Discussion Official Dragon Slayers Thread

[Holt]

I'd like to believe that 2nd gen DS are capable of Dragon force simply because it wouldn't really be fair if they're not. Their DS Magic isn't any less authentic than that of the 1st or 3rd Gen. I'm willing to believe that Laxus can use dragon force at will right now. We've seen Wendy able to do so and Laxus did a lot of training.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

In response to the earlier posts above, I do not think Wendy should aquire a poison dragon-slaying magic. Cobra already has a poison type dragon-slaying magic, so it would be pointless to have another one. However, for Wendy to aquire another element is different. I'm not so sure about it since she has sky dragon-slaying magic to begin with and has healing capabilities but if she were to have one, I'd give her a minor dragon-slaying magic. Like space dragon-slaying magic or something. Note that I am not talking about Brandish's type of magic. I mean more like changing gravity, weather, terrain, or something. The closest character that I can think of with this type of magic is Uosuke from The Garou Knights.

Giving the 2nd generation dragon slayers the ability to activate Dragon Force at will is also kind of complicated. I probably wouldn't mind that happening but then it would be pointless because then the difference between the 2nd generation and 1st/3rd generation dragon slayers would be almost non-existent besides the fact that they were raised by dragons, had lacrimas, implanted in them, or both.

 

[RaizenSlayer]

All those sound like great ideas for Wendy, I was just trying to think of the current dragon slaying magic available considering how dual dragon slaying magic has been acquired in the series. Natsu got his lightning magic from Laxus, Gajeel from Rogue, Future Rogue from sting, etc, so I wouldn't be surprised if Wendy was able to take in an already acquired dragon slaying ability just in terms of following the trend as the others have already.
1. Sky +Light
2.Sky+ Poison
3. Sky+ Fire (If anyone is a Naruto fan, this combo would be sick)
4. Sky+Iron (um...)
5.Sky+....*Still hoping to see more dragon slayers before Fairy Tail end, an ice dragon slayer would be epic.

I suppose it is the natural fan boy in me of Cobra and Laxus that wants me to see the 2nd generation succeed, but I am fine either way seeing that Laxus is already powerful to begin with (Makarov blood line, Lightning proficiency etc), and Cobra not someone to be taken lightly as well.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

All those sound like great ideas for Wendy, I was just trying to think of the current dragon slaying magic available considering how dual dragon slaying magic has been acquired in the series. Natsu got his lightning magic from Laxus, Gajeel from Rogue, Future Rogue from sting, etc, so I wouldn't be surprised if Wendy was able to take in an already acquired dragon slaying ability just in terms of following the trend as the others have already.
1. Sky +Light
2.Sky+ Poison
3. Sky+ Fire (If anyone is a Naruto fan, this combo would be sick)
4. Sky+Iron (um...)
5.Sky+....*Still hoping to see more dragon slayers before Fairy Tail end, an ice dragon slayer would be epic.

I suppose it is the natural fan boy in me of Cobra and Laxus that wants me to see the 2nd generation succeed, but I am fine either way seeing that Laxus is already powerful to begin with (Makarov blood line, Lightning proficiency etc), and Cobra not someone to be taken lightly as well.

Those combinations are very interesting. I mean I guess Wendy can have poison dragon-slaying magic just like how Natsu has lightning and Gajeel has shadow, but I wanted new elements and not the same repetitive elements being used because I figured Rogue already has shadow/dark dragon-slaying magic while Sting already has white/light dragon-slaying magic. Plus, poison dragon-slaying magic would be odd on Wendy because she is a healer which technically is opposite of poison.

Its funny because I was also thinking of Sky + Light dragon-slaying magic as well. When I thought of "light", I was referring to more like the "Light from the Sun". Also, the element of light also fits Wendy's image/character. Since fire is similar to lightning/electricty and iron is basically dark/shadow, it makes sense that the sky would go well with light which is from the sun. Now that I think about it though, Natsu essentially has Laxus' magic while Gajeel has Rogue's magic so it would be likely that Wendy will have something similar to Sting's magic which is light dragon-slaying magic.

 

[Vasgoko]

Actually now that this has been brought up, I'm going to actually complain a bit.

First off, I thought it was so stupid for dragon slayers to ear other elements. It was originally supposed to be allowed for dragon slayers to eat their own elements, but somewhere along the way, dragon slayers started eating other elements. So why the hell cant they eat every element in sight?

At the beginning, we saw Natsu eating Laxus Lightning, now, I had my doubts at first but came to accept it because I can see how fire is related to lightning. Ok, I get this.

Then I saw Gajeel eat Rogue's shadow. That pissed me off. One was tangible and the other wasn't. You are basically eating a polar opposite element. I still don't like it to this day, but I was like, " Alright calm down, we know it's for the plot"

Then we saw Laxus sucking in anti-magic particles. Alright, that's it. What's next? Sting eating Acnologia's roar?

I mean at some point, the dragon slayers aren't that special

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Actually now that this has been brought up, I'm going to actually complain a bit.

First off, I thought it was so stupid for dragon slayers to ear other elements. It was originally supposed to be allowed for dragon slayers to eat their own elements, but somewhere along the way, dragon slayers started eating other elements. So why the hell cant they eat every element in sight?

At the beginning, we saw Natsu eating Laxus Lightning, now, I had my doubts at first but came to accept it because I can see how fire is related to lightning. Ok, I get this.

Then I saw Gajeel eat Rogue's shadow. That pissed me off. One was tangible and the other wasn't. You are basically eating a polar opposite element. I still don't like it to this day, but I was like, " Alright calm down, we know it's for the plot"

Then we saw Laxus sucking in anti-magic particles. Alright, that's it. What's next? Sting eating Acnologia's roar?

I mean at some point, the dragon slayers aren't that special

You have a good point. I was also reluctant to give dragon slayers dual-elements to begin with. It is kind of OP to absorb other elements instead of sticking to your own element because then what is the point of being called "Element Dragon Slayer" in the first place? However, because Hiro Mashima wanted it this way and it already happened, I guess I couldn't care less whether dragon slayers have dual elements or not. The only problem I have is when they become over-powered and end up easily defeating their enemies.

 

[Axiomus]

So far, they can only eat another dragon slayer's element. They are limited to what they have from each other.
Also Laxus didn't eat Tempesta's particles to get a power-up. A dragon slayer's lungs are just able to suck in more air, and so thats what he did to suck all the poison up.

 

[Holt]

In response to the earlier posts above, I do not think Wendy should aquire a poison dragon-slaying magic. Cobra already has a poison type dragon-slaying magic, so it would be pointless to have another one. However, for Wendy to aquire another element is different. I'm not so sure about it since she has sky dragon-slaying magic to begin with and has healing capabilities but if she were to have one, I'd give her a minor dragon-slaying magic. Like space dragon-slaying magic or something. Note that I am not talking about Brandish's type of magic. I mean more like changing gravity, weather, terrain, or something. The closest character that I can think of with this type of magic is Uosuke from The Garou Knights.

Giving the 2nd generation dragon slayers the ability to activate Dragon Force at will is also kind of complicated. I probably wouldn't mind that happening but then it would be pointless because then the difference between the 2nd generation and 1st/3rd generation dragon slayers would be almost non-existent besides the fact that they were raised by dragons, had lacrimas, implanted in them, or both.

Well to be fair, the other DS also are existing elements so I don't think it matters if there's already a poison dragon slayer. Wendy would be a hybrid; wind-poison. The other thing is we hardly have any other DS to reference now. The only other available element is light but future rogue already had that. Of course, there's nothing that says an element can't be acquired by more than 1 asides the original owner but I don't think it'd happen. Perhaps there might be one or two in Alvarez army that might open more options for Wendy.

On dragon force, in truth, there isn't much of a different between the 3 gens. At a glance, you wouldn't be able to tell who is a 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen because they're all using dragon slaying magic. In that regard, I don't think it'd be weird if the 2nd gen are capable of dragon force. In fact, if they aren't, it'd make them the only exception. Being able to activate shouldn't make much of a difference imo. Rather, the change I'd expect is in the appearance of their dragon force. The 1st Gen seem to show legitimate physical dragon features in dragon force while the 3rd gen on the other hand don't. Their's is a pattern of scales etc and not like their physical anatomy is changed. Imo, it'd be fine if the 2nd Gen have DF that is different in some way when compared to the others or the 1st gen at least.

Actually now that this has been brought up, I'm going to actually complain a bit.

First off, I thought it was so stupid for dragon slayers to ear other elements. It was originally supposed to be allowed for dragon slayers to eat their own elements, but somewhere along the way, dragon slayers started eating other elements. So why the hell cant they eat every element in sight?

At the beginning, we saw Natsu eating Laxus Lightning, now, I had my doubts at first but came to accept it because I can see how fire is related to lightning. Ok, I get this.

Then I saw Gajeel eat Rogue's shadow. That pissed me off. One was tangible and the other wasn't. You are basically eating a polar opposite element. I still don't like it to this day, but I was like, " Alright calm down, we know it's for the plot"

Then we saw Laxus sucking in anti-magic particles. Alright, that's it. What's next? Sting eating Acnologia's roar?

I mean at some point, the dragon slayers aren't that special

Hm, well, the dragon slayers eating elements besides theirs is probably something that could have been without. Sure it brings an interesting dynamic but it's also a bit complicated. Anyway, the problem isn't really that they can't eat every elements, it's that it would be very harmful. They might be more compatible with some but eating elements besides their own is very exhausting and dangerous. That's probably why only the strongest ones have done that so far. Anyway, I think the biggest pointer is that they likely can't simply start eating the other element every time even though they've done so before and there's also the effect. When DS eat their natural element, it rejuvenates and strengthens them, thus enhancing their ability. When they eat other elements, if they can handle it, they get a power boost for a short while (naturally since they're fighting with two powers) and then succumb to exhaustion and pain shortly after. This would probably be the same every time they eat another element besides that even though they've eaten it before.

We also have to consider that dragon slayers (and slayer types generally) were just normal humans prior. So imo, if they, via magic, gained the ability to consume elements even though they were just humans before, then it's not far fetched to think they can take other elements even though there are repercussions.

 

[RaizenSlayer]

I do see where you are coming from and unfortunately like Naruto went, this Shounen as it progresses loses part of what makes it unique, and becomes more DBZ OP status.

Adding on to what Holt said above. the definitive line between generations has blurred so much with plot progression, powerups, and individual feats, that I just don't see any point in saying who is a 1st generation, 2nd generation, or 3rd generation. If the 2nd generation does show DF is capable(which I believe it shoudl be), then there is no point in distinguishing the three.

I myself do wonder how the 2nd generation would appear. Laxus and Cobra both grew scales (Cobra in particular gained dragon claws) when they activated their dragon slaying magic ( although I haven't seen Laxus take on this appearance again), so I am curious to see how DF would look like.

I've already accepted this was the route Mashima was going with once I saw Natsu acquire a dual dragon slaying ability. Because Gajeel at least up when Gray acquired his Devil Slaying magic, was being pushed as Natsu's rival, when I saw him take Rogue's shadow, I couldn't help but shake my head. I just couldn't see the whole iron shadow combination, and I felt it was just given for the sake of bring Gajeel's power closer to Natsu's.

I could buy it when they emphasized the toll the dual wielding slaying art takes on the user but even that now we saw Natsu and Gajeel use it freely in the Tartaros Arc with multiple successful periods.

Despite my initial feelings on the whole dual dragon set, I have come to accept it and honestly they have both grown on me so I am more open to the idea (perhaps because it is going to happen anyways). I know for sure, I will be marking out if they give Wendy a dual style.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I'm still not sold on the second generation having Dragon Force. In one translation of the Dragon Force Natsu vs Mard Geer, mard said that it was the power inherited directly from Igneel, which leads me to believe only the 1st and 3rd gen slayers that were taught by dragons can use it.

 

[Vasgoko]

So far, they can only eat another dragon slayer's element. They are limited to what they have from each other.
Also Laxus didn't eat Tempesta's particles to get a power-up. A dragon slayer's lungs are just able to suck in more air, and so thats what he did to suck all the poison up.

Yeah, I know that power can only be gained from other dragons slayers, but how many dragon slayers do we know of?

Seven right? Do you know how OP that would be if all 7 exchanged elements?

You wouldn't have a lightning-flame Natsu anymore. You would have a Lightning-Flame-Iron-Sky-Light-Shadow-Poison Natsu? See what I mean?


Also, I never said Laxus got a power up from eating anti-magic particles. I said that Laxus ate an element that isn't his.

The dragon slayer lungs is BS, that's exactly my point from the very beginning. Why can't they suck up everything then? Natsu and Gajeel should have been able to suck up Sting's and Rogue's magic during their battle at GMG. At the same time, Sting and Rogue should be able to suck up fire and iron roads.

I know you guys are in favor of eating different elements, but it's so obvious that in theory they shouldn't be able to. Logically.

 

[Holt]

I'm still not sold on the second generation having Dragon Force. In one translation of the Dragon Force Natsu vs Mard Geer, mard said that it was the power inherited directly from Igneel, which leads me to believe only the 1st and 3rd gen slayers that were taught by dragons can use it.

Well, dragon slaying magic is from dragons but then we have the 2nd gen who are capable of using dragon skating magic via lacrima. Imo, as long as the 2nd gen DS magic isn't different or any less authentic than the 1st Gen, dragon force should be a solid possibility. Of course, it's still speculation, but I think they should be capable of using it.

 

[RaizenSlayer]

Yeah, I know that power can only be gained from other dragons slayers, but how many dragon slayers do we know of?

Seven right? Do you know how OP that would be if all 7 exchanged elements?

You wouldn't have a lightning-flame Natsu anymore. You would have a Lightning-Flame-Iron-Sky-Light-Shadow-Poison Natsu? See what I mean?


Also, I never said Laxus got a power up from eating anti-magic particles. I said that Laxus ate an element that isn't his.

The dragon slayer lungs is BS, that's exactly my point from the very beginning. Why can't they suck up everything then? Natsu and Gajeel should have been able to suck up Sting's and Rogue's magic during their battle at GMG. At the same time, Sting and Rogue should be able to suck up fire and iron roads.

I know you guys are in favor of eating different elements, but it's so obvious that in theory they shouldn't be able to. Logically.

Not saying that I agree with Mashima's thought process but it is also about plot progression. When it comes to plot progression logic will fall second to convenience. It makes me think about the concept of Fairy law, how many times could Makarov or Laxus use fairy law to get out of a tight bind? Again Fairy Law was convenient at the time when Makarov used it against Joze, and when Laxus used it to show the readers he did care about his comrades, but after it lost it's meaning to the storyline at the time, it has been reduced to a plot device.

I am not Mashima nor do I know what he does, but Natsu gained the lightning dual ability to get a powerup to combat Hades. Gajeel was given the power-up because he was being pushed as Natsu's rival ( prior to Gray getting his devil slaying magic), and if his rival has Fire-Lightning then Gajeel needed to get a dual element.

I am in favor of seeing new elements not because I don't see as logical but it is what I have to come to expect and enjoy from the series.
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As of the manga up to date I still believe DF can be attainable. Bear with me, I may get made fun of for this but this my thought process.

I like to think the 1st and 2nd generation DS are two halves of a complete key with the 3rd being the complete key to unlocking Dragon Force.

The 1st generation was taught Dragon slaying magic by the Dragons, all 3 were given the essence of the magic, thus the capability to unlock dragon force as the final stage. Compared to the 3rd generation, they had to work much harder at unlocking it at will as only before the end of Natsu/Gajeel we have only ever seen it after consuming a large amount of external magical power.

The 2nd generation wasn't taught by dragons but was rather GIVEN the magic by the lacrima, thus are able to perform dragon slaying magic just like the first generation. They can consume their element for energy and are resistant to other mages using the element of their slaying technique against them. (Laxus taking Rufus's lightning attack or Cobra eating venom).They should theoretically have the same potential to unlock DF as the 1st generation.

The 3rd generation has both teachings from the dragons and a dragon lacrima, which allowed them to control DF at will much easier than the 1st generation without any special conditions, which we can credit to the synergistic effect of natural Dragon teaching and the lacrima aka a combination of the two.

So what I am getting as is regardless, the first generation lacked the lacrima yet somehow was able to achieve DF.
The 2nd generation lacks the teaching of the dragon but does have the magic, so it should be possible to achieve DF.

I suppose if we never see Laxus or Cobra achieve DF then we are too assume then that being taught by dragons is the key difference in being able to achieve the final stage. However I have yet to see any proof that being taught at a young age by Dragons distinguishes you from being imparted with lacrima magic. Cobra and Laxus both took on dragon like traits when tapping into their magic ( Laxus has his Dragon lungs whether it is a popular opinion or not), they suffer from the same motion sickness as the first and third generation, have been imparted with the same senses.

I suppose the only thing I have seen that was different was obv. the fact that Natsu, Gajeel, Wendy, Sting, and Rogue had dragons inside of them to prevent dragonification but of course it goes back to what defines a 1st generation vs 2nd vs 3rd. (and if the consequence of dragonification is tied in with the ability to achieve DF then I concede)

I am not dismissing Mard Geer's comments but I will still remain skeptical about the 2nd gen's capabilities.

I don't wish to ramble, all I am saying is I fail to see what is stopping a 2nd generation from achieving DF.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Not saying that I agree with Mashima's thought process but it is also about plot progression. When it comes to plot progression logic will fall second to convenience. It makes me think about the concept of Fairy law, how many times could Makarov or Laxus use fairy law to get out of a tight bind? Again Fairy Law was convenient at the time when Makarov used it against Joze, and when Laxus used it to show the readers he did care about his comrades, but after it lost it's meaning to the storyline at the time, it has been reduced to a plot device.

I am not Mashima nor do I know what he does, but Natsu gained the lightning dual ability to get a powerup to combat Hades. Gajeel was given the power-up because he was being pushed as Natsu's rival ( prior to Gray getting his devil slaying magic), and if his rival has Fire-Lightning then Gajeel needed to get a dual element.

I am in favor of seeing new elements not because I don't see as logical but it is what I have to come to expect and enjoy from the series.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As of the manga up to date I still believe DF can be attainable. Bear with me, I may get made fun of for this but this my thought process.

I like to think the 1st and 2nd generation DS are two halves of a complete key with the 3rd being the complete key to unlocking Dragon Force.

The 1st generation was taught Dragon slaying magic by the Dragons, all 3 were given the essence of the magic, thus the capability to unlock dragon force as the final stage. Compared to the 3rd generation, they had to work much harder at unlocking it at will as only before the end of Natsu/Gajeel we have only ever seen it after consuming a large amount of external magical power.

The 2nd generation wasn't taught by dragons but was rather GIVEN the magic by the lacrima, they should theoretically have the same potential to unlock DF as the 1st generation.

The 3rd generation has both teachings from the dragons and a dragon lacrima, which allowed them to control DF at will much easier than the 1st generation without any special conditions, which we can credit to the synergistic effect of natural Dragon teaching and the lacrima aka a combination of the two.

So what I am getting as is regardless, the first generation lacked the lacrima yet somehow was able to achieve DF.
The 2nd generation lacks the teaching of the dragon but does have the magic, so it should be possible to achieve DF.

I suppose if we never see Laxus or Cobra achieve DF then we are too assume then that being taught by dragons is the key difference in being able to achieve the final stage. However I have yet to see any proof that being taught at a young age by Dragons distinguishes you from being imparted with lacrima magic. Cobra and Laxus both took on dragon like traits when tapping into their magic ( Laxus has his Dragon lungs whether it is a popular opinion or not), they suffer from the same motion sickness as the first and third generation, have been imparted with the same senses. The only thing I have seen that was different was obv. the fact that Natsu, Gajeel, Wendy, Sting, and Rogue had dragons inside of them but of course it goes back to what defines a 1st generation vs 2nd vs 3rd.

I am not dismissing Mard Geer's comments but I will still remain skeptical about the 2nd gen's capabilities.

I don't wish to ramble, all I am saying is I fail to see what is stopping a 2nd generation from achieving DF.

I like to think of the way a Dragon Slayer wills Dragon Force to activate is like Enthalpy and Exo/Endothermic reactions in Chemistry (bear with me).

In Chemistry, energy is required for a reaction to occur, and a big amount of that, too. The energy required for the reaction to take place is known as the activation energy, and without that being met the reaction won't take place. However, the activation energy required can be lowered by using a catalyst (a catalyst basically lowers the activation energy required for a reaction to take place).

Now if we jump to the Dragon Slayers, activating Dragon Force is just like this reaction (at first). The 1st Gen Dragon Slayers' Dragon Force has required a huge amount of magic power (energy) for Dragon Force to activate. Natsu ate Etherion, and Wendy ate air with a lot of ethernano in it. That was them obtaining the activation energy required for their Dragon Force. The 3rd Gen Dragon Slayers have a lower activation energy than the 1st Gen Slayers, and this is evident by them showing they can will it with ease in the GMG. Its easier for them because of their Lacrima, which acts as a catalyst for Dragon Force to activate.

I see Dragon Force as a technique which takes time to master and a lot of power to use. While I think only those taught by Dragons can use it, its still possible that the lacrima may allow the 2nd gen slayers to use it, but I think it might be a bit unlikely.

 

[RaizenSlayer]

I am quite familiar with thermodynamics, and I do enjoy seeing it applied in this form. It is a great way of explaining Dragon Force. I do agree with your thought process, the catalyst in the case of of the third generation in the form of the lacrima while the teachings of the dragon providing the reagent of the proposed reaction. Would it be wrong of me to say then, if the lacrima serves as the catalyst for the 3rd generation to reduce to energy of activation to drive the reaction forward (don't wish to go deep and off subject), then the same lacrima is now the reagent for the 2nd generation, and they are just lacking a catalyst of their own?

I agree with everything you have said, but I won't rule out at least the possibility.

 

[Vasgoko]

Not saying that I agree with Mashima's thought process but it is also about plot progression. When it comes to plot progression logic will fall second to convenience. It makes me think about the concept of Fairy law, how many times could Makarov or Laxus use fairy law to get out of a tight bind? Again Fairy Law was convenient at the time when Makarov used it against Joze, and when Laxus used it to show the readers he did care about his comrades, but after it lost it's meaning to the storyline at the time, it has been reduced to a plot device.

I am not Mashima nor do I know what he does, but Natsu gained the lightning dual ability to get a powerup to combat Hades. Gajeel was given the power-up because he was being pushed as Natsu's rival ( prior to Gray getting his devil slaying magic), and if his rival has Fire-Lightning then Gajeel needed to get a dual element.

I am in favor of seeing new elements not because I don't see as logical but it is what I have to come to expect and enjoy from the series.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As of the manga up to date I still believe DF can be attainable. Bear with me, I may get made fun of for this but this my thought process.

I like to think the 1st and 2nd generation DS are two halves of a complete key with the 3rd being the complete key to unlocking Dragon Force.

The 1st generation was taught Dragon slaying magic by the Dragons, all 3 were given the essence of the magic, thus the capability to unlock dragon force as the final stage. Compared to the 3rd generation, they had to work much harder at unlocking it at will as only before the end of Natsu/Gajeel we have only ever seen it after consuming a large amount of external magical power.

The 2nd generation wasn't taught by dragons but was rather GIVEN the magic by the lacrima, thus are able to perform dragon slaying magic just like the first generation. They can consume their element for energy and are resistant to other mages using the element of their slaying technique against them. (Laxus taking Rufus's lightning attack or Cobra eating venom).They should theoretically have the same potential to unlock DF as the 1st generation.

The 3rd generation has both teachings from the dragons and a dragon lacrima, which allowed them to control DF at will much easier than the 1st generation without any special conditions, which we can credit to the synergistic effect of natural Dragon teaching and the lacrima aka a combination of the two.

So what I am getting as is regardless, the first generation lacked the lacrima yet somehow was able to achieve DF.
The 2nd generation lacks the teaching of the dragon but does have the magic, so it should be possible to achieve DF.

I suppose if we never see Laxus or Cobra achieve DF then we are too assume then that being taught by dragons is the key difference in being able to achieve the final stage. However I have yet to see any proof that being taught at a young age by Dragons distinguishes you from being imparted with lacrima magic. Cobra and Laxus both took on dragon like traits when tapping into their magic ( Laxus has his Dragon lungs whether it is a popular opinion or not), they suffer from the same motion sickness as the first and third generation, have been imparted with the same senses.

I suppose the only thing I have seen that was different was obv. the fact that Natsu, Gajeel, Wendy, Sting, and Rogue had dragons inside of them to prevent dragonification but of course it goes back to what defines a 1st generation vs 2nd vs 3rd. (and if the consequence of dragonification is tied in with the ability to achieve DF then I concede)

I am not dismissing Mard Geer's comments but I will still remain skeptical about the 2nd gen's capabilities.

I don't wish to ramble, all I am saying is I fail to see what is stopping a 2nd generation from achieving DF.

Actually, in my opinion, logic doesn't fall second to convenience for plot progression. I actually value logic more. One doesn't need a power up to become so strong you can see a difference. It's all about training, skills, technique, and tactics.

Makarov and Laxus' fairy law is actually not a plot device. It's more like a utility. Like Gray's Iced She'll with the exception of suicide. Makarov didn't just use Fairy Law on Jose, Makarov also wanted to use it against Hades on Tenrou but Hades had his own Grimoire Law. As far as Laxus, I don't think his Fairy Law is complete.

Either way, Fairy Law could very well be used in the future. Fairy Law just isn't used a lot because it can be so easily countered. Plus, from the looks of it, it costs a lot of magical energy.

That's the exact problem I have with this. Why does a rival need a power-up to be on the same level. Erza has never gotten a power up, yet all I hear these days are "Erza would whoop Gray's ass in Alvarez arc".

Erza learning new armor types is the same as Gray learning new ice techniques. So Erza actually has gotten 0 power ups. If you want to make it logical, you should have Gajeel absorb Torafusa's black water and become an Iron-Steel dragon slayer. Not an Iron-shadow. You are mixing a tangible type of magic with a non-tangible, that's polar opposites.


As for the Gen dragon slaying magic deal, I don't really have an opinion, but I gotta say 1st gen is superior to 2nd gen logically. The natural form of anything is always better than artificial. It's extremely difficult to replicate something which is why natural skills are earned not given. If that logic is applied to dragon slaying magic, in theory the ranking is:

3rd gen

1st gen

2nd gen

 

[RaizenSlayer]

I am not saying that I agree with convenience over logic I am simply stating an observation I have seen in the manga with handing characters and powerups. I too believe in logic but I also am pragmatic enough to acknowledge when it is not being used as seen in several instances in order to progress the plot.

I respect your opinion but I believe Fairy Law has been reduced to a plot device. While I accept that it requires a lot of energy, there have been life threatening instances where I believe the benefits of surviving and living far outweigh to risk of expending your energy as seen for example when Ajeel had basically trapped the Makarov rescue team and while everyone went to fight, Makarov instead of using Fairy law just thought he would shield his guild mates to protect them from the Sandstorm rather than just use Fairy Law.

http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/125/14
Laxus's technique based on what was said here I believe was perfect but again because Fairy law targets those the castor sees as an enemy, it had no effect on Fairy Tale, the people of magnolia aka people Laxus didn't view as an enemy.

I have said myself I wasn't really the biggest fan for the dual dragon wielding, and as for absorbing Torafusor's water, how would it make sense for a Dragon Slayer to absorb the magic of a Curse? Isn't the combination of magic and curse polar opposites in it's own essence? yes I understand the chemical justification of combining the iron and carbon but again it was all circumstantial. Gajeel's iron merely reacted with the carbon that was in the curse from Torafusa's black water technique, but absorbing Torafusa's curse I am sure wouldn't give him steel slaying dragon magic. Now wouldn't that be illogical for him to have to summon black water compromising his team mates, and also himself (he still has to breath even if he is resistant to the carbon!) everytime he used the technique? He would be gaining a technique that grants him "steel slaying " capabilities for 5 minutes at a time. And in the spectrum of magic while dual dragon magic isnt the most logical,tTwo forces of the same spectrum of dragon slaying magic makes more sense than Iron of the Dragon Slaying Magic and Water from a Curse.

I never said the 1st gen. was inferior to the 2nd generation, and natural skill is an innate ability. You can be taught in a classroom a subject by a professor or you can be given the book yourself to learn, but what it comes down to is your natural skill which is an innate ability. Whether you were taught dragon slaying magic or given dragon slaying magic what determines natural skill is how you can use and master the magic. Laxus wasn't taught by any dragon but yet have we not seen how powerful he has been/ is to the current manga? That is natural skill.

 

[Vasgoko]

I am not saying that I agree with convenience over logic I am simply stating an observation I have seen in the manga with handing characters and powerups. I too believe in logic but I also am pragmatic enough to acknowledge when it is not being used as seen in several instances in order to progress the plot.

I respect your opinion but I believe Fairy Law has been reduced to a plot device. While I accept that it requires a lot of energy, there have been life threatening instances where I believe the benefits of surviving and living far outweigh to risk of expending your energy as seen for example when Ajeel had basically trapped the Makarov rescue team and while everyone went to fight, Makarov instead of using Fairy law just thought he would shield his guild mates to protect them from the Sandstorm rather than just use Fairy Law.

http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/125/14
Laxus's technique based on what was said here I believe was perfect but again because Fairy law targets those the castor sees as an enemy, it had no effect on Fairy Tale, the people of magnolia aka people Laxus didn't view as an enemy.

I have said myself I wasn't really the biggest fan for the dual dragon wielding, and as for absorbing Torafusor's water, how would it make sense for a Dragon Slayer to absorb the magic of a Curse? Isn't the combination of magic and curse polar opposites in it's own essence? yes I understand the chemical justification of combining the iron and water but in the spectrum of magic while dual dragon magic isnt the most logical, Two forces of the same spectrum of dragon slaying magic makes more sense than Iron of the Dragon Slaying Magic and Water from a Curse.

I never said the 1st gen. was inferior to the 2nd generation, and natural skill is an innate ability. You can be taught in a classroom a subject by a professor or you can be given the book yourself to learn, but what it comes down to is your natural skill which is an innate ability. Whether you were taught dragon slaying magic or given dragon slaying magic what determines natural skill is how you can use and master the magic. Laxus wasn't taught by any dragon but yet have we not seen how powerful he has been/ is to the current manga? That is natural skill.

Oh, I'm not saying that Gajeel is eating Torafusa's water. But when carbon from Torafusa's water reacts with Gajeel Iron, the carbon particles can mix with Gajeel's composition and allow Gajeel to become steel.

The shadow just plainly doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying you are wrong on the generation dragon slaying magic. That was just more of my opinion about the topic. I guess I should have broken the text up though so it wouldn't be confused with your post, but yeah, the way I see it, learning from a professor and studying yourself beats just studying yourself, but then again, I don't really have an opinion nor am I interested in the dragon slaying deal.

 

[RaizenSlayer]

Fair enough brother , I too would prefer being guided in the right direction in learning an art, and I suppose my explanation is just to back up my original statement in that I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a second generation achieving Dragon Force.

Perhaps Levy should stick with Gajeel and just draw a formula for a concentrated stable carbon isotope that could allow Gajeel to become Steel should it serve the purpose at the moment haha. I don't wish to go off topic but Levy is the ideal supporting mage for Dragon Slayers.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I am quite familiar with thermodynamics, and I do enjoy seeing it applied in this form. It is a great way of explaining Dragon Force. I do agree with your thought process, the catalyst in the case of of the third generation in the form of the lacrima while the teachings of the dragon providing the reagent of the proposed reaction. Would it be wrong of me to say then, if the lacrima serves as the catalyst for the 3rd generation to reduce to energy of activation to drive the reaction forward (don't wish to go deep and off subject), then the same lacrima is now the reagent for the 2nd generation, and they are just lacking a catalyst of their own?

I agree with everything you have said, but I won't rule out at least the possibility.

We have to remember that the Dragon Lacrima not only grants the magic, but some knowledge of it to whoever has it inside them.
For the 3rd Gen Dragon Slayer, it acts as a catalyst imo, but it has to have a bigger role than that for the 2nd gen which is where I'd struggle to explain it with my knowledge of thermodynamics (currently learning it in college :P).