Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[kkck]

Hyogoro didn't say all the Haki.

In every panel with Hyogoro, he focuses and puts emphasis on Haki flowing. Once Haki flows, it seems to magically gain all these additional qualities and abilities.

He never says all the Haki has to be focused on 1 part, he simply says to let it flow from parts of the body not using it. I don't think that means you can't still be protected, I think as long as the Haki flows, it is Advanced Haki that can be projected or internalised to do damage.

It's still weird that luffy's body would remain hardened if haki is flowing from most of his body towards his arms to pour into kaido. Given how hyoguro framed things it should be reasonable that at least luffy's hardening from the rest of his body weakens as haki flows to other limbs. Assuming the description given by hyogoro even allows room for haki to remain behind..

 

[Moss Green]

My point in my post is that we specifically see haki not working like hyogoro mentions it does. You have gear 4 luffy. Hardened haki is an integral part of how gear 4 works. Luffy clads most of his body in it and uses to also manipulate his elasticity. However we see gear 4 luffy using haki projection at the highest level and his body is still hardened. Even though, based on hyoguro's explanation, haki should be flowing from his body into his fists and out of them.

Under that line of thinking they were already defenseless. Putting armament on your fist is like putting on a gauntlet. I’ll have to reread Rayleigh’s explanation but I don’t believe there’s a thin layer of Haki around your body at all times or something like Nen.

I think the answer to your question is that Luffy needs to Flow into his whole arm in Gear 4 not just his fist. His attacks bringing his fist into his body don’t work without Haki throughout his arm. So the excess Haki from his torso is flowing into his arms as he maintains Gear 4. That’s how I see it at least

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's still weird that luffy's body would remain hardened if haki is flowing from most of his body towards his arms to pour into kaido. Given how hyoguro framed things it should be reasonable that at least luffy's hardening from the rest of his body weakens as haki flows to other limbs. Assuming the description given by hyogoro even allows room for haki to remain behind..

Hyogoro said unnecessary Haki.

Unnecessary should mean he will still have Haki in places that are necessary. The unnecessary Haki is probably what is flowing while the necessary is clad around his body in Gear 4th.

 

[kkck]

Hyogoro said unnecessary Haki.

Unnecessary should mean he will still have Haki in places that are necessary. The unnecessary Haki is probably what is flowing while the necessary is clad around his body in Gear 4th.

That's also another big pill to swallow. Suddenly there is also unnecessary haki that is covering this areas? This raises more questions than it answers regarding haki mechanics. Why is there unnecessary haki? Can characters just learn to not be wasteful since haki is a limited resource? Or is this waste unavoidable and can only be harnessed via projecting it? In which case it's basically free power? This is all more annoying than anything.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2021 ---

Under that line of thinking they were already defenseless. Putting armament on your fist is like putting on a gauntlet. I’ll have to reread Rayleigh’s explanation but I don’t believe there’s a thin layer of Haki around your body at all times or something like Nen.

I think the answer to your question is that Luffy needs to Flow into his whole arm in Gear 4 not just his fist. His attacks bringing his fist into his body don’t work without Haki throughout his arm. So the excess Haki from his torso is flowing into his arms as he maintains Gear 4. That’s how I see it at least

Wait what? Why would they already be defenseless? My assumption was that at least the basic form of armor haki was constant. Since otherwise you risk getting hit in a spot without haki by haki. It is a bit HxH like though my assumption up to this point was that haki was less restrictive than nen in this aspect. In HxH you have an overall nen pool from which you can draw and a maximum amount you can draw at a time and control. Haki seems more like you can simply draw in more and more with less restrictions.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That's also another big pill to swallow. Suddenly there is also unnecessary haki that is covering this areas? This raises more questions than it answers regarding haki mechanics. Why is there unnecessary haki? Can characters just learn to not be wasteful since haki is a limited resource? Or is this waste unavoidable and can only be harnessed via projecting it? In which case it's basically free power? This is all more annoying than anything.

All we know for certain is Gear 4th is completely clad in Haki, and even in that instance, there's still Haki that can be utilised for flow from the body that doesn't need it.
Not sure what the mechanic are.

 

[Moss Green]

That's also another big pill to swallow. Suddenly there is also unnecessary haki that is covering this areas? This raises more questions than it answers regarding haki mechanics. Why is there unnecessary haki? Can characters just learn to not be wasteful since haki is a limited resource? Or is this waste unavoidable and can only be harnessed via projecting it? In which case it's basically free power? This is all more annoying than anything.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2021 ---

Wait what? Why would they already be defenseless? My assumption was that at least the basic form of armor haki was constant. Since otherwise you risk getting hit in a spot without haki by haki. It is a bit HxH like though my assumption up to this point was that haki was less restrictive than nen in this aspect. In HxH you have an overall nen pool from which you can draw and a maximum amount you can draw at a time and control. Haki seems more like you can simply draw in more and more with less restrictions.

I just meant that when Luffy is using Elephant Gun or Red Hawk there is only Haki on his fist, not his face for example. In reference to your original post. The difference is most of the time people aren’t protecting their faces from punches with Haki. We’ve seen Luffy use it on his forehead once or twice I think though. In One Piece it’s just not a major concern because no ones getting 1 shot with a punch like that bar Bellamy.

Yea I don’t think Oda’s intention with flow was for you to be able to put “100%” of your Haki in a punch like Janken Guu or Deku’s attacks. It’s just a step-up from armament. A rather useless one at that.

 

[kkck]

I just meant that when Luffy is using Elephant Gun or Red Hawk there is only Haki on his fist, not his face for example. In reference to your original post. The difference is most of the time people aren’t protecting their faces from punches with Haki. We’ve seen Luffy use it on his forehead once or twice I think though. In One Piece it’s just not a major concern because no ones getting 1 shot with a punch like that bar Bellamy.

Yea I don’t think Oda’s intention with flow was for you to be able to put “100%” of your Haki in a punch like Janken Guu or Deku’s attacks. It’s just a step-up from armament. A rather useless one at that.

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that armor haki is passively active when haki users in this series fight. Hardening is the one that requires activation and has a physical cue.

Well, haki projection does provide a meaningful increase in power. It's definitely not useless. The problem is that mechanic wise oda just threw a bunch of seemingly random words at us that don't explain much. like the bit with hyogoro and excess haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well, haki projection does provide a meaningful increase in power. It's definitely not useless.

Not sure how anyone can think Advanced Haki is useless when it's the only reason Kaido can be hurt by scabbards or Luffy.

Not only does it increase power dramatically, it reduces the need to exert one's self physically which would mean one can save stamina for longer I guess.

The problem is that mechanic wise oda just threw a bunch of seemingly random words at us that don't explain much. like the bit with hyogoro and excess haki.

It's not all that problematic.

There isn't much of a problem if there's residual or excess Haki that leaks when used. It just means even when one can use Haki, there's still ways to be more efficient with it. Kind of like Ichigo who had all the spirit pressure, but didn't have good control over it for a long time.

Hyogoro's explanations have been pretty straight forward when paired with observations we've made from Luffy and Scabbards.

 

[Moss Green]

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that armor haki is passively active when haki users in this series fight. armor haki is the one that requires activation and has a physical cue.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree there I guess.

Not sure how anyone can think Advanced Haki is useless when it's the only reason Kaido can be hurt by scabbards or Luffy.

That’s the thing though the Scabbards nor Luffy never REALLY hurt Kaido. For the Yonkou it’s been made abundantly clear that if you don’t have CoC cladding you’re not even a threat.

However I say “useless” because we’ve already seen Luffy take down a YC1 without it, we’re about to see Sanji take down a YC2 presumably without it , and Zoro appears to be set up to take down a YC1 when he doesn’t even understand he’s using it yet. Or if you disagree with me about how Enma works NOT using it. We can assume but we don’t know if anyone other than Luffy is actually using it and we can’t even tell when he is. See what I mean?

Oda needs to make a visual cue for it so that we understand exactly when it’s being used otherwise it’s impossible to tell.

 

[kkck]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree there I guess.



That’s the thing though the Scabbards nor Luffy never REALLY hurt Kaido. For the Yonkou it’s been made abundantly clear that if you don’t have CoC cladding you’re not even a threat.

However I say “useless” because we’ve already seen Luffy take down a YC1 without it, we’re about to see Sanji take down a YC2 presumably without it , and Zoro appears to be set up to take down a YC1 when he doesn’t even understand he’s using it yet. Or if you disagree with me about how Enma works NOT using it. We can assume but we don’t know if anyone other than Luffy is actually using it and we can’t even tell when he is. See what I mean?

Oda needs to make a visual cue for it so that we understand exactly when it’s being used otherwise it’s impossible to tell.

The scabbards and luffy definitely hurt kaido with their attacks. Just not too much. Even before luffy learned how to use CoC cladding kaido specifically wondered how luffy was doing what he was doing.

Invisible armor haki has been present since before the timeskip. And yeah, there is definitely some confusion at times regarding whether it is being used or not. But when it comes to high level combat in this series the assumption that it is a thing just makes more sense. Imagine all these characters taking armor haki attacks without any haki defense whatsoever most times.. We know how big a difference haki makes. Even rayleigh's haki explanation specifically uses invisible projected haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That’s the thing though the Scabbards nor Luffy never REALLY hurt Kaido. For the Yonkou it’s been made abundantly clear that if you don’t have CoC cladding you’re not even a threat.

They hurt Kaido.

What they didn't do is deal lasting damage.

Kaido actually dodged Luffy's attack prior to King's Haki.

Don't think you're automatically not a threat just because King's Haki can't be used.

However I say “useless” because we’ve already seen Luffy take down a YC1 without it

He never used it against any Yonko's commander.

He didn't use his full powers up until Kaido. As Zoro, Jimbei and Sanji told him... save your strength for Kaido.

Spoiler

He used Gear 3rd without Flow against Ulti, he was saving Flow for Kaido.

A gear 3rd Flow attack knocked Kaido down. No way such an attack affects him, and not a Yonko Commander. Luffy simply used a normal Haki attack.

Oda needs to make a visual cue for it so that we understand exactly when it’s being used otherwise it’s impossible to tell.

A visual cue would have been best,

We can however guess if Kaido's hurt, then they're at the very minimum using Flow.

And as far as the translation I've read says, Enma which isn't the same as flow unless one reads the translation that may suggest flow, but contradicts the Mangastream and Viz which say otherwise about Enma.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2021 ---

The scabbards and luffy definitely hurt kaido with their attacks. Just not too much. Even before luffy learned how to use CoC cladding kaido specifically wondered how luffy was doing what he was doing.

I don't think Kaido was confused about how Luffy was capable of hurting. It was more he was surprised that Luffy grew stronger despite the fact he defeated him at Kuri and sent him to prison to have his spirit broken. I think he was aware that Luffy must have learnt flow.

Although, it seems it's not possible to distinguish Flow being used since Kaido was wondering how the Scabbards were capable of stabbing him. He underestimated their strength since he never fought them before by the looks of it, and assumed they'd be fodder.

When he asked himself how the scabbards were hurting him, he asked if they had similar Haki to Oden and then remembered Oden saying not to underestimate his scabbards.

Spoiler

Also, he said something along the lines of "why do their blades pierce me when they do not resemble Oden's Sword"; Kaido asked why Zoro's Sword resembles Oden's or rather, he asked why he can feel his presence; to me, these contrasting views seem to imply Kaido associated the weird changes that Enma can do to Haki with Oden actual Haki based on the sensation and vibes from Enma attacks.
When he got attacked by the scabbards and got stabbed without the same sensation and aura he got from Enma which he associates with Oden, he got confused that these people hurt him with this special Haki that Enma modifies Haki into.
He mistook the changes Enma makes to Oden's Haki as actually the way his Haki feels in general whereas in reality, Enma was the one changing his Haki and that's why he's thinking of Oden when Zoro used Enma.

He later realises that the weird Haki and the ability to hurt is the result of Oden's Sword.

Spoiler

At least, that's how it's made sense to me.

But when it comes to high level combat in this series the assumption that it is a thing just makes more sense.

This is more or less how I view it. If they're Haki users, I just assume they're using it.

 

[Moss Green]

The scabbards and luffy definitely hurt kaido with their attacks. Just not too much. Even before luffy learned how to use CoC cladding kaido specifically wondered how luffy was doing what he was doing.

Invisible armor haki has been present since before the timeskip. And yeah, there is definitely some confusion at times regarding whether it is being used or not. But when it comes to high level combat in this series the assumption that it is a thing just makes more sense. Imagine all these characters taking armor haki attacks without any haki defense whatsoever most times.. We know how big a difference haki makes. Even rayleigh's haki explanation specifically uses invisible projected haki.

Well that’s my point. They were able to nick and scratch him but do no lasting damage. Luffy was a step up from that but until CoC he wasn’t even really in the fight, it was 5 on 2. And even then Luffy got stomped. In a 5 on 2 fight with team at

We don’t have to imagine it? We’ve seen Luffy get with Haki and he just says some version of “it actually hurts” or “why does it hurt I’m rubber”. It also happens every single fight. Luffy v Doffy. Luffy v Katakuri. Saying there’s an invisible layer of Haki around fighters at all times is a pretty large assumption that to my knowledge has not been suggested or supported in the manga.

He never used it against any Yonko's commander.

That’s what I said. And I was referring to Katakuri. My point was that we’ve seen 3 commanders fight now, Cracker, Katakuri, and “Jack”. Only Jack came up against Flow users, Inu and Neko. We’re now going to see 2 additional YC commander fights, Queen and King. We know Sanji doesn’t know Flow and we’re speculating Zoro may or may not based on your interpretation of Enma. If they are both shown 2 need it against them that will create a very large disparity between the Beast and Big Mom Pirates commanders.

The point being that YC commanders portrayal with regard to needing Flow to face them is inconsistent and as I said earlier against the Yonkou not relevant in a 1 on 1.

If they do need it for Queen and King it will honestly make the generic rankings of YC1/2/3 etc. immaterial because their strengths are not consistent across crews

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That’s what I said. And I was referring to Katakuri. My point was that we’ve seen 3 commanders fight now, Cracker, Katakuri, and “Jack”. Only Jack came up against Flow users, Inu and Neko. We’re now going to see 2 additional YC commander fights, Queen and King. We know Sanji doesn’t know Flow and we’re speculating Zoro may or may not based on your interpretation of Enma. If they are both shown 2 need it against them that will create a very large disparity between the Beast and Big Mom Pirates commanders.

The point being that YC commanders portrayal with regard to needing Flow to face them is inconsistent and as I said earlier against the Yonkou not relevant in a 1 on 1.

If they do need it for Queen and King it will honestly make the generic rankings of YC1/2/3 etc. immaterial because their strengths are not consistent across crews

I wouldn't say it's inconsistent. Luffy didn't need flow, but Luffy did make 2 comments about both Cracker and Katakuri.

Spoiler

Luffy commented both Cracker and Katakuri had exceptional Haki strength. Maybe they were also capable of using Flow, albeit, at a very low level. They may not have mastered it to the point of the Scabbards, hard to say.

Also, we know for a fact that Katakuri could have killed Luffy anytime really. He was beat and Luffy only survived because Katakuri allowed him to grow midfight, injured himself to even the playing field and at some point, he disregarded his role as a commander and just wanted a good fight.

Against Cracker, he should have lost. Nami, the Vivre card and Luffy running away caused Cracker to lose his composure and he lost as a result of frustration with Luffy's cowardly tactics to be brutally honest. Katakuri lost his composure against Luffy too and said he now understands how Cracker lost meaning... Katakuri knew full well that Cracker nor himself should be capable of losing to Luffy, but Luffy can be annoying and their intolerance was the chink in their armour.

Spoiler

Strength is not entirely all Haki too, DFs can affect that balance. Scabbards would probably lose to Joker, Cracker and Katakuri given that these guys have abilities that make them difficult to fight.

Luffy had inferior Haki to both his foes, but with Gear 4th... he bridges that gap with the added power of rubber with more tension.

These guys are also Zoans, so they have very good recovery abilities. I think their strengths are pretty much equal in the scheme of things, or at the very least, they're just all extremely powerful one way or the other. They have things they're strong at and things they're weak at, but they make up for their weaknesses with their strengths.

I'd say it's a lot more to do with stylistics. If you have to fight Joker, while FLOW would be great, it wouldn't change the fact he can turn his surrounding into strings... he can create millions of strings to attack multiple people at once without lifting a finger... he can hide behind strings.. there's so much versatility that by the time one even gets in fighting range, they may well be too weak to do anything.
Against the Zoans, might require Flow, and the fight might be as arduous as fighting someone with an ability as complex as Joker or Cracker. Their durability may make it necessary to put them down for good unless fighting for days.

In my opinion, it's more circumstantial.

On another note, all commanders aren't equal. Marco was fighting 2 commanders at once, that's not equal strength. Rayleigh is probably even stronger than Marco and likely to be as strong as an Emperor. I think commanders are the strongest within their respective crews, but I don't think commanders are all equal even between Emperors.

 

[kkck]

We don’t have to imagine it? We’ve seen Luffy get with Haki and he just says some version of “it actually hurts” or “why does it hurt I’m rubber”. It also happens every single fight. Luffy v Doffy. Luffy v Katakuri. Saying there’s an invisible layer of Haki around fighters at all times is a pretty large assumption that to my knowledge has not been suggested or supported in the manga.

Haki wouldn't stop haki from affecting luffy. That's never been how this works.

 

[Moss Green]

Haki wouldn't stop haki from affecting luffy. That's never been how this works.

Haha no my point is getting hit by a Haki attack without defending yourself with Haki is not the devastating attack you’re making it out to be because it happens constantly in a fight. So where we disagree is that I don’t think getting hit by a regular armament Haki punch is a big deal in general, where you don’t think it’s a big deal because characters either actively or passively defend themselves from punches with invisible Haki

I wouldn't say it's inconsistent. Luffy didn't need flow, but Luffy did make 2 comments about both Cracker and Katakuri.

Spoiler

Luffy commented both Cracker and Katakuri had exceptional Haki strength. Maybe they were also capable of using Flow, albeit, at a very low level. They may not have mastered it to the point of the Scabbards, hard to say.

Also, we know for a fact that Katakuri could have killed Luffy anytime really. He was beat and Luffy only survived because Katakuri allowed him to grow midfight, injured himself to even the playing field and at some point, he disregarded his role as a commander and just wanted a good fight.

Against Cracker, he should have lost. Nami, the Vivre card and Luffy running away caused Cracker to lose his composure and he lost as a result of frustration with Luffy's cowardly tactics to be brutally honest. Katakuri lost his composure against Luffy too and said he now understands how Cracker lost meaning... Katakuri knew full well that Cracker nor himself should be capable of losing to Luffy, but Luffy can be annoying and their intolerance was the chink in their armour.

Spoiler

Strength is not entirely all Haki too, DFs can affect that balance. Scabbards would probably lose to Joker, Cracker and Katakuri given that these guys have abilities that make them difficult to fight.

Luffy had inferior Haki to both his foes, but with Gear 4th... he bridges that gap with the added power of rubber with more tension.

These guys are also Zoans, so they have very good recovery abilities. I think their strengths are pretty much equal in the scheme of things, or at the very least, they're just all extremely powerful one way or the other. They have things they're strong at and things they're weak at, but they make up for their weaknesses with their strengths.

I'd say it's a lot more to do with stylistics. If you have to fight Joker, while FLOW would be great, it wouldn't change the fact he can turn his surrounding into strings... he can create millions of strings to attack multiple people at once without lifting a finger... he can hide behind strings.. there's so much versatility that by the time one even gets in fighting range, they may well be too weak to do anything.
Against the Zoans, might require Flow, and the fight might be as arduous as fighting someone with an ability as complex as Joker or Cracker. Their durability may make it necessary to put them down for good unless fighting for days.

In my opinion, it's more circumstantial.

On another note, all commanders aren't equal. Marco was fighting 2 commanders at once, that's not equal strength. Rayleigh is probably even stronger than Marco and likely to be as strong as an Emperor. I think commanders are the strongest within their respective crews, but I don't think commanders are all equal even between Emperors.

Totally fair. Can’t disagree with a single thing you said

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I suppose it's not impossible that the CoC originated from Enma. However, it was never implied this is the case.

While Kaido noticed there was something odd about Enma's power, he outright stated Zoro had CoC.

Also, Zoro used Enma from the beggining, while Kaido only noticed CoC in the last attack.

Lastly, there's no visual indication that Zoro used CoC infusion on Kaido. I believe Zoro released his CoC similar to Luffy pre-timeskip.

Not that CoC originates from Enma.

King's Haki seems to be just an upgrade from Armament Haki; Armament - Advanced Armament -King's Haki.

Kaido got cut, and assumed Zoro was a King's Haki user which he isn't. It implies the level of Haki needed to hurt Kaido must have the power of King's Haki which implies it's a level of power/hardness.... the highest level.

Enma hurts Kaido, Kaido assumes Zoro is a King's Haki user which to me implies Enma allows Zoro to use attacks that range from Advanced Haki to King's Haki because it modifies Haki.

I'm sure you've seen me say Zoro didn't use King's Haki since there's no visual, however... I'm not saying Zoro or Enma use King's Haki, I'm saying Enma is so strong Zoro can do things without possessing even Advanced Armament and still hurt Kaido unlock Scabbards and Luffy. Enma is taking his strength to levels that are only possible with Advanced Armament to weaponised King's Haki.

That's the way it looks to me. It's not stated, but to me it's clearly implied and more so when people read the most accurate of translations - VIZ.

 

[Fox666]

King's Haki seems to be just an upgrade from Armament Haki; Armament - Advanced Armament -King's Haki.

Someone must have been born with CoC to use it... so I don't think it can be upgraded...

Of course infusing CoA with CoC is something I quite don't understand yet. I thought it was something fundamentally different.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Someone must have been born with CoC to use it... so I don't think it can be upgraded...

Of course infusing CoA with CoC is something I quite don't understand yet. I thought it was something fundamentally different.

It's not an upgrade.

It's just a level of strength.

The sword can reach CoC levels of strength is my point, not that Zoro's Haki is being upgraded.

If CoC = power level 100. Zoro might be 60 and the Sword gives him +50 making him 110 in power which is CoC territory in this example.

 

[kkck]

It's also simply possible that the sword is drawing out zoro's conqueror haki without him noticing him. Because why not?

 

[john ellis]

while i do prefer not to use "cannon" sources. Zoro has knocked out of people out with "will" in the anime as of lately. Even if it's a running gag people mistaking zoro's actions as CoC. Jokes have to orginate somewhere, and zoro has alot of signs of being a CoC user. Like one of the experts of advance CoC basically confirmed Zoro had CoC. I also think Advanced CoC isn't just the hardness required enough to hurt a yonko.

I think it's much deeper. The reason why Kaido knows zoro has Coc is because the wound hurts with his will. Coc is the abillity to exhert your will over nature. The advanced application is to imbue your very being with that will. As such attacks you launch while being imbued with it have a lingering impact on your opponents. The reason the 9RS could hurt kaido is because there haki was strong enough to cause minor wounds. But they all lacked the will to apply lasting damage to kaido. Zoro and oden probably both hit him with advanced Coc, which caused a lingering wound. Much like "blackbeard" did to shanks. Although i could see it being the spirit of rocks using the advance Coc to hurt shanks, and not the actual blackbeard. As i don't think blackbeard himself has Coc. Well, not quite true i think either rocks spirit instead his body has coc, or if he's just a "normal" human he has Coc, either way blackbeard needs to have access to Coc.


Anyways a bit of a tangent. But i think attacks imbued with Coc, are not just powerful attacks, but attacks that exhert the will of the user on the envirnoment or person they get hit by.