Team Natsu and Lucy vs Gray and Juvia

[Arjuna]

Hmm, I am still not sure about Natsu's DF. Can someone make that clear? Can he activate it at will? Maybe some proofs like pages would help a little..

Well so @natsulucy assumed Natsu can activate DF at will? Does this match end when one of side can't continue, are unconscious, or? If it's "one of side can't continue", then I agree with @SirSamuel016 , LFD would be the last. DF has no time to be activated.

The Battle will continue until one Side Fails To Fight.
And As @SirSamuel016 said this topic will get off topic.But I assume He can DF based on Tartaros and Wendy.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Hmm, I am still not sure about Natsu's DF. Can someone make that clear? Can he activate it at will? Maybe some proofs like pages would help a little..

Well so @natsulucy assumed Natsu can activate DF at will? Does this match end when one of side can't continue, are unconscious, or? If it's "one of side can't continue", then I agree with @SirSamuel016 , LFD would be the last. DF has no time to be activated.

Here are the pages from Chapter 411 where Natsu activated Dragon Force.

Spoiler: Natsu entering Dragon Force from Chapter 411

From that, you can see how Natsu activated Dragon Force and casually blew back Mard Geer with a punch.

I doubt elemental logic works in fairy tail, since Gray's Ice has always been >>> Fire in this manga. and it depends on whether DeS is more effective on Natsu than it is against normal humans, since Natsu is a hybrid demon, dragon slayer afterall.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2016 ---

Wrong, and massive overrating of Natsu. Natsu didnt show to melt his mid to high level of ice, nor he has shown to react to instant freeze, something that oneshotted him. Gray is going to battle Natsu in the end, and so their protrayal has them as equals.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2016 ---

Also, Lucy in character would never want to summon CSK, because that would mean she would break her golden key to do that, and that would be out of character for her. Hell, Juvia won't stand there and let her do what she wants. Juvia is definitely has always been above Lucy, and that won't change. She was named third best female character in the manga by Hiro Mashima himself.

Since when has Gray's Ice been portrayed to be be better than fire? In the Alvarez arc where Gray and some others fought Wahl's weakness robots, it was specifically pointed out that Fire is a terrible match-up for Gray.

Spoiler: Weakness Robots show everyone's weakness

What @Cosmicstar was referring to regarding Gray's ice was Natsu and Gray's little play fight in the Avatar base, where Gray froze a portion of the room and Natsu blew the ice away with his flames. And I think you're overrating Gray if anything. Natsu's constantly showing better feats than Gray, and Gray has shown nothing on the levels of Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode or Dragon Force, let alone the Flame Dragon King spells Natsu uses, which are separate to Igneel's power.

 

[Dranzer]

Yeah this battle pretty much goes right in Nalu's favour. We know when it comes down to it, Natsu > Gray. And for the other two, Lucy > Juvia. But then I may be too quick to speak since we haven't seen the full strength of Juvia nor Gray.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Call it what you want, but if you want to say he raged it into activating its essentially the same as him willing it to activate. He should be able to use it in this time period now by will easily. I'll avoid continuing the Dragon Force debate to keep the thread from going off-topic here.

Activating it through rage is not the same as willingly activating it whenever you want, while I wouldn't jump the gun saying he can activate anytime he wants to now. But yeah let's stop, it's getting of topic.

 

[Bliscor]

Here are the pages from Chapter 411 where Natsu activated Dragon Force.

Spoiler: Natsu entering Dragon Force from Chapter 411

From that, you can see how Natsu activated Dragon Force and casually blew back Mard Geer with a punch.



Since when has Gray's Ice been portrayed to be be better than fire? In the Alvarez arc where Gray and some others fought Wahl's weakness robots, it was specifically pointed out that Fire is a terrible match-up for Gray.

Spoiler: Weakness Robots show everyone's weakness

What @Cosmicstar was referring to regarding Gray's ice was Natsu and Gray's little play fight in the Avatar base, where Gray froze a portion of the room and Natsu blew the ice away with his flames. And I think you're overrating Gray if anything. Natsu's constantly showing better feats than Gray, and Gray has shown nothing on the levels of Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode or Dragon Force, let alone the Flame Dragon King spells Natsu uses, which are separate to Igneel's power.

So? that was casual freezing from Gray. It doesn't mean Natsu is capable melting Gray's ice.
Ice has been> fire all the time. Have you been following along with the manga at all? Gray froze flames from a character that defeated Natsu.
Natsu failed to melt Silver's ice and got onshottted by him.
Ice being a terrible mismatch is just a statement, there's no feats for it. and Gray destroyed that flame robot anyway.

and you're also overrating Natsu if you constantly diminish and ignore the fact that Gray and Natsu are protrayed to be equals, and have shown to be such by Hiro Mashima himself. Natsu is the main character, so obviously he will hog and get the most feats. He has better feats than Laxus, so that means he's > Laxus too?

the love affair people have for Natsu and Lucy is annoying. Apparently Lucy>Juvia despite the fact Juvia has always been ahead of Lucy.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2016 ---

Yeah this battle pretty much goes right in Nalu's favour. We know when it comes down to it, Natsu > Gray. And for the other two, Lucy > Juvia. But then I may be too quick to speak since we haven't seen the full strength of Juvia nor Gray.

Are you a fortune teller? When it comes down to what? During their two encounters, Gray has defeated Natsu in both. and you contradicted your own claims when you just said you haven't seen the full strenght of Gray. while we all have clearly seen the full strength of Natsu.

 

[SirSamuel016]

So? that was casual freezing from Gray. It doesn't mean Natsu is capable melting Gray's ice.
Ice has been> fire all the time. Have you been following along with the manga at all? Gray froze flames from a character that defeated Natsu.
Natsu failed to melt Silver's ice and got onshottted by him.
Ice being a terrible mismatch is just a statement, there's no feats for it. and Gray destroyed that flame robot anyway.

and you're also overrating Natsu if you constantly diminish and ignore the fact that Gray and Natsu are protrayed to be equals, and have shown to be such by Hiro Mashima himself. Natsu is the main character, so obviously he will hog and get the most feats. He has better feats than Laxus, so that means he's > Laxus too?

If you go back and read Chapters 459 and 460, you can clearly see everyone switched opponents and it was Juvia who took out the flame robot.

Silver's Ice and Gray's Ice are different, and that was Tartarus Natsu. There's nothing to indicate someone with less experience and mastery of Ice DeS could freeze Natsu.

Am I really overrating Natsu? He's beaten characters far above Gray lots of times in the manga: Jellal, Zero, Future Rogue (albeit with help)... the list goes on. Natsu has constantly had better showings than Gray, and with things like Dragon Force in his arsenal which Gray hasn't shown anything of that power to date, its near impossible for them to be equals. Natsu's been shown to be a cut above pretty much everyone this arc; stronger than Erza, Gray, Gajeel, you name them and he's outdone them feats wise. And yes, I would argue Natsu > Laxus. Laxus hasn't shown anything to match the sheer power of Dragon Force or Flame Dragon King Spells, so why shouldn't Natsu be > Laxus?

So in this fight, having shown nothing that can match the power of Dragon Force, its extremely difficult for Gruvia to match Natsu's offensive power, and NaLu take it handidly.

 

[Bliscor]

If you go back and read Chapters 459 and 460, you can clearly see everyone switched opponents and it was Juvia who took out the flame robot.

Silver's Ice and Gray's Ice are different, and that was Tartarus Natsu. There's nothing to indicate someone with less experience and mastery of Ice DeS could freeze Natsu.

Am I really overrating Natsu? He's beaten characters far above Gray lots of times in the manga: Jellal, Zero, Future Rogue (albeit with help)... the list goes on. Natsu has constantly had better showings than Gray, and with things like Dragon Force in his arsenal which Gray hasn't shown anything of that power to date, its near impossible for them to be equals. Natsu's been shown to be a cut above pretty much everyone this arc; stronger than Erza, Gray, Gajeel, you name them and he's outdone them feats wise. And yes, I would argue Natsu > Laxus. Laxus hasn't shown anything to match the sheer power of Dragon Force or Flame Dragon King Spells, so why shouldn't Natsu be > Laxus?

So in this fight, having shown nothing that can match the power of Dragon Force, its extremely difficult for Gruvia to match Natsu's offensive power, and NaLu take it handidly.

Um, post the panels, because that isn't true, and plus Gray was not in his des mode, so he wasn't trying. so you can't use that argument.

Gray as a rookie mastered DES quickly, and now with a year of training, he is > Silver.

Natsu beat Jellal because he ate etherion and got a DF powerup
He defeated Zero because he used Jellal's flames and poweruped
and he defeated FRogue because of Atlas flames.
Natsu alone would get stomped by these opponents if he doesn't get handed a powerup handed to him on a platter. Why can't you see this?
all of those characters are way above Natsu. Natsu won because of powerups, and plot armor.

LOL DF Natsu didn't do shit to Marde, so where is this overrating coming from?
Laxus on the other hand is shown to oneshot Ajeel as hinted by August.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

No natsu is not beating gray handily lol we have to wait for seeing Gray serious..he was not serious against ajeel so for now natsu beat him mid diff but in the future i'm pretty sure that wpuld change

 

[Bliscor]

Protrayal clearly makes it a high diff between these two, not "mid-diff". However it's funny seeing protrayal being conveniently ignored.
Mashima had Gray and Natsu fairing even with each other for a reason in the avatar arc.

Most of Natsu's feats in the timeskip were of Igneel's power.
a little bit of perspective is needed on here.

 

[Arjuna]

Protrayal clearly makes it a high diff between these two, not "mid-diff". However it's funny seeing protrayal being conveniently ignored.
Mashima had Gray and Natsu fairing even with each other for a reason in the avatar arc.

Most of Natsu's feats in the timeskip were of Igneel's power.
a little bit of perspective is needed on here.

The Thread will become off Topic.The Only Time He used Igneel's Power was against Zeref.I already posted The Link To Dragon Slaying Magic Thread.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

Protrayal clearly makes it a high diff between these two, not "mid-diff". However it's funny seeing protrayal being conveniently ignored.
Mashima had Gray and Natsu fairing even with each other for a reason in the avatar arc.

Most of Natsu's feats in the timeskip were of Igneel's power.
a little bit of perspective is needed on here.

I said mid diff because we have seen nothing from him atm but yeah i can see gray trumps card giving an high extrem diff fight for natsu..

 

[Bliscor]

I said mid diff because we have seen nothing from him atm but yeah i can see gray trumps card giving an high extrem diff fight for natsu..

You can not say mid-diff until we see Gray fight. The word you are looking for is "inconclusive".

 

[Ice devil slayer]

You can not say mid-diff until we see Gray fight. The word you are looking for is "inconclusive".

Yes you're right..i will wait for gray to fight seriously since he was not serious against ajeel

 

[Arjuna]

Every One Can See Natsu's Current Powerlevel in This Thread.Seriously Understimation of DF is difficult to understand.Seriously He defeated Jellal,Zero with this and came very close to nearly defeating Mard from being unable to scratch him.In Daphne Arc Natsu had defeated gray.It could not have been done without Hiro's Permisson.The Power shown by Natsu is unmatched by Gray.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...548982&sig=ALL1Aj5x8DXw0JYN8zqYqd302wDpSo7FFA

 

[Ice devil slayer]

Every One Can See Natsu's Current Powerlevel in This Thread.Seriously Understimation of DF is difficult to understand.Seriously He defeated Jellal,Zero with this and came very close to nearly defeating him from being unable to scratch him.In Daphne Arc Natsu had defeated gray.It could not have been done without Hiro's Permisson.The Power shown by Natsu is unmatched by Gray.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...548982&sig=ALL1Aj5x8DXw0JYN8zqYqd302wDpSo7FFA

I don't underestimated natsu..i just think we have to wait to see gray fighting seriously before making an judgement..

 

[Arjuna]

I don't underestimated natsu..i just think we have to wait to see gray fighting seriously before making an judgement..

1)Don't Worry My Friend.I know You do not Underestimate Natsu.I was talking about DF part understimation.It should not be underestimated When Natsu clearly defeated lot Stronger opponents than him in this Mode.
2)Sure We haven't seen most about his power and They all were Fleeing from Ajeel.Look from a neutral point of view.Gray failed to Freeze His sand whereas Natsu burnt the ant pit.Does not this little Scuffle prove who is stronger?I am not saying Gray is Weak.Gray was struggling in Ant Pit.We haven't seen True power of Natsu in Base State leave alone DF.Both of them used part of Their Energy.So Who is stronger does it not prove.

 

[Brandish μ]

I've always been firm on Natsu being superior to Gray this arc, probably mid-diff between them at best. Mainly because Natsu's offence feat-wise are only surpassed by Acnologia... while other Spriggans have only shown to have moves on the same level as Natsu. While it's not inconceivable that Gray could be that strong, the odds of someone obtaining this level of power is going to be very low so that's why I will need to see feats from Gray if I'm going to think he's at that level.

The more we don't see Gray fight though leads me to feel he'll be right up there. It'd be better that way too, for Isghal's chances and of course as a fan of Gray's.

 

[Axel Stone]

Every One Can See Natsu's Current Powerlevel in This Thread.Seriously Understimation of DF is difficult to understand.Seriously He defeated Jellal,Zero with this and came very close to nearly defeating Mard from being unable to scratch him.In Daphne Arc Natsu had defeated gray.It could not have been done without Hiro's Permisson.The Power shown by Natsu is unmatched by Gray.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...548982&sig=ALL1Aj5x8DXw0JYN8zqYqd302wDpSo7FFA

I doubt there has been much underestimation of DF outside of a few people. You also have to remember that DF was obtained by Natsu due to outside resources and help, it wasn't just his own power that made him transform into DF. He ate a highly concentrated source of magic in Etherion to defeat Jellal, and then he received Jellal's magical reserves to pummel Zero. Don't neglect all of that. It's like giving Natsu credit for defeating Hades even though Laxus's magical reserves being transferred to Natsu played a huge part in Hades's defeat, The point is Natsu resorted to getting outside help because he himself knows that he can't beat those opponents by himself.

Marde himself was caught off guard after the initial blitz and when the play was in even field, DF Natsu got reckt by Marde.

Also, Natsu's burning Ajeel didn't do much to Ajeel, it's pretty much the same level of feat as Gray freezing his Sand Golems in terms of damage being negligible. Ajeel got hit by Natsu simply because his guard was down.

Don't put Current Gray in to vs threads, where he would not have seen his full power, he casually froze a portion of a land, so we know this guy has a lot of potential, even more so with his talk with Juvia saying he has something up his sleeve. The problem is just that he's still lacking feats which will come in time.

I still maintain Gray and Natsu are roughly equals when they go all out.

Juvia is definitely > Lucy however.

 

[Axiomus]

I haven't viewed Natsu and Gray as being equals since the X791. Natsu had better feats than Gray throughout the entire GMG arc, and he had the advantage of being able to use LFD. There was only 2 weeks of time between the Eclipse arc and the Tartarus arc. This meant that Natsu was basically always at his Tartarus arc-levels during the GMG. If he had gone all out during the GMG, he would have been at the level of the dragon-force used against Mard. This is a much higher level than what Gray showed during the GMG, all the way up until he received a power up from Silver.

Now, Gray pulled ahead of Natsu when he received a power-up from Silver. Demon Slayer Magic also happened to be super effective against demons, giving Gray a further edge over Natsu when it came to the opponents they were fighting. I'm willing to say that Silver was on X791 Laxus' level.

If we want to be absolutely fair, we have to compare Gray's power-up with Natsu's power-up. That would be Igneel's power, and this right here pretty much settles the Natsu vs Gray debate. There is no question that Igneel is massively superior to Silver. Igneel is on Acnologia's league, and Acnologia is someone potentially stronger than Silver's entire species. Even if you say that FDK was Igneel's power, Natsu retained the ability to cast LFD after Laxus' power ran out. Gray obviously learned how to use demon slayer on his own. If Natsu learned how to cast FDK spells on his own, he would be above Gray. It may not be as strong as Igneel's power, but you don't have to be on Igneel's level to beat Gray. Honestly, if Natsu ever reaches Igneel's level on his own, he would be a match for Acnologia

GMG/Tartarus Natsu > GMG Gray. Mid diff in Natsu's favor.
Tartarus Gray (Silver's power) >= GMG/Tartarus Natsu. High diff in Gray's favor.
Current Natsu (Igneel's power) >>>>>>>>>> Tartarus Gray (Silver's power). Natsu oneshots Gray.
Current Natsu (Igneel's power) >>>>>>>> Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). Natsu still oneshots.
Current Natsu (base) >= Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). High diff in Natsu's favor.
Current Natsu (FDK without Igneel's power) > Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). Mid diff in Natsu's favor.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Um, post the panels, because that isn't true, and plus Gray was not in his des mode, so he wasn't trying. so you can't use that argument.

Gray as a rookie mastered DES quickly, and now with a year of training, he is > Silver.

Natsu beat Jellal because he ate etherion and got a DF powerup
He defeated Zero because he used Jellal's flames and poweruped
and he defeated FRogue because of Atlas flames.
Natsu alone would get stomped by these opponents if he doesn't get handed a powerup handed to him on a platter. Why can't you see this?
all of those characters are way above Natsu. Natsu won because of powerups, and plot armor.

LOL DF Natsu didn't do shit to Marde, so where is this overrating coming from?
Laxus on the other hand is shown to oneshot Ajeel as hinted by August.

This panel shows everyone switching weakness robot opponents: You have Juvia take on the flame type, Gray taking on the the steam type, Mira taking on the brute force type and Lisanna taking on the speed type.

Spoiler: Mages switch weakness robot opponents

So as you can clearly see, Gray didn't fight the flame type because he's at a disadvantage against flames. And you can't be serious in saying Gray's not serious unless he uses his devil slaying magic. Ice Make Magic is his main go-to magic as its the one he's had the longest. Ice Devil Slayer magic is basically the power-up he got whereas Natsu got Lightning-Flame Dragon mode.

I definitely wouldn't say Gray mastered Devil Slayer magic. Its more like he rushed learning some techniques to use against the Tartarus demons and took them out quickly because of the slayer advantage it gave him. Silver learning Ice DeS magic to take on a flame demon (E.N.D) never really made sense to me, because fundamentally fire >>> ice, and there's no good reason why that real life observation shouldn't be applicable in the manga.

Look at Wendy vs Ezel, she had to eat high quantities of Ethernano in the air to unlock her Dragon Force. Its basically the same case for Natsu, albeit he has gotten help throughout the series. But Natsu has still beaten superior opponents by himself, like Zancrow for example. Zancrow was well above him and had slayer superiority (God Flames > Dragon Flames) but Natsu still won in the end. Natsu's persevered against stronger opponents and won throughout the series with his own power most of the way, even if he did need help to unlock it at times.

DF Natsu didn't do shit to Mard Geer? Natsu went from tickling him with his attacks to sending Mard flying with just a punch, and had Mard shitting himself when he was getting hit. And to add to the sheer power Natsu threw at Mard, his Dragon Slayer Secret Arts nearly took Mard out, but Mard held on, which is when Gray got the last shot in. Mard went from being in really good shape to being extremely close to defeat when Natsu attacked him in Dragon Force; he definitely dealt a fair chunk of damage to Mard with it. Now, I can see you arguing Gray had a better showing in that fight, which he arguably did, but only because of his slayer advantage. Without the advantage it gives him, he wouldn't of done much at all to Mard.

I'm not going to continue this further as its getting off-topic from the actual point of the thread, in NaLu vs Gruvia. Natsu beats Gray with what he has, Juvia beats Lucy but Natsu's magic power sees him > Juvia and that wins NaLu the match. And I say this as Gray has nothing on the level of LFD or Dragon Force. And with his FDK spells which aren't done using Igneel's power there as well, there's no real way for team Gruvia to match that power Natsu can throw at them.