Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[King Moe]

The context of his words have him referring to levels of haki in particular though, not his devil fruit. The context of the scene is his Squared Mochi technique, which seemingly uses a higher level of armament than before, overcoming Luffy's own Armament, causing Luffy pain. Juxtaposed with Kaido hitting Luffy with his mace and Luffy having the same reaction, it seems pretty hard to say that it was just Square Mochi, somehow, being specially able to overcome Luffy's haki.

Luffy shouldn't have been able to beat Katakuri with Future Sight either, yet here we are. Luffy managed to power through. Nevermind the fact that the gap between Luffy and Katakuri wasn't as large as the gap between Luffy and Kaido. Superior toolset doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't stand a chance. If that was the case, then Luffy should've been smashed by the Boa Sisters on Kuja Island since they knew Wano's form of advanced haki and Luffy had no mastery of it at all.

I mean stronger the fight, the Haki grows. Luffy show it here with Katakuri and again with Kaido now. It shows the stronger the fight can develop the Haki more not just with Luffy, but characters who haven't reach their Prime yet mostly too.

Though I do agree on Haki isn't enough to say who is stronger, but will say I feel Hancock could beat Luffy at the time in Amazon Lily as shouldn't underestimate her.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

If katakuri had had conqueror haki cladding luffy would simply not have been able to overcome him.

Not really.

King's Haki is more or less just stronger Armament Haki.

All Armament does is make things harder and as a result, attacks become more powerful.

It's possible to be so strong that you exceed the power of someone's strength + Haki strength combined - Luffy did that against the Gorgon sisters.

Just because Katakuri may have used King's Haki doesn't mean he's invisible, it only means he has a better advantage, not an absolute victory.

King's Haki which seems to be more or less Armament is a rule that implies once I'm activated, everything is redundant.

 

[Geez]

We've seen several CoC clashes now : Roger/ Whitebeard and Luffy / Kaidou clashes had the same drawn representation because the attacks don't make direct contact :

If Katakuri is indeed using CoC, as it potentially might be hinted by the panels where Luffy's hand are hurting. Then a clash between a CoC attack and a CoA attack doesn't include the same visual representation than CoC vs CoC : the attacks seem to connect.

Now, when Luffy surprised Kaidou twice, it had the same drawn representation :

So my question is : Did Kaidou protected himself with CoC ? If he wasn't, then Katakuri's punches were maybe something else.

 

[Nie Li]

We've seen several CoC clashes now : Roger/ Whitebeard and Luffy / Kaidou clashes had the same drawn representation because the attacks don't make direct contact :

If Katakuri is indeed using CoC, as it potentially might be hinted by the panels where Luffy's hand are hurting. Then a clash between a CoC attack and a CoA attack doesn't include the same visual representation than CoC vs CoC : the attacks seem to connect.

Now, when Luffy surprised Kaidou twice, it had the same drawn representation :

So my question is : Did Kaidou protected himself with CoC ? If he wasn't, then Katakuri's punches were maybe something else.

That representation might be just CoC + emission CoA.

In that sense, Katakuri could be a CoC user with no knowledge of emission CoA.

 

[kkck]

Not really.

King's Haki is more or less just stronger Armament Haki.

All Armament does is make things harder and as a result, attacks become more powerful.

It's possible to be so strong that you exceed the power of someone's strength + Haki strength combined - Luffy did that against the Gorgon sisters.

Just because Katakuri may have used King's Haki doesn't mean he's invisible, it only means he has a better advantage, not an absolute victory.

King's Haki which seems to be more or less Armament is a rule that implies once I'm activated, everything is redundant.

We did see katakuri burst out conqueror haki at some point during the fight. IIRC it knocked out his little sniper sister. Granted this is hard to discern but there was no indication either one's COC was substantially different from the other.

Going from there... Luffy overcoming an advantage as massive as conqueror haki cladding seems pretty damn improbable at best. By all indications katakuri's armor haki was as good or stronger than luffy's. Luffy more or less caught in terms of observation haki but odds are katakuri was at the end still at least somewhat more proficient at it than luffy. Luffy could only overcome katakuri's armor haki with gear 4 for that matter. Luffy overcoming katakuri's armor haki plus and extra layer of conqueror haki with just his regular haki doesn't seem likely or even logical.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

We did see katakuri burst out conqueror haki at some point during the fight. IIRC it knocked out his little sniper sister. Granted this is hard to discern but there was no indication either one's COC was substantially different from the other.

Yeah, I couldn't really tell, it looked exactly like Luffy's Haki punches.

Still odd given he said there's levels to Haki. Maybe his was simply stronger... Cracker's was also stronger than Luffy's Haki too, or at least, Luffy said Cracker's Haki was the hardest he'd ever felt.

Going from there... Luffy overcoming an advantage as massive as conqueror haki cladding seems pretty damn improbable at best. By all indications katakuri's armor haki was as good or stronger than luffy's. Luffy more or less caught in terms of observation haki but odds are katakuri was at the end still at least somewhat more proficient at it than luffy. Luffy could only overcome katakuri's armor haki with gear 4 for that matter. Luffy overcoming katakuri's armor haki plus and extra layer of conqueror haki with just his regular haki doesn't seem likely or even logical.

Stronger Haki isn't the end all be all.

One thing, Strength is everything. Whether it's from Haki, actual body strength, the combo. Gorgon sisters have showcased this.

However, defeating Katakuri with more advantages is not impossible, it's just less likely, but then again, that's what makes Luffy special. He overcomes the odds.

Even with Katakuri's superiority, he was still getting hurt by all of Luffy's attacks. So, if he was indeed using King's haki, it does prove that Haki strength isn't everything. Lots of other factors come into play.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, I couldn't really tell, it looked exactly like Luffy's Haki punches.

Still odd given he said there's levels to Haki. Maybe his was simply stronger... Cracker's was also stronger than Luffy's Haki too, or at least, Luffy said Cracker's Haki was the hardest he'd ever felt.


Stronger Haki isn't the end all be all.

One thing, Strength is everything. Whether it's from Haki, actual body strength, the combo. Gorgon sisters have showcased this.

However, defeating Katakuri with more advantages is not impossible, it's just less likely, but then again, that's what makes Luffy special. He overcomes the odds.

Even with Katakuri's superiority, he was still getting hurt by all of Luffy's attacks. So, if he was indeed using King's haki, it does prove that Haki strength isn't everything. Lots of other factors come into play.

It's definitely the case that haki is not the end all of combat in this series. BUT it is without a doubt the core of combat in this series. Within that, I would still argue that CoC cladding is a fundamentally OP skill for a variety of reasons. It's essentially an extra free layer of armor which also enhances offensive capacity which only the absurdly mighty can use to begin with. Luffy could overcome said layer with his regular haki but it took the most advance haki techniques around. And even then luffy noted that said haki techniques were still largely insufficient before he clad himself in conqueror haki. The scabbards have pretty advanced haki skills but their cuts were ultimately too shallow to do the trick. Law has managed to injure kaido essentially because his fruit provides him with shenanigans that can operate kaido even with his haki probably lagging. Kid so far has not actually managed injure big mom or kaido. He just managed to suplex kaido. And it still looks like the main reason big mom and kaido seem invulnerable to damage is conqueror haki basically. WB probably had some of that during his younger days as well considering the sheer effort ace had to put in just to get a scratch worth of damage in (though my guess is that both kaido and big mom still have higher natural resistance to damage than WB did at any point).

The core issue with the katakuri fight is that the whole thing was BS anyways. Luffy started the fight pretty much exhausted (he passed out from using gear 4 for a minute not that much earlier against big mom). Then through the fight luffy took way more damage than katakuri did... and then luffy still won because he nigh miraculously learned the most advanced form of CoO to date and a gear 4 which at the time didn't seem exactly justified (katakuri didn't have a speed advantage over luffy, just a CoO advantage, so hitting katakuri faster rather than harder seems to not exactly be justified, gear 4 should have been plenty fast enough for the job).

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's definitely the case that haki is not the end all of combat in this series.

It isn't or Luffy would have lost to the Gorgon sisters.

Katakuri had stronger Haki, but Luffy still won.

It's not the end all be all for sure.

BUT it is without a doubt the core of combat in this series.

Undeniably, but it doesn't mean the equation is quite as simple as I got stronger Haki then you, therefore, I win.

And it still looks like the main reason big mom and kaido seem invulnerable to damage is conqueror haki basically.

There's 0 evidence for this.

Kaido and Big Mom are durable because Big Mom was born having a flesh that's basically steel (she wasn't a Haki user as a kid) and Kaido's durability is either DF acquired or natural. Hard to say natural at this point given that even Yamato seems to be normal flesh, but it's not confirmed yet.

Haki is not infinite. There's no way a character can remain invulnerable at all times. Big Mom has always had insane durability.

Given that CoC being used to defend makes contact apparently impossible, it wouldn't make sense that Big Mom and Kaido have been physically made contact with if they were defending with CoC.

Kaido's also taken similar damage from the Scabbards, he was actually pierced. I doubt regular Haki should be able to pierce CoC based on what we've seen unless their Armament is just that strong as is their physical strength.

 

[Nie Li]

There's 0 evidence for this.

Kaido and Big Mom are durable because Big Mom was born having a flesh that's basically steel (she wasn't a Haki user as a kid) and Kaido's durability is either DF acquired or natural. Hard to say natural at this point given that even Yamato seems to be normal flesh, but it's not confirmed yet.

Haki is not infinite. There's no way a character can remain invulnerable at all times. Big Mom has always had insane durability.

Given that CoC being used to defend makes contact apparently impossible, it wouldn't make sense that Big Mom and Kaido have been physically made contact with if they were defending with CoC.

Kaido's also taken similar damage from the Scabbards, he was actually pierced. I doubt regular Haki should be able to pierce CoC based on what we've seen unless their Armament is just that strong as is their physical strength.

If Big Mom's invulnerability isn't related to haki, how does she lose all invulnerability after her CoC outbreaks? To the point of damaging her knees from falling to the ground.

She looks more like she has a Zaraki Kenpachi kind of invulnerability.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

If Big Mom's invulnerability isn't related to haki, how does she lose all invulnerability after her CoC outbreaks? To the point of damaging her knees from falling to the ground.

She looks more like she has a Zaraki Kenpachi kind of invulnerability.

So, she released King's Haki.

But she got injured.

If she released King's Haki unconsciously, shouldn't she be invulnerable in that moment?

It seems more psychological. Sometimes psychological states can affect one's physical state. Not that drastically, but it's likely exaggerated.


If Haki was protecting her all this time, then are you suggesting she was using Haki as a kid? When we know she couldn't use Haki?

Many characters in the series, or quite a few have invulnerable bodies. He was cowering, not using Haki, yet his body deflected a weapon coated in Armament Haki. His body is just naturally incredibly hard.

Big Mom was born as a ball of steel, that's all that's required to be invulnerable. She's just a freak of nature.

Moriah is similar, his body deflects Sword blades, bullets, spears. He doesn't even use Haki.

Some people are just freaks of nature in the series.

 

[Nie Li]

So, she released King's Haki.

But she got injured.

If she released King's Haki unconsciously, shouldn't she be invulnerable in that moment?

It seems more psychological. Sometimes psychological states can affect one's physical state. Not that drastically, but it's likely exaggerated.

I think it's the opposite.

There are two kinds of CoC: the "wave" kind that every CoC user has been using ever since pre-TS, and the imbuement kind that we just learnt is a thing last chapter.

When Big Mom gets mentally shocked, she releases a wave of CoC and becomes vulnerable. What I believe happens is that releasing the wave turns her CoC imbuement off for a few seconds. It can also be interpreted as her CoC being "redirected" from imbuement to the wave. I believe that adds up perfectly with what little we know about CoC so far, and it's less vague than her psychological state somehow making her body weaker than the natural resistance it's had since she was a kid.

If Haki was protecting her all this time, then are you suggesting she was using Haki as a kid? When we know she couldn't use Haki?

Many characters in the series, or quite a few have invulnerable bodies. He was cowering, not using Haki, yet his body deflected a weapon coated in Armament Haki. His body is just naturally incredibly hard.

Big Mom was born as a ball of steel, that's all that's required to be invulnerable. She's just a freak of nature.

Moriah is similar, his body deflects Sword blades, bullets, spears. He doesn't even use Haki.

Some people are just freaks of nature in the series.

I don't remember it being stated she had no haki as a kid, but I don't think her having unconscious coating and abnormal strength are exclusory. I think she was born with both or she developed them as a child at least.

Her strength is indeed no joke, but I believe this is what better explains her invulnerability's weakness that Capone tried to exploit.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

When Big Mom gets mentally shocked, she releases a wave of CoC and becomes vulnerable. What I believe happens is that releasing the wave turns her CoC imbuement off for a few seconds. It can also be interpreted as her CoC being "redirected" from imbuement to the wave. I believe that adds up perfectly with what little we know about CoC so far, and it's less vague than her psychological state somehow making her body weaker than the natural resistance it's had since she was a kid.

Still makes no sense.

No one can use Haki indefinitely, it will get depleted.

I don't remember it being stated she had no haki as a kid, but I don't think her having unconscious coating and abnormal strength are exclusory. I think she was born with both or she developed them as a child at least.

Her strength is indeed no joke, but I believe this is what better explains her invulnerability's weakness that Capone tried to exploit.

If she had it, it would have been said.

She was born as a giant, she was born as a freak of nature. The whole point about Big Mom is that she's physically abnormal. She's strong in every way humanly possible.

Again, no one can use Haki indefinitely.

There's a reason no one uses Armament Haki continuously, it will get depleted, it's used in doses. There's a reason Kakuri can't even use Observation 24/7.

If she were a Haki user, it'd have been said. Nonetheless, Haki can't be used continuously, it doesn't work like that.

If you need King's Haki to be invulnerable, then Moriah, Frunk Brothers and such are also King's Haki users.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2021 ---

In fact, Big Mom fell on her knees.

How does the lack of Haki even make that happen.

Luffy, Nami... anyone could fall on the floor and they wouldn't hurt their knees despite the lack of Haki.

Big Mom bleeding wouldn't make sense as being anything Haki based.

 

[HereNThere]

Big Mom (and Kaido) having a sort of natural affinity for CoC or haki in general that lends to their overall durability would make sense.

If we view what she did as her expelling her "natural coat" of CoC Armament, then it would explain why her first outburst left her relatively normal and vulnerable while her second outburst of CoC allowed her to ignite the missiles, as if they hit a wall before reaching her or, potentially, if they were ignited from the inside due to her CoC.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

If we view what she did as her expelling her "natural coat" of CoC Armament, then it would explain why her first outburst left her relatively normal

Why wouldn't a character be able to use CoC coating and intimidation at the same time?

 

[Geez]

Big Mom (and Kaido) having a sort of natural affinity for CoC or haki in general that lends to their overall durability would make sense.

If we view what she did as her expelling her "natural coat" of CoC Armament, then it would explain why her first outburst left her relatively normal and vulnerable

Hypothetically, a CoC coat would be real hard to overpower, especially considering its superiority to CoA. Maybe it could be cracked by a absurd amount of strength + haki but the main threat would be a CoC attack.

Even if Zoro, greatly helped by Enma, did use unconsciously a bit of CoC or not, that could indeed explain Kaidou's reaction :

 

[HereNThere]

Hypothetically, a CoC coat would be real hard to overpower, especially considering its superiority to CoA. Maybe it could be cracked by a absurd amount of strength + haki but the main threat would be a CoC attack.

Even if Zoro, greatly helped by Enma, did use unconsciously a bit of CoC or not, that could indeed explain Kaidou's reaction :

Hard, yes, but as you already pointed out, it's not impossible as we saw with the Scabbards, Luffy, and Zoro. And I think it does explain the reaction. Luffy and Zoro have crossed the threshold that puts them in the realm of those at the pinnacle. The journey isn't close to being done, but the peak of the mountain is now within their sight when before, it couldn't even be seen.

This new facet to haki could also explain why Kaido has been able to be captured, but not executed. There are many haki users who are potentially strong enough to temporarily overcome him (in a group), but if you don't have CoC, you aren't going to be able to permanently end him.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Hard, yes, but as you already pointed out, it's not impossible as we saw with the Scabbards

You can't touch him if he's using CoC. We already saw Luffy defend with CoC and Kaido's kanobo couldn't touch him. It'd be impossible for the scabbards, their attacks did touch him implying he didn't use CoC to defend himself.

This new facet to haki could also explain why Kaido has been able to be captured, but not executed. There are many haki users who are potentially strong enough to temporarily overcome him (in a group), but if you don't have CoC, you aren't going to be able to permanently end him.

He'd have been bound in Kairoseki.

You can't use Haki with Kairoseki on.

Marines would have had him in Kairoseki if they were going to try to execute or experiment on him.

It means he's durable naturally regardless of Haki.

 

[Geez]

These are small interpretations of what we've seen here and there on Haki. Some seem kinda redundant, others may surprise and overall they'll probably irritate specific people. But remember it's just a vision, not a declaration of absolute truth.
I tried to make it the shortest possible.
(All quotes are VIZ translation)

Rayleigh introduces and explains Haki to Luffy :
"Everyone has Haki"
"Haki is a power"
"Ability to sense spiritual energy [...] overpower enemies"
Rayleigh explains CoC, a haki shade : "it's the embodiment of the spirit of the user"
Interpretation : Haki is a spiritual energy everyone has, it's a power allowing someone to sense others' haki + other spiritual energies and it increases the strength of attacks.

Rayleigh introduces and explains Haki to Luffy : "To never doubt... that is power"
Rayleigh explains how to use CoO : "attacks carry willpower, aura"
Luffy's reaction from Rayleigh's attack : L: "I sense ANGER !!"; R: "That's also Haki"
Interpretation : Haki carries willpower, feelings, aura, intentions, intimidation etc... Willpower may not be a power in itself as in "haki type of power", but it may affect Haki in quality.


Haki is a spiritual energy, it's affected by spirit.
Haki carries spirit traits [Willpower, ambition, intention, intimidation, feelings... etc] .
Spirit traits may affect Haki in quality, but the "strength" of CoA Haki and "level" of CoO haki are trainable.


Breath of all things
"The pinnacle of swordsmanship is the power to protect one wishes to protect, and cut what one whises to cut."
"I can hear it... the breathing of his steel..."
"My sword understands my will"
Interpretation : In higher forms, Haki can cut/connect with spiritual energies sensed by user and totally obeys his will.

Rayleigh explains Haki/Logia DF relationship : "Their fluid bodies [...] are vulnerable to this power !"
Interpretation : Haki attacks by-pass physical contact and affect logia users' spiritual energy directly
or it's just a magical power, bud

Rayleigh explains CoC
"it's the embodiment of the spirit of the user"
"This is the power to overwhelm"
Interpretation : CoC is directly linked to someone's spirit and its specific traits. It can overwhelm other spirits directly by dictating someone's own will on them.


Haki is a spiritual energy that can sense and connect with other spiritual energies : it allows detection of invisible people and contact with untangible DF users. CoC is a rare haki form directly linked to the user's spirit traits. It allows the user to impose its own will on the spirit of any living thing.


Hypothesis
Latest chapters teach us that CoC is coatable to attack with.
CoA is a coatable type of Haki and can be used to attack and defend.
If CoC works the same, it could also be clad to defend its user. And Yonkous are maybe already using it.
(Of course, it does not lessen heir insane durability)

CoC being directly linked to the user's spirit and its traits, high emotions/confusion may affect its power :
CoC defense might then weaken and let "weak" attacks pass through.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Rayleigh explains how to use CoO : "attacks carry willpower, aura"

Interpretation : Haki carries willpower, feelings, aura, intentions, intimidation etc... Willpower may not be a power in itself as in "haki type of power", but it may affect Haki in quality.

Rayleigh didn't say Haki carries willpower or aura.

Every attack is not based on Haki and it's not even about Haki.

Rayleigh's saying Attacks have a Will. By Will, he means they have an intention. He's saying if an attack wants to aim for your head, It's possible to tell the intention of the attack before it lands.

Literally all Rayleigh said was Attacks have an intention and a presence that can be sensed from Observation Haki.

Whether the attack has Haki or not, it has an intention and a presence.

Yet you claim because Rayleigh said Will, it affects haki quality?

You're deriving conclusions that were not remotely hinted.

Luffy's reaction from Rayleigh's attack : L: "I sense ANGER !!"; R: "That's also Haki"

When he said this, his point was Haki allows one to feel emotions of people. That's why Luffy can easily understand people. He can understand their emotions and know how they feel.

How exactly you concluded Will affects Haki quality from just this statement is quite the leap.

Rayleigh introduces and explains Haki to Luffy : "To never doubt... that is power"

Context.

The context was that Luffy was going to learn something that was difficult in 2 years that most people spend all their lives never unlocking or even being able to reach their potential.

It's like someone telling you to become a doctor in 2 years when it takes 10-15 years of studying and practicals.

Rayleigh's point here was simply believing in yourself to persevere with difficult tasks is a strength in itself. It will allow him to learn Haki just like believing in yourself can help one learn a new language, or a new subject.

You're taking things out of context or making interpretations that were not remotely hinted in regards to Haki.

 

[Geez]

Rayleigh didn't say Haki carries willpower or aura [...]
Literally all Rayleigh said was Attacks have an intention and a presence that can be sensed from Observation Haki. [...]
Yet you claim because Rayleigh said Will, it affects haki quality?

Rayleigh said :
"Haki is a power"
"Everyone has Haki"
It's an "Ability to sense spiritual energy"
"attacks carry willpower, aura "
About CoC : "It's the embodiment of the spirit user"

The reasoning behind the interpretation is as follows:
Haki is a power, power is energy.
Haki is always present with or without knowledge of a person.
CoO haki allows someone to sense spiritual energies, and that includes haki.
CoO haki allows someone to sense feelings, willpower, intention etc...
CoC is the spirit very manifestation and it imposes one's will over another, it conquers it

If CoC is a shade of haki, and it carries one's will at its purest form ("embodiment of the spirit"), then Haki can carry it.
Breath of all things highlight the "haki/will" relationship all the more.
Because Haki is a spiritual energy, it's intrinsically linked to spirit traits.
If will is a spirit's trait as CoC implies, then willpower is one too, etc...
When sensing feelings, willpower, intention etc... All the haki user's sensing is one of the numerous "colors" of Haki, whether it's used or not : Just as the widely used translation of Haki that you don't like suggests. Hint.

Note that it doesn't necessarily mean it lessens its strength, that's why I chose the word "quality".

When he said this, his point was Haki allows one to feel emotions of people. That's why Luffy can easily understand people. He can understand their emotions and know how they feel.

Well for this particular panel, you can't exclude my interpretation : Rayleigh was using haki in his attack.
I know it can't exclude yours either as it makes as much sense with the context, but it serves my vision.

Where I'm getting at is that haki and emotions are entangled, they give it a color, a quality.

The context was that Luffy was going to learn something that was difficult in 2 years that most people spend all their lives never unlocking or even being able to reach their potential.

We can't debate about this, we know it leads nowhere as we differ on context and interpretation.
Where I see one of the most important themes in One Piece, you see challenge in lust for power.