Discussion Natsu Dragneel/E.N.D Thread

[MangerDan]

I wouldn't be surprised if zeref's ultimate goal this arc is setting up natsu as a weapon against acnologia and everything else.

 

[kkck]

Why do people even think that God Slaying magic is a thing. It's just a copy of dragon slaying magic with a few advantages over them (Just look at zancrow who used an almost identical invocation as Natsu).

Dragon Slayers were probably seen as undefeatable gods and thus god slaying magic was created.

That doesn't make sense though. If god slaying magic was like that then zancrow at a tenth of his power would have lightly blown on natsu and obliterate him out of existence. More than that, slayer magics are defined by the user mimicking the properties and power of a specific creature in order to defeat that creature. A god slayer as you are attempting to define it would be nothing more than a dragon slayer (a being that imitates a being that imitates a dragon would end up imitating a dragon after all). And yet god slayers are rather different from dragon slayers. Which in conjunction with the fact that god slayer's magic isn't specially effective against dragon slayers pretty much rules out the possibility of what you are suggesting. Zancrow did have an advantage over natsu however it seems like that was a battle specific thing. The whole advantage thing was not present in the confrontations between laxus and orga or wendy and shelia. If anything they seemed completely able to hurt each other with their powers.

There is no reason for us to question the existence of beings referred to as gods that had powers akin to that of the god slayers we have seen. At worst they do not exist within the current setting of the manga however at least as far as we know god slaying magic is every bit as real as the manga implies.

 

[Kuroro]

That doesn't make sense though. If god slaying magic was like that then zancrow at a tenth of his power would have lightly blown on natsu and obliterate him out of existence. More than that, slayer magics are defined by the user mimicking the properties and power of a specific creature in order to defeat that creature. A god slayer as you are attempting to define it would be nothing more than a dragon slayer (a being that imitates a being that imitates a dragon would end up imitating a dragon after all). And yet god slayers are rather different from dragon slayers. Which in conjunction with the fact that god slayer's magic isn't specially effective against dragon slayers pretty much rules out the possibility of what you are suggesting. Zancrow did have an advantage over natsu however it seems like that was a battle specific thing. The whole advantage thing was not present in the confrontations between laxus and orga or wendy and shelia. If anything they seemed completely able to hurt each other with their powers.

There is no reason for us to question the existence of beings referred to as gods that had powers akin to that of the god slayers we have seen. At worst they do not exist within the current setting of the manga however at least as far as we know god slaying magic is every bit as real as the manga implies.

You didn't get my point did you ? In my opinion the author hinted that God Slaye magic is just a copy of Dragon Slayer magic. I'm not making up facts, just look at Zancrow who could eat natsu's flame while the opposite wasn't possible and Shelia who could heal herself while Wendy couldn't. Perhaps the name god slayer was used because that magic even surpassed Dragon slayers (without DF).

 

[metsujin]

You didn't get my point did you ? In my opinion the author hinted that God Slaye magic is just a copy of Dragon Slayer magic. I'm not making up facts, just look at Zancrow who could eat natsu's flame while the opposite wasn't possible and Shelia who could heal herself while Wendy couldn't. Perhaps the name god slayer was used because that magic even surpassed Dragon slayers (without DF).

I agree with you that God Slaying Magic, just seems like a upgraded version of Dragon Slaying Magic. So far God Slaying Magic is the most mysterious one, because we got introduced to dragons, demons were a thing since Galuna Island (tho they weren't evil, but there was Deliora who was a 'artificial' demon...), the only thing close the God, is the god that cursed Zeref. The War God, that Natsu defeated, was called Yakuma War God, and that's a magic that summons a big creature. We don't know how this magic works, IF the War Gods are ranked from weakest to strongest, and so on. Every magic comes from the One Magic, and we've seen similar types of magic through out the series, like the 3 slaying magic Dragon, God, Demon; Lucy & Erza, both using space magic etc... Basically from One Magic all the others magic were created, but there could've been a 'order' on how they came to be, like Dragon Slaying was the first... etc... Mashima can explain more stuff about 'Lost Magic' since it's a bit blurry, except for Dragon Slayer Magic, where you learn more stuff about it as the story progresses.

 

[Kuroro]

I agree with you that God Slaying Magic, just seems like a upgraded version of Dragon Slaying Magic. So far God Slaying Magic is the most mysterious one, because we got introduced to dragons, demons were a thing since Galuna Island (tho they weren't evil, but there was Deliora who was a 'artificial' demon...), the only thing close the God, is the god that cursed Zeref. The War God, that Natsu defeated, was called Yakuma War God, and that's a magic that summons a big creature. We don't know how this magic works, IF the War Gods are ranked from weakest to strongest, and so on. Every magic comes from the One Magic, and we've seen similar types of magic through out the series, like the 3 slaying magic Dragon, God, Demon; Lucy & Erza, both using space magic etc... Basically from One Magic all the others magic were created, but there could've been a 'order' on how they came to be, like Dragon Slaying was the first... etc... Mashima can explain more stuff about 'Lost Magic' since it's a bit blurry, except for Dragon Slayer Magic, where you learn more stuff about it as the story progresses.

Well it appears that some magics are stronger than others, I would assume the closer a magic is to the "source of all magic" the stronger it is.

See how every lost magic user is strong despite not having that much magic power ?

 

[kkck]

You didn't get my point did you ? In my opinion the author hinted that God Slaye magic is just a copy of Dragon Slayer magic. I'm not making up facts, just look at Zancrow who could eat natsu's flame while the opposite wasn't possible and Shelia who could heal herself while Wendy couldn't. Perhaps the name god slayer was used because that magic even surpassed Dragon slayers (without DF).

I am not saying you made up facts or anything, just that your theory does not seem consistent with what we have seen.

Natsu did manage to eat zancrow's flame in the end though. Through special means but he still could.

As far as wendy vs shelia, it wasn't just healing herself. Wendy couldn't heal herself but she could replenish her own stamina. Shelia could heal herself but could not replenish her stamina. And neither could eat the element of the other, a crucial difference between their fight and natsu's with zancrow.

No weird relationship was seen between laxus and jura either. For the most part we pretty much know that neither could eat the element of the other considering they both seem to have taken some damage from their short confrontation (at least considering both of them seemed bruised).

With this in mind, it does not seem like god slaying magic has any inherently superior traits to dragon slaying magic. We simply haven't seen any. If the zancrow vs natsu fight was representative in that regard then jura would have eaten laxus' lightning and shelia would have eaten wendy's air. In turn what we saw was that all parties could hurt the other and not eat their elements. In that regard it seems like god and dragon slaying magic stand on equal footing for the most part and victory relies on skill (unless you factor in dragon force assuming there isn't such a thing as god force).

 

[AAM1232]

I am not saying you made up facts or anything, just that your theory does not seem consistent with what we have seen.

Natsu did manage to eat zancrow's flame in the end though. Through special means but he still could.

As far as wendy vs shelia, it wasn't just healing herself. Wendy couldn't heal herself but she could replenish her own stamina. Shelia could heal herself but could not replenish her stamina. And neither could eat the element of the other, a crucial difference between their fight and natsu's with zancrow.

No weird relationship was seen between laxus and jura either. For the most part we pretty much know that neither could eat the element of the other considering they both seem to have taken some damage from their short confrontation (at least considering both of them seemed bruised).

With this in mind, it does not seem like god slaying magic has any inherently superior traits to dragon slaying magic. We simply haven't seen any. If the zancrow vs natsu fight was representative in that regard then jura would have eaten laxus' lightning and shelia would have eaten wendy's air. In turn what we saw was that all parties could hurt the other and not eat their elements. In that regard it seems like god and dragon slaying magic stand on equal footing for the most part and victory relies on skill (unless you factor in dragon force assuming there isn't such a thing as god force).

Do remember that we didn't see Wendy and Shelia eat each other's magic, only the air around them. As for Laxus vs Orga (that's his name, Jura is one of the ten Wizard Saints whom Laxus fought later after Jura one-shot Orga) we can't use that since we didn't see the whole fight. As for Natsu vs Zancrow, also remember that Natsu is some form of E.N.D. and made of Etherious by Zeref so that may(note MAYYY!!!!) have allowed him to eat Zancrow's flames. In regards to this thread I don't consider Natsu to be a God Slayer since we haven't seen him fight any actual 'Gods' yet.

 

[Dranzer]

In my opinion Natsu could and can be all kinds of things, but he isn't going to be a God Slayer. He has already beat a God Slayer before and we have been shown that they aren't much on the power scale. I think that to defeat Acnologia and Zeref, Natsu is going to have to go END not a "Devil-God Slayer"...

 

[DemonKing888]

My theory on Natsu is that because he was revived by Zeref having infused his corpse with pure Ethernano, he's able to achieve higher levels of power then a normal human.

Ether or Aether is a Greek God that is the personification of the upper air. He embodies the pure upper air that the gods breathe, as opposed to the normal air breathed by mortals.

So Natsu could have possibly been able to kill that god because of his origins, this could also explain why Zeref believes Natsu could kill him, Natsu is able to harm Ankhseram.

If we look at why the dragonslayers could not hurt any dragons it could be because Dragons live on a higher plane of existence then humans. Which also Explains why Zeref didn't ask a Godslayer to kill him.

The reasons for this could be because Natsu has the potential to become a god, group that with the fact that Natsu is mastering Dragonslaying magic could be why Zeref is confident that Natsu could kill Acnologia as well.

So no Natsu shouldn't have to learn god slaying magic, he just has to reach their plane of existence. Something only Zeref, Mavis, and Acnologia were able to do.

I feel we should look into the mythology of Aether for the simple fact that Hiro Mashima has used the name Hades as well as named a guild Tartaros which is a play on the words Tartarus the Greek from of hell/underworld.

 

[Dranzer]

So as this point in the story Natsu has many forms of different magic, we have his base magic (regular dragon slaying magic), we have the Lightning-Flame Dragon and all that comes with it and Dragon Force. But ever since the end of the Avatar arc, Mashima introduced what in my opinion may be a new sort of magic for Natsu, possibly something like 'Dragon King Slaying Magic'. I'm not saying that's what it's called, I'm just speculating. I was just wondering on with this addition to his arsenal how would his magic rank. I was think along the lines of:
1. Dragon Force/'Dragon King Slaying Magic'
2. Lightning-Flame Dragon
3. Base

 

[SirSamuel016]

At this point, I'd say that Dragon King Slaying Magic is just another extension on the moves he uses, like Dragon Slayers secret arts, and that like the secret arts, they're more powerful than standard attacks.
But yeah, form wise Dragon Force is his strongest by far, Lightning-Flame Dragon and Base form the weakest of his forms.
If you want to throw in debate over an Etherious form for him (with the Etherious Natsu Dragneel business), I'd say theoretically it'd slot in between Dragon Force and Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode.

 

[Dranzer]

At this point, I'd say that Dragon King Slaying Magic is just another extension on the moves he uses, like Dragon Slayers secret arts, and that like the secret arts, they're more powerful than standard attacks.
But yeah, form wise Dragon Force is his strongest by far, Lightning-Flame Dragon and Base form the weakest of his forms.
If you want to throw in debate over an Etherious form for him (with the Etherious Natsu Dragneel business), I'd say theoretically it'd slot in between Dragon Force and Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode.

That definitely is true, Dragon King Slaying Magic very well could be similar to Dragon Slayer's secret arts. But I think in theory Natsu's Etherious form should surpass Dragon Force. This may be speculation, but the fact that Acnologia came during the fight in the Tartarus arc to defeat END, shows that he sees END as a threat to him. And from memory, the only other time he has thought of someone as a threat, was his meetings with Zeref. I also don't think that Acnologia has ever feared a Dragon Sayer even with Dragon Force.

 

[SirSamuel016]

That definitely is true, Dragon King Slaying Magic very well could be similar to Dragon Slayer's secret arts. But I think in theory Natsu's Etherious form should surpass Dragon Force. This may be speculation, but the fact that Acnologia came during the fight in the Tartarus arc to defeat END, shows that he sees END as a threat to him. And from memory, the only other time he has thought of someone as a threat, was his meetings with Zeref. I also don't think that Acnologia has ever feared a Dragon Sayer even with Dragon Force.

We should keep in mind that END might not of had Dragon Slaying magic back then, and therefore not had Dragon Force. Natsu as he is now isn't as strong as what END was (speculation on my part), but he would've had to have been a formidable opponent for Acnologia to try and destroy the book. Now I don't think END poses that much of a threat to Acnologia in his Dragon Form, nothing except a Dragon Slayer or a Dragon would. But Acnologia mightn't of had his Dragon Form back then, and therefore his human form may have struggled to take on an Etherious like that without any magic that was effective against a 'demon', like how FT struggled against the Tartaros demons. If Acno didn't have his Dragon form back then, its understandable if he had some fear for a being that was stronger than him. He may not of even seen the full feats of END back then.

I still see Dragon Force on par, or slightly above, the Etherious powers of END because its been stated to be the strongest power on the planet in terms of what can be wielded. If END's Etherious powers were greater than the power of a Dragon, Igneel would've been killed by END.

 

[Dranzer]

I still see Dragon Force on par, or slightly above, the Etherious powers of END because its been stated to be the strongest power on the planet in terms of what can be wielded. If END's Etherious powers were greater than the power of a Dragon, Igneel would've been killed by END.

That's true so it would be viable to say that Dragon Force is on par with the Etherious powers of END. We can't really say that Dragon Force is superior because otherwise Igneel would have defeated him by now and we can't say END's etherious powers are superior because otherwise he would have eliminated END by now.

 

[DemonKing888]

There is an ancient painting of Natsu fighting Acnologia in his dragon mode.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...arvings.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120803014550

You can tell that's it's Natsu because of his trademark scarf plus the fact that he's +400 years old. So Natsu not only fought Acnologia in ancient times but he didn't die either. Now because he has his scarf this means he pretty much knew DS magic before becoming a child again. So it's unknown if END could go head to head with Dragon Acnologia. but This does shows that Acnologia has been a dragon for over +400 years as well. So the possibility that he fought END is possible.

As for his strongest magic, So fair it looks like Dragon King Slaying Magic, I say this because Dragon Force isn't a magic skill but a transformation that amplifies your dragon slaying magic. Using Dragon King Slaying in Dragon Force may allow Natsu to kill a "Normal" dragon I say normal because Acnologia and Igneel are the highest level of dragon ever seen in this manga.

Now where does this put Natsu's right arm or END. We've seen that human magic doesn't do jackshit to a Normal dragon, but we haven't seen how curse effect dragons being that Demons and Dragons are above humans on the food-chain.

Could it be possible that Natsu's arm is a curse spell. It could be something that may top Dragon King magic, but the repercussions of carelessly using this skill may harm Natsu.

 

[Brandish μ]

I expect LFD mode to be gone. It was silly that Mashima kept it. Anyway Flame Dragon King spells I think are better than LFD.

Dragon force to me is Natsu using the same magic, just now his power is dragon like. So DF Natsu using FDK spells is his best. My head will hurt if I try to throw in his END power too.

 

[Kay3795]

Physical forms:
DragonForce mode > Base form

Magic forms:
Igneel's flames > Normal Flames + Laxus's Lightning > Normal Flames

 

[Holt]

Well I don't think it's entirely accurate to say Natsu's magic. He only has one, that is dragon slaying. Everything else is pretty much an extension of that, he just has different modes. The question would be, what is his strongest mode. The ranking seems pretty straightforward imo. The strongest mode is obviously Dragon force. Next is lightning-flame mode because there is an additional element. Last comes his Base mode when he uses normal flames.

 

[Dranzer]

Well I don't think it's entirely accurate to say Natsu's magic. He only has one, that is dragon slaying. Everything else is pretty much an extension of that, he just has different modes. The question would be, what is his strongest mode. The ranking seems pretty straightforward imo. The strongest mode is obviously Dragon force. Next is lightning-flame mode because there is an additional element. Last comes his Base mode when he uses normal flames.

Do you have an opinion on where Natsu's END power may be ranked?

 

[Axiomus]

Natsu's strongest magic is dragon force.