One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

IMO:
Beginning of Wano arc Luffy loses High diff to Katakuri

Beginning of raid Luffy wins high-extreme diff against Katakuri

Current Luffy wins mid diff against Katakuri

 

[M3J]

I hope we see Luffy and Katakuri become rivals, they'd probably have fun fights.

 

[Bandit99]

Quick question - do y’all think current sanji can beat doflamingo?

add your thoughts and reasoning if you want

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Quick question - do y’all think current sanji can beat doflamingo?

add your thoughts and reasoning if you want

Yes and handily Lmao

 

[M3J]

if he still can't deal with the strings binding him, then he'll still lose. Luffy had an advantage in that he can expand his body while it's covered in haki, which helps him break out of strings. What does Sanji have?

 

[grey matter]

Quick question - do y’all think current sanji can beat doflamingo?

add your thoughts and reasoning if you want

Hard to tell.

Luffy had a much easier time against Doflamingo because of the nature of his DF. Luffy could expand and contract, hence breaking free relatively easily from his strings. And because his G4 made his body armament hardened while simultaneously rubbery.
But against people who can't change the shape/size of their body (i.e Zoans, logia and select few paramecia), the strings essentially become equivalent to tying you up with super hard ropes, you will only be even be able to exert a small fraction of your power.
For eg: Law, who I put somewhere between Luffy and Zoro throughout the series, basically got stomped.
I think Doflamingo would've stomped Zoro with the same difficulty he stomped Law and Sanji as well


Sanji is generally speaking above Doflamingo's level, but in this matchup he might actually lose.
In before someone gets triggered, I think current Zoro might lose to Doflamingo as well

 

[Core D. Roy]

After Luffy learned aCoA and aCoO, Luffy is ahead or equal to YC1s (my opinion). He only truly stepped into fighting Kaido 1v1 after learning aCoC. Luffy live floor can beat Katakuri imo, but not easily because of the nature of Katakuri's fruit plus better FS than Luffy.

Luffy after the fight with Katakuri still had weaker CoA and weaker CoO. G4 BounceMan can't hit Katakuri, base Luffy cannot match Katakuri, and only Snakeman can match it.

So, Luffy is mostly relying on Snakeman and his endurance.

If there is no plot armour, purely ability and stat wise, Katakuri is still ahead of Luffy.

Note: when I talk about rematches, also need to take into account all the BS plot armour that favoured Luffy in that fight.

Saying all of that, I can see why you would say Luffy would win. It's possible. I personally am leaning more towards Katakuri winning that's all.

Exactly this. Luffy could win as he is against Katakuri, in a Final Destination/No Items/1v1/Competitive match, but if I run that situation a hundred times, Katakuri is winning the vast majority of them. He has too much experience and a DF that is so special it literally has its own category because it behaves so much like a logia.

Even giving Luffy the one-up assuming ryuuo just negates the advantage Block Mochi-tier CoA gives Katakuri... Idk, I still can't see Luffy winning outright. But I think that's a good thing- their fight was one of ideals and clashing mirror'd personalities and it was much more about the gusto Luffy has and his pure, pure good boy heart than anything else. Which I appreciated. Neither character felt done dirty by that fight.

I wish I felt *any* of that with King/Zoro. There's just.. no personality to it. And the fight itself is pretty damn boring so far, minus the way pteranodon hunted prey in ancient times. First time I've enjoyed King.

All that said, Luffy is closing the gap with Katakuri at an insane rate as is. It should at least take him... a few months instead of a few weeks to catch up to the ~50 year old veteran that was introduced as doing everything he can do but better.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2021 ---

Hard to tell.

Luffy had a much easier time against Doflamingo because of the nature of his DF. Luffy could expand and contract, hence breaking free relatively easily from his strings. And because his G4 made his body armament hardened while simultaneously rubbery.
But against people who can't change the shape/size of their body (i.e Zoans, logia and select few paramecia), the strings essentially become equivalent to tying you up with super hard ropes, you will only be even be able to exert a small fraction of your power.
For eg: Law, who I put somewhere between Luffy and Zoro throughout the series, basically got stomped.
I think Doflamingo would've stomped Zoro with the same difficulty he stomped Law and Sanji as well


Sanji is generally speaking above Doflamingo's level, but in this matchup he might actually lose.
In before someone gets triggered, I think current Zoro might lose to Doflamingo as well

I think current Zoro loses to Doffy for a lot of the same reasons I say current Luffy loses to Katakuri. Like it'd be close as hell, but there's a LOT of moving parts to either matchup that need a thorough breakdown.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

After Luffy learned aCoA and aCoO, Luffy is ahead or equal to YC1s (my opinion). He only truly stepped into fighting Kaido 1v1 after learning aCoC. Luffy live floor can beat Katakuri imo, but not easily because of the nature of Katakuri's fruit plus better FS than Luffy.

Luffy after the fight with Katakuri still had weaker CoA and weaker CoO. G4 BounceMan can't hit Katakuri, base Luffy cannot match Katakuri, and only Snakeman can match it.

So, Luffy is mostly relying on Snakeman and his endurance.

If there is no plot armour, purely ability and stat wise, Katakuri is still ahead of Luffy.

Note: when I talk about rematches, also need to take into account all the BS plot armour that favoured Luffy in that fight.

Saying all of that, I can see why you would say Luffy would win. It's possible. I personally am leaning more towards Katakuri winning that's all.

IMO:
Beginning of Wano arc Luffy loses High diff to Katakuri

Beginning of raid Luffy wins high-extreme diff against Katakuri

Current Luffy wins mid diff against Katakuri

Exactly this. Luffy could win as he is against Katakuri, in a Final Destination/No Items/1v1/Competitive match, but if I run that situation a hundred times, Katakuri is winning the vast majority of them. He has too much experience and a DF that is so special it literally has its own category because it behaves so much like a logia.

Even giving Luffy the one-up assuming ryuuo just negates the advantage Block Mochi-tier CoA gives Katakuri... Idk, I still can't see Luffy winning outright. But I think that's a good thing- their fight was one of ideals and clashing mirror'd personalities and it was much more about the gusto Luffy has and his pure, pure good boy heart than anything else. Which I appreciated. Neither character felt done dirty by that fight.

I wish I felt *any* of that with King/Zoro. There's just.. no personality to it. And the fight itself is pretty damn boring so far, minus the way pteranodon hunted prey in ancient times. First time I've enjoyed King.

All that said, Luffy is closing the gap with Katakuri at an insane rate as is. It should at least take him... a few months instead of a few weeks to catch up to the ~50 year old veteran that was introduced as doing everything he can do but better.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2021 ---

I think current Zoro loses to Doffy for a lot of the same reasons I say current Luffy loses to Katakuri. Like it'd be close as hell, but there's a LOT of moving parts to either matchup that need a thorough breakdown.

We missing that luffy gets much stronger after each tough fught , the moment Kata recognizes him as a equal , luffy had gone up a level and when he’d rested and recovered he’d hit a new level

 

[I Am Atomic]

Sanji is generally speaking above Doflamingo's level, but in this matchup he might actually lose.

I do agree with the strings, and we don't really know how much force is required to break them off. Even Jozu was trapped temporarily.

However, will Doflamingo be able to hurt Sanji now? Sanji got tough exoskeleton (Queen's sword broke) plus regeneration. Sanji is also one of the quickest character (speed blitz Oven) with a natural affinity to CoO (dodge Katakuri's bean effortlessly). Both aspects are a bad match up for Doflamingo.

Doflamingo is broken because of his awakening. I don't even know how anyone would deal with awakening where even the floor you stand on attacks you. So flying is really important against Joker.

It would be an interesting fight.

I agree with you about Zoro. He will struggle the most and likely lose, while I think Sanji can win.

 

[grey matter]

I think current Zoro loses to Doffy for a lot of the same reasons I say current Luffy loses to Katakuri. Like it'd be close as hell, but there's a LOT of moving parts to either matchup that need a thorough breakdown.

Now that I think more about it, I don't think current Luffy mid diff katakuri anymore. Would be high diff.

Because, advanced version of haki, as explained by Hyogoro, needs the user to be calm and stress free, which Luffy definitely isn't in G4 lol
But without the speed of G4, Katakuri will dodge all the advanced haki Luffy use as well.

Still, I think Luffy had enough general growth in haki and stats during his time in prison, that I don't think Katakuri is above him in brute stats anymore.
So, I give current Luffy the W, high diff

I do agree with the strings, and we don't really know how much force is required to break them off. Even Jozu was trapped temporarily.

However, will Doflamingo be able to hurt Sanji now? Sanji got tough exoskeleton (Queen's sword broke) plus regeneration. Sanji is also one of the quickest character (speed blitz Oven) with a natural affinity to CoO (dodge Katakuri's bean effortlessly). Both aspects are a bad match up for Doflamingo.

Doflamingo is broken because of his awakening. I don't even know how anyone would deal with awakening where even the floor you stand on attacks you. So flying is really important against Joker.

It would be an interesting fight.

I agree with you about Zoro. He will struggle the most and likely lose, while I think Sanji can win.

Right, and Jozu is someone with brute strength to throw a giant mountain of ice lol, and IMO YC2 level.
Doflamingo's strings are very tricky, cause they cut the brute strength to a small fraction

And yes, I agree Sanji will face an easier time against Doflamingo than Zoro. Mainly because he can fly. While, the very land Zoro stands on will attack him

Still, it's tricky IMO. Sanji is fast, but so is Doflamingo. I don't think Sanji is as fast as G4 Luffy, and Doflamingo was somewhat able to keep up with him in speed. So, they're comparable in speed IMO.
The main problem for Doflamingo was that his strings basically got completely countered and overpowered by Luffy's rubbery armament hardening. He wouldn't face this issue against Sanji

The exoskeleton, it is definitely a factor. Doflamingo's strings are pretty lethal, it cut through Oars Jr's leg and Law's hand. And we're yet to see how tough the exoskeleton is. Apparently grunt bullets were still hurting him, and I don't think Queen used haki with that sword
Let's wait and see. We will know within 5-10 chapters

We missing that luffy gets much stronger after each tough fught , the moment Kata recognizes him as a equal , luffy had gone up a level and when he’d rested and recovered he’d hit a new level

This isn't DBZ lol, there is no zenkai boost. People get stronger only when they are in hard fights/training.
Luffy's stats and general haki got stronger during the fight with Katakuri. And during training and hardships in the prison and a week in waiting for the raid. Other than that, his stats hasn't particularly risen.
He learned new techniques with advanced armament and conqueror's, but I doubt they will be useful against Katakuri

Still, the the stats increase in prison + time till raid would be enough for me to give Luffy the W currently

 

[Moss Green]

You guys are out of your minds


Doflamingo is an irrelevant fighter to the current Monster Trio. He got absolutely got DEMOLISHED by Gear 4 he couldn’t compete with Luffy in any way. That same Gear 4 Luffy, when he could barely use it btw, had weaker haki than Cracker and had to go all out to break though just 1 of his biscuit soldiers. Big Mom herself said Cracker was more than enough for Luffy knowing he had just taken down Mingo.

Sanji and Zoro are both fighting guys who are at minimum in the same ballpark strength-wise with Katakuri, in reality they’re clearly physically stronger/more endurance, and we know for a fact are MUCH stronger than Cracker. With Sanji’s exo attacks that kill the “most proficient Haki users” don’t even hurt him…..how is Mingo going to damage him even if he can marionette him (which he can’t)????? Zoro is cutting a character that can only be cut by 5 people in the world…..how will Mingo defend himself??? He’s not strong enough to marionette Zoro and Zoro can clearly block all of his string attacks. Clearly no problem fighting an aerial opponent currently. Luffy needed help in both fights and fought cracker for half a day without even touching him before a breakthrough. These are mid diff fights for them

And Katakuri? Luffy was dead even with Katakuri in every stat at the end of their fight by his own words. FS, strength, you name it. If you restart that fight over from scratch from the end with none of Katakuri’s home field advantage at worst you can say it’s a 50/50 toss up. So we’ve got Luffy’s stat boost in Udon lugging blocks so now he’s stronger so fighting in base is easier. Then his haki boost in Udon now when he’s in Snakeman he’s clearly stronger in every way. Keep in mind Katakuri has none of his FS advantage so it’s a normal strength/speed contest. And finally ACoC which knocked the already boosted Luffy out cold…. What are we talking about?????

Also to whoever said it’s only CoO you need a level head for not CoA

 

[M3J]

wait, how is Sanji now superior to Doflamingo?

 

[XXGenesis]

@Pirate Queen
If you can agree Katakuri let Luffy win in the end. Especially the story elements at play as to why Katakuri let Luffy walk away.

Then you should be able to realize Luffy didn’t surpass Katakuri or his level during the end of that arc. He simply became on the low end of the YC1 tier.

It wasn’t until Udon, where Luffy realistically could defeat Katakuri.

 

[M3J]

Honestly, I don't see why 100% Luffy at the end of WCI couldn't beat 100% Katakuri, as Katakuri's main advantage was his Future Sight.

 

[aberick]

Both Katakuri and Luffy got knocked out in the end of fight and luffy wake up first and climb the hole, so kata wake up and seems even more tired than luffy, luffy was already ready to continue fightning, you can see the final panels, but whatever, we can say that this fight was a tie, now image this following scenario for people who are saying that luffy in the end of WCI could not defeat kata: let say kata did like about 50% damage to luffy before luffy got the FS, when the fight was so easy for him, luffy with ALOT more damage than katakuri could tie with Katakuri in the end of fight, now both of them 100% fresh facing each other, do people really think kata could win? some people has difficulties in understanding such simple and obvious things...
Luffy End of WCI: High diff Kata, Luffy with Ryou mid diff kata, only a few hits he could finish him, the guy did some damage to kaidou, the same who tank a bunch of attacks in G4, with CoC he can easily defeat him for sure...

 

[AmitDS]

I don't think it wouldn't be hard fought, but Katakuri's abilities would put Zoro at a MASSIVE disadvantage. Katakuri's future sight and mochi awakening basically nullify fancy swordsmanship. Not only is Zoro not eating his way out of being crushed/suffocated, he wouldn't have the wild plot armor Luffy had in that fight that necessitated Kata stabbing himself. Hell, in a pure 1v1 with no outside influence, even Luffy as he currently is would be a question mark, probably extremely high-diff victory at best.

You mean his sword CAN'T cut everything?

 

[Core D. Roy]

You mean his sword CAN'T cut everything?

What does cutting mochi even accomplish? And what I meant by the mochi awakening being a problem for swordsmanship is that Zoro can't fly. He has to rely on his footing for his strongest attacks.

As for other things Zoro's blades almost certainly can't cut, Doffy's strings were shown to be invincible and were never broken. Ugh... Birdcage was so stupid in the context of powerscaling.

 

[AmitDS]

What does cutting mochi even accomplish? And what I meant by the mochi awakening being a problem for swordsmanship is that Zoro can't fly. He has to rely on his footing for his strongest attacks.

As for other things Zoro's blades almost certainly can't cut, Doffy's strings were shown to be invincible and were never broken. Ugh... Birdcage was so stupid in the context of powerscaling.

Lol I got what you're saying, it's just I was poking fun at certain people that believe Zoro can in fact, cut everything xD

A lot of people gloss over the texture aspect of Katakuri's powerset because Luffy has a freakish appetite and ate through suffocation lol but the fact that mochi is so sticky and elastic would make it very hard for Zoro to get freed and even fight. The same can be said for other Holder/wielder-type fighting styles and even brawlers too. It's just overkill when you also factor in his awakening making the environment mochi as well. Couple that with FS and Zoro has a lot to try to overcome and even then he has to overcome Katakuri's own haki defenses AND offenses.
This could change after his King fight, but atm I don't think Zoro can perform similarly to Luffy did in his Katakuri fight based on his style vs. Katakuri's and Katakuri's FS.

Spoiler

Before people jump me I'm not saying he won't be "YC1" after King xD

EDIT: I just saw your Birdcage part lol. And yes it really was... Partly because of that, Fujitora is really underrated now in the fandom despite him having a really broken DF and well... He is an Admiral. Ironically enough tho, recently on other forums I've been seeing a lot of discourse about Fujitora in relation to the C3 and Green Bull and surprisingly I've been seeing a growing faction of Fujitora defenders. A couple months ago everyone just wrote him off as an 'entry-level' admiral. Progress I guess.

That brings up another topic for discussion
Where do we see Green Bull and Fujitora? Future Zoro/Sanji opponents? YC opponents in a future war?

 

[albertwv]

Honestly, it seems more people on this thread believe Luffy was NOT on Katakuris level right after WCI.

Sanji vs Doffy.
It seems Sanji has defeated Queen, (anti-climatic ending), Queen is a YC2 and I see Queen being able to handle Doffy. Remember Doffy is YC3 equal to Cracker and Jack. So therefore Sanji>Queen>Doffy.
Yet battling Doffy is quite a tough battle with his strings. I think Sanji is physically stronger now than Doffy but he would have some difficulty beating Doffy, because Sanji only has his legs to kick Doffy with. Even Zolo would have a hard time yes.
I dislike how people bring up Jozu vs Doffy. I dont think that was much of a fight and people think Doffy was stronger than Jozu simply because of that. I think Jozu could take on Doffy and maybe not even get CUT by the strings with his Diamond Armor.
I rank Jozu higher than Doffy.

 

[Rein Avara]

Honestly, it seems more people on this thread believe Luffy was NOT on Katakuris level right after WCI.

Sanji vs Doffy.
It seems Sanji has defeated Queen, (anti-climatic ending), Queen is a YC2 and I see Queen being able to handle Doffy. Remember Doffy is YC3 equal to Cracker and Jack. So therefore Sanji>Queen>Doffy.
Yet battling Doffy is quite a tough battle with his strings. I think Sanji is physically stronger now than Doffy but he would have some difficulty beating Doffy, because Sanji only has his legs to kick Doffy with. Even Zolo would have a hard time yes.
I dislike how people bring up Jozu vs Doffy. I dont think that was much of a fight and people think Doffy was stronger than Jozu simply because of that. I think Jozu could take on Doffy and maybe not even get CUT by the strings with his Diamond Armor.
I rank Jozu higher than Doffy.

Sorry but where's this chapter that shows Sanji defeating queen?