential power ressource. Don't think I underestimate Gajeel, he is quite strong. A tank.... they have not the same feeling power in reserve, the same way Laxus hasn't Erza's PoF. It's only about potential. But ok, to be fair, I understand you.
As for Natsu, I don't know if we can also say that he pass into FDK "mode", because we haven't seen him fighting an entire fight amped with his FDK flames. The only time he did it, he was neither human : END, Dragon Force (against Zeleph or amped by Ignia). We know Dragon Force amp his power level to climax so all his attacks are on FDK level. As human state, he uses Fire Dragon mode and FDK spell more like ougi. Certainly because of the amount of magic. It is more like concentrating blast spells than "mode". (I don't take account the time he used FDK allmight Spell vs Zeleph. It was just one shot and Ignir's gift).
Red Lightining is real mode : he used it during all the fight. All his spells were based on red lightning vs Erza.
So, for me, Natsu was around Laxus in Alvarez but now, Laxus is crazy stronger, far more durable and have greater stamina than Natsu. And he can use his massive spell and unchain them. Natsu can't unchained FDK combos attacks by his own or only for very few blows, not enough for laxus's tank.
So for now, Laxus, in my opinion, is a level above Natsu. But Natsu can grow up and reverse the situation later.
And to be honest, for the subject, Erza had always been above Gray since the beginning, and I think now, the gap is even bigger, the same way as Laxus and Natsu.
Agree.... For me, Skullion and Madmole were not at their peak. Also, Gray battled and won against Strauss team up. Exausted, right, but taking them in a 2 vs 1 is more impressive than 1 vs 1 (2 targets at 50% is more difficult to fight one in 100%). we haven't seen the fight, and this was my very disappointed moment. I needed to see that fight.
People think that Mirajane only used her Satan Soul, perhaps. But perhaps, in the opposite, Gray neither used Devil Slayer's. This magic is far too deadly against a friend who have this weakness (think about Tempester : Gray can do the same to Mira in my opinion). Gray didn't want to kill her. So I think he managed to take them both in Ice Make mode (not sure for Elfman who has grown far stronger and durable and who is not weak against this magic).
For me, later, Gray will battle and win vs Skullion, the same way Natsu will take on Madmole.
Agree.... For me, Skullion and Madmole were not at their peak. Also, Gray battled and won against Strauss team up. Exausted, right, but taking them in a 2 vs 1 is more impressive than 1 vs 1 (2 targets at 50% is more difficult to fight one in 100%). we haven't seen the fight, and this was my very disappointed moment. I needed to see that fight.
People think that Mirajane only used her Satan Soul, perhaps. But perhaps, in the opposite, Gray neither used Devil Slayer's. This magic is far too deadly against a friend who have this weakness (think about Tempester : Gray can do the same to Mira in my opinion). Gray didn't want to kill her. So I think he managed to take them both in Ice Make mode (not sure for Elfman who has grown far stronger and durable and who is not weak against this magic).
For me, later, Gray will battle and win vs Skullion, the same way Natsu will take on Madmole.
There’s nothing to say Skullion and Madmole weren’t at their peak? Confused as to where that statement came from.
eh beating up two exhausted opponents, one of which wasn’t even given a shout out and still struggling pretty hard isn’t very impressive imo.
That conversation has been ran into the ground on these forums so I don’t exactly want to rehash it.
As for the Skullion vs Gray predicted fight. I see no reason it won’t end the same way as the first one considering he doesn’t have any other arsenal to counter Skullion. Aren’t the Strauss siblings due another rematch with Skullion’s parting words of them ‘settling the score’?
There’s nothing to say Skullion and Madmole weren’t at their peak? Confused as to where that statement came from.
eh beating up two exhausted opponents, one of which wasn’t even given a shout out and still struggling pretty hard isn’t very impressive imo.
That conversation has been ran into the ground on these forums so I don’t exactly want to rehash it.
As for the Skullion vs Gray predicted fight. I see no reason it won’t end the same way as the first one considering he doesn’t have any other arsenal to counter Skullion. Aren’t the Strauss siblings due another rematch with Skullion’s parting words of them ‘settling the score’?
Well, we haven't seen the fight. We don't know if they were doing their max or not....
To be honest, I respect Mirajane and Elfman's strength : even being exausted, they are not fodder characters. Elfman seems far stronger than in Alvarez with his Were Lion mode. Mirajane is still a powerful wizard. You think beating the team alone is not impressive ? Sure Gray is exausted, he was alone against two strong opponents and certainly didn't used DS. His path was not to kill Mirajane who is a friend. Do not underestimate Mira and Elfman....
As for Skullion vs Gray return, perhaps I can be wrong but no matter....
Erza. I'd say mid-high difficulty with no POF involved, and mid diff at most with both at peak POF. She already has the feats of stopping the strongest attack Gray has shown so far, and can cut down an Irene level dragon with her dragon slaying sword. Now she has a devil slaying sword.
Mirajane is no Erza. Even excluding the fact that Erza just has better feats than Mirajane all around, the slayer advantage is even reversed in this scenario. Erza would have a slayer advantage against Gray. Also Gray is no Natsu. While Dragon force lets Natsu edge out Erza just very slightly with his Zeref vaporizing feat and Flames of Savage Emotions is virtually invincible, Gray doesn't have anything that scales to either of these. Honestly, if we're excluding Natsu's top end POF feats, I honestly think Erza can solo Natsu and Gray combined. Or at least come very close. This might change depending on how Natsu fares against Aldoron, but it doesn't change the context of Gray vs Erza here.
Erza. I'd say mid-high difficulty with no POF involved, and mid diff at most with both at peak POF. She already has the feats of stopping the strongest attack Gray has shown so far, and can cut down an Irene level dragon with her dragon slaying sword. Now she has a devil slaying sword.
Mirajane is no Erza. Even excluding the fact that Erza just has better feats than Mirajane all around, the slayer advantage is even reversed in this scenario. Erza would have a slayer advantage against Gray. Also Gray is no Natsu. While Dragon force lets Natsu edge out Erza just very slightly with his Zeref vaporizing feat and Flames of Savage Emotions is virtually invincible, Gray doesn't have anything that scales to either of these. Honestly, if we're excluding Natsu's top end POF feats, I honestly think Erza can solo Natsu and Gray combined. Or at least come very close. This might change depending on how Natsu fares against Aldoron, but it doesn't change the context of Gray vs Erza here.
Somehow Erza got caught up in Faris' spell and was whited out. Gray runs into her at Right Hand City (Natsu is mad when he finds out later) and has no choice but to engage her. I think everyone agrees that Gray loses but what difficulty would Gray give Erza if they both go all out (she fights him as she did Laxus)? For arguments sake I listed options for Gray winning as well.
Restrictions: Ice Shell (since that takes Gray out as well).
I love Gray but I think he loses. Erza, with all her advantages, gave to Laxus an extreme-diff and almost equaled him. Base Laxus stomped Kyria while DeS Gray lost to Skullion, who's at least as strong and probably stronger (Gray lost mainly because of hax and Skullion has easily better than Kyria). Base Satan Soul Mirajane "stalemated" him (onscreen she was being overpowered and Skullion didn't even used against her or Elfman the hax he used against Gray). He also high-diffed an injured BSS Mira (but don't forget there was Elfman, who was most likely trying to protect her). Gray has sadly no feats which puts him above Erza in 100YQ, so Erza wins high to extreme diff, more close to high.
I love Gray but I think he loses. Erza, with all her advantages, gave to Laxus an extreme-diff and almost equaled him. Base Laxus stomped Kyria while DeS Gray lost to Skullion, who's at least as strong and probably stronger (Gray lost mainly because of hax and Skullion has easily better than Kyria). Base Satan Soul Mirajane "stalemated" him (onscreen she was being overpowered and Skullion didn't even used against her or Elfman the hax he used against Gray). He also high-diffed an injured BSS Mira (but don't forget there was Elfman, who was most likely trying to protect her). Gray has sadly no feats which puts him above Erza in 100YQ, so Erza wins high to extreme diff, more close to high.
I agree for nearly all the statements. Erza tied Laxus.
You have to think that Erza was holding back the first half of the fight. I think she won't as brainwatch. If Erza is serious since the beginning, just like Laxus was, I am not even sure Grey has time entering Devil Slayer Mode. In classic Ice Make, I think it's low-diff in Erza's favor. Grey has good durability and versatility, but Erza, especially if she goes all out since the beginning, is same sort of fighter but with far higher stats. If Grey can enter DS, I think he can put a mid-diff with his max.
I like Grey, but they are not in same tier. I think, in comparison, regular Laxus is stronger than DS Grey with some mergin. Laxus needed all his might to tie Erza.
For me, this fight turns low-mid diff under theses circumstances.
I love Gray but I think he loses. Erza, with all her advantages, gave to Laxus an extreme-diff and almost equaled him. Base Laxus stomped Kyria while DeS Gray lost to Skullion, who's at least as strong and probably stronger (Gray lost mainly because of hax and Skullion has easily better than Kyria). Base Satan Soul Mirajane "stalemated" him (onscreen she was being overpowered and Skullion didn't even used against her or Elfman the hax he used against Gray). He also high-diffed an injured BSS Mira (but don't forget there was Elfman, who was most likely trying to protect her). Gray has sadly no feats which puts him above Erza in 100YQ, so Erza wins high to extreme diff, more close to high.
I'd say Skullion IS stronger since he is the leader and drew with Mira and beat Gray while Madmole drew with Elfman who is weaker than those 2. If he's stronger than Madmole he's likely stronger than Kyria.
Gray said Mira was the one he struggled with when Cana pointed out how he was struggling with a beat up enemy ie it was not Elfman, so off screen a heavily injured Mira drove him to extreme diff after he low diffed injured Elfman, it seems.
Skullion also said he couldn't beat Mira and Elfman with Madmole and we saw how all four were injured so we know he used his best moves and hax off panel to fight. It makes no sense that he would choose not to do so especially when we saw panels of ash and demonic energy in between and in the past we saw Natsu's punch touch him when he was caught off guard and Wendy blew away his ash (making it logical for Mira to hurt him).
If he's close to Mira's weakest form when she's heavily injured and he's near fresh, and that form was shown to tie with the guy who low diffed him then I'd say Mira at her peak with her best forms would do better than Skullion vs Gray and thus so would Erza. This means that Erza should low diff him as crazy as it looks due to what Mashima did to him in this series.
I'd say Skullion IS stronger since he is the leader and drew with Mira and beat Gray while Madmole drew with Elfman who is weaker than those 2. If he's stronger than Madmole he's likely stronger than Kyria.
Gray said Mira was the one he struggled with when Cana pointed out how he was struggling with a beat up enemy ie it was not Elfman, so off screen a heavily injured Mira drove him to extreme diff after he low diffed injured Elfman, it seems.
Skullion also said he couldn't beat Mira and Elfman with Madmole and we saw how all four were injured so we know he used his best moves and hax off panel to fight. It makes no sense that he would choose not to do so especially when we saw panels of ash and demonic energy in between and in the past we saw Natsu's punch touch him when he was caught off guard and Wendy blew away his ash (making it logical for Mira to hurt him).
If he's close to Mira's weakest form when she's heavily injured and he's near fresh, and that form was shown to tie with the guy who low diffed him then I'd say Mira at her peak with her best forms would do better than Skullion vs Gray and thus so would Erza. This means that Erza should low diff him as crazy as it looks due to what Mashima did to him in this series.
Grey is usually misunderstand and underestimate. As Erza is a Fairy Tail's top tier, nothing suggest Grey is weak. If Grey exploits his potential without holding back until loosing control, I think, he can be above the like of Mirajane by some mergin (look like vs END). And this will be true when he will defeat Skullion as his nemesis.
Grey is usually misunderstand and underestimate. As Erza is a Fairy Tail's top tier, nothing suggest Grey is weak. If Grey exploits his potential without holding back until loosing control, I think, he can be above the like of Mirajane by some mergin (look like vs END). And this will be true when he will defeat Skullion as his nemesis.
What do you think about the fight Erza vs Laxus ? Are you thinking that Erza, who used Heaven's Weel countering the utimate blow, didn't use all her might at the end ? I think you will say that Erza did her best, right ? I think so.
But Heaven's weel is not her strongest armor, right ? Do you think current Laxus is Erza's mid armor level ?
I think that Mirajane, under adrenaline seeing Lisana being erase, did her best with anger vs Skullion. Just like Erza in her final blow.
Satan Soul is her usual battle suit. Alegria is oneshot action. What was the best solution against a man who can't be touch, for a long fight ?
Power is good but you have to think about the counter part. Satan Soul is her Balance form. So, her best option here.
But yes, I think you hate Grey. No problem with that. I think Mira and Grey are relative in combat, but with Grey having more potential to tap into.
Mirajane couldn't beat Skullion, never mind what form she used. Skullion didn't escape because he feared her, but because his allies were fallen, with Fairy Tail's being stronger and too many than they thought. Mirajane said to Elfman that they could be beaten if the fight continious. Am I wrong ?
So, if Grey defeats Skullion by his own, and he will, we have to consider Grey breaks a wall Mirajane couldn't. Or you are not honest.
Currently, both couldn't. So I can place them in relative instance.
Perhaps you also think that Miarajane didn't give her best vs Jacob where it was nearly a mismatch (I think of the Manga version, not the anime adaptation which was ridiculous) ?
Sorry for being out of subject again, people. For the thread, Erza is like Grey in strategy and battle way of fighting but in all greater higher stats. Grey has no chance here.
What do you think about the fight Erza vs Laxus ? Are you thinking that Erza, who used Heaven's Weel countering the utimate blow, didn't use all her might at the end ? I think you will say that Erza did her best, right ? I think so.
But Heaven's weel is not her strongest armor, right ? Do you think current Laxus is Erza's mid armor level ?
I think that Mirajane, under adrenaline seeing Lisana being erase, did her best with anger vs Skullion. Just like Erza in her final blow.
Satan Soul is her usual battle suit. Alegria is oneshot action. What was the best solution against a man who can't be touch, for a long fight ?
Power is good but you have to think about the counter part. Satan Soul is her Balance form. So, her best option here.
But yes, I think you hate Grey. No problem with that. I think Mira and Grey are relative in combat, but with Grey having more potential to tap into.
Mirajane couldn't beat Skullion, never mind what form she used. Skullion didn't escape because he feared her, but because his allies were fallen, with Fairy Tail's being stronger and too many than they thought. Mirajane said to Elfman that they could be beaten if the fight continious. Am I wrong ?
So, if Grey defeats Skullion by his own, and he will, we have to consider Grey breaks a wall Mirajane couldn't. Or you are not honest.
Currently, both couldn't. So I can place them in relative instance.
Perhaps you also think that Miarajane didn't give her best vs Jacob where it was nearly a mismatch (I think of the Manga version, not the anime adaptation which was ridiculous) ?
Sorry for being out of subject again, people. For the thread, Erza is like Grey in strategy and battle way of fighting but in all greater higher stats. Grey has no chance here.
Stating the fact that was proven last Arc that Gray is weaker than Mira doesn't prove someone hates Gray though. Funny how you actually think that. Telling....
Similarly, I can claim you hate Mira because of you ignoring canon facts because powerscaling headcanons from Alvarez were crushed
Mira didn't move to her strongest forms vs Skullion and was battling Lucy before so you can't actually claim the reason in verse for her not powering up to try to beat Skullion was because all her forms are equal.
Similarly, Erza didn't use Nakagami vs Laxus likely because she couldn't one shot him and when he was finally worn out she was too so couldn't use it. She also needed maximum attack power to face him as he's so strong.
Unlike Gray, Mira didn't try her strongest and lose.
No Mira didn't give her best vs Jacob, actually. She was low on magic hence her fighting without a takeover then using her weakest for her final attacks. Jacob wasn't giving his best vs Mira either so not sure how this is a gotcha
Alegria > Sitri >Halphas >BSS
Mira said Alegria is her trump card. It beat heine and Julliet when BSS couldn't. In the anime Halphas is shown and stated to be stronger than BSS and Erza says that Sitri was Mira's strongest form (before the Tartaros arc)
Erza vs Edolas Erza showed Armadura had her strongest pre time skip. Mira said that Armadura is Erza's strongest armor based on her exp fighting her before Nakagami was introduced. Lucy wondered if Purgatory or Armadura was her strongest prompting Mira's reply. Erza regretted lacking both vs Azuma. Her flame pants focuses all of her magic solely on attack and was able to replace both against Azuma and was her main vs Laxus. It's not up for debate if Heavens Wheel Erza is stronger than her strongest armors. Each armor has a different role and different attacks. Laxus and Erza used attacks with large AOE in that final clash. Odds are his more focused ones and her different armors and swords do worse.
Just because Erza needed a specific type of AOE from heavens wheel to clash with Laxus' red lightning spread out, doesn't mean that another armor can't give her a power powerful but focused and/or energy based attack like her benizakura, true benizakura, dragon Slayer or demon Slayer swords etc.
Skullion, BSS Mira & Heavens Wheel Erza > DeS Gray > Base Gray
On topic Erza would low diff Gray based on recent, current feats and hype because Skullion did it & Mira was heavily injured in a weaker form and barely lost to him near his peak, while Erza was standing up to Laxus.
Someone like Elfman or Madmole would drive him to high diff so Erza does what?
If you consider this Grey as his best, well ok.
Let him unlock his potential again. But Jacob was surely stronger than END who onslaught Dimaria.
Halphas doesn't exist in the Manga. Sitri was above Satan Soul but not so far away if we consider her fight vs Seilha.
Alegria is her best, as one shot just like Lucy's Star Dress Mix which is expendable vs Skullion.
Grey and Mira's attacks were all useless vs Skullion. Show me a pict where Mirajane damages him.
Devil Slayer Grey blitz Skullion.
Skullion passed turning serious with AoE spell turning Ocean as Ashes : That shows the gap with regular Grey
DS Grey fought magicly Skullion's heavy AoE and they countered each other
Skullion used a stronger spell to end the fight. Name Spell is usally "elite" spell (Kaméhaméha is stronger than no name Ki blast launch with two hands in same way)
To be honest, Skullion was more serious vs Grey than vs Mirajane, perhaps because he couldn't use such power with Madmol close to him.
You said Mirajane wasn't at her peak. Neither was Grey. His peak is Berserker mode used vs END in which he is far stronger (look Invel's fight in analogy).
Currently, both Grey and Mira are below Skullion.
Can we stop being out of subject ? If you consider Mirajane >>> Grey, ok then... I don't have to make you think another way.
We can have different opinion, right ?
Mashima took everything from Gray and turned him into a joke
Destined (one of the ) final battle against END? Wasn't even one of the final battles, END didn't even fully materialize (was partial-demon). And got cucked by Erza in the middle of the fight -_-
Then he wanted to cast iced shell again, for the 100th time after repeated developments in the past teaching him not to. And got cucked again, this time by Natsu.
The dude can't catch a break. He hasn't done ANYTHING IMPRESSIVE in the spinoff. Null, nada.
Now he's apparently even below SS Mira, WTF? It would be one thing if he's below Alegria or even Sitri, but SS, seriously?
He's just reduced to shipping material -_-
Honestly, there was a time (in Alverez/EOS) when people put Gray above Erza and even Laxus at times.
All you need to do is check out videos and power-ranking lists made during Alverez arc. Pretty much everyone put him above Erza, and majority put him above Laxus.
At one point he was a "rival" of Natsu. Now he's just........there.......as the epitome of mediocrity (both in character and power level). The weakest "powerhouse"
