Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

Who will be Sanji's main opponent during the Raid on Onigashima?


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That's not quite the same thing. It will always be credited to his skill and strength. Can't throw a Swordslash in the air unless you have both the strength to do so and the technique. Only thing a better quality blade offers to the Swordsman is a Blade that is less likely to break. The rest is all down to:
  • Skill
Which takes years to develop.

The RS isn't skill. Invisibility is not a skill.
Yeah but the suit is like Sanji getting new shoes, you're choosing not to see it from that perceptive as well.
Sanjis skills is in his kicks. No doubt he’s learnt okama kempo and he’s fully reluctant to use it. I refrain from making this a discussion point but ivankov deffo showed him a thing or two 🌚
But yeah everyone has new weapons upgrades and shit.
 
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M3J

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Mostly I see it as Defense at best. Speed does help up going to far away places in shorter time for sure, but in fighting, it's not good to use since it's not 'stable' to change directions in distances like that. Sanji will still use his own speed and power in head-on fight with someone than blinding using accelerators to head to a straightforward path when knowing the opponent can simply move out of the way.

That what I mean too as it's more for catching to somewhere or finding a place to take off his RS without other knowing as well the invisibility helps too. So still more so his power and speed are still his own especially in fights.
What's the point of donning the suit if he won't use its full capabilities though, like enhanced speed and power as result?
 

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Yeah but the suit is like Sanji getting new shoes,
Getting new shoes or new replacement as you mean by context means you're replacing an old thing you had with the same thing, but new. If the suit is like Sanji getting new shoes, then the supposed new shoe shouldn't do anything the old shoe didn't, likewise, the new suit shouldn't do anything the old suit didn't do.

Sanji never had a Raid Suit before, so it can't be compared to getting new shoes like replacement for something that has gotten old and worn out. He's gotten something entirely different.

Getting the Raid Suit cannot be compared to getting new shoes.
  • Shoes do not offer any benefits to how one fights.
The Raid suit does offer a significant advatantage. Therefore, it can't be compared to getting new Shoes.
  • The Raid suit allows him to turn invisible - Shoes do not do that.
  • The Raid suit protects his entire body from impacts due to the technology - Shoes do not do that.
The Raid Suit simply gives Sanji an advantages that takes away from what we can credit to his skill and/or strength.

The Raid Suit more or less renders opponents incapable of doing anything (Not Sanji).



You may take this as a slight, the fact however is, WHY IS PAGE ONE SPINNING IN CIRCLES?
  • Is it because Sanji is visible to the eyes, but is moving so fast that Page One simply can't keep up?
We know the answer, it's not because Sanji is moving at blinding speed.... it's because Sanji is invisible thanks to the suit.

Sanji could literally have sat down behind Page One or simply walked away, and Page One would have stood there spinning in circles wondering where Sanji was.

That advantage makes it impossible to credit any victory he has to Sanji's strength as long as it's done via invisibility.

you're choosing not to see it from that perceptive as well.
I think you're looking at it wrong based on how you compared it to shoes when shoes generally do not give any game-changing advantages in a fight.

If Sanji got a new suit that did absolutely nothing, then your comparison would be accurate.

In fact, I have no issues with the suit per se. It's okay if it only enhanced his durability, it's even fine if it allowed him to fly. The issue is the invisibility.

That invisibility made a veteran spin in circles and that's why he got hit. Would he have taken that hit that easily were Sanji visible? I doubt it.

It would be much better if Sanji simply defeated Page One because Oda showcased how fast Sanji was compared to Page One, and how much more powerful he was than Page One. That would inspire much more confidence in his strength.

But yeah everyone has new weapons upgrades and shit.
Not everyone has upgrades and shit that absolutely renders their opponent absolutely clueless. Zoro's Sword whether it's new or not isn't going to have his opponents spinning in circles wondering if Zoro is there or not.

You might be happy about the suit, no problem. Nonetheless, the fact is the invisibility the suit offers takes away from how much we can impact Sanji's win to his actually skill and strength as a fighter.

Would Sanji have been able to defeat Page One as quickly and as easily as he did without the Invisibility?

Instead of Oda making Sanji stronger after all the struggles he's had, he's made Sanji currently just trickier of an opponent to fight because of Germa's technology.

As Sanji said prior to entering Wano:



Wouldn't you prefer to credit Sanji's strength to Sanji rather than to some piece of technology he gained from people who ridiculed his strength? I think it is a potentially a disservice to Sanji if the suit becomes integral to his fighting.

Sanji did perfectly well prior tot he time-skip without any technology, this would be a downgrade of his character. However, each to their own.
 

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Getting new shoes or new replacement as you mean by context means you're replacing an old thing you had with the same thing, but new. If the suit is like Sanji getting new shoes, then the supposed new shoe shouldn't do anything the old shoe didn't, likewise, the new suit shouldn't do anything the old suit didn't do.

Sanji never had a Raid Suit before, so it can't be compared to getting new shoes like replacement for something that has gotten old and worn out. He's gotten something entirely different.

Getting the Raid Suit cannot be compared to getting new shoes.
  • Shoes do not offer any benefits to how one fights.
The Raid suit does offer a significant advatantage. Therefore, it can't be compared to getting new Shoes.
  • The Raid suit allows him to turn invisible - Shoes do not do that.
  • The Raid suit protects his entire body from impacts due to the technology - Shoes do not do that.
The Raid Suit simply gives Sanji an advantages that takes away from what we can credit to his skill and/or strength.

The Raid Suit more or less renders opponents incapable of doing anything (Not Sanji).



You may take this as a slight, the fact however is, WHY IS PAGE ONE SPINNING IN CIRCLES?
  • Is it because Sanji is visible to the eyes, but is moving so fast that Page One simply can't keep up?
We know the answer, it's not because Sanji is moving at blinding speed.... it's because Sanji is invisible thanks to the suit.

Sanji could literally have sat down behind Page One or simply walked away, and Page One would have stood there spinning in circles wondering where Sanji was.

That advantage makes it impossible to credit any victory he has to Sanji's strength as long as it's done via invisibility.



I think you're looking at it wrong based on how you compared it to shoes when shoes generally do not give any game-changing advantages in a fight.

If Sanji got a new suit that did absolutely nothing, then your comparison would be accurate.

In fact, I have no issues with the suit per se. It's okay if it only enhanced his durability, it's even fine if it allowed him to fly. The issue is the invisibility.

That invisibility made a veteran spin in circles and that's why he got hit. Would he have taken that hit that easily were Sanji visible? I doubt it.

It would be much better if Sanji simply defeated Page One because Oda showcased how fast Sanji was compared to Page One, and how much more powerful he was than Page One. That would inspire much more confidence in his strength.



Not everyone has upgrades and shit that absolutely renders their opponent absolutely clueless. Zoro's Sword whether it's new or not isn't going to have his opponents spinning in circles wondering if Zoro is there or not.

You might be happy about the suit, no problem. Nonetheless, the fact is the invisibility the suit offers takes away from how much we can impact Sanji's win to his actually skill and strength as a fighter.

Would Sanji have been able to defeat Page One as quickly and as easily as he did without the Invisibility?

Instead of Oda making Sanji stronger after all the struggles he's had, he's made Sanji currently just trickier of an opponent to fight because of Germa's technology.

As Sanji said prior to entering Wano:



Wouldn't you prefer to credit Sanji's strength to Sanji rather than to some piece of technology he gained from people who ridiculed his strength? I think it is a potentially a disservice to Sanji if the suit becomes integral to his fighting.

Sanji did perfectly well prior tot he time-skip without any technology, this would be a downgrade of his character. However, each to their own.
I dont see a difference between someone consuming a df and Sanji using the raid suit.

It's just another tool that allows you to access a particular skill set.

Sanji won't just stop getting stronger because of his RS, he can still grow.
 

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I don't see a difference between someone consuming a df and Sanji using the raid suit.

It's just another tool that allows you to access a particular skill set.

Sanji won't just stop getting stronger because of his RS, he can still grow.
Correct, there is no issue with it but it wasn't a pattern with Strawhat members so far. They never relied on something completely new.
It could be argued that it started with Nami because she got Zeus but on the other hand she always had clouds which summoned thunder-based attacks.
There is no real issue with RS either except the invisibility because that's something completely new and almost unique(suke fruit aside). However, a higher tier of opponents should deal with it effortlessly if they have CoO.
 

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Correct, there is no issue with it but it wasn't a pattern with Strawhat members so far. They never relied on something completely new.
It could be argued that it started with Nami because she got Zeus but on the other hand she always had clouds which summoned thunder-based attacks.
There is no real issue with RS either except the invisibility because that's something completely new and almost unique(suke fruit aside). However, a higher tier of opponents should deal with it effortlessly if they have CoO.
I agree, this suit didnt suddenly make him able to contend with Admirals lol

It is Sanji's birthright to have that suit.

I feel like Oda just wanted to show us something new and cool, but fans are just ripping it apart and frothing at the mouth because "new is scary" fuck lol

It's new, it's cool, be happy and enjoy the manga.
 

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I dont see a difference between someone consuming a df and Sanji using the raid suit.

It's just another tool that allows you to access a particular skill set.

Sanji won't just stop getting stronger because of his RS, he can still grow.
Granted, Sanji could have gotten the DF Shiliew now has (RIP Absalom).

I'm just saying invisibility somewhat discredits his victories. We can't say Sanji won because he was the better fighter. Sanji only got those 2 hits in because he was invisible.

The one time Page One hit Sanji, it was when he could see him.

He will still grow even without the Raid Suit, the bothering thing is that Oda has finally given him invisibility.
Is it to make up for the fact he doesn't intend to make Sanji a power-house?

Is the M3 changing to Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei if he were alive? It's the implications of the suit and the fact that Sanji who is already a controversial topic might become more controversial. We can't say he beat Page One because Page One was just too weak to compete with Sanji. He couldn't compete because he couldn't see him.

I feel it'd be a shame for those who are fans of Sanji based on who he was pre-skip.
 

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What's the point of donning the suit if he won't use its full capabilities though, like enhanced speed and power as result?
Defense at best. Speed only for traveling faster, but not for attacks as it can't perform well like that unless the opponent always remain to stay where he is everything time which unlikely. His speed and power still his own and what you expect? It doesn't have anything to relates to power. It's main thing is invisibility. It's not like his siblings who RSes have more elemental or focus on strength like Yonji individually has.

It's more spying than fighting looking at capabilities. Though I do believe in theory it can unlock latent genes inside him to make him all the more stronger without it.
 

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Granted, Sanji could have gotten the DF Shiliew now has (RIP Absalom).

I'm just saying invisibility somewhat discredits his victories. We can't say Sanji won because he was the better fighter. Sanji only got those 2 hits in because he was invisible.

The one time Page One hit Sanji, it was when he could see him.

He will still grow even without the Raid Suit, the bothering thing is that Oda has finally given him invisibility.
Is it to make up for the fact he doesn't intend to make Sanji a power-house?

Is the M3 changing to Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei if he were alive? It's the implications of the suit and the fact that Sanji who is already a controversial topic might become more controversial. We can't say he beat Page One because Page One was just too weak to compete with Sanji. He couldn't compete because he couldn't see him.

I feel it'd be a shame for those who are fans of Sanji based on who he was pre-skip.
I also see what you mean. Very well put.

This is my stance.

If WITH the suit, Sanji eventually gets strong enough to beat an Admiral class fighter (this is all hypothetically speaking) 9/10 times they fight... So?

Those victories are still his.

I'm story, no one is going to say "he only won because of the suit" no, I'm story the way to defeat Sanji would be to disable the suit if it truly is that hard to over come. Personally? I think the suit could do with more enhancements.

No one criticizes Germa 66 because they wear suits. It's only a problem because its "Sanji"
 

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No one criticizes Germa 66 because they wear suits. It's only a problem because its "Sanji"
Imo, the only problem is the invisibility because it tastes cheap. That's why I hope that future opponents neutralise it with CoO to drive out the cheap taste.
 

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Granted, Sanji could have gotten the DF Shiliew now has (RIP Absalom).

I'm just saying invisibility somewhat discredits his victories. We can't say Sanji won because he was the better fighter. Sanji only got those 2 hits in because he was invisible.

The one time Page One hit Sanji, it was when he could see him.

He will still grow even without the Raid Suit, the bothering thing is that Oda has finally given him invisibility.
Is it to make up for the fact he doesn't intend to make Sanji a power-house?

Is the M3 changing to Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei if he were alive? It's the implications of the suit and the fact that Sanji who is already a controversial topic might become more controversial. We can't say he beat Page One because Page One was just too weak to compete with Sanji. He couldn't compete because he couldn't see him.

I feel it'd be a shame for those who are fans of Sanji based on who he was pre-skip.
Think of Shiryu then. Since now he has the invisible fruit, will that discredit him being a strong guy as well not training much? No it won't. Same with Sanji as he use RS (Certain times) as Oda isn't putting like that in your mindset.

What two hits? He only got one in while visible by accident when turn it on. Page One even can sense his presence still in that state. The other hit he went up in the air by speed. He remain visible to the last hit on-screen.

From what I seen, not one is discrediting with him fight Page One and majority are not worry about invisibility like you are and it made him featless when he only use it once by accident. No one is going that far and you seen to forget that we are in NW and Haki is quite apparent here. Even if Sanji want to use invisibility to fight (Which he won't much), COO would sense him out if the blue. Kinda nullifies using it and probably RS more if the person can sense you without much trouble.

Stop with Jimbei shove in dude. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Oda is making our of the group. He been advertise with Luffy and Zoro in many things whether in series or outside. It always be Monster Trio with them. Jimbei won't be apart of the group no matter what cause he is his something else his own, but won't be stronger than them at all and even end of the series.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Imo, the only problem is the invisibility because it tastes cheap. That's why I hope that future opponents neutralise it with CoO to drive out the cheap taste.
Better call Shiryu then since he can go invisible now. Does that mean he cheap himself despite clear power house? Moria and Page One still sense presence as you notice their eye movement to the area where they were. It be only cheap if they weren't looking at all before getting attack. If they notice, then it won't take long for those with COO to notice them too in the end.
 

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Better call Shiryu then since he can go invisible now. Does that mean he cheap himself despite clear power house? Moria and Page One still sense presence as you notice their eye movement to the area where they were. It be only cheap if they weren't looking at all before getting attack. If they notice, then it won't take long for those with COO to notice them too in the end.
They sensed movement but they saw nothing. It's not implied that either of them could use CoO.
Yes, Shiryu cheap-shotted Moriah. However, he would still be able to cut him with ease even if he wasn't invisible because he is a powerhouse already.
In the future it will be a cheap move against opponents who dont have CoO but against those who do have it, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
 

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No one criticizes Germa 66 because they wear suits. It's only a problem because its "Sanji"
That's because the Germa are not important characters per se or characters that we were acquainted with since the time-skip until now. We can't say the Germa were like this or like that pre-skip, but suddenly, after the time-skip, they like this. We don't say that and we can't because there's no precedent.
With Sanji, there is a precedent.

If WITH the suit, Sanji eventually gets strong enough to beat an Admiral class fighter (this is all hypothetically speaking) 9/10 times they fight... So?
Okay, so what is it the suit fundamentally gives Sanji:
  • Invisibility
Is invisibility really going to be an issue for an Admiral though? We can expect their Observation to be at the highest level and to such a degree invisibility will be redundant.

We don't even have to go to the Admirals. If Page One had no issues with invisibility, do we know if Sanji was going to win that fight?

I'm story, no one is going to say "he only won because of the suit" no, I'm story the way to defeat Sanji would be to disable the suit if it truly is that hard to over come. Personally? I think the suit could do with more enhancements.
If no one has a right to validly state Sanji only won because of the Raid Suit, then why is Page One spinning in circles and standing on one spot?
 

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How did you count two hits due to invisibility? I only counted one.
 

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Fuck, we JUST got past this discussion and now we are right back in the middle of it
 

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Defense at best. Speed only for traveling faster, but not for attacks as it can't perform well like that unless the opponent always remain to stay where he is everything time which unlikely. His speed and power still his own and what you expect? It doesn't have anything to relates to power. It's main thing is invisibility. It's not like his siblings who RSes have more elemental or focus on strength like Yonji individually has.

It's more spying than fighting looking at capabilities. Though I do believe in theory it can unlock latent genes inside him to make him all the more stronger without it.
If the opponent isn't fast enough, then it's not going to matter much because Sanji can move and change directions. It will perform pretty well because "Force = mass x acceleration," and Sanji's kicks are already strong, so it means more damage. Speed is power.
 

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If the opponent isn't fast enough, then it's not going to matter much because Sanji can move and change directions. It will perform pretty well because "Force = mass x acceleration," and Sanji's kicks are already strong, so it means more damage. Speed is power.
He did attacks before without momentum of speed in close up fights, so not always the case. He can't change direction well with RS as it more straightforward boost than can change direction. I doubt every opponent will be hit like that, so its better he won't rely on that feature in close up fights as much.

Not denying what you mean, more about how he would he fight someone is all.
 

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Granted, Sanji could have gotten the DF Shiliew now has (RIP Absalom).

I'm just saying invisibility somewhat discredits his victories. We can't say Sanji won because he was the better fighter. Sanji only got those 2 hits in because he was invisible.

The one time Page One hit Sanji, it was when he could see him.

He will still grow even without the Raid Suit, the bothering thing is that Oda has finally given him invisibility.
Is it to make up for the fact he doesn't intend to make Sanji a power-house?

Is the M3 changing to Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei if he were alive? It's the implications of the suit and the fact that Sanji who is already a controversial topic might become more controversial. We can't say he beat Page One because Page One was just too weak to compete with Sanji. He couldn't compete because he couldn't see him.

I feel it'd be a shame for those who are fans of Sanji based on who he was pre-skip.
I think monster trio is like an epithet to luffys commanders eventually... Just like sweet generals, all stars and don’t know about other yonkos.

Ussop could potential get stronger than sanji as I read previously(not saying its 100% fact) Oda wanted to make ussop vice captain. So sanji could be 4th in fact or it could actually be Jimbei becomes 4th
 

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I think monster trio is like an epithet to luffys commanders eventually... Just like sweet generals, all stars and don’t know about other yonkos.

Ussop could potential get stronger than sanji as I read previously(not saying its 100% fact) Oda wanted to make ussop vice captain. So sanji could be 4th in fact or it could actually be Jimbei becomes 4th
Highly doubt Usopp be even that strong as Sanji, Zoro, or even Jimbei. Maybe possible to be Vice Captain when it comes to leading (Cause lets be honest. If they follow Zoro, they will all perish. Following the guy who always get lost is not good idea), but don't think surpassing them.

Though I do agree on seeing Sanji, Zoro, and Jimbei as his YCs probably in the end.
 
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