Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Franz]

Crying Sanji? How is that a stretch of character? How your saying like that feel like it shows you never watch the series at all or you forgot about early OP that Sanji have cried before and that was when he was leaving Baratie, his home with his coworkers/friends and father figure, Zeff. Saying he can't cry is pretty stupid as Sanji can cry, but he hardly does as it's only in rare moments in OP series about anything (Unless comical moments concerning females like Nami and Robin, but they are comical so they don't count and also with any of the main cast that cry on these moments too). Plus every Strawhat member in the crew had cry before whether before, during, or after joining the crew. Even Zoro cried a few times in OP's life with the prominent when he lost to Mihawk and make that vow to Luffy and he is also one of the few that rarely cries as well. There is no shame in letting out your feelings as not everyone need to be hard as stone and be unable to show emotion. It help them feel more relatable that way than being mindless and emotionless.

Personally I found it really ridiculous. What was it, really in love?


Or do you want me to believe that in a situation in which he had dreamed of dreams and companions it was enough for him to really live with a beautiful girl to be happy?

WCI report for Sanji:

- He gets screwed, blackmailed and substantially kidnapped (albeit with consent) from Bege
- "Save" the others with bravado, without having a shred of idea on how to get out
- He arrives and gets stomped in sequence, and repeatedly, from father and brothers, being able to have the best only on the youngest.
- He gets blackmailed by everyone
- He makes fun of his family, Big Mom and future bride.
- Pests one of his comrades, so .. because he wants to rub his family, but the only one that seems to believe it is Nami
- Confidently trust a daughter of an enemy empress, "Because I really want to marry you", serene and happy among other things to marry her .. because after all they are years, between adventures and training, spent in the company of your companions?
- Total desperation to discover that his enemy is really his enemy .. but come on ?!
- Still crying on him after finally having a glimmer of light and hope, having rediscovered in his sister an ally and being able to count on his companions.
- He wants to save the family that considers him a waste endangering the crew and allies.
- He cooks a cake that he says is so good that he throws down "Big Mom" but he only gets to make him an orgasm and mess up the situation for the allies even more.
-Stands an appearance.

In all this since the beginning the saga Sanji has never had control of the situation, has indeed been at the mercy of events set by others, the most serious thing is that it is not even the architect of its limelight that even there is totally at work of the sister.

Now some things are his fault others not, this is undeniable, what I think has no excuse is the attitude with which he faced this situation, must come the sister who has not seen for years and tell him:

"Wake up !!! Do you stop weeping at you? You do not have the problem of handcuffs anymore, your old man is not as in danger as you think, and there's a guy who's stupid like a monkey, but he's split in two an island to save people he had just met and now he's here to save you. "

 

[King Moe]

Personally I found it really ridiculous. What was it, really in love?


Or do you want me to believe that in a situation in which he had dreamed of dreams and companions it was enough for him to really live with a beautiful girl to be happy?

WCI report for Sanji:

- He gets screwed, blackmailed and substantially kidnapped (albeit with consent) from Bege
- "Save" the others with bravado, without having a shred of idea on how to get out
- He arrives and gets stomped in sequence, and repeatedly, from father and brothers, being able to have the best only on the youngest.
- He gets blackmailed by everyone
- He makes fun of his family, Big Mom and future bride.
- Pests one of his comrades, so .. because he wants to rub his family, but the only one that seems to believe it is Nami
- Confidently trust a daughter of an enemy empress, "Because I really want to marry you", serene and happy among other things to marry her .. because after all they are years, between adventures and training, spent in the company of your companions?
- Total desperation to discover that his enemy is really his enemy .. but come on ?!
- Still crying on him after finally having a glimmer of light and hope, having rediscovered in his sister an ally and being able to count on his companions.
- He wants to save the family that considers him a waste endangering the crew and allies.
- He cooks a cake that he says is so good that he throws down "Big Mom" but he only gets to make him an orgasm and mess up the situation for the allies even more.
-Stands an appearance.

In all this since the beginning the saga Sanji has never had control of the situation, has indeed been at the mercy of events set by others, the most serious thing is that it is not even the architect of its limelight that even there is totally at work of the sister.

Now some things are his fault others not, this is undeniable, what I think has no excuse is the attitude with which he faced this situation, must come the sister who has not seen for years and tell him:

"Wake up !!! Do you stop weeping at you? You do not have the problem of handcuffs anymore, your old man is not as in danger as you think, and there's a guy who's stupid like a monkey, but he's split in two an island to save people he had just met and now he's here to save you. "

When your in a heavy situation like that being blackmail, forced, with people who don't love you much in your life and can't do nothing without someone dying, he thought he could lean on Pudding on it due to how she acted to him. Can't really blame him if your in the character perspective, how would you feel and take it? Not ridiculous, it make sense that he can't stay calm in a situation as heavy as this, you know?

Also as for your WCI report you mention:

1. I get the blackmail, but to say he was kidnapped? Lol, look at the Zou arc and look how Sanji went out, If anything, Sanji forced Bege to leave his friends be and take him only. That isn't kidnapping as he said he wanted to confront this to see what is going on and also to stop whatever it is so it won't cause problems for himself, but mostly for his crew and friends. So he went more willingly on going than being kidnapped.

2. How can you plan when you don't know exactly what going on? You expect him to have a through though out plan when he doesn't the situation yet? You can't blame him taking the initiative on saving his friends first and go alone to see what the hell is going on since again he haven't seen his family for years or the mess they got themselves into with BM.

3. Everyone? You mean just Germa, right? BM never blackmailed him on anything, so don't know what you mean by "everyone" as I don't see that. Though I agree that happen, but again you can't really blame him on that as would you really risk on fighting back at others who have your love ones in jeopardy and could blow a body part off if you try to leave?

4. Yeah that happen for sure during the start as he wasn't into the idea much, so I agree with you there.

5. Pests? I have no idea what your saying in this one.

6. Again, he can't interact with anyone around and how Pudding was acting to him, he thought she was more sincere and with situation he is dealing, he needed someone to lean on as he couldn't walk out or fight back at the moment. Also in defense, just because they are Big Mom's bloodline doesn't mean all are evil as some have shown to be on good side of things like Lola from Thriller Bark and Aladin's wife who didn't have qualms on betraying BM too, so it could go to say Pudding would be (Is at the end of the arc) like them. Some people think that as well when reading the manga on her too.

7. This goes with what I said above on Pudding, but I can get what you mean on him being a bit more guarded, but you know how Sanji is with women as he see all are good inside which turn out to be true in the end as Pudding did change because of him and was now genuine in love with him and help him and his friends, so can't say he was "wrong" on for how he acted to her.

8. Again, situation can make you emotional. You have to imagine being in a situation like that and not think that you can simply kick anyone's ass and can get away with it especially when your under blackmail and in Yonko territory. Not much Sanji could do on his hands at that point.

9. I get if your the type of person who will live them high and dry, but you have to understand Sanji's personality along with Luffy and the others. They aren't evil people who let people's lives go away and rot if they have a chance to save them. They are just good-nature really and Luffy and the others have no qualms on saving them one bit, so they accept it, he didn't force them as he even try to not involve them early before they happily agree. If they did especially leave Reiju to die like that, it would make them look as bad as Germa on their end too. Kinda go with "two wrongs, don't make a right" figure of speech for this.

10. That one you can't blame on Sanji as he needed to make the cake or less more people will die out of this during her crazy hunger of hers. She was even about to destroy the Sunny and kill the other Strawhats if cake didn't intervene with it's smell. So you can't say it was pointless on making it if it would leave into more disastrous results if they did nothing on stopping her. Plus for their allies, that isn't Sanji or Strawhats's fault, that their own for staying behind. Sanji and the others rescue Germa and they all went their separate ways.

Though the Germa came back to get involve again and Jimbei went back to save his crew that came to intervene as well. All were by their own accord, Sanji, Luffy, and the others didn't force them to confront the BM, they did by their own will as even Luffy tried to stop Jimbei from going back, but he refuse on staying and letting his crew to face this and give them chance to escape. You can't blame a person for another's action if they have their own will to do this despite the other never ask them to do so or didn't know they will do something like this at all. Sure, Strawhats could stay and help them, but it would ruin and disrespect what Germa and Sun Pirates goal is and that is to let them escape. They all were really going to have a full on battle with BM, just distracting them long enough to help the Strawhats and get away themselves.

I agree Sanji was at the mercy of the early of arc, but in midway or so, he turn things around and wasn't bound by anything and help out a lot more because of it in the end of the day, so he wasn't acting how your saying in the whole arc for that long as once he was clear of what was holding him back, he didn't hesitate to help out his friends and allies.

I get faults, but your still aiming at the wrong aspects and ignoring crucial ones as others have faults to lead to this situation than Sanji put into. He help out during the arc, so that help clear his faults as he tries his best for others and saving them in the process.

True Reiju did have a hand on him gaining his senses, but still got understand the character's perspective of how it feels to be helpless for temporarily time that if you try to act out, your finish or someone dies because of you and you can't seem to trust anybody at all anymore until he reconcile with his sister again to help him with that. True issue is that some don't try to think that way and read only by reader's perspective thinking that would have gotten out easy or understand how it works, but don't if you try thinking in the shoes of a character in the end, not how yourself as a reader.

 

[Franz]

When your in a heavy situation like that being blackmail, forced, with people who don't love you much in your life and can't do nothing without someone dying, he thought he could lean on Pudding on it due to how she acted to him

Not Sanji, or at least not Sanji as it was written by Oda.

If it were a new character I would have understood, but so ......

2. How can you plan when you don't know exactly what going on? .

I repeat, did you really expect it from the Sanji of Enies Lobby or Alabasta, the one that saves everyone with sudden plans?

Did he really expect to solve the situation alone?

3. Everyone? You mean just Germa, right? BM never blackmailed him on anything,

No, the threat to Zeff started from Big Mom, she delivered the handcuffs to Jaji.

Again, he can't interact with anyone around and how Pudding was acting to him, he thought she was more sincere and with situation he is dealing, he needed someone to lean on as he couldn't walk out or fight back at the moment.

But I can understand if instead of Sanji there had been a character entered the crew for two three weeks, but that Sanji, the same has given his life to the captain and the crew, give the first moins of a lady known a few days ago ridiculous....

but you have to understand Sanji's personality along with Luffy and the others. They aren't evil people who let people's lives go away and rot if they have a chance to save them. .

Truly the crew has never done such a thing ..... and Sanji before WCI has never been described as an angel descended to earth.

10. That one you can't blame on Sanji as he needed to make the cake or less more people will die out of this during her crazy hunger of hers. She was even about to destroy the Sunny and kill the other Strawhats if cake didn't intervene with it's smell. So you can't say it was pointless on making it if it would leave into more disastrous results if they did nothing on stopping her. Plus for their allies, that isn't Sanji or Strawhats's fault, that their own for staying behind. Sanji and the others rescue Germa and they all went their separate ways.

Admitting, however, that it is decidedly depressing that since the timeskip started, Sanji's only notable event was to cook a cake ....



Then we move on to the culinary side ... and certainly Oda is committed to make it pass as a great cook, but why then debase it also making them say a myriad of times that the cake would have fainted BM and then in fact do nothing?

Just to have the final cliffangher of BM that falls on Germa and Pirates of the Sun? (to which among other things no credit since now) ... mah ...

 

[King Moe]

Not Sanji, or at least not Sanji as it was written by Oda.

If it were a new character I would have understood, but so ......



I repeat, did you really expect it from the Sanji of Enies Lobby or Alabasta, the one that saves everyone with sudden plans?

Did he really expect to solve the situation alone?



No, the threat to Zeff started from Big Mom, she delivered the handcuffs to Jaji.



But I can understand if instead of Sanji there had been a character entered the crew for two three weeks, but that Sanji, the same has given his life to the captain and the crew, give the first moins of a lady known a few days ago ridiculous....



Truly the crew has never done such a thing ..... and Sanji before WCI has never been described as an angel descended to earth.



Admitting, however, that it is decidedly depressing that since the timeskip started, Sanji's only notable event was to cook a cake ....



Then we move on to the culinary side ... and certainly Oda is committed to make it pass as a great cook, but why then debase it also making them say a myriad of times that the cake would have fainted BM and then in fact do nothing?

Just to have the final cliffangher of BM that falls on Germa and Pirates of the Sun? (to which among other things no credit since now) ... mah ...

1. What you mean? It could happen to anyone and no one can stop something like that as what made you think Sanji is unaffected to blackmail and a situation like that? Hell anyone can become like that if they feel helpless and need something to help them out and be emotional due to situation like that one.

2. Sanji knew the situation though on those events to come up with plans and ideas though, this one it came out of left field and he had no idea about Pudding, Big Mom, or Germa who he lost contact with years ago. How do you expect him to know everything and know a plan to counter all of this so easily and simple? That would be bad writing and make him like a Gary Sue of perfection if he knew how to handle this all by himself.

3. You sure? As looking back in the arc, no BM Pirate ever mention Zeff or Batarie to Sanji or where he came from. Maybe they know he is from an restaurant in the Grand Line, but not much detail than that except Germa only knows and said to Sanji. So it begs that Germa never fully told them everything on Sanji, so his background could be still be safe away from them if Germa never told them anything at all on it.

4. Well you know Sanji's character. He loves the ladies and let's not forget he is a man who was trapped on an island for two years straight with some homosexual Okamas chasing him 24/7 around the island to his dismay as he ran away from them all. Not farfetched if you look back on that and why he didn't mind leaning on Pudding being a woman and also how she was acting to him and being sincere to help with that for him to lean on him, so it's understandable if you look into it like that on what he been through.

5. What you mean? They saved people before in each arc. Why you said them saving Germa isn't something they do when it been showcase in OP they rescue and help others? It's not farfetched and they already be describe as that type of pirate crew around.

6. Not really, he has other feats just the cake alone. Again, your blocking the other stuff he has done over focusing on a matter that is bugging you. That doesn't help your post be more unbiased about it.

7. Well it did made her faint as you saw her in an panel on the ground and laying there for awhile before getting back up. It did it's job, but everyone thought she be asleep forever which is an underestimate as the cake was meant to distract and put her away for awhile to stop her madness and give time for them to escape from her, not so much she is K.O. for a long time as we doubt that it be that long for her to get up. Again, your saying it did "nothing" when it did a lot to save others than you think. Without the cake, the situation would have look much worse than before if Sanji did nothing and didn't make the cake himself.

8. Well Oda like keeping us in suspense and cliffhanger to want us to know what happen to them, but I highly doubt he would kill them off as Germa will be at Reverie, so it does nothing to them and Jimbei is possible to come back as well too or can be use for a key point of a rematch of the BM vs the Strawhats again with all full members around this time out in another arc.

 

[Franz]

1. What you mean? It could happen to anyone and no one can stop something like that as what made you think Sanji is unaffected to blackmail and a situation like that? Hell anyone can become like that if they feel helpless and need something to help them out and be emotional due to situation like that one.

I would have just avoided this whole thing.

The more it is seen how it was solved.

2. Sanji knew the situation though on those events to come up with plans and ideas though, this one it came out of left field and he had no idea about Pudding, Big Mom, or Germa who he lost contact with years ago. How do you expect him to know everything and know a plan to counter all of this so easily and simple?

Sanji knew nothing about EL or Alabasta. But yet....

You sure? As looking back in the arc, no BM Pirate ever mention Zeff or Batarie to Sanji or where he came from.

Vito suggests something in Sanji's ear.

Later on, Pekoms says that Sanji was caught up using the life of Zeff or one of the okamas .....

Finally we see Tamago delivering the handcuffs and the photo of Zeff to Jaji.

The one famous for killing the relatives of those who make the disagreements is Big Mom.

. Well you know Sanji's character. He loves the ladies and let's not forget he is a man who was trapped on an island for two years straight with some homosexual Okamas chasing him 24/7 around the island to his dismay as he ran away from them all.

It does not justify anything.

one account is the gags, the other the plot factors.

That Sanji fall down everything and everyone, and he does it with a smile on his lips at the first blows of a beautiful girl is ridiculous. No more, no less.

What you mean? They saved people before in each arc.

Not the enemies.

And the Vinsnoke were enemies.

Not really, he has other feats just the cake alone.

Which ?
To be led and humiliated by everyone?
Defeat an extra ?

 

[King Moe]

I would have just avoided this whole thing.

The more it is seen how it was solved.



Sanji knew nothing about EL or Alabasta. But yet....



Vito suggests something in Sanji's ear.

Later on, Pekoms says that Sanji was caught up using the life of Zeff or one of the okamas .....

Finally we see Tamago delivering the handcuffs and the photo of Zeff to Jaji.

The one famous for killing the relatives of those who make the disagreements is Big Mom.




It does not justify anything.

one account is the gags, the other the plot factors.

That Sanji fall down everything and everyone, and he does it with a smile on his lips at the first blows of a beautiful girl is ridiculous. No more, no less.


Not the enemies.

And the Vinsnoke were enemies.





Which ?
To be led and humiliated by everyone?
Defeat an extra ?

1. "Avoided the whole thing"? Are you seriously saying that? Ice? Your serious? They just explained in the series if someone even dares to denied BM and her crew on accepting an invitation from them that it be the death of them especially. Did you really forget about that organ donor guy in the manga/anime when he refused to go due to his personal problems and in return they behead his father and kill him? Really, your aiming at the wrong areas to try to justify your argument when Oda already provided that this was something Sanji and his crew CAN'T (emphasizing, not yelling) avoid as eventuality BM Pirates would hunt down Sanji and his crew and that would range more problems along with probably going and finding out each of everyone's love ones and go after them too.

Nothing you can say that Sanji should have ignored this and go on his way as that would make him selfish for causing the issue by ignoring it and make the situation not just worse for him, but everyone around him. He did the right thing in accepting and dealing with it the best he can.

2. "Sanji knew nothing on what happened in Albastsa and Enies Lobby"? Uhh....Dude, yeah he did knew about those. You forget when Sanji was under the "Mr. Prince" persona when communicating to Bartoque Works and he was the only one in the Strawhats that the pirates didn't knew about fully and never got his picture. He learn from communications on the situation and was able to plan out things from there and the rest of events.

Same thing with Enies Lobby as he found out about the Gate of Justice and told everyone about it along with helping out on telling Usopp to snipe at his enemies since it was something he excel at while he take care of the physical fighters himself. It seems you either forgetting history of Sanji so easily just because of one arc or your deliberately not giving credit to him to admit that he is quite a planner. There is a reason why fans call him one of the smartest and strategist members of the crew after all.

3. We don't know what Vito really said, but I don't think it was Baratie. Probably just that it was Vinsmoke and his marriage, so you can't really determine if they knew or not in that scene since it was muted out.

Also what on Pekoms? I didn't understand what you meant there.

He did deliver the handcuffs, yes. Though the picture wasn't in the exchanging and knowing how persuasive Tamago was trying to be early with Sanji, he would have mention Zeff to force him more to their side, but never said anything about him or Baratie. So that shows more that Vinsmokes knew the whole situation more than BM and never told them much on his background.

4. Not so much as gag, but it's a fact as look at him after Two Year Timeskip in Fishman Island, for not having seen women for so long, he has recope himself around women again and become petrified on seeing them, so it make sense if he is falling for women a bit more as if it was simply a gag, he would turn back to normal fully, but it seems that he going through therapy on seeing women again.

It within his character and make sense and again, think in his shoes and that no one else is speaking or on his side except for Pudding, so he speaks to someone who he thinks is quite sincere and in a situation your in, your eager on finding someone who you can trust and help you in the end.

5. Not necessarily, maybe they were semi-antagonist, but it kinda reminds from other arcs like Impel Down where Luffy free Crocodile despite their past history and he ally to help them, so they weren't really the main villains or bad guys of this as just unlikely allies you have to team up to get out alive and aim for a goal. So them saving their lives isn't something out of ordinary from what they have done and One Piece in general before. In situations like these, you will have unlikely allies whether you want them or not.

6. Huh? Dude, your biased as hell in that statement. I can tell now. Look back at the arc as Sanji after finding out his handcuffs were fake and such, he carried out on the wedding and clashes with many BM pirates like Daifuku, Oven, and so forth and taken down people like Bobbin (Who has 100+ million bounty I might add, so no joke on that) and Raisin another strong fighter of BM Pirates. Don't know where you say he was humiliated and defeated by everyone as that is a blatant lie and you know it. He have feats both in the cake and physical one against the pirates. None of these were fodder characters and are no joke. They are Yonko Crew and they don't go down easily.

He show his character both ways and the arc has been clear on that. Just that few/some people are being blinded to much by other things to fully open their mind on the arc and what the theme and impact it has as it was clearly there.

 

[Franz]

The problem with Vinsmoke is that they do not have a true characterization. They are evil only because they hate and despise everything that Sanji loves, a very comfortable characterization.

The father is then a horrible person, but not because it is bad, but because it is characterized by disgust. It should be a brilliant scientist, so if Sanji is an experiment that has come badly let me see that he studies and tortures him to figure out where he was wrong (being the scientist), but no, he just mistreated and tell him bad things, just for the sake of to show bad things that happen to poor Sanji .....

The dream of Sanji relegated to two constipated vignettes because it was more important to show how tragic his past had been, and a quarrel between him and Luffy, which is a wrong middle ground between the one with Usop and the one with Robin.

And the question I ask myself is: did we really feel the need? Did we feel the need to develop the story of Sanji with a tragic past, with a family of villains, to develop his character through a quarrel with Luffy and an abandonment of the crew? Was this really what we wanted from the year of Sanji?

 

[King Moe]

The problem with Vinsmoke is that they do not have a true characterization. They are evil only because they hate and despise everything that Sanji loves, a very comfortable characterization.

The father is then a horrible person, but not because it is bad, but because it is characterized by disgust. It should be a brilliant scientist, so if Sanji is an experiment that has come badly let me see that he studies and tortures him to figure out where he was wrong (being the scientist), but no, he just mistreated and tell him bad things, just for the sake of to show bad things that happen to poor Sanji .....

The dream of Sanji relegated to two constipated vignettes because it was more important to show how tragic his past had been, and a quarrel between him and Luffy, which is a wrong middle ground between the one with Usop and the one with Robin.

And the question I ask myself is: did we really feel the need? Did we feel the need to develop the story of Sanji with a tragic past, with a family of villains, to develop his character through a quarrel with Luffy and an abandonment of the crew? Was this really what we wanted from the year of Sanji?

I wouldn't say that, they aren't evil for the sake of evil, but because of Judge wanting to have a kingdom of his own and wanted warriors that he knew won't fail him in being uncompassionate and such. Which brings in on him experimenting on his children to gain that goal and bring back the pride of having a Kingdom for them all, but did it in a inhumane manner. Also it seem to be hinted another goal based on him used to work together with Casear Clown and Vegapunk back in the day before he left too that probably Vegapunk disregard with. Also Reiju wasn't evil person as she was born before the experiments, so wouldn't put her along with this in the end.

Also what you said there, doesn't that count in testing as he wanted him to be uncompassionate and be more ruthlesses, so technically that is experimenting, but along with abuse as things go on along the way.

Pretty sure it was planned awhile back as hints shown Sanji being somewhere else than in the East Blue, so there was already more to his past than planned by Oda and this was something he was going to bring to the table sooner or later. Also again, few/some are missing the vital points of the arc for something else when it was exactly how it should be than looking for other ways to try to criticize it. Not saying it was perfect, but how it was set up wasn't out of nowhere or Oda just inserting to sake of inserting, but well thought out and planning on Sanji's character in other aspects than fighting alone which we still got some fighting clashes in the arc and we will still get more in the future as we head to Wano Arc and so forth.

 

[Franz]

I wouldn't say that, they aren't evil for the sake of evil, but because of Judge wanting to have a kingdom of his own

No.

The characterization of the Vinsmoke has always been "bad because they hate everything that Sanji loves". This is undeniable. But so you do not characterize a character, you just make it trivial and stereotypical.

And it would not be too bad if we talked about characters connected to a third-person character or fourth-order enemies, but we talk about the family of one of the protagonists as well as the engine of events of WCI, certainly not of any Bellamy.

They had to be better characterized.

Also what you said there, doesn't that count in testing as he wanted him to be uncompassionate and be more ruthlesses, so technically that is experimenting, but along with abuse as things go on along the way.

No sorry.

If Oda presents Jaji as a scientist he must make him a scientist. Point.

Instead he treats him and represents as a snooty noble and yet quite idiot.

And let's get back to the same point, Jaji is characterized only as a function of Sanji. It's bad with him and his only function is to tell him bad things just to show how poor little Sanji was.

Pretty sure it was planned awhile back as hints shown Sanji being somewhere else than in the East Blue, so there was already more to his past than planned by Oda and this was something he was going to bring to the table sooner or later.

Given the stuff he took out, it was better if he never did it at this point.

 

[King Moe]

No.

The characterization of the Vinsmoke has always been "bad because they hate everything that Sanji loves". This is undeniable. But so you do not characterize a character, you just make it trivial and stereotypical.

And it would not be too bad if we talked about characters connected to a third-person personagigo or fourth-order enemies, but pralimo the fmaille of one of the protagonists as well as the engine of events of WCI, certainly not of any Bellamy.

They had to be better characterized.




No sorry.

If Oda presents Jaji as a scientist he must make him a scientist. Point.

Instead he treats him and represents as a snooty noble and yet quite idiot.

And let's get back to the same point, Jaji is characterized only as a function of Sanji. It's bad with him and his only function is to tell him bad things just to show how poor little Sanji was.



Given the stuff he took out, it was better if he never did it at this point.

Well they weren't made only for Sanji's obstacle as they have more influence than that as Oda plans on using them in the future as Judge has connections to Vegapunk just like Casear and they are probably going to show up at the Reverie as well, so that wasn't there only purpose on what your saying.

Also for your second line, your acting as if Oda needs to be straightforward with his actions when that isn't what One Piece is as not all the characters are just one-dimensional on being just a scientist only as they can be multiple things. Look at Humans in real life as we do more than just be one thing in our occupation, so don't know where your getting at with that claim. Also you can see at the end of the arc, the Germa 66 are developing after their actions not just on being trick, but how they see Sanji in a new light judging by how they came back to help him and such.

Took out? Nothing was taken out. Again your putting words that don't exist as Sanji still suffered the same he did with Zeff, and just have something to fill in the hole of where he came from. From what I heard, this expanded his character more and fill in plot holes instead of leaving it just a mystery and a bit inconsistent since he would still need a way to cross to East Blue and this is how it happened and why he end up in the situation he was to lead up to Zeff. Nothing contradicts anything at all as he plans it like I said above.

 

[Franz]

However, it is wonderful as the last chapter demonstrates how WCI was an absolutely useless arc for the development of Sanji XD

Well they weren't made only for Sanji's obstacle as they have more influence than that as Oda plans on using them in the future as Judge has connections to Vegapunk just like Casear and they are probably going to show up at the Reverie as well, so that wasn't there only purpose on what your saying.

Unfortunately....

Also for your second line, your acting as if Oda needs to be straightforward with his actions when that isn't what One Piece is as not all the characters are just one-dimensional on being just a scientist only as they can be multiple things.

Well, the Vinsmokes are.

They are not bad because yes, but bad only because they treat badly and hate everything that Sanj loves.

Wow, what a deep characterization ..

Took out? Nothing was taken out. Again your putting words that don't exist as Sanji still suffered the same he did with Zeff, and just have something to fill in the hole of where he came from.

There was no hole to fill. Or if you really wanted to fill it (as it is stupid enough to do it after almost 20 years, but oh well) had to do it in another way that was not that ...... abortion of the flashback of volume 84.

That is, it does not even seem written by Oda, but rather by one who tries to imitate it (badly)

 

[King Moe]

However, it is wonderful as the last chapter demonstrates how WCI was an absolutely useless arc for the development of Sanji XD



Unfortunately....



Well, the Vinsmokes are.

They are not bad because yes, but bad only because they treat badly and hate everything that Sanj loves.

Wow, what a deep characterization ..



There was no hole to fill. Or if you really wanted to fill it (as it is stupid enough to do it after almost 20 years, but oh well) had to do it in another way that was not that ...... abortion of the flashback of volume 84.

That is, it does not even seem written by Oda, but rather by one who tries to imitate it (badly)

You can't just leave and quit a debate/argument, can you xD?

It develop more on his layers along with his aspects as you seen how he felt about the events that happened after leaving and his moment share with Carrot. He isn't going to turn 180 degree and become another person. How deep of a change were you expecting?

Fortunately actually. You really need to stop taking this so seriously and reread the arc to truly understand on what was Oda's purpose. You saw how he is writing Reverie Arc and now as we head to Wano. He didn't lose no step in writing and knew what he was doing with WCI perfectly.

They started out like that, but they are also bad due to Judge and what happened to him in the past that lead him to this path, so it's not bad for the sake of Sanji as they are bad to everyone until now as they are developing out of it as Oda showcasing here. Seems like your more complaining on wanting them be the same thing and be the end of them instead of having them around for future purposes that Oda obviously have planned out.

Yes there was a hole to fill. Have you honestly been reading the series and not understand the hints and implying from Sanji these past arcs since his debut? He didn't come from East Blue, he would have to cross it somehow, so how would that happen? That was a plot hole for awhile until WCI Arc explains his past and how he end up the way he is.

Oda doesn't rush all the ''Mysteries' in the series at all once. If he did that, OP would be over and many things will be rush and leave a bad taste in our mouths. You really don't know OP at all, do you? The man like planning it out and soon revealing it so it make sense and worth the wait, not rush it in and explain it next chapter as it takes away a lot of the hype and mystery from it. That one of the main stuff OP builds on and everyone love the adventure and mystery behind it has. This was one of them that was finally solve after all these years now.

Again, that's your low opinion that you never understand the character and how Oda's write things as obviously you never pay attention to OP in a deeper meaning these past arcs. You seem to want only something on the outside than inside which is a bad way to look at the series if you came this far. Everything will be in bad taste to you at this rate on what you have seen and read. Not just the Sanji stuff, but you also complain about Sabo's return and other things. None of these were bad writing aspects, just you misunderstanding and thinking it's bad cause it not what you think or didn't try to learn deeper about that it make sense to you while it make sense to many other people.

 

[Franz]

They started out like that, but they are also bad due to Judge and what happened to him in the past that lead him to this path, so it's not bad for the sake of Sanji as they are bad to everyone until now as they are developing out of it as Oda showcasing here. Seems like your more complaining on wanting them be the same thing and be the end of them instead of having them around for future purposes that Oda obviously have planned out.

The same continues to be flat and boring characters, devoid of any charm and characterized only by the fact that they hate everything that Sanji loves.

What profound characters.

Yes there was a hole to fill. Have you honestly been reading the series and not understand the hints and implying from Sanji these past arcs since his debut? He didn't come from East Blue, he would have to cross it somehow, so how would that happen? That was a plot hole for awhile until WCI Arc explains his past and how he end up the way he is.

Do not make me laugh.
Now everything was in preparation for WCI? But seriously XD

I will never believe it, if I call myself Osa of this vulgate of the Vinsmoke and of the "bad and bad" childhood of the poor little angel Sanji on the moment XD

The hole to be repaired did not exist, of all the important things certainly nobody was pining on Sanji's sentence of volume 25 ......

Oda doesn't rush all the ''Mysteries' in the series at all once. If he did that, OP would be over and many things will be rush and leave a bad taste in our mouths.

But no, we're not joking.

A mystery you must treat it as such, you have to deepen it, make it part of the story and not take it out after 15 years from nowhere.

In 15 a character, especially if protaongist, is perfectly characterized fia, you can not give him a backstory so from nothing by attaching to a sentence that was not important (because it was not at all, since when Sanji talks about North Blue he does it with all the tranquility of this way and certainly not like the place where his family tortured him for years).

Again, that's your low opinion that you never understand the character

Everyone sees what he wants, but to say that Sanji has not been ruined by WCI means having slices of ham in front of his eyes.

d how Oda's write things as obviously you never pay attention to OP in a deeper meaning these past arcs.

Maybe you should be the one to read the manga well, because I assure you that the Baratie is one of my favorite mini arc, and so I know how Sanji has been ruined.

Not just the Sanji stuff, but you also complain about Sabo's return and other things. None of these were bad writing aspects

And who says?

For many, they are so.

 

[King Moe]

The same continues to be flat and boring characters, devoid of any charm and characterized only by the fact that they hate everything that Sanji loves.

What profound characters.


Do not make me laugh.
Now everything was in preparation for WCI? But seriously XD

I will never believe it, if I call myself Osa of this vulgate of the Vinsmoke and of the "bad and bad" childhood of the poor little angel Sanji on the moment XD

The hole to be repaired did not exist, of all the important things certainly nobody was pining on Sanji's sentence of volume 25 ......

But no, we're not joking.

A mystery you must treat it as such, you have to deepen it, make it part of the story and not take it out after 15 years from nowhere.

In 15 a character, especially if protaongist, is perfectly characterized fia, you can not give him a backstory so from nothing by attaching to a sentence that was not important (because it was not at all, since when Sanji talks about North Blue he does it with all the tranquility of this way and certainly not like the place where his family tortured him for years).

Everyone sees what he wants, but to say that Sanji has not been ruined by WCI means having slices of ham in front of his eyes.



Maybe you should be the one to read the manga well, because I assure you that the Baratie is one of my favorite mini arc, and so I know how Sanji has been ruined.

And who says?

For many, they are so.

Nah, just you missing a lot of points if you didn't see their development out of the arc at all especially when they WILLING (Emphasizing, not yelling) choose to come back to help out when they could have just been gone and leave them all to die. No way they are one-dimensional like your saying especially Reiju XD.

Why is that farfetched? Oda plans long term, you don't think he has shown that many times? Also congratz proofing more your biased as hell as you make fun of this and act like your right and get counter still. There were holes and it was filled. So how did he got across? Why didn't Sanji never mention his background more at all? Where he got the love of cooking? These were filled up like it or not, so yeah it was needed. Sorry your too simple-minded to understand that ;P.

He did do that and deepen it as he use hints and such. He can't always focus on every little mystery especially when new arcs is about something else that has to be focus too. You just got to learn how to be more observant than thinking Oda is doing a bad job at writing when he clearly isn't. Your going got yourself to blame and your points aren't even trying to convince or reach what we are talking about at all.

Lol, then talk that on Youtube on those who review the whole arc and what it was all about and the purpose. Joy Boy, Mr. Morj, and Craftsdwarf gave wy the arc was how it was on Sanji and how it was good than bad what you and few minority are saying, so yeah your not getting your point across as much as you think. Look at other websites like Reddit, Twitter, and so on. They don't think like you as well especially the fake "hate" on Oda to Sanji when last week, the man got a personal one shot by famous authors of Food Wars out of everyone in the main cast? Clearly Oda has a "agenda" on Sanji as why would he do that? Hmm? Yeah, it's only you guys who think this and never get the reason as you don't try to understand, you try to justify your means instead of learning why it happen and it understandable it is.

Nah, your lying as he still the same guy and the WCI has similar elements to Baratie like Joy Boy said in his WCI Review video go check it out ot understand and enlighten your mind instead of thinking his character is ruined cause your refuse to listen and admit when your wrong.

No it's not. I haven't met anyone or major scale compare about these, just you and minority few so far. So need to get your facts straight buddy as it didn't ruin OP at all or Oda's writing as well .

 

[M3J]

Sanji: saves people, succeeds in baking a cake that draws Big Mom away from the ship and prevents her from doing any damage or stopping the ship from escaping, saves an exhausted Luffy, and is the reason why Bege continued to help the Straw Hats by luring BIg Mom away

Luffy: got his ass handed to him few times, unnecessarily fought Katakuri again when he should have been on the run and trying to reunite with his crew, evolved his CoO in a way that won't help him against Kaidou and Big Mom unless speed makes a difference, and had to be saved by Sanji and others otherwise they'd never have escaped

Dumb readers: omg Sanji is useless he sucks, so weak and did nothing!1 wah! Luffy did the most, he's better and was more useful! blahblahbalh

 

[afromarco005]

Sanji: saves people, succeeds in baking a cake that draws Big Mom away from the ship and prevents her from doing any damage or stopping the ship from escaping, saves an exhausted Luffy, and is the reason why Bege continued to help the Straw Hats by luring BIg Mom away

Luffy: got his ass handed to him few times, unnecessarily fought Katakuri again when he should have been on the run and trying to reunite with his crew, evolved his CoO in a way that won't help him against Kaidou and Big Mom unless speed makes a difference, and had to be saved by Sanji and others otherwise they'd never have escaped

Dumb readers: omg Sanji is useless he sucks, so weak and did nothing!1 wah! Luffy did the most, he's better and was more useful! blahblahbalh

No, Sanji didnt stop Big mom, he saved her from starvation the cake didnt even knock her out or incapacitate her for a long enough time to help with anything.
Luffy and co would have destroyed the bigmom pirates as said by perospero himself

Spoiler: here

So I tend to believe that baking that cake to "save" the big mom pirates was quite unnecessay and dumb like Bege said himself why not at least poison it?

Spoiler

Its also this very cake that helped big mom recover and be able to catch up to the strawhats at the end of the arc and probably put Jimbei Aladin and the vinsmokes in mortal danger...
So spare me the "Sanji and the others baking the cake saved peoples lives and stopped big mom talk this is just very stupid...

 

[King Moe]

No, Sanji didnt stop Big mom, he saved her from starvation the cake didnt even knock her out or incapacitate her for a long enough time to help with anything.
Luffy and co would have destroyed the bigmom pirates as said by perospero himself

Spoiler: here

So I tend to believe that baking that cake to "save" the big mom pirates was quite unnecessay and dumb like Bege said himself why not at least poison it?

Spoiler

Its also this very cake that helped big mom recover and be able to catch up to the strawhats at the end of the arc and probably put Jimbei Aladin and the vinsmokes in mortal danger...
So spare me the "Sanji and the others baking the cake saved peoples lives and stopped big mom talk this is just very stupid...

So you kinda prove MJ3 on what he said about being "dumb" and not understanding what Sanji did which was the more logical and non-asspull salutation?

Lol I seen your posts around, your a true Sanji hater, so can't really take your as seriously as those with more fair criticism like Hannibal and such. Now to counter your "logical arguments" starting with:

1. Sanji didn't "stop" Big Mom, just help her with her "Starvation without knocking her out" and "Luffy and Co would have defeated Big Mom pirates".

First off, making the cake was very important as it did knock her out and you can see afterwards it been hours before she got up as Oda put a timeskip on few hours or so, so your wrong on it not putting her out for awhile. Though you can't expect her to be out forever and years, that's just stupid if you really thought it would last like that. You need to reread the chapters to see that as it certainly did help them out since she was chasing them all because of the cake. She wouldn't stop until she killed them all.

Next, your other comment truly shows you didn't know how bad it was for the Strawhats. No way in hell they would have defeated the Big Mom pirates on their own. Luffy already struggle with Cracker and needed Nami's Help to beat him and then had a struggle fighter even harder with Katakuri which seem like a big tie from how it looks. Luffy was both heavily exhausted in both fights and would need rest and time to do another fight. No way in hell he can continue to fight every last one of them. That shows when he face off with Big Mom's crew along with Nami and they both lost miserably. No way they would have won at all by themselves.

Even Brook and Chopper were no match at all as Brook lost to Big Mom with ease and then with Chopper lost to Perospero and beg for their lives before he turned them into candy. Jimbei even the one said that there is no way they can beat them all, so don't know how you got logic everyone can fight them all off and win. Especially since they still have a lot of strong fighters being Smoothie, Snack, Daifuku, Oven, Perospero, and other Big Mom crewmates and children we haven't even seen in a fight yet in what they can do.

If they were confident on taking all on them alone, Luffy will no doubt stay, but he was the one saying he will "come back and face her next time", so that shows more that him and the others aren't prepared to go all out in a fight with them all. So no, they can't defeat them one bit as they even lost Pedro and Pound in a fight with them and Vinsmokes were defeated early by the higher tier of Big Mom pirates and don't get me started on Capone's group as they haven't really show much offense than defense in the arc to prove they can help fight it out.

2. "Poison it"? Why do you guys feel that poison Big Mom would honestly defeat her? Have you not seen her eat? What she is? If anything, it would give her a VERY (Emphasizing, not yelling) minor stomach and worse make the cake terrible which will result in her staying angry and causing more mishap and destruction out of it. So yeah, having the cake as it is was necessary unless you want everyone to be kill more for trying to poison her and upsetting her too. Plus do you guys honestly want a Yonko to simply die of poison? Really? All that hype of how strong Yonko are and she died due to poison so easily. You all would have been upset on Oda on BS and false hyping her if she went out like that. So yeah, poison solution wouldn't work no matter how you slice it.

3. Oh? I am sorry. Did the Strawhats force them all to come back and help them out? Did Jimbei was force to help out by Luffy's order? Did the Vinsmokes came back by what Sanji's said? Yeah, you need to rereard the arc as your post is biased on trying to put blame on Sanji when it wasn't his fault hardly. If Sanji didn't bake the cake, you want know who would have died first? Strawhats as if I remember, Chopper was about to sacrifice himself and try to jump on Big Mom and Prometheus to drag them to the sea, Nami cried and beg him not to along with Carrot feeling helpless, Brook is shock as well and visible scared about it, and Jimbei even said "to be prepared to abandon ship" if worse come to shove.

Big Mom would have kill them and ship destroy thus making no way out for Sanji and Luffy in their situations. If Sanji never bake the cake, they would have die and you would be upset saying why Sanji didn't help in making the cake in the end. The cake did it's job and did hold her off, but still just because Big Mom is out for few hours, doesn't mean Big Mom crew won't stop hunting them. So they had to deal with them and thus Jimbei, his crew, and Germa all went back cause they knew this to help them out. Luffy try to force and order Jimbei to stay, but Jimbei didn't allow that at all. He choose to head back. Vinsmokes were saved by Sanji and Sanji told them he doesn't want to see them again and what they do? They came back to help as well.

THEY (Emphasizing, not yelling) choose to stay behind, no one force them and it's hardly the Strawhats fault especially Sanji. Cake did it's job, but you can't expect Big Mom to sleep forever, so eventuality she would wake up. Though I doubt Jimbei. his crew, and Germa are dead as they have ways on making escape if need too about it. Thinking they are dead then you don't know how Oda likes to troll with fandom like that.

So yeah in conclusion, if it wasn't for the cake, Big Mom would have kill many others being Strawhats first due to Perospero's lie and then go on to kill probably her own crew and people on the islands. Sanji didn't do it for them, his crew who needed help especially when Big Mom was about to destroy them with Prometheus. Oda has shown you can't beat her physical in this arc especially when Luffy went Gear 4TH and didn't even do damage onto her or Nami with Zeus against her. She is a damn tank and crazy powerful in the end, so them beating her in the end would be asspull and people would be upset on that cause it make her and the arc along with Yonkos in general as jokes.

Like it or not, Sanji did work in the arc with the cake and combat in fighting off and holding off opponents for his friends and allies. So like I said, best you go reread the arc to understand the whole concept in general and see meaning out of it or better yet, if you don't want to read the arc again, check out these Youtubers who did a whole review on the arc and made everyone understand it's true purpose and why it went the way it did. Look for Joy Boy's, Mr. Morj's, and Craftsdwarf's Youtube channels as they understood the arc and why it's much better than you realize.

 

[afromarco005]

So you kinda prove MJ3 on what he said about being "dumb" and not understanding what Sanji did which was the more logical and non-asspull salutation?

Lol I seen your posts around, your a true Sanji hater, so can't really take your as seriously as those with more fair criticism like Hannibal and such. Now to counter your "logical arguments" starting with:

1. Sanji didn't "stop" Big Mom, just help her with her "Starvation without knocking her out" and "Luffy and Co would have defeated Big Mom pirates".

First off, making the cake was very important as it did knock her out and you can see afterwards it been hours before she got up as Oda put a timeskip on few hours or so, so your wrong on it not putting her out for awhile. Though you can't expect her to be out forever and years, that's just stupid if you really thought it would last like that. You need to reread the chapters to see that as it certainly did help them out since she was chasing them all because of the cake. She wouldn't stop until she killed them all.

Next, your other comment truly shows you didn't know how bad it was for the Strawhats. No way in hell they would have defeated the Big Mom pirates on their own. Luffy already struggle with Cracker and needed Nami's Help to beat him and then had a struggle fighter even harder with Katakuri which seem like a big tie from how it looks. Luffy was both heavily exhausted in both fights and would need rest and time to do another fight. No way in hell he can continue to fight every last one of them. That shows when he face off with Big Mom's crew along with Nami and they both lost miserably. No way they would have won at all by themselves.

Even Brook and Chopper were no match at all as Brook lost to Big Mom with ease and then with Chopper lost to Perospero and beg for their lives before he turned them into candy. Jimbei even the one said that there is no way they can beat them all, so don't know how you got logic everyone can fight them all off and win. Especially since they still have a lot of strong fighters being Smoothie, Snack, Daifuku, Oven, Perospero, and other Big Mom crewmates and children we haven't even seen in a fight yet in what they can do.

If they were confident on taking all on them alone, Luffy will no doubt stay, but he was the one saying he will "come back and face her next time", so that shows more that him and the others aren't prepared to go all out in a fight with them all. So no, they can't defeat them one bit as they even lost Pedro and Pound in a fight with them and Vinsmokes were defeated early by the higher tier of Big Mom pirates and don't get me started on Capone's group as they haven't really show much offense than defense in the arc to prove they can help fight it out.

2. "Poison it"? Why do you guys feel that poison Big Mom would honestly defeat her? Have you not seen her eat? What she is? If anything, it would give her a VERY (Emphasizing, not yelling) minor stomach and worse make the cake terrible which will result in her staying angry and causing more mishap and destruction out of it. So yeah, having the cake as it is was necessary unless you want everyone to be kill more for trying to poison her and upsetting her too. Plus do you guys honestly want a Yonko to simply die of poison? Really? All that hype of how strong Yonko are and she died due to poison so easily. You all would have been upset on Oda on BS and false hyping her if she went out like that. So yeah, poison solution wouldn't work no matter how you slice it.

3. Oh? I am sorry. Did the Strawhats force them all to come back and help them out? Did Jimbei was force to help out by Luffy's order? Did the Vinsmokes came back by what Sanji's said? Yeah, you need to rereard the arc as your post is biased on trying to put blame on Sanji when it wasn't his fault hardly. If Sanji didn't bake the cake, you want know who would have died first? Strawhats as if I remember, Chopper was about to sacrifice himself and try to jump on Big Mom and Prometheus to drag them to the sea, Nami cried and beg him not to along with Carrot feeling helpless, Brook is shock as well and visible scared about it, and Jimbei even said "to be prepared to abandon ship" if worse come to shove.

Big Mom would have kill them and ship destroy thus making no way out for Sanji and Luffy in their situations. If Sanji never bake the cake, they would have die and you would be upset saying why Sanji didn't help in making the cake in the end. The cake did it's job and did hold her off, but still just because Big Mom is out for few hours, doesn't mean Big Mom crew won't stop hunting them. So they had to deal with them and thus Jimbei, his crew, and Germa all went back cause they knew this to help them out. Luffy try to force and order Jimbei to stay, but Jimbei didn't allow that at all. He choose to head back. Vinsmokes were saved by Sanji and Sanji told them he doesn't want to see them again and what they do? They came back to help as well.

THEY (Emphasizing, not yelling) choose to stay behind, no one force them and it's hardly the Strawhats fault especially Sanji. Cake did it's job, but you can't expect Big Mom to sleep forever, so eventuality she would wake up. Though I doubt Jimbei. his crew, and Germa are dead as they have ways on making escape if need too about it. Thinking they are dead then you don't know how Oda likes to troll with fandom like that.

So yeah in conclusion, if it wasn't for the cake, Big Mom would have kill many others being Strawhats first due to Perospero's lie and then go on to kill probably her own crew and people on the islands. Sanji didn't do it for them, his crew who needed help especially when Big Mom was about to destroy them with Prometheus. Oda has shown you can't beat her physical in this arc especially when Luffy went Gear 4TH and didn't even do damage onto her or Nami with Zeus against her. She is a damn tank and crazy powerful in the end, so them beating her in the end would be asspull and people would be upset on that cause it make her and the arc along with Yonkos in general as jokes.

Like it or not, Sanji did work in the arc with the cake and combat in fighting off and holding off opponents for his friends and allies. So like I said, best you go reread the arc to understand the whole concept in general and see meaning out of it or better yet, if you don't want to read the arc again, check out these Youtubers who did a whole review on the arc and made everyone understand it's true purpose and why it went the way it did. Look for Joy Boy's, Mr. Morj's, and Craftsdwarf's Youtube channels as they understood the arc and why it's much better than you realize.

First of all I am not a "Sanji hater" or "dumb" as you claim, this is just a fictional character and he is not beyond criticizm not every comments that arent praisinh the characters you love systematically make the person who said them "haters" deal with it.
On the contrary I love Sanji and he is amongst my favourite straw hats

On the other hand, are we even reading the same manga?
Please reread chapter 900 and 901 of one piece and tell me where exactly the "hours long time skip occured"

• Big mom lands in front of the cake in 900
• she enjoys the cake,gets all of her fat back and goes back to chasing the straw hats in 901
• and reaches Jinbe in 902

In other words The cake only helped her get back into shape like she was at the start of the arc.

On the big mom pirates being defeated, I showed you a pannel of Persopero going my way but maybe

Spoiler: you want another one

had Big mom died from poison (even if you dont like this scenario its still realistic,smart and pirate like thing to do Plus even after being in contact with magellan Luffy could still be poisoned so could bigmom) or from simple starvation (she was going to kill herself from exaustion), without the captain, the yonkou crew is over/disbanded just like what happened to whitebeard, its logical because the crew rests on the strenght and fear their captain instills in the hearts of their foes.

You say that luffy couldnt defear her at the time and I agree, but he wouldnt even have to fight just run away and defend for long enough (even chopper, carrot nami and brooke could do that, add luffy and jimbei and they are good to go) so that she starves and dropped on her own.

I know that in your questionnable "logic", sanji is a saint but be a little more objective, why do you think that luffy came to totland if not for Sanji? risked his life? fought 2 commanders? Why did so many people sacrificed themselves if not to rescue sanji? fishmen?
You not caring about the characters is different from them not being dead because of sanji. Think about it

 

[King Moe]

First of all I am not a "Sanji hater" or "dumb" as you claim, this is just a fictional character and he is not beyond criticizm not every comments that arent praisinh the characters you love systematically make the person who said them "haters" deal with it.
On the contrary I love Sanji and he is amongst my favourite straw hats

On the other hand, are we even reading the same manga?
Please reread chapter 900 and 901 of one piece and tell me where exactly the "hours long time skip occured"

• Big mom lands in front of the cake in 900
• she enjoys the cake,gets all of her fat back and goes back to chasing the straw hats in 901
• and reaches Jinbe in 902

In other words The cake only helped her get back into shape like she was at the start of the arc.

On the big mom pirates being defeated, I showed you a pannel of Persopero going my way but maybe

Spoiler: you want another one

had Big mom died from poison (even if you dont like this scenario its still realistic,smart and pirate like thing to do Plus even after being in contact with magellan Luffy could still be poisoned so could bigmom) or from simple starvation (she was going to kill herself from exaustion), without the captain, the yonkou crew is over/disbanded just like what happened to whitebeard, its logical because the crew rests on the strenght and fear their captain instills in the hearts of their foes.

You say that luffy couldnt defear her at the time and I agree, but he wouldnt even have to fight just run away and defend for long enough (even chopper, carrot nami and brooke could do that, add luffy and jimbei and they are good to go) so that she starves and dropped on her own.

I know that in your questionnable "logic", sanji is a saint but be a little more objective, why do you think that luffy came to totland if not for Sanji? risked his life? fought 2 commanders? Why did so many people sacrificed themselves if not to rescue sanji? fishmen?
You not caring about the characters is different from them not being dead because of sanji. Think about it

You kinda are especially how you make fun on Sanji in your posts and prove it more in the other topic about him not doing nothing, but make food for Kaido. If that's not biased or hater, Idk what your doing when talking about the character. If your not, then don't act like that. You can criticize. Never said you can't, but don't act like that out. Also didn't say you were dumb, but just saying with M3J said by proving his point on what you said. Just saying your giving into what he said in his post as why would you post to him like that? His fighting days are not over. Never were if your truly ignoring his clashes with Daifuku and Oven and think he is unable to fight off anyone that is pretty bad way of thinking things, no offense.

There were timeskip within the chapter after she eat it. You can tell as it cut to the scene and it was a few hours she we out and also Jimbei said it will take 3 hours to leave Totland fully before Big Mom ate the cake, so she was out for a few hours before Strawhats were about to leave the territory.

The cake fulfilled it's purpose and hold her out for ours down, but not forever. It was made to subside her, not make her sleep forever. Also again the poison won't work at all as Big Mom has a iron stomach and can eat anything and anyone. She is like Luffy in terms of hunger and iron stomach or probably more due to having Hunger Pains which Luffy does not have. Even if they went with it, it won't kill her. It will make her angry and kill them more and everyone else. Also again I doubt she will die from starvation or go out that easily as she was still fighting to the bitter end and causing trouble for the Strawhats even her slimmer form and almost kill them, so in the end Strawhats will still be in danger.

Plus, I doubt they would disbanded or forget their fury on Strawhats. You saw how they were when Luffy "defeated" Katakuri. If Big Mom dies because of them, they will still come after. Even without a captain, a crew can still go on just like Macro and Whitebeard pirates didn't really disbanded right away as they stay and went to confront Blackbeard to get their revenge before disbanded soon later. If this is same as that, Luffy and the others would be hunted down by them and it cause more trouble than it's worth especially during their journey as well. Yonko are no joke and won't go down easy especially their crew as it's like metaphor of a Hydra. "Even if you cut off the head, another regrows or the body keeps moving", so yeah, that won't solve their problems, it cause things to be worse.

As for stalling enough until Big Mom is dead, I doubt that too as she catch up to them quickly even in her state thanks to Promethus, so it wouldn't matter how far they run as she will chase them down for a long time before she can even keel over and cause more damage to them and the ship than it's worth.

They also came cause they have Road Poneglyph, so if I am not mistaken, even if Sanji never went there, they would have to head there for the Poneglyph, so regardless the same struggle situation would happen again and again. So yeah, it's not Sanji's fault especially since he was blackmail to stay, not because he likes to stay there. Also again, the others aren't dead, you keep saying they are, but they aren't. So nice try to continue to make Sanji the fall guy, but in reality they would have come here sooner or later to get the Road to get to Raftel, so majority of the situation would be the same. Plus Pedro died out of revenge for his fault on invading Big Mom's territory prior and he didn't have long left. Jimbei seal his fate himself as prior before coming there, he make alliance with Big Mom for Fishman Island protection and thus he was screw from the beginning like Pedro, so he went back to cancel it while trying to leave alive since Big Mom and her crew won't let that happen at all as no one leave the crew or alliance alive at all.

Same with Germa as Sanji told them he doesn't want to see them again, but came back on their own. Tell me in real life if you saved a person and told them not to head back, but they still do. Who's fault is that, yours or the person's? So by that logic, it's your fault then too despite you were no where near them or force them to do anything and told them not to. So yeah, can't put this really on anyone, but the character's themselves.

 

[M3J]

No, Sanji didnt stop Big mom, he saved her from starvation the cake didnt even knock her out or incapacitate her for a long enough time to help with anything.
Luffy and co would have destroyed the bigmom pirates as said by perospero himself

He did, and I don't understand how anyone can debate this. Big Mom was attacking the Sunny until Bege came with the cake that Sanji, Charlotte, and Pudding made. Once she smelled and saw the cake, she went straight after it, otherwise she'd have destroyed the Sunny. And as far as I know, she couldn't catch up to the ship after she ate the cake and was happy at how delicious it was. The cake wasn't meant to knock her out for long, but it did incapacitate her long enough that the Sunny could wait for Luffy and make its escape without coming across Big Mom. Feel free to prove otherwise.

Luffy couldn't have done a thing because he was already far too damaged to even help Sanji help them escape. A healthy Luffy most likely would have done well against the Big Mom pirates if they didn't have Big Mom or her commanders to help though, and hungry Luffy did prove this. Not sure where Perospero said this though.

So I tend to believe that baking that cake to "save" the big mom pirates was quite unnecessay and dumb like Bege said himself why not at least poison it?

He also saved his own crew, so it was not unnecessary or dumb. And Sanji's a honorable person, he's not the type to poison food. We learned this about Sanji when he was introduced, and it was reinforced in almost every arc. And let's not forget that Bege also ultimately let Sanji have his way after eating the cake.

Its also this very cake that helped big mom recover and be able to catch up to the strawhats at the end of the arc and probably put Jimbei Aladin and the vinsmokes in mortal danger...
So spare me the "Sanji and the others baking the cake saved peoples lives and stopped big mom talk this is just very stupid...

Big Mom going after the ship before Sanji and Bege arrived. Straw Hats on the Sunny saw no hope, even. Big Mom then left the ship alone once she spotted the cake and kept chasing it until she got to an island. Big Mom took quite a while eating the cake. Things were going on while she was eating. She was even out of it for a while. You also said the cake allowed Big Mom to catch up, but she never caught up.

Without the cake, the ship would have been destroyed, Jinbei and other Straw Hats dead, and Luffy would have been dead after getting out of the mirror world.

You can call it stupid all you want, it's your opinion, but you can't deny the fact that Sanji was one of the MVPs who saved the Straw Hats, as well as countless of others. Based on your post, it seems like you don't remember most of what happened.