Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Ellenate]

Did luffy use Coc's "no, i have a force field on, you can't hurt me" to phase through kaido's breath attack?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Did luffy use Coc's "no, i have a force field on, you can't hurt me" to phase through kaido's breath attack?

No he said it himself. He's just that durable/enduring.
He's doing things with his body that put Ancient Zoans to shame.

 

[Hrathgrath]

@Hannibal Psyche
I can’t seem to locate the post, but I’m sure you‘ll know the one I’m talking about.

We were discussing how I felt that Haki was created, cobbled together from existing skills, (and from a writing standpoint) long after the series began. The evidence given was Shanks using CoC in the beginning, and mantra in Skypiea. Shanks scaring off the sea king in the first chapter in similar, if not originally intended, to other manga works as a show of “bloodlust” (Sasuke in Naruto) or the typical “don’t fuck with me” look trope in shounen manga. I pointed out how CP9 didn’t have Haki and they were the high level assassins of the WG. You suggested that they may not have been capable, as not everyone is. Post Timeskip they have been revealed to use Haki. It’s been stated that every marine of vice admiral and above can use Haki, and we’ve seen lower ranks that can use it. The only explanation (in story) would be that they were specifically not trained in Haki, which would make no sense as they were the WG‘s assassins and a number of those targets would likely have fruit abilities, since fruit users tend to be more dangerous enemies/pirates/etc. So either they had Haki and didn’t use it, which would be ridiculous as assassins getting their asses kicked would use every skill in their repertoire to succeed against their opponent/target, or (more likely) based on all of that, Haki was created (cobbled together) around the time of the Amazon Lily arc, and has been refined from time to time as an idea ever since, being added to those characters that likely should have had it in the first place.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

We were discussing how I felt that Haki was created, cobbled together from existing skills, (and from a writing standpoint) long after the series began. The evidence given was Shanks using CoC in the beginning, and mantra in Skypiea. Shanks scaring off the sea king in the first chapter in similar, if not originally intended, to other manga works as a show of “bloodlust” (Sasuke in Naruto) or the typical “don’t fuck with me” look trope in shounen manga. I pointed out how CP9 didn’t have Haki and they were the high level assassins of the WG. You suggested that they may not have been capable, as not everyone is. Post Timeskip they have been revealed to use Haki. It’s been stated that every marine of vice admiral and above can use Haki, and we’ve seen lower ranks that can use it. The only explanation (in story) would be that they were specifically not trained in Haki, which would make no sense as they were the WG‘s assassins and a number of those targets would likely have fruit abilities, since fruit users tend to be more dangerous enemies/pirates/etc. So either they had Haki and didn’t use it, which would be ridiculous as assassins getting their asses kicked would use every skill in their repertoire to succeed against their opponent/target, or (more likely) based on all of that, Haki was created (cobbled together) around the time of the Amazon Lily arc, and has been refined from time to time as an idea ever sense, being added to those characters that likely should have had it in the first place.

Won't even bother responding anymore. At this point, you're just making arguments I can't take seriously.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Won't even bother responding anymore. At this point, you're just making arguments I can't take seriously.

Sure. Making arguments you can‘t refute. (Or understand?) ALL of CP9 can’t use HakI because they just aren’t as strong or experienced? If you were a World Government, you would hire a bunch of assassins that COULDN‘T USE a skill that allows you to fight and kill devil fruit users? Especially when you HAVE people that can?
Marine commanders- ”Well, we’ve got this strong kid, took cannonballs into the back, wanna spend years training him in all of these bad ass martial arts and make him an assassin and, just for kicks, let NOT spend the time making him an unstoppable government weapon by training him to use haki!”
Before it came out that they know Haki now, it could‘ve been said that they didn’t want them to be too powerful (even though that too would‘ve made very little sense as trained assassins), but now that they have been said to use it now that’s out the window.

 

[kkck]

It's fairly clear pre time skip cp0 were not haki users. And even nowadays the implication remains strong that it's only relatively elite marines that have access to haki. As in admirals, vice admirals ( whom we know are very numerous) and very few folk from lower ranks.

Cp9 membets likely just learned to use haki over the timeskip...

 

[Hrathgrath]

It's fairly clear pre time skip cp0 were not haki users. And even nowadays the implication remains strong that it's only relatively elite marines that have access to haki. As in admirals, vice admirals ( whom we know are very numerous) and very few folk from lower ranks.

Cp9 membets likely just learned to use haki over the timeskip...

I’ll concede that as a possibility, but it just doesn’t make sense to me why they wouldn’t have been trained in Haki, especially since they were already learning Rokushiki. I mean if you were putting together a group of your highest level assassins, wouldn’t you want to train them in the use of haki? I mean they had Lucci as a kid, and you can’t tell me that Haki would have been beyond him, considering his adept ability in Rokushiki.
Think of it like this. You want to put together a group of world class assassins. You can train them in: firearms, swordplay, Rokushiki, strength training, infiltration, combat tactics, and Haki. (Since it can be trained. Raleigh taught Luffy, the guy from that panel said “it normally takes years of training”). Would you leave out the greatest skill/ability for these world class assassins?

As always, sorry If this came off as shitty, definitely not intentional!

 

[kkck]

I’ll concede that as a possibility, but it just doesn’t make sense to me why they wouldn’t have been trained in Haki, especially since they were already learning Rokushiki. I mean if you were putting together a group of your highest level assassins, wouldn’t you want to train them in the use of haki? I mean they had Lucci as a kid, and you can’t tell me that Haki would have been beyond him, considering his adept ability in Rokushiki.
Think of it like this. You want to put together a group of world class assassins. You can train them in: firearms, swordplay, Rokushiki, strength training, infiltration, combat tactics, and Haki. (Since it can be trained. Raleigh taught Luffy, the guy from that panel said “it normally takes years of training”). Would you leave out the greatest skill/ability for these world class assassins?

As always, sorry If this came off as shitty, definitely not intentional!

Welp, smoker was nearing his 40s when he learned haki. The series in general simply does not handle haki users with any degree of consistency. By the time coby awakened haki he was entirely unfamiliar with it, as if he had never even heard of it. And yet he was being trained by garp. The kuja tribe in turn trains all its members in haki. And while that happens oda decides to throw in a gem about how haki is not taught or some bs and it is developed when your life is in danger and shit. So.... Haki is and isn't taught except when it isn't or is. Best way to decide how haki is handled in OP at a given time is to flip a coin.

 

[Fox666]

It's fairly clear pre time skip cp0 were not haki users. And even nowadays the implication remains strong that it's only relatively elite marines that have access to haki. As in admirals, vice admirals ( whom we know are very numerous) and very few folk from lower ranks.

Cp9 membets likely just learned to use haki over the timeskip...

Anyone can learn Haki. Regular habitants of Skypeia or Amazon Lily could use it.

According to the Vivre Card, the CP9 were Armament users pre-timeskip.

Is that really a surprise? The CP9 the ability to harden their bodies or damage Luffy's rubber body.

Also Luffy was attacked by two Vice-Admirals on Marineford using Rokushiki, and a few chapters later the Vice-Admirals were revealed to be Haki users.

It's not different from revealing that Mantra was Observation all along.

 

[Nie Li]

According to the Vivre Card, the CP9 were Armament users pre-timeskip.

Is that really a surprise? The CP9 the ability to harden their bodies or damage Luffy's rubber body.

This is only half-way accurate, it's a bit iffy. The vivre card does say Rokushiki is linked to haki somewhat, but doesn't specify to what degree or in what manner. Shigan, as recently used by Who's Who, is still recognized as a distinctive technique and not as just imbuing haki into the finger (which he was separately capable of). In fact, most CP9 members couldn't move while using tekkai, so tekkai certainly wasn't armament. Jyabura was considered specially skilled at tekkai because he could strike while using it and I don't remember if Lucci also could.

Spoiler: Also

If Lucci had been using haki when "stabbing" Luffy with his shigan he would have pierced him like he could easily do with his zoan nail while transformed.

Kami-e is probably linked to CoO. In fact there's basically no distinction between both skills but the CP9 guys almost never used kami-e for some reason. I only remember Lucci using it in actual combat (and Blueno when they were first showcasing the Rokushiki techniques in the Galley-La building).

 

[kkck]

Anyone can learn Haki. Regular habitants of Skypeia or Amazon Lily could use it.

According to the Vivre Card, the CP9 were Armament users pre-timeskip.

Is that really a surprise? The CP9 the ability to harden their bodies or damage Luffy's rubber body.

Also Luffy was attacked by two Vice-Admirals on Marineford using Rokushiki, and a few chapters later the Vice-Admirals were revealed to be Haki users.

It's not different from revealing that Mantra was Observation all along.

Agreed, anyone can learn haki. But within the marines it's the ones of relatively high rank that are haki users.

Dunno about the vivre cards but this is the reference I found:
" In the online revision of Lucci's card, the wording is changed from "Also learned Haki recently," to "Also strengthened his Rokushiki-related Haki". "
To me that sounds like how several techniques we have seen are implied to be connected to haki without the user necessarily being a full blown haki user. Like cutting through metal. Given how ennies lobby played out i would argue any CP9 member being a proper haki user would be a massive retcon at a minimum.

 

[Fox666]

Agreed, anyone can learn haki. But within the marines it's the ones of relatively high rank that are haki users.

I don't think it was ever implied that only Vice-Admirals or above use Haki

More like, at that rank it's almost guarantee everyone is a Haki user.

It's like saying that you shouldn't expect a pirate above 300,000,000 to not know Haki.

 

[Nie Li]

I don't think it was ever implied that only Vice-Admirals or above use Haki

More like, at that rank it's almost guarantee everyone is a Haki user.

It's like saying that you shouldn't expect a pirate above 300,000,000 to not know Haki.

They said having haki is a requisite to become viceadmiral, which anyways means you're entirely right that there can be people who aren't viceadmirals yet but have haki already, but Sentoumaru is the only example I can remember.

 

[kkck]

I don't think it was ever implied that only Vice-Admirals or above use Haki

More like, at that rank it's almost guarantee everyone is a Haki user.

It's like saying that you shouldn't expect a pirate above 300,000,000 to not know Haki.

Welp, sure, but that is also not what I said. Haki clearly has a learning curve and it takes years to get basic mastery of it. But we have seen a lot of middle and low rank marines and haki seems to be at least a relatively obscure skill among them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Welp, sure, but that is also not what I said. Haki clearly has a learning curve and it takes years to get basic mastery of it. But we have seen a lot of middle and low rank marines and haki seems to be at least a relatively obscure skill among them.

I think this is why some people think that CP9 not being able to use Haki is some sort of retcon now that they can use it... which is...

It's like a primary school kid being expected to understand calculus simply because they're in school... like progression is a foreign concept and not a thing. Can't just know everything just because the knowledge is at hand's reach, there's progression in knowledge... know 1 thing before you know the next thing, or learn one thing before trying to learn more advanced things.

Whoever thinks Koby not knowing about Haki means it was retconned hasn't done enough thinking... Koby has being in the Navy for just what, less than a year? We don't even have a good estimate on how long the SHs were sailing. Some say a month, some say 6 months, some say 9 or just under a year, we don't know.
We can't expect people still training to master certain things to know every single thing, they're low ranked.

Even for the CP9, they probably knew of Haki, but just knowing it doesn't mean one can use it. They were aiming and training towards being able to use it, but even then, it can take years to actually use it.

It requires training to awaken Haki, it requires training to then start using it even once it's awakened, it requires more training to strengthen it once it can be used, and the progression just gets exponentially harder.

Seeing characters use it doesn't mean it's easy to learn or master. We're just seeing the elites of the elites.

On top of that, from a writing perspective, is Oda supposed to shoot his load? Reveal everything in the first chapters Otherwise, everything is a retcon? By that notion, the entire One Piece after chapter 1 is a retcon because everything wasn't revealed in chapter 1.
Some people really just argue lacking critical information and no, this isn't a response to @Fox666 .

 

[Hrathgrath]

Welp, smoker was nearing his 40s when he learned haki. The series in general simply does not handle haki users with any degree of consistency. By the time coby awakened haki he was entirely unfamiliar with it, as if he had never even heard of it. And yet he was being trained by garp. The kuja tribe in turn trains all its members in haki. And while that happens oda decides to throw in a gem about how haki is not taught or some bs and it is developed when your life is in danger and shit. So.... Haki is and isn't taught except when it isn't or is. Best way to decide how haki is handled in OP at a given time is to flip a coin.

Which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me either with him being so famous for being the “white hunter” but definitely make more sense to me (at least acceptably believable) than a governments top assassins NOT being trained in their top skills.

Anyone can learn Haki. Regular habitants of Skypeia or Amazon Lily could use it.

According to the Vivre Card, the CP9 were Armament users pre-timeskip.

Is that really a surprise? The CP9 the ability to harden their bodies or damage Luffy's rubber body.

Also Luffy was attacked by two Vice-Admirals on Marineford using Rokushiki, and a few chapters later the Vice-Admirals were revealed to be Haki users.

It's not different from revealing that Mantra was Observation all along.

Bit they couldn’t though. The first time they used shigan on Luffy it bounced off in the same way bullets do. It wasn’t until the clawed users hit him with shigan that it did actual damage (the tips of their claws turning a blunt damage into a piercing damage), which says to me “no Haki used in that attack”.

And from a writing standpoint, since the term and effects of Haki as a group of abilities/skills had yet to make a true appearance, it makes more sense that Oda took a bunch of ideas he had previously and created a system for it. I think Rokushiki was his first attempt, since most of their techniques are very similar to Haki. Then Oda decided to go the “life energy manipulation” over “physical manipulation” (Rokushiki) and created Haki.

I think this is why some people think that CP9 not being able to use Haki is some sort of retcon now that they can use it... which is...

It's like a primary school kid being expected to understand calculus simply because they're in school... like progression is a foreign concept and not a thing. Can't just know everything just because the knowledge is at hand's reach, there's progression in knowledge... know 1 thing before you know the next thing, or learn one thing before trying to learn more advanced things.

Whoever thinks Koby not knowing about Haki means it was retconned hasn't done enough thinking... Koby has being in the Navy for just what, less than a year? We don't even have a good estimate on how long the SHs were sailing. Some say a month, some say 6 months, some say 9 or just under a year, we don't know.
We can't expect people still training to master certain things to know every single thing, they're low ranked.

Even for the CP9, they probably knew of Haki, but just knowing it doesn't mean one can use it. They were aiming and training towards being able to use it, but even then, it can take years to actually use it.

It requires training to awaken Haki, it requires training to then start using it even once it's awakened, it requires more training to strengthen it once it can be used, and the progression just gets exponentially harder.

Seeing characters use it doesn't mean it's easy to learn or master. We're just seeing the elites of the elites.

On top of that, from a writing perspective, is Oda supposed to shoot his load? Reveal everything in the first chapters Otherwise, everything is a retcon? By that notion, the entire One Piece after chapter 1 is a retcon because everything wasn't revealed in chapter 1.
Some people really just argue lacking critical information and no, this isn't a response to @Fox666 .

It CAN be trained. EVERYONE IS capable. Sure it takes years, so they say, unless it is awakened by shock or luck of birth, but to say they CHOSE not to train their top assassins in Haki is just gullibility. To say they couldn’t have trained a prodigy like Lucci in the 18 years he was training with the world government, is intentionally avoiding the issue. Either they always had Haki, which means they intentionally didn’t use it against Luffy (which makes no sense), or they didn’t have Haki. And if they didn’t have Haki (and it supposedly existed) then it makes no sense why not. The only thing that makes all of these things fit is that Oda simply hadn’t created (or completed and added to the OP world) the concept. It’s the simplest and most likely answer without having to dance around the subject trying to force things to make sense. Occam’s razor.

 

[hokageji]

didnt the databooks suggest that CP9 can use haki?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

didnt the databooks suggest that CP9 can use haki?

If it did, then it's wrong.

Databooks also said Shanks was an Emperor at 27 when he actually became an Emperor I think few years ago? Somewhere in his 30s.

If it sounds wrong or inaccurate, it probably is.

The CP9 were definitely not using Haki, they were using a martial art that emulated some aspects of Haki.

 

[kkck]

On top of that, from a writing perspective, is Oda supposed to shoot his load? Reveal everything in the first chapters Otherwise, everything is a retcon? By that notion, the entire One Piece after chapter 1 is a retcon because everything wasn't revealed in chapter 1.
Some people really just argue lacking critical information and no, this isn't a response to @Fox666 .

The issue here would be when it creates consistency errors. Take the overall context we had of CP9 when they were introduced:

• World's strongest intelligence agency
• IIRC, the strongest CP9 in history.
• On top of that, rob lucci is by far it's strongest member. As in, the strongest member of the group's strongest iteration.
• Kuma was surprised that rob lucci was defeated.

As we all know, CP9 had it's ass handed to it. Luffy won against lucci by a hair while the rest of the strawhats won difficult battles but with some margin of comfort which allowed them to more or less bulldoze their way through ennies lobby to freedom. And then we get to sambaody....

In sambaody the strawhats got a taste of what the new world would be like. It wasn't the first since they had faced aokiji before but it was still a huge impact. Not only because they faced kizaru but because they faced a pacifista... Against whom they barely won with the entire crew. And then marineford...

Luffy in marineford had a pretty good showing. But the fact of the matter is that luffy was viewed by anyone at the war with a name as a rookie. It's a pretty safe bet that WB's commanders and his 50 something captains would one shot or two shot luffy at the time. And plenty of their subordinates as well. Luffy could barely take two steps without people pointing out he was a rookie and out of his depth. Luffy walked out of the war alive because of an staggering amount of luck and because at times the bulk of WB's forces fought to keep him alive. Luffy's showing in the war was ultimately the result of the support he had rather than the overall strength he wielded at the time.

And then the pacifista. They looked cool and everything of course but in the end we saw how hancock had no trouble one shotting them. Even though each one was about strong enough to put up a damn good fight against the entire strawhat crew at the time. The pacifista's lasers are without a doubt powerful weapons and they would cause anyone some pain... But at this point I don't think the pacifista would even win against kaido's gifters... Let alone headliners or above.

As of this point the mystique around rob lucci is just weird. Because rob lucci can either be one of the world's big players or a rookie. He can't be both. And it's fairly clear that if ennies lobby rob luffy fought anyone in the new world with a name he'd end up dead.

And then there is the evolution of haki. In story haki went from a obscure and mysterious skill in part 1 to being the literal core of combat in this series. It acts as a great equalizer between BS devil fruit abilities (logia mostly) and martial arts of any type. Barring shananigans it's extremely difficult to be a competitive at the yonko executive level without it.

So then you have CP9... the world's second strongest intelligence agency... that is not competitive at all against people in the new world with names? And their members, most of whom were around their 30s. Close to 40 in jyabura's case. So.. they weren't exactly young either. They started fighting pretty young so they'd be fairly experience fighters by their 20s easily. And then... they didn't know how to use haki? Even if we make the case that the strawhats exhibit exceptional growth it seems fairly weird that people who have been fighting for 15 years or more don't exhibit some manner of it, specially if they are regarded as being exceptionally gifted fighters.

And this all plays into how oda has handled haki... No consistency at all. Haki can't be taught until it can. Flip a coin...

 

[Rein Avara]

The vivrecards imply that CP9 learnt haki during the timeskip.

Vivre Card Databook – Vol. 10 (all the new information!)

In this month’s Vivre Card packs we get a lot of new information on the Grand Fleet members and the former CP9 members! Let’s have a look!

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