The Straw Hats wouldn't even have participated in the Wedding if it were not for Sanji's decision.
Reiju said Big Mom actually doesn't care about Zeff when she told Sanji to run away and abandon her.
You make it sound like Kuma picked Zoro which is wrong. Zoro offered himself and prevented Sanji from doing so. The fact that he knocked Sanji out instead of fighting together with him means that he considers himself to be vastly superior to Sanji.
As for the bit at the baratie... That is not how things played out at all. Sanji was having an easy time with pearl until gin held zeff at gunpoint at which point sanji intentionally took pearl's attacks so as to avoid putting zeff in harm's way.
Doesn't change the fact that Sanji was introduced as a badass asskicker but someone who is dictated by his emotions.
Kidnapping a useful fruit user (chopper and Carrot)
Stealing the Poneglyphs (Brook and Pedro)
Taking control of a Yonkou's main weapon (Nami)
None of these can defeat a Sweet Commander and they still owned a Yonkou's Crew.
And Tamago is definitely part of the main crew, didn't you see how respected he is even by a Sweet Commander (Smoothie)[/QUOTE]
Of course not. Sanji ultimately went so that his loved ones wouldn't be hunted by big mom but... in the end none of it mattered. And if we count this as sanji doing something in the arc... this should actually take credit from him, he basically screwed over his crewmates over nothing.
Zoro considers himself stronger than sanji but that is irrelevant to how things played out against kuma. Zoro didn't even do that to fight kuma, he did it to avoid a fight with him and save luffy's life. Zoro's opinion of sanji's strength is not a factor here.
None of those are feats of strength... Imagine sanji, franky, brook, robin, chopper, ussop or nami against the likes of oven. Maybe all of them combined would win but individually they would be basically foderized. Nami would have the best chance of landing a decent hit post WCI arc considering she has zeus though. But that speaks specially poorly of sanji, franky and brook. The strawhats, and sooner rather than later, need to more or less match up to a yonko's main crew and so far only luffy is up there with zoro maybe being there. The rest simply have not shown anything that suggests they would be comparable to even the weakest yonko core crewmember.....
He didn't get his ass handed to him by Pearl or Gin. If I recall correctly, Sanji was forced to let Pearl hit him, otherwise Gin would have killed Zeff. And when Sanji fought Gin, he was already damaged from his fight against Pearl.
None of those are feats of strength... Imagine sanji, franky, brook, robin, chopper, ussop or nami against the likes of oven. Maybe all of them combined would win but individually they would be basically foderized. Nami would have the best chance of landing a decent hit post WCI arc considering she has zeus though. But that speaks specially poorly of sanji, franky and brook. The strawhats, and sooner rather than later, need to more or less match up to a yonko's main crew and so far only luffy is up there with zoro maybe being there. The rest simply have not shown anything that suggests they would be comparable to even the weakest yonko core crewmember.....
I'm not really sure why you think Oven is weak tbh. Dude seems up there as Yonko commanders go. I also don't know why you seem to be counting Nami's power up and forgetting Sanji's raid suit.
Also, no matter how weak you think Brook is, he's the only guy who could boast having called Big Mom 'young lady', he pretty much gets a pass for life as far as I'm concerned
I'm not really sure why you think Oven is weak tbh. Dude seems up there as Yonko commanders go. I also don't know why you seem to be counting Nami's power up and forgetting Sanji's raid suit.
Also, no matter how weak you think Brook is, he's the only guy who could boast having called Big Mom 'young lady', he pretty much gets a pass for life as far as I'm concerned
I do not think oven is weak. The part you quoted does not even mention oven for that matter. Oven as far as I can tell is extraordinarily strong, he simply is probably weaker than the sweet commanders whom I am arguing should be what sanji should match up to. In that regard, if luffy can defeat the strongest of the sweet commanders then sanji should at worst be comparable to the people right beneath the sweet commanders. And yet by any logic it does not seem like sanji could defeat a single core crewmember of big mom's crew, let alone cracker, the weakest sweet commander.
I do not think oven is weak. The part you quoted does not even mention oven for that matter. Oven as far as I can tell is extraordinarily strong, he simply is probably weaker than the sweet commanders whom I am arguing should be what sanji should match up to. In that regard, if luffy can defeat the strongest of the sweet commanders then sanji should at worst be comparable to the people right beneath the sweet commanders. And yet by any logic it does not seem like sanji could defeat a single core crewmember of big mom's crew, let alone cracker, the weakest sweet commander.
Sanji now as a character has been destroyed by the latest events, little to say.
The flashback with the Vnsomke what was it for? What does that happen to us with Sanji?
Being a failure or being abused by the family are not characteristics of the Sanji we have known in all these years.
If they do not weigh on the character, how do they get involved?
Sanji has never been so good and kind (even as a child, in the flashback of the Baratie). And Sanji threw away the leftover food (wasting it), while in the flashback of the Germa we see him as he ate everything in prison.
The flashback with the Germa seems almost a filler in the history of Sanji, with quite questionable choices about his past ... We had to introduce the Vinsmoke, so Oda stuck them to Sanji (with bad results).
The flashback of the Baratie was perfect and those few things that did not know Sanji (respect for women, etc ...) could very well be shown with mini-flashbacks, or with alternative choices more consistent and interesting (because the Germa sucks , but a lot).
In fact, now the character of Sanji is exactly the same as before.
The flashback did not add anything, nor its vicissitudes to WCI ....
At most you could think that the experience Pudding had taught him that not all the beautiful girls are reliable, but coincidentally Pudding was yet another poor girl and misunderstood .....
We didn't know them, how could we. Sanji's backstory had a huge plothole in it though. How did a child his age become a cook on ship and where are his parents? This is different from Zoro who also has no known parents but did live in a stable environment.
Also Sanji was the first and only Straw Hat that immediately went after Robin in Water 7, indicating he can empathize with her because he went through a similiar experience.
Sanji has never been so good and kind (even as a child, in the flashback of the Baratie). And Sanji threw away the leftover food (wasting it), while in the flashback of the Germa we see him as he ate everything in prison.
You cite the baratie arc, in which Sanji gives food to dangerous starved pirates. Gin murdered someone before their eyes and Sanji still gave him food.
About the child stuff: Of course if you are in prison you eat anything. That does not mean that Royal Germa Sanji did not waste food, he probably did every time.
The flashback with the Germa seems almost a filler in the history of Sanji, with quite questionable choices about his past ... We had to introduce the Vinsmoke, so Oda stuck them to Sanji (with bad results).
The flashback of the Baratie was perfect and those few things that did not know Sanji (respect for women, etc ...) could very well be shown with mini-flashbacks, or with alternative choices more consistent and interesting (because the Germa sucks , but a lot).
In fact, now the character of Sanji is exactly the same as before.
The flashback did not add anything, nor its vicissitudes to WCI ....
I don't think Oda created the Vinsmokes first. They don't have much impact on the overall story after WCI. Of course we can only make guesses about Oda's design procces, but I think if you want to base your arguments on anything the best way is to look behind the references and themes/tropes used and how they fit together.
I think it quite possible started with Oda wanting to do a Wedding massacre because... you know there have been a lot of bloody weedings in pop cultur lately.
He also wanted to do this wedding in the Big Mom arc because Big Mom is a woman and weddings are kind of a feminine thing in pop culture. He also wanted to involve the Straw Hats. Enter Sanji, because which Straw Hat, aside from him would marry? Only then, I think Germa was created as a contrast to Sanji because Sanji is french (the beautiful things, Love), while Germa is german (War). But how can he be french if his family is german? Well France and Germany are Sister countries that both descend from Charlemagne.
There is also the "Damsel in distress" trope with the twist that Sanji is the damsel.
This is my take on the early design process behind WCI, of course it is only a guess, but better than to just shout how bad things are without giving arguments.
Sanji is of course the same as before but way better fleshed out. His behavior has been given reasons. It could definitely not have been done in mini flashbacks, I mean people on this forum already have a hard time understanding the gender role/expectations theme after an entire arc. On reddit it's even worse.
And of course the Germa sucked they are Nazis. Nazis are not cool. Everyone that had hoped for them to be cool after we saw their introduction has a really messed up taste.
We didn't know them, how could we. Sanji's backstory had a huge plothole in it though. How did a child his age become a cook on ship and where are his parents?
A bit of mystery is always useful, especially if it is not necessary. In the end Sanji does not count on which hole he came out of, but how he became what he is.
Also Sanji was the first and only Straw Hat that immediately went after Robin in Water 7, indicating he can empathize with her because he went through a similiar experience.
You cite the baratie arc, in which Sanji gives food to dangerous starved pirates. Gin murdered someone before their eyes and Sanji still gave him food.
In fact, it is this piece that you say the big, huge problem that this new flashback creates to the figure of Sanji and amazes me that few seem to notice it.
The main point is this: Sanji does not feed Gin driven by pure and simple goodness. It is just one of the cornerstones of the Barite mini arc to show how Sanji and Zeff, as cooks who have experienced a highly traumatic experience of suffering hunger until they almost died, have decided to adopt a philosophy that no one else, in their presence, should suffer their own fate. In this philosophy, pure and simple goodness has nothing to do with it. It is not that they go to the charity every week, if someone comes and is hungry and does not have the money they feed him the same because they know what it feels like, that's all. So much so that the Baratie Sanji says it clearly that he first feeds people, but then he can also kill her, the important thing is that he does not die of hunger in front of him (and Carne also points out that it seems a contradiction, save someone if however the final intent is to kill her). The whole point of the Baratie is to make sure that there is a restaurant in the middle of the sea so if the ships remain without food there are them.
Instead of insisting on how good and kind Sanji is, preparing the food for his mother and feeding the mice as Cinderella, he totally lost sight of what was completely another point. We have gone from "the character has experienced a highly traumatic experience that made him develop his particular philosophy in regards to his being a cook "a" the character is good because the mother was good and allowed him to keep his emotions and therefore he does good things ".
Lol Oda does an Arc where a main character doesn't follow typical shonen patterns but gets his character fleshed out consistently, with all his strenght and weaknesses explained like never before.
Everything that could be deepened by Sanji (the love of cooking, his sense of sacrifice, his dream, his relationship with women) was either trivialized (see the story of the poor mother dying) or taken up by Zeff / from random things, so not inherent in the flashback itself.
All the flashback, however, is a concentrate of "poor Sanji who was bullied by his brothers, closed by his father, he who is so good, etc. etc., which explains absolutely nothing (since it has nothing to do with the character of Sanji we have seen for 80 volumes).
To PH, if Nami had not insisted (showing her a witty spirit) the Sanji children would never have saved them (precisely because it was not their job and they had other things to do). And we talk about innocent children subjected to experiments for years, destined to die (and Sanji is not stupid, he knew).
I would say an attitude quite in contrast with what Oda wants to show us in this arc ..
A bit of mystery is always useful, especially if it is not necessary. In the end Sanji does not count on which hole he came out of, but how he became what he is.
?????? Don't really understand your sentence here.
Here is the point.
In fact, it is this piece that you say the big, huge problem that this new flashback creates to the figure of Sanji and amazes me that few seem to notice it.
The main point is this: Sanji does not feed Gin driven by pure and simple goodness. It is just one of the cornerstones of the Barite mini arc to show how Sanji and Zeff, as cooks who have experienced a highly traumatic experience of suffering hunger until they almost died, have decided to adopt a philosophy that no one else, in their presence, should suffer their own fate. In this philosophy, pure and simple goodness has nothing to do with it. It is not that they go to the charity every week, if someone comes and is hungry and does not have the money they feed him the same because they know what it feels like, that's all. So much so that the Baratie Sanji says it clearly that he first feeds people, but then he can also kill her, the important thing is that he does not die of hunger in front of him (and Carne also points out that it seems a contradiction, save someone if however the final intent is to kill her). The whole point of the Baratie is to make sure that there is a restaurant in the middle of the sea so if the ships remain without food there are them.
Instead of insisting on how good and kind Sanji is, preparing the food for his mother and feeding the mice as Cinderella, he totally lost sight of what was completely another point. We have gone from "the character has experienced a highly traumatic experience that made him develop his particular philosophy in regards to his being a cook "a" the character is good because the mother was good and allowed him to keep his emotions and therefore he does good things ".
You don't develope such a personality if you are not kind to begin with. A selfish person that experienced such trauma would make sure to never starve again himself, possibly going so far as to deny food from others (Big Mom). Btw Big Mom did starve during her flashback and she didn't became Sanji, she burned down a village instead.
His mother certainly has nothing to do with his cook's philosophy which he indeed gained from the incident with Zeff. And neither has the Rat cooking. Oda wanted to show why Sanji wanted to become a cook, which was before Zeff. And Oda wanted to show that Sanji is an atypical boy. While his brothers were fighting and doing sports (masculine activities) Sanji was playing cook feeding cute animals (feminine activities).
No, the flashback does not, this is the problem
Everything that could be deepened by Sanji (the love of cooking, his sense of sacrifice, his dream, his relationship with women) was either trivialized (see the story of the poor mother dying) or taken up by Zeff / from random things, so not inherent in the flashback itself.
All the flashback, however, is a concentrate of "poor Sanji who was bullied by his brothers, closed by his father, he who is so good, etc. etc., which explains absolutely nothing (since it has nothing to do with the character of Sanji we have seen for 80 volumes).
The flashback is just one part one the Sanji exposition this arc and you make it sound like it is the only.
Sanji had his Love for cooking before Zeff, and it was not explained.
His sense of sacrifice has nothing to do with this, and Sanji wasn't sacrificing himself when he turned himself in with Bege. He wanted to settle things personally, and then return.
His relationship with women was precisely justified due to this flashback. Before, many people said "Sanji is a sexist" or "Sanji is homophobic". Now we know:
Sanji grew up in a country that is made up of 90% men that do physical activites like fighting all day. His father is obsessed with dominating North Blue, and wants his sons to become the perfect soldiers.
For that, he is drove his own wife into her death. It is not just a story of a poor mother dying. "My body, my choice" is like THE slogan of the female empowerment movement. What Judge did to her was absolutely horrible. That's not trivia, it is totally in line with this arc.
So Sanji could never live up to his father's expectations, and that left a huge crack in him. It was Zeff who gave Sanji a new concept of Masculinity (The Gentleman Concept).
So now we also understand why Sanji was so "transphobic" on Kamabakka (which he really wasn't vs Mr 2). Sanji has issues with his masculinity and so he felt like Kuma trolled him hard, especially since Sanji tried to stand up against him earlier.
This is also the reason why Sanji has constant conflict with Zoro. Zoro is a follower of Bushido. He lives for the Sword (like a soldier would also do) and thinks woman are weak in general. Physical strenght is of great importance to him, while Sanji is a cook first and foremost. Btw the initial design for Yonji was an exact Sanji twin with a sword
Since when ?
To PH, if Nami had not insisted (showing her a witty spirit) the Sanji children would never have saved them (precisely because it was not their job and they had other things to do). And we talk about innocent children subjected to experiments for years, destined to die (and Sanji is not stupid, he knew).
I would say an attitude quite in contrast with what Oda wants to show us in this arc ..
A selfish person that experienced such trauma would make sure to never starve again himself, possibly going so far as to deny food from others (Big Mom). Btw Big Mom did starve during her flashback and she didn't became Sanji, she burned down a village instead.
This was the point in the mini arc of the Baratie.
To show that Sanji's philosophy of feeding garments was born precisely from this trauma. Point, enough, end. It has nothing to do with goodness, Sanji is not a saint who goes to the table of the poor, if he sees someone hungry he saves him because he knows what he feels on his skin.
The example of Big Mom has nothing to do with it:
1) Big Mom has no memories of what happened to Elbaf and his fast was much less felt.
2) Big mom did not have a mentor like Zeff.
His mother certainly has nothing to do with his cook's philosophy which he indeed gained from the incident with Zeff. And neither has the Rat cooking. Oda wanted to show why Sanji wanted to become a cook, which was before Zeff. And Oda wanted to show that Sanji is an atypical boy. While his brothers were fighting and doing sports (masculine activities) Sanji was playing cook feeding cute animals (feminine activities).
Sanji grew up in a country that is made up of 90% men that do physical activites like fighting all day. His father is obsessed with dominating North Blue, and wants his sons to become the perfect soldiers.
For that, he is drove his own wife into her death. It is not just a story of a poor mother dying. "My body, my choice" is like THE slogan of the female empowerment movement. What Judge did to her was absolutely horrible. That's not trivia, it is totally in line with this arc.
So Sanji could never live up to his father's expectations, and that left a huge crack in him. It was Zeff who gave Sanji a new concept of Masculinity (The Gentleman Concept).
- Brothers bullies who beat poor Sanji without him reacting / being shown in some way to hate them (he for the family feels indifference, but has never been shown any different reaction apart from then do not want to see them killed, do not even think a moment to the question, he has to save them and that's it a moment of hesitation, that would have been human)
- Sanji feeding the Cinderella-style mice (seriously, was that scene necessary?)
- Sanji little match girl with the feelings that brings food to the sick mother who obviously must remark how good and kind her son is
- Reiju that every two for three must remind us how good Sanji is while they are bad, even there is a whole dialogue that she says she was saved from her goodness.
It seems to me that Oda wanted to insist on the goodness of Sanji without a real justification (indeed, the justification is that the mother has been drinking the potion XD) and the thing has become sickening.
Also in PH we have Sanji who helps Kin'emon, but there was no place at all for the emphasis on "Sanji is good" in fact, it seemed to help him for a point of principle because he did not like Kinemon's behavior and therefore had to make him change his mind Among other things to me Sanji was infinitely more interested in PH, in spite of all that seem to "degrade" just because it has not had a fight.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
His relationship with women was precisely justified due to this flashback. Before, many people said "Sanji is a sexist" or "Sanji is homophobic". Now we know:
This is also the reason why Sanji has constant conflict with Zoro. Zoro is a follower of Bushido. He lives for the Sword (like a soldier would also do) and thinks woman are weak in general. Physical strenght is of great importance to him, while Sanji is a cook first and foremost. Btw the initial design for Yonji was an exact Sanji twin with a sword
@Ice King : are you complaining about Sanji becoming a character with more layers, while still somehow trying to say this arc didn't add anything to his character?
@Ice King : are you complaining about Sanji becoming a character with more layers, while still somehow trying to say this arc didn't add anything to his character?
- A trivial backstory, copied, that has nothing to do with his character
- A superficiality in the themes that are really important for the character
- A family of silly characters
- Scenes with their crew members copied from those of other characters and above all with zero emotional impact
In short, a failure.
And unfortunately despite itself Sanji has not changed (since the evolution was useless and nothing) I will not be able to look at it with the same eyes because all the things I listed above have happened and now they are part of what the character is.
- A trivial backstory, copied, that has nothing to do with his character
- A superficiality in the themes that are really important for the character
- A family of silly characters
- Scenes with their crew members copied from those of other characters and above all with zero emotional impact
In short, a failure.
And unfortunately despite itself Sanji has not changed (since the evolution was useless and nothing) I will not be able to look at it with the same eyes because all the things I listed above have happened and now they are part of what the character is.
Then your clearly looking at another angle and didn't understand the true purpose of the arc then if you really think all was for nothing for Sanji's side honestly.
Oda isn't one to make arcs for no meaning or purposely out of it. Pretty sure Sanji's character will grow out of it if anything. Doesn't necessarily need to change other traits to be something or someone else.
Then your clearly looking at another angle and didn't understand the true purpose of the arc then if you really think all was for nothing for Sanji's side honestly.
For the last time, this Vinsmoke thing, what did you add to Sanji?
What is different than before?
Did you feel the need?
It is not looking at the other corner, it is looking at the facts.
I repeat:
Sanji does not feed Gin driven by pure and simple goodness. It is just one of the cornerstones of the Barite mini arc to show how Sanji and Zeff, as cooks who have experienced a highly traumatic experience of suffering hunger until they almost died, have decided to adopt a philosophy that no one else, in their presence, should suffer their own fate. In this philosophy, pure and simple goodness has nothing to do with it. It is not that they go to the charity every week, if someone comes and is hungry and does not have the money they feed him the same because they know what it feels like, that's all. So much so that the Baratie Sanji says it clearly that he first feeds people, but then he can also kill her, the important thing is that he does not die of hunger in front of him (and Carne also points out that it seems a contradiction, save someone if however the final intent is to kill her). The whole point of the Baratie is to make sure that there is a restaurant in the middle of the sea so if the ships remain without food there are them.
Instead of insisting on how good and kind Sanji is, preparing the food for his mother and feeding the mice as Cinderella, he totally lost sight of what was completely another point. We have gone from "the character has experienced a highly traumatic experience that made him develop his particular philosophy in regards to his being a cook "a" the character is good because the mother was good and allowed him to keep his emotions and therefore he does good things ".
Oda took the character of Sanji and totally distorted him, because it has nothing to do with the Sanji character who has been shown for 80 volumes. Oda does not even try to connect points to make the story consistent, sticks a sad story to Sanji to move the readers and thinks that's enough, and the result is that you read the flashback wondering what it has to do with the character of Sanji .
Sanji in the Vinsmoke flashback has been abused for years by his father and brothers, his mother (the only one who treated him decently) is dead, his sister still preferred to protect herself that defend him, he was imprisoned for a lot of time. .. and this thing has no grievance about Sanji psychology.
Indeed, when Sanji refers to the North Blue for the first time, he says it with all the tranquility of this world, as if it were nothing but a place where your family treated you to fish in the face for years. And Sanji has never shown any particular concern-information about murderers, scientists and miscellaneous stuff.
The interesting thing is that Oda does not seem to be able to make the character of Sanji credible even when it was invented, since first makes Sanji shake in front of the prospect of meeting the brothers ... and then talk to them and the he finds it to be as if nothing had happened.
And this is your problem, you claim to look at the facts but blatantly ignore others. How did Sanji cross the Red Line from North to East Blue? Why did he work on a passenger ship as a kitchen boy and where are his parents?
Answer me, what is the Sanji Baratie with the one seen at WCI?
Nothing because the first is not driven by goodness, but by the awareness of what hunger is. His philosophy comes from that.
The Sanji of WCI instead acts because it is good, so, so much so that Oda has also had to invent the bad family.
On a side note, the Baratie is one of my favorite arcs even beyond the question of Sanji, I remember it almost by heart, do not recommend to reread that my comparison with this saga could become even more ruthless XD
How did Sanji cross the Red Line from North to East Blue? Why did he work on a passenger ship as a kitchen boy and where are his parents?
Seriously ? It was not important to know, since nobody and I say nobody in 19 years and 80 volumes has never asked this question.
For his parents, again, seriously?
Now is it necessary to know life, death, and miracle of all, including parents?
We do not know who are the parents of Zoro, neither those of Brook, nor those of Franky, nor those of Chopper, nor those of Nami, nor the father of Robin. So they are all incomplete character for you.
In Dragon Ball, I do not know who the Crillin, Tamcha, Tenshinan, Muten etc. attachments are.
In Naruto we do not know who Lee's parents are.
As you can see therefore, it is not necessary to know everything, because a character does not settle according to its family or it's birth.
As I said a bit of mystery is needed and if you must add something must be something useful or constructive.
How had Sanji made it to the East Blue? Boh was important? I doubt that anyone has pontificated or if asked to do so .....
The origin of All Blue's dream would also be interesting, but it is bound in a vignette as well as Sanji's interest in the kitchen.
Nothing was known of Sanji pre Zeff's past because Sanjji's character as we know him is born with Zeff and develop with him.
Germa's flashback and retcon on Sanji's past suck because they do not explain NOTHING, they do not fit with the character, and above all they are badly told.
Which would not be a problem if they were tied to a new character like Rebecca, but not for Sanji.
Germa's flashback and retcon on Sanji's past suck because they do not explain NOTHING, they do not fit with the character, and above all they are badly told.
This is very accurate. Out of all the flashbacks in the story the two I dislike the most are Luffy's (the three brothers stuff) and Sanji's (the Germa 66 one). I find simple ideas much better, honestly. Was there really such a need to overcomplicate Sanji's past? He went through a freaking 70-day starvation in the middle of nowhere. And his savior ate his freaking leg to survive. This is fucked up but it does bring you to tears. While this newly introduced past simply pales in comparison.
I also like Usopp's flashback very much. Imagine if one day it will be revealed that the reason his mom died was because she was bitten by an infectious genetically modified bug. And the biologist who invented the bug was no other than Heracles!
If ever you keep ignoring my messages,
Answer me, what is the Sanji Baratie with the one seen at WCI?
Nothing because the first is not driven by goodness, but by the awareness of what hunger is. His philosophy comes from that.
The Sanji of WCI instead acts because it is good, so, so much so that Oda has also had to invent the bad family.
On a side note, the Baratie is one of my favorite arcs even beyond the question of Sanji, I remember it almost by heart, do not recommend to reread that my comparison with this saga could become even more ruthless XD
I don't respond to everything because the posts get too long and your posts consists of too many "But How???"- oneliners that have already been answered and you disagree with these answers anyways. No point talking against a brick wall. You have your concept of Sanji, which doesn't matter much because Oda writes the manga and he deciced WCI was neccesary wether you like it or not.
Seriously ? It was not important to know, since nobody and I say nobody in 19 years and 80 volumes has never asked this question.
For his parents, again, seriously?
Now is it necessary to know life, death, and miracle of all, including parents?
We do not know who are the parents of Zoro, neither those of Brook, nor those of Franky, nor those of Chopper, nor those of Nami, nor the father of Robin. So they are all incomplete personagig for you.
In Dragon Ball, I do not know who the Crillin, Tamcha, Tenshinan, Muten etc. attachments are.
In Naruto we do not know who Lee's parents are.
As you can see therefore, it is not necessary to know everything, because a character does not settle according to its family or it's birth.
As I said a bit of mystery is needed and if you must add something must be something useful or constructive.
How had Sanji made it to the East Blue? Boh was important? I doubt that anyone has pontificated or if asked to do so .....
The origin of All Blue's dream would also be interesting, but it is bound in a vignette as well as Sanji's interest in the kitchen.
Nothing was known of Sanji pre Zeff's past because Sanjji's character as we know him is born with Zeff and develop with him.
Germa's flashback and retcon on Sanji's past suck because they do not explain NOTHING, they do not fit with the character, and above all they are badly told.
Which would not be a problem if they were tied to a new character like Rebecca, but not for Sanji.
Plenty of people have asked this question before because it is normally not possible to cross from North to East Blue. Would have been a plothole otherwise.
It doesn't matter if you think something is neccesary. Oda deemed it neccesary. There is no end of One Piece without this arc. If you are talking about necessity, you can talk about small things like "Was it really necessary for Robin to squeeze Franky's balls?". But you cannot talk about the necessety of entire story arcs in an unfinished story that is not your own.
There is no need to explain about any of Zoro's, Brook's, etc parents because no one of them was scheduled to marry a daughter of Big Mom. Oda invented a scenario that had the Straw Hats visit one of Mama's Tea Parties and he couldn't have created this scenario without creating a family for Sanji.
Unlike with Sanji, there also is no plothole with the others. Zoro grew up in a stable environment. He had his village, his dojo, overall peaceful environment. Brook has no backstory regarding his pre-pirate past, but given his age his parents should be dead or at least more dead than him. Many people suspect a secret Brook backstory though because he said hat before becoming a pirate he was in the military of some country.
Nami was abandonded by her real parents as a baby and Franky was likely too young as well. In the cases of Chopper and Robin we know their stories of becoming orphans.
Bringing up Dragon Ball as a comparison is bad because I think you can count the characters with proper backstories with your fingers... of one hand. Like really, Dragon Ball...
In Naruto we do not know Lee's parents but almost everyone else's. Genealogy is like one of the main aspects of Naruto.
The Germa flashback is also certainly not a retcon. Do you know what a retcon is? It is when new information contradicts other, previously released information. That does not apply to WCI arc. I know you are going to say otherwise, reciting Baratie arc again, but nothing you said is a true contradiction so you are wrong anyways.
I don't respond to everything because the posts get too long and your posts consists of too many "But How???"- oneliners that have already been answered and you disagree with these answers anyways. No point talking against a brick wall. You have your concept of Sanji, which doesn't matter much because Oda writes the manga and he deciced WCI was neccesary wether you like it or not.
It is not that if Oda decides then it must be good for everyone. There is the right to criticize.
And there are still no answers, since you ignore or do not answer.
The facts are these: WCI was not anecessary and the person from Sanji did not add anything.
Take the Sanji of Dressrosa and the post WCI. What is the difference ? None. Indeed the only difference is that now we know that he had a shitty family. And ......... so?
What affects the character? No, really, how?
So it was a useless arc
Plenty of people have asked this question before because it is normally not possible to cross from North to East Blue. Would have been a plothole otherwise.
Seriously ? I doubt it and how can it be considered important?
Repeated, the mystery serves, especially if it is not related to the character.
It does not matter how Sanji came from North Blue to East Blue. What matters is his relationship with Zeff, the fast that makes him aware of the importance of food.
This counts, this makes the character what it is.
The fact that Sanji was born in another sea is a seizendary dictation that does not affect the character itself
About Franky we know that he was born in the South Blue and that he is the son of pirates. Does this affect the character
? No, it's a bit more detail, but Oda could also say that he was interested in W7. What counts for Franky is his relationship with Tom.
Does Brook want to know anything about his 30 years before Rumbar? No, because the character is based on Rumbar and Loovoon.
There is no need to explain about any of Zoro's, Brook's, etc parents because no one of them was scheduled to marry a daughter of Big Mom. Oda invented a scenario that had the Straw Hats visit one of Mama's Tea Parties and he couldn't have created this scenario without creating a family for Sanji.
You could do it without this Vinsmoke antics that did not add NOTHING to Sanji if not humiliations and swipes from Enies Lobby.
Unlike with Sanji, there also is no plothole with the others. Zoro grew up in a stable environment. He had his village, his dojo, overall peaceful environment.
Sanji also had it. He was a kid who worked on a ship, period. This was necessary to know.
If you consider plothole the fact that it was born in another sea, how ever has never been seen in 80 volumes and 19 years?
Come on, tell me .....
Brook has no backstory regarding his pre-pirate past, but given his age his parents should be dead or at least more dead than him. Many people suspect a secret Brook backstory though because he said hat before becoming a pirate he was in the military of some country.
Nami was abandonded by her real parents as a baby and Franky was likely too young as well. In the cases of Chopper and Robin we know their stories of becoming orphans.
Honestly, if Oda really had to do a retcon it made more sense with Brook than you know nothing about and whose past offers much more space than a Sanji.
For Nami if I really reason like that for Sanji, also applies to Nami. Who tells you that maybe his real parents were king who lost her at sea?
And tell me what would you add to the character? Ditto for Franky, put that it turns out that his father is Kaido, to say ....
Bringing up Dragon Ball as a comparison is bad because I think you can count the characters with proper backstories with your fingers... of one hand. Like really, Dragon Ball...
What then retcon is a narrative device in which events and situations described previously are modified, or their meaning, to adapt them to new narrative developments or to correct pre-existing violations of continuity.
Now he is the prince of a nation of murderers-scientists-clones.
Sanji cooked for everyone because he had tried on his skin what he was fasting, but he could show himself cynical and hard.
Sanji cooks all because it is good and gentle, a little angel fallen on the earth, so good as to save his family of stinking that has humiliated him for life.
Sanji before Zeff was an extremely aggressive child. He was the one who, instead of hiding, took the knife to kill the pirates, and then he wanted to kill Zeff too, to steal his food.
Now kid Sanji is the poor one so it is better to show vignettes in which he is beaten by his brothers and can not react.
Sanji is one who spends his time sacrificing for others, you have a family that relies on having disposable fighters who act as human shields, but a scene where Jajji tells Sanji that since he's worthless, Is his purpose in life to stand before his brothers and protect them so they survive? No, it's better to show Sanji being attacked by a dog while he brings food to his mother, that's fundamental to his characterization.
Opposition between Zeff, who gave a leg for Sanji to realize his dream, compared to Jajji? Not even, Jajji never know the dream of Sanji, it's not that all the manga is based on the realization of their dreams, eh.
This is very accurate. Out of all the flashbacks in the story the two I dislike the most are Luffy's (the three brothers stuff) and Sanji's (the Germa 66 one). I find simple ideas much better, honestly. Was there really such a need to overcomplicate Sanji's past? He went through a freaking 70-day starvation in the middle of nowhere. And his savior ate his freaking leg to survive. This is fucked up but it does bring you to tears. While this newly introduced past simply pales in comparison.
I also like Usopp's flashback very much. Imagine if one day it will be revealed that the reason his mom died was because she was bitten by an infectious genetically modified bug. And the biologist who invented the bug was no other than Heracles!
Yeah Krillin worked as a character.... untill he disappaered from relevance after the Cell saga, which is still better than almost everyone else that became irrelevant even before Namek (Tien, Yamcha, Chao Zu, etc...). If One Piece would be Dragon Ball, anyone but the original three - heck even that is a stretch -anyone but Luffy would be irrelevant. Zoro's only purpose would be a jobber to hype up Luffy's fight. If you want an example of something pointless, what about Gohan at the end of Dragon Ball? What did the Z sword add to the story? Pls don't answer, this is a One Piece Forum, just think about. Is Dragon Ball, a Manga that constructed a light weight story around fights, really comparable to an epic Tale like One Piece? That's like comparing 50 Shades of Grey to Lord of the Rings.
I don't want to comment all of the rest. To many Spacebars as if you purposely bloat up your posts. You keep asking what this arc added to Sanji's character. I know more than enough that you disagree with any answer I have given you. I just wanted to point out that your argumentation has reached a dead end. You keep saying it is a retcon, which it is not, by insisting on nitpicky "facts" like Sanji's behavior in the Flashback. Really, young kids can shift from super friendly to aggressive quite fast, especially if they are educated that violence is an answer (which Sanji was).
A Retcon would be if Sanji's birth location was changed to South Blue, or if he had never any motivation to become a cook and find All Blue before Zeff.
You ignore the Blue crossing Plothole by saying that it never came up in 80 volumes, but if you really want an in-universe answer to that, I'll give you one: The Straw Hats, in all their 80 volume long journey, have actually been together for only a couple of months at max. They didn't ask Robin, their former enemy that is wanted since the age of 8, after her backstory either. They have crazy adventures together that keep their thoughts occupied with the present.
