Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Enma isn’t the only sword to wound Kaido. Ame no Habakiri left the same scar Enma did and to our knowledge has no special properties.

Furthermore. Enma does not “change” quality of Haki of the person weilding it. It simply forcibly flows more Haki into the sword than the user intends. It’s literally forcing Zoro’s body to learn Haki flow, which he then will apply to the rest of his swords.

It’s amazing how Luffy and Zoro’s training are directly juxtaposed, the mechanics of the sword are clearly explained, and we still get posts about made up abilities of a sword with its abilities already explained

Comparing Enma to Advanced King's Haki could not be more wrong.

Enma was handed to Zoro. Luffy had to get the fuck beat put of him multiple times to even realize King's Haki could be utilized in such a way. No one is "making up" abilities for Enma. It is what it is

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

t’s amazing how Luffy and Zoro’s training are directly juxtaposed, the mechanics of the sword are clearly explained, and we still get posts about made up abilities of a sword with its abilities already explained

Looks like you're the one ignoring explanations.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2021 ---

Enma does not “change” quality of Haki of the person weilding it.

Then why is Zoro's Haki weird as a result of Enma if it's not changing it too?

Why's the Sword giving Big Mom weird vibes if it's just using more of Zoro's Haki?

If that were the case, he wouldn't need Enma. He could use more of his Haki with a normal Sword.

Enma does far more than just increase Haki output.

 

[Moss Green]

Comparing Enma to Advanced King's Haki could not be more wrong.

Enma was handed to Zoro. Luffy had to get the fuck beat put of him multiple times to even realize King's Haki could be utilized in such a way. No one is "making up" abilities for Enma. It is what it is

Not talking about King’s, Enma is Zoro’s tool to learn Armament Flow. King’s may or may not require Flow but there is no indication as of yet that is the case. I’m not here to argue that Zoro is stronger than Luffy don’t confuse me

Looks like you're the one ignoring explanations.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2021 ---

And yet Kaido has 2 scars from a 2-sword Paradise Totsuka

Then why is Zoro's Haki weird as a result of Enma if it's not changing it too?

Why's the Sword giving Big Mom weird vibes if it's just using more of Zoro's Haki?

If that were the case, he wouldn't need Enma. He could use more of his Haki with a normal Sword.

Enma does far more than just increase Haki output.

It’s not “weird” Haki it’s just MORE Haki, significantly more than the other 2. Hence more dangerous. People can’t just use “more” Haki in their attacks that’s the entire point. In all of Luffy’s fights before Flow either his Haki was stronger or it wasn’t. The point of Enma is that it’s a training tool to teach him to be able to do exactly this with any other swords he weilds. Flow more Haki from the rest of him into his swords.

Thinking about it I think you may be part of the way there. I don’t think Enma changed his Haki to King’s but tapped so deeply into his Haki stores that his latent King’s came out.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Not talking about King’s, Enma is Zoro’s tool to learn Armament Flow. King’s may or may not require Flow but there is no indication as of yet that is the case. I’m not here to argue that Zoro is stronger than Luffy don’t confuse me




And yet Kaido has 2 scars from a 2-sword Paradise Totsuka



It’s not “weird” Haki it’s just MORE Haki, significantly more than the other 2. Hence more dangerous. The point of Enma is that it’s a training tool to teach him to be able to do exactly this with any other swords he weilds. Flow more Haki from the rest of him into his swords.

If it was just MORE haki then Zoro wouldn't have needed Enma to fight Kaido. He has all the haki he needs.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Enma is Zoro’s tool to learn Armament Flow. King’s may or may not require Flow but there is no indication as of yet that is the case. I’m not here to argue that Zoro is stronger than Luffy don’t confuse me

Logic would imply it does require flow.

Luffy didn't learn to weaponise King's Haki until he'd learned flow.

Also makes sense since Flow is something only the strongest can use.

Only people using King's Haki as weapons are people who can use flow (e.g. Kaido, Big Mom).

Nor did I say Zoro is stronger than Luffy, I think you're confusing yourself as nothing I said remotely hints at that.

And yet Kaido has 2 scars from a 2-sword Paradise Totsuka

Which is irrelevant.

Does this look like a cut from a Sword? No,

So, just because the scar is x-shape doesn't necessarily mean it's not Enma.

Fact at the end of the day is it's said to be the only Sword to scar Kaido.

Ashura turns 3 blades into 9 Swords. So, shape proves nothing.

It’s not “weird” Haki it’s just MORE Haki

Wrong.

More Haki is not weird.

Big Mom saw it too and said that Sword is not ordinary, so it definitely changes Haki.

The point of Enma is that it’s a training tool to teach him to be able to do exactly this with any other swords he weilds.

Wrong.

No where does Enma perform or teach flow, that's false.

Flow more Haki from the rest of him into his swords.

Nope, wrong.

Enma doesn't use FLOW.

It modifies Haki, it strengthens attacks and uses more of the user's strength and Haki.

It however doesn't use FLOW.

Absolutely false, you can't even prove it uses flow, you're simply making it up. Where's the evidence it uses flow even?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2021 ---

If it was just MORE haki then Zoro wouldn't have needed Enma to fight Kaido. He has all the haki he needs.

At least someone here is using some sense.

If any Sword could do what Enma was doing, it wouldn't be needed to scar Kaido and Big Mom/Kaido wouldn't be referring to Enma as a special weapon, they'd be talking about all his weapons.

Enma stands out despite the fact he's using 3 Swords. Clearly, Enma isn't special, lol.

Somehow, they're able to pinpoint Enma as different, but here we have people claiming it's not special and a training weapon, lol.

 

[Moss Green]

Luffy didn't learn to weaponise King's Haki until he'd learned flow.

Also makes sense since Flow is something only the strongest can use.

Only people using King's Haki as weapons are people who can use flow (e.g. Kaido, Big Mom).

Correlation does not equal Causation. We have yet to see either Yonkou use Flow, I don’t believe there’s even a visual or attack representation of it yet. You are making an assumption and extrapolating from there because the results are similar. But we have barely been introduced to the technique you can theorize but to definitively say one results from the other is premature and not, in fact, logical

Nor did I say Zoro is stronger than Luffy, I think you're confusing yourself as nothing I said remotely hints at that.



Which is irrelevant.

I clearly quoted Pirate Queen regarding this. Reading isn’t hard

Does this look like a cut from a Sword? No,

Hahaha of course it doesn’t because that’s a STABBING technique.

If either of you can show me one instance of a character pumping up an attack with “more” Haki before flow I’ll happily concede this argument.

If it was just MORE haki then Zoro wouldn't have needed Enma to fight Kaido. He has all the haki he needs.

Clearly this is not true. Answer me this what does Flow do? Luffy needed to learn it in order to begin to entertain Kaido, then King’s for Kaido to take him seriously. And now Luffy is in the ocean. So how pray tell does Zoro have all the Haki he needs? Zoro’s specialty is armament. You could have MAYBE make the argument his base armament is stronger than Luffy’s (which I am NOT for the record) but with Luffy’s training with internal he’s well above Zoro’s Flow.

Zoro’s attacks scratched the surface of damage Kaido, just like Luffy’s pre King’s, he then scarred him when a little bit of King’s trickled out. Luffy has done SIGNIFICANTLY more damage to Kaido

Finally, do you think Enma will just be stronger than all his other swords for the rest of the series because it’s “magic”? How does that make sense from a narrative perspective when Wado exists. A sword the same grade an Enma and infinitely more important to Zoro. Stop seeking convoluted explanations when simple ones have already been given to you

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Correlation does not equal Causation. We have yet to see either Yonkou use Flow,

We have seen flow being used.

Can't hit without making contact without flow bud.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2021 ---

I clearly quoted Pirate Queen regarding this. Reading isn’t hard

You're still wrong either way.

Hahaha of course it doesn’t because that’s a STABBING technique.

From a bladed weapon.

Blades shouldn't make holes like that.

Not sure you're familiar with geometry.

If either of you can show me one instance of a character pumping up an attack with “more” Haki before flow I’ll happily concede this argument.

Enma doesn't pump Haki, not sure where you read that.

It simply exudes Haki meaning it activates it by its own will, not the user's will.

That's not pumping Haki.

So, the idea that Enma is pumping Haki is your headcanon and not factual at all.

No where are we told its using more Haki, it's simply activating the user's Haki.

So, Big Mom and Kaido are not reacting to Haki that's been activated.

They're reacting to the power of the Sword itself.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021 ---

Really? Kaido got a X shaped scar. That's not caused by just one sword. Ame no habakiri also injured Kaido and left a scar. So which is true? Hiyori stating a manga fact or visible evidence of Oden cutting Kaido with both swords leaving X scar? One of them has to be wrong, right?

A blade shouldn't cause holes to form, but here we are.

If blade can do that, why can't it cause an X shaped scar?

1 Bladed attack with multiple holes. Logically, this should just be 1 cut, but it's not doing anything remotely logical.

Don't think the X shape is that important even if it's logical because there are contradictions to the idea.

End of the day, fact is we're told Enma is the only one. It's a magic Sword. Could be Enma influences the other Swords and thus gives them power to cut too. All we know as the Manga factually states is Enma is the only 1 responsible for Kaido's permanent injury.

What Enma does, there's no other Sword that does that.

Every translation so far tells us, just Enma. Not that there are other Swords, or it's 1 of 2/3 swords, it's stated as the only one.

 

[Moss Green]

We have seen flow being used.

Can't hit without making contact without flow bud.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2021 ---

Today we’re going to learn the word “assumption”.
Here this is an assumption. “Luffy learned Flow after King’s therefore you need Flow to learn King’s”. We KNOW Big Mom is using King’s, we do NOT know she’s using anything else. You could be right, but you could also be wrong. This is a theory, you have NO idea how King’s is applied to an attack you are ASSUMING how it’s applied. Unless you’ve got a wall of images that show me otherwise moving on

You're still wrong either way.

Either you ACTUALLY can’t read or you’re trolling, either is hilarious. I’m asserting that Luffy IS stronger than Zoro….so you believe otherwise??

From a bladed weapon.

Blades shouldn't make holes like that.

Not sure you're familiar with geometry.

Hey everyone, apparently I’M not familiar with geomtery but a strong stabbing motion, meant to mimic a rapier mind you, definitively CANNOT create a hole in a manga because it serves my purposes. HOWEVER, it is also preposterous that this strike with 2 weapons imbued with Haki can make X strike because I’ve isolated a sentence. If Enma is the only sword to wound Kaido what did the Scabbards do? I could have sworn I’ve heard you crediting the Scabbards for cutting and stabbing him….Wasn’t there a certain 2-sword technique the learned from Oden they used? I can’t remember

Enma doesn't pump Haki, not sure where you read that.

It simply exudes Haki meaning it activates it by its own will, not the user's will.

That's not pumping Haki.

So, the idea that Enma is pumping Haki is your headcanon and not factual at all.

No where are we told its using more Haki, it's simply activating the user's Haki.

So, Big Mom and Kaido are not reacting to Haki that's been activated.

They're reacting to the power of the Sword itself.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2021 ---

A blade shouldn't cause holes to form, but here we are.

If blade can do that, why can't it cause an X shaped scar?

1 Bladed attack with multiple holes. Logically, this should just be 1 cut, but it's not doing anything remotely logical.

Don't think the X shape is that important even if it's logical because there are contradictions to the idea.

End of the day, fact is we're told Enma is the only one. It's a magic Sword. Could be Enma influences the other Swords and thus gives them power to cut too. All we know as the Manga factually states is Enma is the only 1 responsible for Kaido's permanent injury.

What Enma does, there's no other Sword that does that.

Every translation so far tells us, just Enma. Not that there are other Swords, or it's 1 of 2/3 swords, it's stated as the only one.

A lot of nonsense. So essentially all your knowledge about One Piece comes from individual sentences taken out of context rather than what the images show you. Sword strikes/kicks can fall from the sky like rain and cut, Kaku’s Pasta Machine. Explain that with geometry, or physics, or any real-world discipline you’d like. Make a thread I’d happily read it

Where does the Haki Enma “exudes” come from? Zoro. Where does it go? His sword strikes. How does it get there? Through his body. More Haki from his body is sent through to his sword. Huh, that sort of sounds like something he was shown of montage of training while Luffy was montaging Armament Flow. What a quirky narrative Oda weaves, relaying 2 training montages side by side for no reason.

By all means, teach me some geometry

 

[I Am Atomic]

What Enma does, there's no other Sword that does that.

Actually, wrong again. Ame no habikiri did scar Kaido. The only property unique to Enma is the haki strengthening concept.

Look at Oden's swords and Kaido's wound. Enough said. You are smarter than this.

 

[Nie Li]

If only Oda had inserted a master swordsmith in the manga to explain to us exactly what is that Enma does, and if only he had used Zoro to serve as a visual example for the explanation many chapters before the battles started, so we wouldn't let our minds flow later on making crazy assumptions like what happened with the whole "BOAT" once again...

But no, here we are again. Honestly I don't even find it entertaining anymore to have to defend what the manga had directly told the reader.

Even more ridiculous. When the Ryuuma stabbing happened Brook explained the technique, but apparently a simple long-range stab is too much a difficult concept to grab, so somehow a high-pressure wind "stab" mark on the wall making a round hole means that Oden's two-sword slash only uses a single sword to strike in an X.

Wind-pressure attacks in One Piece always tend to be much bigger than the weapon used to create them unless the swordsman is restraining himself or just a weakling. It can be a normal cut, like Monet's cheek, or something much wider than the sword used, like Mihawk's slash that Jozu stopped. There are even examples of such things with non-bladed weapons like the king's punch in Dressrosa. The shockwave effect was much wider than the fist.

 

[Moss Green]

Actually, wrong again. Ame no habikiri did scar Kaido. The only property unique to Enma is the haki strengthening concept.

Look at Oden's swords and Kaido's wound. Enough said. You are smarter than this.

“Oden Nitoryu” - NVM I’M ONLY USING 1 SWORD TWICE ATTACK. Unreal

 

[Pirate Queen]

A Yonkos words hold more weight than any swordsmiths

 

[Nie Li]

A Yonkos words hold more weight than any swordsmiths

Except when the Yonkou believes Zoro has CoC, got it.

1- Kaido's words don't even contradict the swordsmith explanation unless one is adamant in sticking to a headcanon that does contradict the swordsmith.
2- Kaido knows nothing about Enma other than that Oden wielded it, so his words don't weight more than the swordsmith when talking of what Enma can or can't do.

 

[kkck]

I would maintain the following points:

1.- Flow is simply haki projection or imbuement. Haki "flows" from the body outward or to a weapon or a ranged slash.

2.- There are multiple ways for haki to allow damage without contact. One is conqueror haki cladding and the other is projected armor haki (like what sentoumaru or rayleigh do). Interestingly, the technique to cause internal damage which is the next stage of haki emission actually usually results in physical contact even though when luffy trained he was able to cause damage to things without touching them.

3.- When the sky has split in clashes between top tier conqueror haki users there has been contact between their weapons. But when roger and whitebeard clashed the skies didn't split. This suggests that at a higher tier conqueror haki does not result ranged damage. Crackpot theory regarding what the mechanics here are:

1. Armor haki's most basic form is an invisible armor which covers your body. Through training you learn how to harden your body and to project it outward. First the way sentoumaru and swordsmen do and then you learn how to cause internal damage with it.
2. Conqueror's haki most basic form is pretty much a... wave that travels from your body and hits everyone. With some more training you learn to focus it and learn to target specific people in a crowd. With further training you learn to "clad" your body in it resulting in the standard ranged attacks we have seen from luffy, kaido, big mom, rogers and WB. Then with further training you use the cladding but without the ranged aspect. Basically it's mechanism and development is the opposite of regular armor haki. Whereas with armor haki you learn to project your haki outward as you master it with conqueror haki you learn to focus your haki into specific points.

4.- As suggested by the crackpot theory concerning the mechanics of armor and conqueror haki, both are independent and stack.

5.- BM's scream at WCI was kinda BS. A scream that can paralyze even YC1 fighters... Given the ability to clad CoC onto fists... it seems likely you can clad other stuff with it. Swords (like what kaido thought zoro did to him), range slashes... And perhaps screams. I am obviously not the only one with this theory but CoC being a viable and relevant weapon makes this pretty likely. Maybe there are conqueror haki applications with your senses as well...

 

[Nie Li]

When the sky has split in clashes between top tier conqueror haki users there has been contact between their weapons. But when roger and whitebeard clashed the skies didn't split. This suggests that at a higher tier conqueror haki does not result ranged damage. Crackpot theory regarding what the mechanics here are:

The sky was clear when Roger and Whitebeard clashed, right?

Shanks vs Whitebeard and Kaido vs Big Mom both happened under a stormy, black, clouded sky and they basically split the clouds.

Isn't it possible that the clash between Roger and Whitebeard could have caused the same effect if the sky wasn't already clear?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Except when the Yonkou believes Zoro has CoC, got it.

Except a Yonko doesn't believe Zoro has CoC. They are unsure if Zoro has CoC. Huge difference

See it's those subtle difference that you miss...

That's why context matters so much. Both Kaido and Big Mom say Enma has a strange haki. Or that there is something beyond the nature that you need to be cautious about.

The context of Zoro's fight on the roof top tells us ther is something beyond just Zoro's haki at work

 

[Nie Li]

Except a Yonko doesn't believe Zoro has CoC. They are unsure if Zoro has CoC. Huge difference

So Kaido is sure that Enma works any different than how the swordsmith explained and is sure Enma has additional powers, got it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

So Kaido is sure that Enma works any different than how the swordsmith explained and is sure Enma has additional powers, got it.

Finally you get it. Awesome, yes. Proud of you my dude

 

[Nie Li]

Finally you get it. Awesome, yes. Proud of you my dude

That sarcasm was aimed at making you notice how faulted your argument is. If you truly believe that Kaido's "opinion" (his opinion being "I don't even know what this is but it reminds me of Oden. Oh, right, it's because it was Oden's!") somehow is more meaningful than the facts that the world's greatest swordsmith (who is actually from Wano and the son of the person that forged Enma) told us, then we have nothing to discuss about since we'll get nowhere.

Taking Kaido's confusion over Enma as a fact over any other evidence (saying that "A Yonkou knows best") while entirely disregarding the possibility of Zoro having CoC despite Kaido believing Zoro has CoC (which he actually addressed directly) is the epitome of cherrypicking.

 

[Pirate Queen]

That sarcasm was aimed at making you notice how faulted your argument is. If you truly believe that Kaido's "opinion" (his opinion being "I don't even know what this is but it reminds me of Oden. Oh, right, it's because it was Oden's!") somehow is more meaningful than the facts that the world's greatest swordsmith (who is actually from Wano and the son of the person that forged Enma) told us, then we have nothing to discuss about since we'll get nowhere.

Taking Kaido's confusion over Enma as a fact over any other evidence (saying that "A Yonkou knows best") while entirely disregarding the possibility of Zoro having CoC despite Kaido believing Zoro has CoC (which he actually addressed directly) is the epitome of cherrypicking.

No shit you were being sarcastic

It's entirely possible Zoro has CoC. I have said this several times. It's possible, but due to Kaido being unsure. I am unconvinced until I know for sure Zoro has it. Nothing we've seen so far tells us he has it.

There are multiple times Kaido AND Big Mom said Enma was strange or alluded to it in some why and your counter is basically "nope its Zoro's haki" like somehow Zoro's haki is special in some way lol.

Come on now.

Do you think Zoro could have gotten this far without Enma? Please.

Zoro would have been able to use ANY sword if all Enma did was drain his haki and send it out.

Talk about cherry picking