Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Deleted member 169696]

Correct. 3 cheap shots tho.

First one was when Sanji realized that a giant zoan dude is about to destroy the town so he'd kick him no matter what to save the citizens. It's just common sense he would skip the whole "my name is Sanji, nice to meet you" thing. I'd never call that a cheap shot. It's situational.

The second time Sanji wasn't even aware of his invisibility, in his head he relied solely on his speed which I'm pretty sure played a huge role in PO getting hit by the attack as there's no guarantee PO would have not attempted to block the attack (or that the attack would have even been that impactful to begin with) if Sanji was just invisible since PO clearly noticed something coming his way. I'm not saying invisibility wasn't important here. More like 50/50, in my opinion.

And finally the third attack was due to PO lowering his guard and overestimating himself. Sanji didn't make himself invisible the third time.

Reasons to believe he would rather fight 'fairly' is the fact that back in the day when he fought Absalom he commented how cowardly Absalom was that he hid his appearance with his DF. I would assume Sanji would not say something like this to later turn into a coward he despises to be.

I looked up the definition just to be sure:

Spoiler: Cheap shot is...

1. (in sports) a blow, shove, or tackle maliciously directed against an opponent who is defenseless or off guard.
2. any mean or unsportsmanlike remark or action, esp. one directed at a defenseless or vulnerable person.

1: an act of deliberate roughness against a defenseless opponent especially in a contact sport

Bottom line: none of Sanji's attacks were intentionally, maliciously or deliberately rough/unfair etc and can't be called cheap shots. He took PO head on.

PS: not saying Sanji won't ever use the ability in his future fights, but I think that due to his chivalry he surely would try to avoid unsportsmanlike actions. But we'll see...

 

[nik87]

It's just common sense he would skip the whole "my name is Sanji, nice to meet you" thing. I'd never call that a cheap shot. It's situational.

Was P1 aware that he is being attacked in that moment? No. Cheap shot.

Sanji was just invisible since PO clearly noticed something coming his way. I'm not saying invisibility wasn't important here. More like 50/50, in my opinion.

He noticed movement, turned around and saw nothing. When he saw him jump off the roof he clearly tried to counter it by bitting him while here he did nothing. Cheap shot, imo.

And finally the third attack was due to PO lowering his guard and overestimating himself. Sanji didn't make himself invisible the third time.

Correct, dumb from P1's side but still, he wasnt aware that he was being attacked. Cheap shot.

The definition of cheap shot you found is just from some page. I found another definition from another some page xD

Spoiler

Cheap-shot
Scoring a hit on someone in their weak point or scoring a hit on someone when their back is turned. This is usually a sign of cowardice.

The point is, the opponent is unaware that he is being attacked so he has no means to counter it, that's why it's cheap.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Was P1 aware that he is being attacked in that moment? No. Cheap shot.

Why would Sanji announce his arrival before the enemy who is in the midst of wrecking the town with many innocent citizens running around? PO arrived fully prepared and was looking for Sanji from the very beginning in his full zoan form. Actually he was even telling the citizens to bring Sanji out the whole time. He's just too cocky and dumb. Why blame Sanji if his opponent is utterly stupid?

That's not what you'd call a cheap shot. Cheap shot is when you plan/scheme against someone, with malicious intents, to take advantage of someone. Sanji obviously wasn't trying to do that in any of the three examples. What have you rather preferred him to do in this situation? "Hey PO, while you're frightening innocent people and destroying their businesses allow me to introduce myself and be sure to try to block my next attack."

That's just so stupid, given the situation. Sanji did what was right at the moment.

He merely stopped the enemy with the first attack. The second time he didn't know about the invisibility. And the third one was after he himself was sent flying by PO. It's not his job to check whether the enemy is prepared for a counterattack. Sanji's behavior was logical.

When he saw him jump off the roof he clearly tried to counter it by bitting him while here he did nothing.

That's not what happened. He tried to attack Sanji but Sanji disappeared the very next moment and PO couldn't find him. But before that, right after the activation of the suit Sanji did jump ON the roof which PO could not see at all. He was surprised to see Sanji up there.

The definition of cheap shot you found is just from some page.

It's from two different reliable sources.

The point is, the opponent is unaware that he is being attacked so he has no means to counter it, that's why it's cheap.

I disagree. Sanji didn't plan it out like that, it was unintentional therefore fair. If anything we should call the circumstances unfair...

 

[nik87]

Why would Sanji announce his arrival before the enemy who is in the midst of wrecking the town with many innocent citizens running around? PO arrived fully prepared and was looking for Sanji from the very beginning in his full zoan form. Actually he was even telling the citizens to bring Sanji out the whole time. He's just too cocky and dumb. Why blame Sanji if his opponent is utterly stupid?

I am not saying that he should announce himself, never claimed that but it doesnt change the situation he landed a cheap shot. P1 was unaware of being attacked and didnt even try defending. P1 was looking for a simple soba stand owner, not for Vinsmoke Sanji. Zoro did a cheap shot on Hawkins as well, I am not claiming it only a Sanji-thing, on the contrary, Shilliew cheap-shotted Moriah, several cheap-shots during Marineford war...

That's not what you'd call a cheap shot. Cheap shot is when you plan/scheme against someone, with malicious intents, to take advantage of someone. Sanji obviously wasn't trying to do that in any of the three examples. What have you rather preferred him to do in this situation? "Hey PO, while you're frightening innocent people and destroying their businesses allow me to introduce myself and be sure to try to block my next attack."

Nah, that definition definitely is unfitting imo. Not being aware of being attacked thus unable to defend is a much better fit.
Like I said, it's not just Sanji thing but it doesnt change the unfair part of it. We cant say he was more powerful, faster or anything else, it's jsut that opponent wasnt aware of being attacked at all.

That's just so stupid, given the situation. Sanji did what was right at the moment.

He did the right thing, yes, nothing wrong with it but we cant say that Sanji is stronger than P1 because of that. That would be stupid, no?

He merely stopped the enemy with the first attack. The second time he didn't know about the invisibility. And the third one was after he himself was sent flying by PO. It's not his job to check whether the enemy is prepared for a counterattack. Sanji's behavior was logical.

I think at this point we are arguing different things. Not saying that Sanji's behavior is illogical or wrong or anything just pointing out that such hit dont hold much value when we compare who of the two is stronger.

That's not what happened. He tried to attack Sanji but Sanji disappeared the very next moment and PO couldn't find him. But before that, right after the activation of the suit Sanji did jump ON the roof which PO could not see at all. He was surprised to see Sanji up there.

You are arguing a different thing here. I am saying after he jumped off the roof P1 tried to counter by bitting because he clearly was able to see him.
Then Sanji vanished and landed a hit because of invisibility.

I disagree. Sanji didn't plan it out like that, it was unintentional therefore fair. If anything we should call the circumstances unfair...

You mean P1 was aware that he was being attacked when he was demolishing houses and when Sanji landed on him from the sky? If yes, how did he defend against those hits? I clearly dont see it.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

He did the right thing, yes, nothing wrong with it but we cant say that Sanji is stronger than P1 because of that. That would be stupid, no?

Man. OK. I think I misunderstood. Surely none of aforementioned arguments prove Sanji is stronger.

I'm inclined to believe that Sanji is stronger due to portrayal mostly, but some of the aspects of the fight make me think that even without the suit Sanji could probably win. But it's just my opinion.

I respect yours! So yeah... :3

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

disagree. Sanji didn't plan it out like that, it was unintentional therefore fair. If anything we should call the circumstances unfair...

You don't need to plan out an attack for it to be unfair. Someone could be right behind you and spontaneously decide they wanted to hit the back of your head for whatever reason. Pretty sure that's called a sucker punch and it's unfair. If they were fair, they'd let you know to get ready to fight.

For a fight to be fair, both characters must know they're engaging the other. Sanji attacked Page One whilst he was looking for clues regarding where Sanji was.

• This is why in any sports or fighting sports, they make sure both fighters are ready at the same time to make it fair.

Attacking whilst someone isn't aware of their opponent initially is a cheap-shot and unfair. This is why no combat sporting events allow the other opponent to attack another until a sign has been given to initiate in combat.

None of Sanji's attacks against Page One reflected:

• His skill to land an attack whether it was from being skilful or from being intimidating or from being a better fighter.

It was simply because he was invisible.

Nothing wrong with that, but if we're going to say Sanji is as strong or as fast as Page One, we can't say it when the reason Page One got hit in the first place is because he couldn't see Sanji,

The same thing applies to Absalom. He didn't prove to be stronger than Sanji or faster, he merely stayed invisible which made it difficult for Sanji to fight back. It's not a matter of Absalom being the better, faster or stronger faster.

In fact, if I re-call, didn't Absalom walk unto the Sunny when Luffy, Sanji, Zoro, Franky and co. were all there? None could attack him because they had no idea where he was.

Spoiler

When 2 characters are engaging on equal circumstances and both know they're fighting the other like was the case between:

• Luffy and Katakuri

We can say this character landed their attacks because of being faster, being stronger, being more creative with their attack style and such. We can't do any of that with Sanji as long as the invisibility is a thing.

Nothing wrong with it, but it changes a lot regarding who he was represented to be pre-skip as a fighter.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

I am not saying that he should announce himself, never claimed that but it doesnt change the situation he landed a cheap shot. P1 was unaware of being attacked and didnt even try defending. P1 was looking for a simple soba stand owner, not for Vinsmoke Sanji. Zoro did a cheap shot on Hawkins as well, I am not claiming it only a Sanji-thing, on the contrary, Shilliew cheap-shotted Moriah, several cheap-shots during Marineford war...

Nah, that definition definitely is unfitting imo. Not being aware of being attacked thus unable to defend is a much better fit.
Like I said, it's not just Sanji thing but it doesnt change the unfair part of it. We cant say he was more powerful, faster or anything else, it's jsut that opponent wasnt aware of being attacked at all.

He did the right thing, yes, nothing wrong with it but we cant say that Sanji is stronger than P1 because of that. That would be stupid, no?

I think at this point we are arguing different things. Not saying that Sanji's behavior is illogical or wrong or anything just pointing out that such hit dont hold much value when we compare who of the two is stronger.

You are arguing a different thing here. I am saying after he jumped off the roof P1 tried to counter by bitting because he clearly was able to see him.
Then Sanji vanished and landed a hit because of invisibility.

You mean P1 was aware that he was being attacked when he was demolishing houses and when Sanji landed on him from the sky? If yes, how did he defend against those hits? I clearly dont see it.

If you’re looking for someone to kill you’d expext them to put up a fight so his guard should have been up.

It was his fault for underestimating his opponent... not cheap shots... he didn’t confirm his opp as dead.
This is what I mean when I say people go to length to shit on an obvious feat... if someone underestimated me, it’s not my fault if I use that to my advantage

 

[nik87]

make me think that even without the suit Sanji could probably win.

I think so too. If it was a real major fight of the arc for Sanji I think he would end up victorious in the end without RS as I think he has yet to show what he learned during 2 years TS. However, I think it would be a hard fight, not something doable quickly before Drake and Hawkins arrive who are just around the corner...

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2019 ---

If you’re looking for someone to kill you’d expext them to put up a fight so his guard should have been up.

Hm, check my barfight scene I explained to Lexus. That is if its still there and didnt get deleted. Your guard wouldnt be the same if you called out Buggy and if you called out Kaido. P1 was expecting some simple soba stand owner, no reason to get his guard up for such guy...

It was his fault for underestimating his opponent... not cheap shots... he didn’t confirm his opp as dead.
This is what I mean when I say people go to length to shit on an obvious feat... if someone underestimated me, it’s not their fault if I use that to my advantage

Surely there is dumb stuff from P1's side but he wasnt aware of being attacked, that's why it's cheap shot. How did he guard from first and last attack? By turning his back to Sanji? You hit me from behind, does that make you stronger? No, it's simply a cheap shot, it's a question if you would land that hit if you came from the front(and were visible)...

 

[XXGenesis]

Actually fighting and Martial Art sports are different. Fighting dirty as Luffy says it best, should be expected. As to why many martial arts have crotch shots, and attacks that target the back of head or other dangerous areas, in real fighting you have to guard this obvious weak spot. As in Sports deadly blows are illegal as well crotch shots.

Camoflougue being part of Sanji's repoiretor just gives him an edge to surprise attack his opponents. It's not all that cheap

 

[nik87]

Camoflougue being part of Sanji's repoiretor just gives him an edge to surprise attack his opponents. It's not all that cheap

I dont consider it cheap either once they are aware of fighting an invisible opponent. The first hit, before they are aware of it is cheap tho.
It's a great advantage and combatants without CoO might be completely helpless against it unless they have paint nearby or spit on Sanji and throw dirt to make him visible but I doubt Oda is considering those options.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Highly doubt Usopp be even that strong as Sanji, Zoro, or even Jimbei. Maybe possible to be Vice Captain when it comes to leading (Cause lets be honest. If they follow Zoro, they will all perish. Following the guy who always get lost is not good idea), but don't think surpassing them.

Though I do agree on seeing Sanji, Zoro, and Jimbei as his YCs probably in the end.

He can grow to surpass his dad, and his dad seems to be a commander on Shanks ship.

 

[King Moe]

He can grow to surpass his dad, and his dad seems to be a commander on Shanks ship.

He will probably, but not beyond the other 3 since they be another lvl even stronger than Yasopp end of the series.

 

[nik87]

That would be a plot twist no one saw coming. Godo Usoppu 2nd strongest Strawhat...

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

He will probably, but not beyond the other 3 since they be another lvl even stronger than Yasopp end of the series.

It’s possible... recognition wise ussop will get popular, probably not strength wise.

 

[King Moe]

It’s possible... recognition wise ussop will get popular, probably not strength wise.

If by hype of God Usopp, I can see that happening. Probably might be put over Luffy as the 'real captain's despite bounty difference lol.

 

[M3J]

Pretty sure normal Sanji could beat Page One

 

[King Moe]

Pretty sure normal Sanji could beat Page One

Yep. He kick Page Down easily with unnamed kick before RS. He states he need something to disguise himself though. So he could have taken him regularly without it.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Pretty sure normal Sanji could beat Page One

high diff yeah... seems he steamrolled Pageoneesince hes fine rn

 

[King Moe]

high diff yeah... seems he steamrolled Pageoneesince hes fine rn

I would say it be a mid-diff/mid-diff+ without RS as Top 6 Headliner is challenging, but he beat him nonetheless.

 

[M3J]

I dunno what difficulty tbh, but it doesn't seem to be that high if he could take out Page One so quickly even with a suit that enhances abilities.