Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
Why put Mihawk above Admirals when he shown nothing to be on that scale especially Admirals are another threat entirely in power scale. Can't push him as Yonko lvl given evidence as of late. Better to push him downward until we get more evidence on where he stands, but Marineford really push him under Yonkos and Admirals that for sure.
I agree, really hard to split the first 10-15 or so (Yonko/Admiral tier). Same as the rung below 15-35ish (Commander tier), although there are sub-tiers in there I suppose with YC1, YC2, YC3 etc.
Why put Mihawk above Admirals when he shown nothing to be on that scale especially Admirals are another threat entirely in power scale. Can't push him as Yonko lvl given evidence as of late. Better to push him downward until we get more evidence on where he stands, but Marineford really push him under Yonkos and Admirals that for sure.
Let me get this straight.
You've argued for three days that Smoker should be Top 30 "because he has not been seen for two or three arcs and he should have grown much stronger despite there being no proof or hint of it".
Okay, so, you know I disagree with how you interpret Mihawk's feats at Marineford and about how strong he is, but let's assume, for argument's sake, that you're right and Mihawk is YC4 tier.
That was not two or three arcs ago, that was before the timeskip, so, applying the same logic you're using to boost Smoker up your tier 30, shouldn't Mihawk be boosted even higher "because it's been longer since we have last seen him and he should have grown stronger despite there not being any proof or hint of it"?
This is why it's important for discussions such as this to be based around facts or material that can even allude to it. Because simply using that logic, we can say ANY xxx character should be XXX strong by now because we've not seen them in a few arcs.
This is why it's important for discussions such as this to be based around facts or material that can even allude to it. Because simply using that logic, we can say ANY xxx character should be XXX strong by now because we've not seen them in a few arcs.
Agreed. My intent with that last post was to show that the logic was flawed through applying it to a different character other than Smoker.
It's a different matter to theorize about how much room to grow a character has or about how strong he'll perhaps be the next time he appears, but theories such as those can't be used as if they were proven facts.
King = Sanji?
Smoker above Jimbe?
why is iso so high?
Why is jack YC3 above Smoothie YC2?
Why is luffy above admirals?
Why is Kong no6? is it his name?
Mihawk under Luffy? Did you mean Zoro?
Tsuru no9? Wtf?
Not really as someone who is Yonko lvl would not be stop twice by YCs like Jozu and Vista and later Crocodile with never beaten any of them in the fights. If you want to say 'He was holding back', that is fine, but same can be said on them too as they were never push using full power either. Even so legit threats like Yonkos and Admirals have dominated over YCs with ease we see that with Whitebeard, Kaido, Big Mom, Aokiji, Akainu, and Kizaru when facing YC lvl threat and don't even need full power to beat them.
Evidence as of late push him like inbetween at best between them and YCs if we were to see his full power. He didn't even step foot on Wano to be recognized by them as WSS nor face Yonko Shanks, just pre-Yonko Shanks.
I get what you mean on him being quite strong as he still is, but nothing have push notion he has same vibe as Yonko or Admiral though. Oda would have push factor in Marineford if he was as strong as them, but instead it push away notion he is more around YC lvl threat or at least above them all at full power, but not at tiers of Yonkos and Admirals. Until evidence says otherwise, can't visibility see him as major threat to them if they fought.
I know I am a little late in the discussion of Smoker, but I wanna put in my 2 cents. Moe is wrong about Top 30. Also, please ignore him when he talks about Sanji, he's another Nik.
And MUIMadara never said Zolo was going to be the strongest of all, but stronger than Sanji. Which I agree and I think everybody but a certain someone agrees.
Nah, that be you given you can't stop talking about in past posts. Also not really as Sanji and Zoro have back and forth who stronger and his character type doesn't need to be stronger than him given direction he going with these two. Majority doesn't think as much your side and don't use website as whole OP community on what they think. That more baseless than fact given how many members we have on this thread.
Let me get this straight.
You've argued for three days that Smoker should be Top 30 "because he has not been seen for two or three arcs and he should have grown much stronger despite there being no proof or hint of it".
Okay, so, you know I disagree with how you interpret Mihawk's feats at Marineford and about how strong he is, but let's assume, for argument's sake, that you're right and Mihawk is YC4 tier.
That was not two or three arcs ago, that was before the timeskip, so, applying the same logic you're using to boost Smoker up your tier 30, shouldn't Mihawk be boosted even higher "because it's been longer since we have last seen him and he should have grown stronger despite there not being any proof or hint of it"?
Mihawk has reach his Prime and stop training nowadays while Smoker is still growing though. Idk how you can compare them same on reaching their potential when Smoker is still growing for his age and haven't yet.
Mihawk has reach his Prime and stop training nowadays while Smoker is still growing though. Idk how you can compare them same on reaching their potential when Smoker is still growing for his age and haven't yet.
Smoker is 36 in Punk Hazard, Mihawk was 41 in Marineford. They're pretty much from the same generation. We have seen exactly the same amount of pannels of Mihawk and Smoker training to say one's training more than the other...
Either way, the "Top 30 Smoker Challenge" was too damn impossible from the beginning just taking into account higher-ranking marines, 5 yonkous, many YC (Blackbeard alone has 10), Revolutionary army top tiers, etc.
You would think being Law fan you understand given how Law as set aside badly in his past fights lol. Though somehow we suppose to believe he is on that level given losing to Doffy too? Just saying it's a Shounen. Characters can get stronger in future arcs, so not farfetched to say on Smoker being he is one of major characters outside the crew which goes with Law as well. Just saying on how Oda works as it's not farfetched thing to see when he done it before.
Smoker is 36 in Punk Hazard, Mihawk was 41 in Marineford. They're pretty much from the same generation. We have seen exactly the same amount of pannels of Mihawk and Smoker training to say one's training more than the other...
Either way, the "Top 30 Smoker Challenge" was too damn impossible from the beginning just taking into account higher-ranking marines, 5 yonkous, many YC (Blackbeard alone has 10), Revolutionary army top tiers, etc.
Mihawk achieved his dream, while Smoker hasn't his age isn't really his Prime there as different points of a person of when they are in Prime for many characters. Mihawk has stop training as only time we see him not fighting is drinking wine or reading newspaper while Smoker is still continuing his actions as Marine and chasing Pirates while getting stronger through that and training as well. Nothing hints anything Mihawk still trains anymore especially it's heavily implied he stop after being WSS and choosing to not fight Shanks anymore.
I'm not quoting any post here because I want anyone who wants to feel free to answer the question:
Does anyone believe that Smoker can't or hasn't gotten somewhat stronger since we last saw him? Or does anyone believe he won't be stronger EOS?
If no one answers "yes", then let's stop saying that Smoker will become stronger over time as an argument; nobody thinks he won't.
What's being argued here is whether there's any proof of how much exactly he has or hasn't grown since Punk Hazard, and if we're honest, there's no proof of how much he's grown, because he hasn't appeared since.
Mihawk achieved his dream, while Smoker hasn't his age isn't really his Prime there as different points of a person of when they are in Prime for many characters. Mihawk has stop training as only time we see him not fighting is drinking wine or reading newspaper while Smoker is still continuing his actions as Marine and chasing Pirates while getting stronger through that and training as well. Nothing hints anything Mihawk still trains anymore especially it's heavily implied he stop after being WSS and choosing to not fight Shanks anymore.
We have also seen Mihawk chases random fleets of pirates for sport around the whole world just to kill time, he definitely hasn't put down the sword. So anything you say about that is speculation.
King = Sanji?
Smoker above Jimbe?
why is iso so high?
Why is jack YC3 above Smoothie YC2?
Why is luffy above admirals?
Why is Kong no6? is it his name?
Mihawk under Luffy? Did you mean Zoro?
Tsuru no9? Wtf?
Current as gotten stronger since last time and being the 'Garp' to Luffy's 'Roger', so come back as challenging level to him back in pre-timeskip.
Given higher bounty and what we see on performance, Jack is ahead more on her in power, so until more evidence, can't say Smoothie is above just because she is YC2 to Yonko's Crew doesn't mean she can take on any YC2 or more simple depending who they are.
Just New Admirals as Luffy during or after arc more or less surpassed them, but not Old Admirals just yet though.
What you mean by that on Kong?
Get fanboyism out of your head. Luffy is better than Zoro, stop it. Luffy given what we seen and we seen on Mihawk is could be above him or about to go over him once he takes out Yonko on how it is heading.
Why not Tsuru? She made even Doffy not want to face her in a fight and he is YC lvl character and Tsuru is often seen in same realm with Garp and Sengoku given they all started out and train together to their current level. They were probably 'Original Admiral lvl' during their Prime before Aokiji, Akainu, and Kizaru came along.
I'm not quoting any post here because I want anyone who wants to feel free to answer the question:
Does anyone believe that Smoker can't or hasn't gotten somewhat stronger since we last saw him? Or does anyone believe he won't be stronger EOS?
If no one answers "yes", then let's stop saying that Smoker will become stronger over time as an argument; nobody thinks he won't.
What's being argued here is whether there's any proof of how much exactly he has or hasn't grown since Punk Hazard, and if we're honest, there's no proof of how much he's grown, because he hasn't appeared since.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
We have also seen Mihawk chases random fleets of pirates for sport around the whole world just to kill time, he definitely hasn't put down the sword. So anything you say about that is speculation.
More for fun than actual training session though. He stated he doesn't get challenges much, so it wouldn't make sense fodders can get anything out of him and wouldn't train Zoro to beat him one day if he had someone else to give him more of his time instead. Again no confirmation he trains still unlike Smoker who is more heavily implied he does. Can say speculation to a extent, but implied hints around push that.
You would think being Law fan you understand given how Law as set aside badly in his past fights lol. Though somehow we suppose to believe he is on that level given losing to Doffy too? Just saying it's a Shounen. Characters can get stronger in future arcs, so not farfetched to say on Smoker being he is one of major characters outside the crew which goes with Law as well. Just saying on how Oda works as it's not farfetched thing to see when he done it before.
You are right. Its Shounen, main characters and their allies get stronger. However, Smoker isn't any one of them. He had two years to train and didn't show us anything substantial. Law beat smoker without a sweat. The same Law was defeated by Doflamingo. Then you put Smoker above Doflamingo.
Yes I am a fan of Law. But I have never over hype him up like you do with Sanji and Smoker. I don't rate Zoro over Sanji and vice versa.
I think this sort of post is what I usually find frustrating from you, and I'll break it down to explain.
Given how what is going? Please elaborate.
You're contradicting yourself. If he's the Garp of his generation then there's no way he becomes a Fleet Admiral, or even Admiral; because that would put him under the direct influence and command of the Celestial Dragons. Smoker hates the politics of the WG, as seen by his frustration on how they handled the Crocodile situation in Alabasta. All he wants to do is chase down pirates; targeting the SH because they escaped him from Loguetown.
So we're back to your list. So I'm free today so I've taken the time to correct your list and show you exactly what a top 30 is supposed to look like.
Your corrected List:
1. Dragon
2. Kaido
3. Big Mom
4. Shanks
5. Blackbeard
6. Kong
7. Garp
8. Sengoku
9. Tsuru
10. Akainu
11. Aokiji
12. Kizaru
13. Luffy, Kidd, and Law
16. Fujitora and Ryokugyu
18. Mihawk (Debatable Though)
19. Marco and Beckman (YC1)
21. Jozu and Yasopp (YC2)
23. Vista and Lucky Roo (YC3)
25. Shiryu
26. Iso (who is Iso? If you mean Issho, then you already have Fujitora as #16)
27. King and Sanji
29. Queen
30. Burgess and Weevil
=======================
32. Katakuri
33. Jack 34. Smoker
35. Smoothie and Jinbe
37. Cracker
38. Doflamingo
39. Boa Hancock
40. Urouge
So first of all, either Smoker is your current #34 or you adjust your list so you can put him in where you believe he deserves to be in your top 30 characters; because you're either wanting to have a proper discussion or you're taking the piss and just trolling to get a reaction.
Secondly, the placing of the characters themselves is entirely your opinion, (which I naturally disagree with, but that's a discussion for another time I guess), but there's one placing I wanted to address here which is Smoker because you say he's in your top 30 based on what we've seen "currently". Last we saw of Smoker in the current timeline was him getting beaten by Doflamingo (ch698), so by what logic do you then place him 3 places higher?
If you have any material to support this particular placing and what you believe Smoker's current strength is then, by all means do so. Or as I said, concede or adjust your list.
He might have, but there's nothing shown in the manga to confirm that. As such I can claim the same thing about any characters that is omitted from any of these lists; for example "Richie has gotten stronger since we last saw him and it would fit Oda's narrative of how he want to see him". I wouldn't be able to prove neither of those things and neither can you unless you know something about Oda that we don't. So it's a baseless statement to try and justify your opinion.
Agree to Disagree on that Smoker's position then as we can discuss this another time along with my list don't agree on that either. I will make changes when we see Smoker again to judge what he is currently if he does get stronger to be in Top 30 or not.
You know it's more of placements than them actually being like them, right? For example, we know many see Roger in Luffy, but they still have different ways of going about things while similar. Same thing with Smoker and Garp, but we can see them taking positions of the past generation given similar vibe and series in heading on New Generation to make names for themselves nowadays. Also true, but I see at EOS that big changes will happen before or after it with Gorosei and Celestial Dragons no more in controlling WG to their standards especially if Imu-Sama is final villain of the series and will be defeated.
I can see Smoker reaching Fleet Admiral and making World Government on how he sees it in respectful and right manner which can make sense since he is first one to push for change and see value of right and wrong on what 'Justice' truly is. Already the Shichibukai/Warlord system have just been abolished, so more changes to WG will come down the line and Smoker will push more on that without following anyone orders on how things should be done.
Yeah he will be Top 5 in EOS. There be few who can still challenge Luffy even as PK like Roger as doubt he be untouchable and no one can give him challenge as already we have line-up on who that be with:
1. Luffy
2. Kidd
3. Law
4. Smoker
5. Blackbeard
If Oda truly pushing others than just Luffy taking in positions to be the 'next' of their generation like Luffy is the next 'Roger' then we got good sight on those around him who will be that being Kidd and Law are going to be next Whitebeard and Shiki (Idk who will represent which, but no doubt they are his major pirate rivals), Smoker is the next 'Garp', and Blackbeard is definitely confirmed as next 'Xebec'.
With that that is top EOS 5 there. It make sense on where Oda is taking on portrayal and direction he want to see with them.
You are right. Its Shounen, main characters and their allies get stronger. However, Smoker isn't any one of them. He had two years to train and didn't show us anything substantial. Law beat smoker without a sweat. The same Law was defeated by Doflamingo. Then you put Smoker above Doflamingo.
Yes I am a fan of Law. But I have never over hype him up like you do with Sanji and Smoker. I don't rate Zoro over Sanji and vice versa.
He isn't done training though and neither is Law as if you think they still same level from back then. They gotten stronger and not just Strawhats alone who gets stronger over time.
Nah, I seen you just as a big fan for Law can come to many defense on him. Not really deep Sanji fan as I love all Strawhats, but will speak the truth than follow illogical conclusions about him. Will say I am Smoker fan though, but none of what I said on his potential going forward will go away. Judging by last movie while non-canon on events, Oda still sees Smoker as valuable character outside of the crew along with Law, Sabo, Hancock, Crocodile, Lucci, and Buggy to Luffy in portrayal. Happy you don't go into Z vs S type of illogical debates at least though.
Wait, what? You mean if Garp is the strongest in a 1vs1? I don't know how strong Garp was on his prime, and it's true that he's still around admiral level, but I wouldn't personally rate him over the yonkous or Mihawk. Probably not even on Akainu's current level, who surpassed Aokiji (although he should be close to his level).
Wait, what? You mean if Garp is the strongest in a 1vs1? I don't know how strong Garp was on his prime, and it's true that he's still around admiral level, but I wouldn't personally rate him over the yonkous or Mihawk. Probably not even on Akainu's current level, who surpassed Aokiji (although he should be close to his level).
Nah, I seen you just as a big fan for Law can come to many defense on him. Not really deep Sanji fan as I love all Strawhats, but will speak the truth than follow illogical conclusions about him. Will say I am Smoker fan though, but none of what I said on his potential going forward will go away. Judging by last movie while non-canon on events, Oda still sees Smoker as valuable character outside of the crew along with Law, Sabo, Hancock, Crocodile, Lucci, and Buggy to Luffy in portrayal. Happy you don't go into Z vs S type of illogical debates at least though.
Hell, yeah, a non-canon movie is reason to hype Smoker to be stronger than Doflamingo, but the anime episode adaptation of the manga showing Page One being just fine after clashing with Sanji is a sacrilege.
It's very hard to say why Garp can or can't be that strong because we never saw Garp go all out. Even at Marineford, if we were to judge him only by that, the only thing he did was getting smacked out of the way by Luffy (although obviously on purpose on Garp's side).
But if we take to heart that he teamed up with Roger to kick the Rocks' asses and that he really is "the Legendary marine", then he should be able to give the likes of Kaido a hard time.
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