I haven't viewed Natsu and Gray as being equals since the X791. Natsu had better feats than Gray throughout the entire GMG arc, and he had the advantage of being able to use LFD. There was only 2 weeks of time between the Eclipse arc and the Tartarus arc. This meant that Natsu was basically always at his Tartarus arc-levels during the GMG. If he had gone all out during the GMG, he would have been at the level of the dragon-force used against Mard. This is a much higher level than what Gray showed during the GMG, all the way up until he received a power up from Silver.
Now, Gray pulled ahead of Natsu when he received a power-up from Silver. Demon Slayer Magic also happened to be super effective against demons, giving Gray a further edge over Natsu when it came to the opponents they were fighting. I'm willing to say that Silver was on X791 Laxus' level.
If we want to be absolutely fair, we have to compare Gray's power-up with Natsu's power-up. That would be Igneel's power, and this right here pretty much settles the Natsu vs Gray debate. There is no question that Igneel is massively superior to Silver. Igneel is on Acnologia's league, and Acnologia is someone potentially stronger than Silver's entire species. Even if you say that FDK was Igneel's power, Natsu retained the ability to cast LFD after Laxus' power ran out. Gray obviously learned how to use demon slayer on his own. If Natsu learned how to cast FDK spells on his own, he would be above Gray. It may not be as strong as Igneel's power, but you don't have to be on Igneel's level to beat Gray. Honestly, if Natsu ever reaches Igneel's level on his own, he would be a match for Acnologia
GMG/Tartarus Natsu > GMG Gray. Mid diff in Natsu's favor. Tartarus Gray (Silver's power) >= GMG/Tartarus Natsu. High diff in Gray's favor. Current Natsu (Igneel's power) >>>>>>>>>> Tartarus Gray (Silver's power). Natsu oneshots Gray. Current Natsu (Igneel's power) >>>>>>>> Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). Natsu still oneshots. Current Natsu (base) >= Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). High diff in Natsu's favor. Current Natsu (FDK without Igneel's power) > Current Gray (DeS without Silver's power). Mid diff in Natsu's favor.
Natsu has better feats than most characters in the manga because as a MC he has the luxury of showcasing them, while other characters like Gray, Gajeel and a few don't have the type of luxury, and due to fucked up powerscaling and author favouritism over Natsu, their potential is wasted. It doesn't mean he's superior than most characters. For example Ishval Saints don't have as much feats than Natsu, but they are still > Natsu, and can oneshot him.
Um you forgetting something. Igneel was still in Natsu and controlling his immensive magical reserve from carnage, so Natsu would not be able to use Dragon force in the GMG arc, because Igneel was controlling his power. By the time Igneel left his body, that's when we saw Natsu using DF in rage mode. When did Gray relearn Des Magic? Where's the proof? He still has the same level of prowess as he had against Marde.
Just because Natsu had the ability to use LFD on his own after it ran out, doesn't mean that he is able to use Dragon King mode flames on his own. Until you prove he can do so with panels after Natsu's battle with Zeref concluded.
Now for your rankings I disagree
1)Gray can push Natsu to high diff and win extreme diff with his feats against Silver
2)Um no, Tartaros Gray (Des)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tartaros Base Natsu's power. Talk about underestimation here. Gray would beat Natsu low-mid diff in that scenario.
3)Well that's a no brainer. Natsu can oneshot nearly all human characters in the manga, as he has dragon's power in him
4)Yeah, you have zero proof for this, even more so when you don't even know Gray's full power as a DeS.
Logically Des Gray>Base Natsu, and it isn't close. Gray wins mid diff.
5)Again no proof that Natsu can use FDK
Natsu has better feats than most characters in the manga because as a MC he has the luxury of showcasing them, while other characters like Gray, Gajeel and a few don't have the type of luxury, and due to fucked up powerscaling and author favouritism over Natsu, their potential is wasted. It doesn't mean he's superior than most characters. For example Ishval Saints don't have as much feats than Natsu, but they are still > Natsu, and can oneshot him.
Um you forgetting something. Igneel was still in Natsu and controlling his immensive magical reserve from carnage, so Natsu would not be able to use Dragon force in the GMG arc, because Igneel was controlling his power. By the time Igneel left his body, that's when we saw Natsu using DF in rage mode. When did Gray relearn Des Magic? Where's the proof? He still has the same level of prowess as he had against Marde.
Just because Natsu had the ability to use LFD on his own after it ran out, doesn't mean that he is able to use Dragon King mode flames on his own. Until you prove he can do so with panels after Natsu's battle with Zeref concluded.
Now for your rankings I disagree
1)Gray can push Natsu to high diff and win extreme diff with his feats against Silver
2)Um no, Tartaros Gray (Des)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tartaros Base Natsu's power. Talk about underestimation here. Gray would beat Natsu low-mid diff in that scenario.
3)Well that's a no brainer. Natsu can oneshot nearly all human characters in the manga, as he has dragon's power in him
4)Yeah, you have zero proof for this, even more so when you don't even know Gray's full power as a DeS.
Logically Des Gray>Base Natsu, and it isn't close. Gray wins mid diff.
5)Again no proof that Natsu can use FDK
Being the main character only helps Natsu's case.
Main characters are often foreshadowed to eventually become the strongest, and right now Fairy Tail looks like its reaching its finale. Author favoritism only helps to support this. The series sets Natsu up as Zeref's ultimate creation. On top of that, he learned his magic from Igneel which is one of the strongest characters in the series. None of the Ishgar Saints are oneshotting Natsu.
Quite the opposite: Natsu oneshotted Bluenote with a basic roar, and Bluenote is at least on Jura's level. The Ishgar Heavenly Saints haven't really shown any feats that puts them head over shoulders above Jura. At least, not to the point where they can oneshot someone of his caliber. If anything, the Ishgar Saints are going to have a hard time with Natsu in a 1v1. There is no proof that Igneel was controlling Natsu's power and preventing him from using dragon force.
Why would he, anyways? Especially when Natsu's life was in danger. Before you accuse someone of being short sighted and inaccurate, you might want hold back a bit on the speculation. Silver's power would have long ran out by now.
That's why Gray no longer has the tattoo show up whenever he uses Demon Slayer magic. Instead, he shows different patterns for his own demonification. Gray hasn't shown any feats that are vastly superior to Silver. In fact, Silver froze the giant's village. That is in fact larger than Ice-Make: Silver. The fact I'm assuming Gray has improved since his Tartarus level is actually giving him the benefit of the doubt. Igneel's flames are already similar to Natsu's flames, certainly much more similar than lightning.
Natsu literally transforms his body to resemble Igneel's whenever he uses dragon force. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Natsu ends up using Fire Dragon King spells again, especially if he's in Dragon Force. You can argue that he may have already learned how to use FDK spells on his own.He used them without removing his bandages, which is the only point where we can 100% say for certain that he began using Igneel's power.
1) Silver was holding back against Gray, and purposely lost. Silver probably could have kept going so long as Keith was around to reanimate him. Also, I would argue that Natsu has a more durable body than Silver. We've seen Natsu get shot in the mouth and survive, as well as block swords with his arm. This is especially true in Dragon Force, where his body turns dragon-like. 2) You look at their fight with Mard Geer, and Natsu and Gray's feats were practically mirrors of each other's in terms of AoE and DC. Gray's magic was simply super effective in fighting demons. The situation would have completely reversed if this was against dragons. If this was Base Gray, he wouldn't have done nearly as well as DF Natsu did against Mard Geer. The difference between Gray(Silver's power) and Natsu wasn't nearly as large as you tried to make it. At most, Silver was on Laxus' level. 3) Exactly. 4) Natsu's normal feats are just as massive as Gray's ice-make: Silver. Unlike Gray, however, Natsu has actually been shown to be able to oneshot opponents of Bluenote's level. That's something Gray simply hasn't done. Base Natsu is already a Dragon Slayer. There's no reason that just because Gray has Demon Slayer that he would be superior to base Natsu. If anything, dragon slayers are superior to demon slayers. Dragons are stronger. 5) Natsu used FDK against the war god, without unwrapping his bandages. He also used FDK roar against the Alvarez troops, and Happy didn't recognize that as him using Igneel's power. Happy recognized him unwrapping his bandages as him starting to use Igneel's power.
Being the main character only helps Natsu's case.
Main characters are often foreshadowed to eventually become the strongest, and right now Fairy Tail looks like its reaching its finale. Author favoritism only helps to support this. The series sets Natsu up as Zeref's ultimate creation. On top of that, he learned his magic from Igneel which is one of the strongest characters in the series. None of the Ishgar Saints are oneshotting Natsu.
Quite the opposite: Natsu oneshotted Bluenote with a basic roar, and Bluenote is at least on Jura's level. The Ishgar Heavenly Saints haven't really shown any feats that puts them head over shoulders above Jura. At least, not to the point where they can oneshot someone of his caliber. If anything, the Ishgar Saints are going to have a hard time with Natsu in a 1v1. There is no proof that Igneel was controlling Natsu's power and preventing him from using dragon force.
Why would he, anyways? Especially when Natsu's life was in danger. Before you accuse someone of being short sighted and inaccurate, you might want hold back a bit on the speculation. Silver's power would have long ran out by now.
That's why Gray no longer has the tattoo show up whenever he uses Demon Slayer magic. Instead, he shows different patterns for his own demonification. Gray hasn't shown any feats that are vastly superior to Silver. In fact, Silver froze the giant's village. That is in fact larger than Ice-Make: Silver. The fact I'm assuming Gray has improved since his Tartarus level is actually giving him the benefit of the doubt. Igneel's flames are already similar to Natsu's flames, certainly much more similar than lightning.
Natsu literally transforms his body to resemble Igneel's whenever he uses dragon force. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Natsu ends up using Fire Dragon King spells again, especially if he's in Dragon Force. You can argue that he may have already learned how to use FDK spells on his own.He used them without removing his bandages, which is the only point where we can 100% say for certain that he began using Igneel's power.
1) Silver was holding back against Gray, and purposely lost. Silver probably could have kept going so long as Keith was around to reanimate him. Also, I would argue that Natsu has a more durable body than Silver. We've seen Natsu get shot in the mouth and survive, as well as block swords with his arm. This is especially true in Dragon Force, where his body turns dragon-like. 2) You look at their fight with Mard Geer, and Natsu and Gray's feats were practically mirrors of each other's in terms of AoE and DC. Gray's magic was simply super effective in fighting demons. The situation would have completely reversed if this was against dragons. If this was Base Gray, he wouldn't have done nearly as well as DF Natsu did against Mard Geer. The difference between Gray(Silver's power) and Natsu wasn't nearly as large as you tried to make it. At most, Silver was on Laxus' level. 3) Exactly. 4) Natsu's normal feats are just as massive as Gray's ice-make: Silver. Unlike Gray, however, Natsu has actually been shown to be able to oneshot opponents of Bluenote's level. That's something Gray simply hasn't done. Base Natsu is already a Dragon Slayer. There's no reason that just because Gray has Demon Slayer that he would be superior to base Natsu. If anything, dragon slayers are superior to demon slayers. Dragons are stronger. 5) Natsu used FDK against the war god, without unwrapping his bandages. He also used FDK roar against the Alvarez troops, and Happy didn't recognize that as him using Igneel's power. Happy recognized him unwrapping his bandages as him starting to use Igneel's power.
You're overlooking the point, him getting favouritism just means character like Gray and Gajeel won't be able to live to their potential. and their potential in their magic and feats is just as better than than Natsu's provided they are put in a equal footing.
Being the main character doesn't mean you'll be the strongest. Plenty of mangas had main characters not even be top 3 in strongest in the end of their respective series.
and being strongest ultimate creation is downfall for Natsu since Gray is a demon killer which adds in the advantage he would have over Natsu.
Yes, they are oneshotting Natsu based on hype and protrayal.
Jura gave Laxus a high level of difficulty and is stated to trained to become even stronger than that.
whereas Bluenote got his ass demolished by Gildartz.
What does Bluenote have that makes him around Jura level?. He's around Current Freed level at this point.
Look at how obvious it is. Has Natsu ever used DF without an eternal source?
So why is it that Natsu uses DF right away right after Igneel is out of his body? That is enough proof right there in the pudding as I'm using common sense. Igneel already stated to Natsu in the Tartaros arc that the reason he stayed in Natsu's body was to control his magic. Did you forget that?
Once again, using tattoos as evidence is not enough proof because he went to Porlyusica to get it cured.
LOL, you're not giving benefit of doubt by stating Gray has improved. You are stating common sense, because Gray has trained for 6+ months, so logically he should improve. Gray's DeS AOE is much larger than his pre-timeskip ice attacks, and he did that casually freezing a portion of a land. that's more than enough to state he has improved. Makarov has stated Gray's power has changed than it was a year ago.
We don't know how Silver froze the giants. He could've had a lot of difficulty in freezing them, wheras Gray did his feats casually, and once again you're showing your opinion is shortsighted and inaccurate because you yourself are using speculations. No, that is once again speculation, we can simply state him having Igneel's powers means he was able to use Dragon King mode on that reason alone, and him simply removing off his bandages, means to use more magical power to face Zeref. nothing to do with him using Dragon King mode by himself.
1)That's beside the point, it doesn't take away the feats Gray gained in the arc in endurance, pain and durability along with more tactic feats and a higher DC as it oneshotted Silver.
and plus Silver obv wasn't holding back by the time Gray started to use Iced Shell.
Silver who has impressive speed couldn't dodge Gray's clones or react to him.
What's your point? Silver being immortal means he could've kept going against Natsu too or any other character as long as Keith isn't dead.
Natsu having more durability than Silver would be quite obvious as Silver is literally a puppet zombie.
Puppet zombies are obviously fragile.
2) So? Just because they were protrayed evenly as a team doesn't mean they are equal. Gray's offensive in DC using Silver's power was shown to be massive and had a larger scale of attacks than his Pre-DeS self. You mentioned Base Natsu not DF Natsu. Either way, Gray logically is low-mid diffing Natsu in this scenario. There's a reason why Gajeel was shitting his pants when he saw Gray in action. Note: It's not just has to do about super effectiveness in magic. Gray had endurance where he saved Natsu from the strongest attack Marde showed and still had more enough than enough to oneshot his opponent, while Natsu had his magic drained and nearly killed because of it.
4)This is your inaccuracy speaking again. You don't know how much powerful Gray has gotten, all the while we saw Base Natsu pretty much going all out. Natsu had to release his full magical reserves to use this feats, while Gray casually did his. Gray releasing his magical reserves on his ice would logically be >>>>>> Base Natsu's scale feats. Bluenote is fodder, quit bringing him up. Gray, Gajeel and Erza will all oneshot him too.
Powerscaling is messed up in this manga, so I don't believe that Dragon Slayer>Demon Slayer nonsense anymore. Even more so in this context since Gray>>>>>>Natsu in magic strength seeing Natsu is a demon after all. Gray's DES should logically destroy Natsu since Natsu being a demon.
5) He used the FDK against a War God BECAUSE HE HAD IGNEEL"S POWERUP IN HIM.
Character of statement is of no value as many characters can be wrong in what they say.
You're overlooking the point, him getting favouritism just means character like Gray and Gajeel won't be able to live to their potential. and their potential in their magic and feats is just as better than than Natsu's provided they are put in a equal footing.
Being the main character doesn't mean you'll be the strongest. Plenty of mangas had main characters not even be top 3 in strongest in the end of their respective series.
and being strongest ultimate creation is downfall for Natsu since Gray is a demon killer which adds in the advantage he would have over Natsu.
Yes, they are oneshotting Natsu based on hype and protrayal.
Jura gave Laxus a high level of difficulty and is stated to trained to become even stronger than that.
whereas Bluenote got his ass demolished by Gildartz.
What does Bluenote have that makes him around Jura level?. He's around Current Freed level at this point.
Look at how obvious it is. Has Natsu ever used DF without an eternal source?
So why is it that Natsu uses DF right away right after Igneel is out of his body? That is enough proof right there in the pudding as I'm using common sense. Igneel already stated to Natsu in the Tartaros arc that the reason he stayed in Natsu's body was to control his magic. Did you forget that?
Once again, using tattoos as evidence is not enough proof because he went to Porlyusica to get it cured.
LOL, you're not giving benefit of doubt by stating Gray has improved. You are stating common sense, because Gray has trained for 6+ months, so logically he should improve. Gray's DeS AOE is much larger than his pre-timeskip ice attacks, and he did that casually freezing a portion of a land. that's more than enough to state he has improved. Makarov has stated Gray's power has changed than it was a year ago.
We don't know how Silver froze the giants. He could've had a lot of difficulty in freezing them, wheras Gray did his feats casually, and once again you're showing your opinion is shortsighted and inaccurate because you yourself are using speculations. No, that is once again speculation, we can simply state him having Igneel's powers means he was able to use Dragon King mode on that reason alone, and him simply removing off his bandages, means to use more magical power to face Zeref. nothing to do with him using Dragon King mode by himself.
1)That's beside the point, it doesn't take away the feats Gray gained in the arc in endurance, pain and durability along with more tactic feats and a higher DC as it oneshotted Silver.
and plus Silver obv wasn't holding back by the time Gray started to use Iced Shell.
Silver who has impressive speed couldn't dodge Gray's clones or react to him.
What's your point? Silver being immortal means he could've kept going against Natsu too or any other character as long as Keith isn't dead.
Natsu having more durability than Silver would be quite obvious as Silver is literally a puppet zombie.
Puppet zombies are obviously fragile.
2) So? Just because they were protrayed evenly as a team doesn't mean they are equal. Gray's offensive in DC using Silver's power was shown to be massive and had a larger scale of attacks than his Pre-DeS self. You mentioned Base Natsu not DF Natsu. Either way, Gray logically is low-mid diffing Natsu in this scenario. There's a reason why Gajeel was shitting his pants when he saw Gray in action. Note: It's not just has to do about super effectiveness in magic. Gray had endurance where he saved Natsu from the strongest attack Marde showed and still had more enough than enough to oneshot his opponent, while Natsu had his magic drained and nearly killed because of it.
4)This is your inaccuracy speaking again. You don't know how much powerful Gray has gotten, all the while we saw Base Natsu pretty much going all out. Natsu had to release his full magical reserves to use this feats, while Gray casually did his. Gray releasing his magical reserves on his ice would logically be >>>>>> Base Natsu's scale feats. Bluenote is fodder, quit bringing him up. Gray, Gajeel and Erza will all oneshot him too.
Powerscaling is messed up in this manga, so I don't believe that Dragon Slayer>Demon Slayer nonsense anymore. Even more so in this context since Gray>>>>>>Natsu in magic strength seeing Natsu is a demon after all. Gray's DES should logically destroy Natsu since Natsu being a demon.
5) He used the FDK against a War God BECAUSE HE HAD IGNEEL"S POWERUP IN HIM.
Character of statement is of no value as many characters can be wrong in what they say.
Not sure where you're going with this whole main character thing.
If anything, the main character is generally set up to have the highest potential out of any character. This is especially true in Fairy Tail's case. Natsu's backstory is literally being set up as being the only one that can become strong enough to kill Zeref. He is also trained by Igneel in dragon slaying magic. To top it all off, he has some of the best DC feats in the entire series. So where exactly does Natsu's portrayal work against him? If anything Natsu has better feats than Gray and Gajeel, and better hype. You completely lost me when you said the GOI are oneshotting Natsu based on hype and portrayal.
Bluenote gave Gildarts a high difficulty match. Gildarts was exhausted after he fought Bluenote, and the manga goes out of its way to say the line that Bluenote was someone who went toe to toe with Gildarts. Jura was hyped to be a match for Gildarts. Bluenote was in practice a match for Gildarts. As far as I'm concerened, they are on the same level. There's no reason to assume that Jura trained and Bluenote didn't. Natsu used Dragon Force with his own power during Tartarus. So yes.
Natsu didn't use dragon force right after Igneel left. He spent a good while fighting Mard Geer, before using Dragon Force. Igneel leaving his body was irrelevant. Igneel said that the reason he stayed in Natsu's body was to bide time for Acnologia and create antibodies that will prevent further dragonizing. Those antibodies would still be inside him after he left. Otherwise, there would be no point in making them in the first place. It's quite clear that Silver's power was in Gray's arm, symbolized by the tattoo.
Cana received a tattoo when Mavis gave her Fairy Glitter's power. Natsu received a tattoo when Igneel gave him his power. Most importantly, GRAY received a tattoo when Silver gave him his power. Also, Porlyusica treated Gray for his demon markings - not his tattoo, which was long gone because Silver's power was long gone. It wasn't to cure Gray of it either. It was to control it. Gray still gets demon markings when he uses demon slayer. Makarov never witnessed Silver's power, or saw Gray when he used his power against Mard.
Last time they interacted, Gray was still using Ice-Make. Silver's power ran out by the end of the Tartarus arc, so of course Makarov is surprised that Gray had a new power. Silver had feats just as impressive as Ice-make: Silver.
Even if the freezing of the giant's village took more effort, it was still more impressive AoE-wise because it dwarfs the area Gray froze. More importantly, Ice-Make: Silver has no real DC value. It didn't really do anything against Ajeel, who just broke out of it. Tartarus Gray actually demonstrated attacks that have harmed opponents. Again, I'm willing to say current Gray is stronger...but he simply hasn't been portrayed to be vastly superior in comparison to Silver. It was quite clear that Igneel's power was in Natsu's arm, symbolized by the tattoo.
Zeref only sensed this power right after Natsu removed the tattoo. Natsu used a fire dragon king spell immediately before doing this, and neither Happy (who knows about Natsu's power) or Zeref (who knows what the roar did to his army) gave the same reaction. Natsu has stated over and over again that he can only use Igneel's power once. That simply wouldn't be true if he was using it all the time.
1) Silver throwing the fight speaks volumes about Gray's power-level. Technically, there was nothing stopping Silver from insta-freezing Gray as he was asking him questions. Now granted, the clones caught Silver off guard but that's not a game changer against someone like Natsu. 2) I mentioned Tartarus/GMG Natsu. Everything Natsu did in Tartarus arc was done using his own power, and that includes DF. Gray had Silver's power, and I will admit that Silver is stronger than Natsu. However, the difference isn't huge. The majority of the advantage can be attributed to demon slaying's advantage against demons. Flip this around and have base Gray face Mard Geer, and he wouldn't do nearly as well as Natsu. 4) Since when have we seen base Natsu go all out? We haven't seen base Natsu use a metsu-ryu ogi yet. We've seen Igneel-powered Natsu go all out. We haven't seen what Natsu can do with his own power going all out yet. What we have seen from him is him casually oneshotting Bluenote, which was easily a Jura-tier. 5) Just because he had Igneel's power, it doesn't mean he was using it. We know specifically that Natsu was saving Igneel's power for a big opponent like Zeref. He said so himself.
I talked about That.I said TOH was stronger while His Current DF is 3 Times his Base State which is enough to take down laxus.His Base State is enough to defeat Gray.
This panel shows everyone switching weakness robot opponents: You have Juvia take on the flame type, Gray taking on the the steam type, Mira taking on the brute force type and Lisanna taking on the speed type.
So as you can clearly see, Gray didn't fight the flame type because he's at a disadvantage against flames. And you can't be serious in saying Gray's not serious unless he uses his devil slaying magic. Ice Make Magic is his main go-to magic as its the one he's had the longest. Ice Devil Slayer magic is basically the power-up he got whereas Natsu got Lightning-Flame Dragon mode.
I definitely wouldn't say Gray mastered Devil Slayer magic. Its more like he rushed learning some techniques to use against the Tartarus demons and took them out quickly because of the slayer advantage it gave him. Silver learning Ice DeS magic to take on a flame demon (E.N.D) never really made sense to me, because fundamentally fire >>> ice, and there's no good reason why that real life observation shouldn't be applicable in the manga.
Look at Wendy vs Ezel, she had to eat high quantities of Ethernano in the air to unlock her Dragon Force. Its basically the same case for Natsu, albeit he has gotten help throughout the series. But Natsu has still beaten superior opponents by himself, like Zancrow for example. Zancrow was well above him and had slayer superiority (God Flames > Dragon Flames) but Natsu still won in the end. Natsu's persevered against stronger opponents and won throughout the series with his own power most of the way, even if he did need help to unlock it at times.
DF Natsu didn't do shit to Mard Geer? Natsu went from tickling him with his attacks to sending Mard flying with just a punch, and had Mard shitting himself when he was getting hit. And to add to the sheer power Natsu threw at Mard, his Dragon Slayer Secret Arts nearly took Mard out, but Mard held on, which is when Gray got the last shot in. Mard went from being in really good shape to being extremely close to defeat when Natsu attacked him in Dragon Force; he definitely dealt a fair chunk of damage to Mard with it. Now, I can see you arguing Gray had a better showing in that fight, which he arguably did, but only because of his slayer advantage. Without the advantage it gives him, he wouldn't of done much at all to Mard.
I'm not going to continue this further as its getting off-topic from the actual point of the thread, in NaLu vs Gruvia. Natsu beats Gray with what he has, Juvia beats Lucy but Natsu's magic power sees him > Juvia and that wins NaLu the match. And I say this as Gray has nothing on the level of LFD or Dragon Force. And with his FDK spells which aren't done using Igneel's power there as well, there's no real way for team Gruvia to match that power Natsu can throw at them.
While that's some good proof, it still doesn't conclude anything as far as feat wise go. Gray also wasn't in his des state, so obviously he would've whopped the robot's ass if he did go in that state, but didn't want to waste his energy. Obviously, Gray decided to go in this des state when he faced a spriggan, so yeah your argument is invalid.. It's like saying Natsu is serious when he's using his base mode, and it's stronger than LFD mode. Logic wise sure, but Ice>>>>>>>>>>Fire in this manga, from the feats I have already shown. This is fiction for crying out loud where ice can freeze fire, shadows can hurt people, etc. This isn't pokemon elements.
That's just proves the point there, Hiro Mashima is practically telling us that Fire is weak to Ice, so he learned ice devil slaying magic to destroy a flame demon. How much more proof do you need?
Marde wasn't damaged, he just got blitzed once because Marde was just surprised of his speed, overall Natsu didn't do shit in that fight.
Lmao what? You can't be serious. It was hinted that Marde would've been oneshotted had Gemma not interfered. Marde was hardly damaged by Natsu's onslaught, and he especially didn't weaken Marde to let Gray get oneshot in. Gray got that oneshot in because of his magic being super effective. Heck Gray even said that he would win by himself if he can catch Marde's speed, so no your argument is once again invalid. LOL that's irrelevant. Gray had the better showing. Enduring MM, oneshotting Marde, basically stomping Marde in Base, it's not a competition as to who fared better.
Natsu beats a featless Gray, once Gray gets feat under his belt, he has chances to definitely beat and whop Natsu's ass.
LFD doesn't even exist anymore, and I doubt Natsu can use FDK spells to that level of velocity anymore. People keep forgetting that Natsu gained those feats because of Igneel. After that, we saw how weak he became.
1) Silver throwing the fight speaks volumes about Gray's power-level. Technically, there was nothing stopping Silver from insta-freezing Gray as he was asking him questions. Now granted, the clones caught Silver off guard but that's not a game changer against someone like Natsu.
The level of ignorance is astonishing in your whole post even from skimming your post, especially point one.
I'll let Axel take care the rest of your post.
Silver threw the fight doesn't speak volumes to anything. He threw the fight because he wanted his son to get over Deliora.
Talk to me when Natsu is capable of defeating a character where his magic is absolutely useless against him.
and how that did go again? oh yea, it had Natsu getting his ass stomped by Zancrow and pulling an asspull to win the fight along with Markarov's help.
Silver is Laxus-Erza level in Tartaros.
Gray was handicapped from the start.
Base Gray would do as well as Natsu would if they fought against Marde.
They have shown to have equal CQC, and speed.
I talked about That.I said TOH was stronger while His Current DF is 3 Times his Base State which is enough to take down laxus.His Base State is enough to defeat Gray.
How many times do I have to tell you that DF Natsu doesn't have feats where he's capable of taking down Natsu?
His best feats are against Marde, which didn't do shit to him.
His base state is enough to take down Base Gray. DeS Gray>Natsu by potrayal and hype.
While that's some good proof, it still doesn't conclude anything as far as feat wise go. Gray also wasn't in his des state, so obviously he would've whopped the robot's ass if he did go in that state, but didn't want to waste his energy. Obviously, Gray decided to go in this des state when he faced a spriggan, so yeah your argument is invalid.. It's like saying Natsu is serious when he's using his base mode, and it's stronger than LFD mode. Logic wise sure, but Ice>>>>>>>>>>Fire in this manga, from the feats I have already shown. This is fiction for crying out loud where ice can freeze fire, shadows can hurt people, etc. This isn't pokemon elements.
That's just proves the point there, Hiro Mashima is practically telling us that Fire is weak to Ice, so he learned ice devil slaying magic to destroy a flame demon. How much more proof do you need?
Marde wasn't damaged, he just got blitzed once because Marde was just surprised of his speed, overall Natsu didn't do shit in that fight.
Lmao what? You can't be serious. It was hinted that Marde would've been oneshotted had Gemma not interfered. Marde was hardly damaged by Natsu's onslaught, and he especially didn't weaken Marde to let Gray get oneshot in. Gray got that oneshot in because of his magic being super effective. Heck Gray even said that he would win by himself if he can catch Marde's speed, so no your argument is once again invalid. LOL that's irrelevant. Gray had the better showing. Enduring MM, oneshotting Marde, basically stomping Marde in Base, it's not a competition.
Natsu beats a featless Gray, once Gray gets feat under his belt, he has chances to definitely beat and whop Natsu's ass.
LFD doesn't even exist anymore, and I doubt Natsu can use FDK spells to that level of velocity anymore. People keep forgetting that Natsu gained those feats because of Igneel. After that, we saw how weak he became.
That was not Igneel's Power.He didn't get weak after using FDKM.He haven't fought a Fight since then.IIt is proved That Natsu didn't use Igneel's Powers against others..Daphne Arc,Every Arc Natsu had either defeated Gray or showed Power more than Him.Defeating Mard is not a great Feat because He is IDES.It's like Saying Gray going against MotherGlare.
While that's some good proof, it still doesn't conclude anything as far as feat wise go. Gray also wasn't in his des state, so obviously he would've whopped the robot's ass if he did go in that state, but didn't want to waste his energy. Obviously, Gray decided to go in this des state when he faced a spriggan, so yeah your argument is invalid.. It's like saying Natsu is serious when he's using his base mode, and it's stronger than LFD mode. Logic wise sure, but Ice>>>>>>>>>>Fire in this manga, from the feats I have already shown. This is fiction for crying out loud where ice can freeze fire, shadows can hurt people, etc. This isn't pokemon elements.
That's just proves the point there, Hiro Mashima is practically telling us that Fire is weak to Ice, so he learned ice devil slaying magic to destroy a flame demon. How much more proof do you need?
Marde wasn't damaged, he just got blitzed once because Marde was just surprised of his speed, overall Natsu didn't do shit in that fight.
Lmao what? You can't be serious. It was hinted that Marde would've been oneshotted had Gemma not interfered. Marde was hardly damaged by Natsu's onslaught, and he especially didn't weaken Marde to let Gray get oneshot in. Gray got that oneshot in because of his magic being super effective. Heck Gray even said that he would win by himself if he can catch Marde's speed, so no your argument is once again invalid. LOL that's irrelevant. Gray had the better showing. Enduring MM, oneshotting Marde, basically stomping Marde in Base, it's not a competition as to who fared better.
Natsu beats a featless Gray, once Gray gets feat under his belt, he has chances to definitely beat and whop Natsu's ass.
LFD doesn't even exist anymore, and I doubt Natsu can use FDK spells to that level of velocity anymore. People keep forgetting that Natsu gained those feats because of Igneel. After that, we saw how weak he became.
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The level of ignorance is astonishing in your whole post even from skimming your post, especially point one.
I'll let Axel take care the rest of your post.
Silver threw the fight doesn't speak volumes to anything. He threw the fight because he wanted his son to get over Deliora.
Talk to me when Natsu is capable of defeating a character where his magic is absolutely useless against him.
and how that did go again? oh yea, it had Natsu getting his ass stomped by Zancrow and pulling an asspull to win the fight along with Markarov's help.
Silver is Laxus-Erza level in Tartaros.
Gray was handicapped from the start.
Base Gray would do as well as Natsu would if they fought against Marde.
They have shown to have equal CQC, and speed.
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How many times do I have to tell you that DF Natsu doesn't have feats where he's capable of taking down Natsu?
His best feats are against Marde, which didn't do shit to him.
His base state is enough to take down Base Gray. DeS Gray>Natsu by potrayal and hype.
That was not Igneel's Power.He didn't get weak after using FDKM.He haven't fought a Fight since then.IIt is proved That Natsu didn't use Igneel's Powers against others..Daphne Arc,Every Arc Natsu had either defeated Gray or showed Power more than Him.Defeating Mard is not a great Feat because He is IDES.It's like Saying Gray going against MotherGlare.
Prove it. Burden of proof is on you. When did Natsu defeat Gray in combat?
If you read the manga properly you would know that it was Gray feasting and beating Natsu in two different occasions.
When they were kids, and in avatar arc.
That was not Igneel's Power.He didn't get weak after using FDKM.He haven't fought a Fight since then.IIt is proved That Natsu didn't use Igneel's Powers against others..Daphne Arc,Every Arc Natsu had either defeated Gray or showed Power more than Him.Defeating Mard is not a great Feat because He is IDES.It's like Saying Gray going against MotherGlare.
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Indeed Smiling Natsu in Avatar had destroyed Gray's Ice Casually.
Gray was being casual and dodged Natsu's flames showing no serious attitude. Gray clearly held back.
not to mention the ice was no-named. Nice try to defend your beloved Natsu there.
Defeating Marde who owned LFD Natsu+Dragon twins is a great feat.
not to mention, Natsu got demolished by Motherglare and needed Atlas flame's help.
Prove it. Burden of proof is on you. When did Natsu defeat Gray in combat?
If you read the manga properly you would know that it was Gray feasting and beating Natsu in two different occasions.
When they were kids, and in avatar arc.
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Gray was being casual and dodged Natsu's flames showing no serious attitude. Gray clearly held back.
not to mention the ice was no-named. Nice try to defend your beloved Natsu there.
Defeating Marde who owned LFD Natsu+Dragon twins is a great feat.
not to mention, Natsu got demolished by Motherglare and needed Atlas flame's help.
Prove it. Burden of proof is on you. When did Natsu defeat Gray in combat?
If you read the manga properly you would know that it was Gray feasting and beating Natsu in two different occasions.
When they were kids, and in avatar arc.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Gray was being casual and dodged Natsu's flames showing no serious attitude. Gray clearly held back.
not to mention the ice was no-named. Nice try to defend your beloved Natsu there.
Defeating Marde who owned LFD Natsu+Dragon twins is a great feat.
not to mention, Natsu got demolished by Motherglare and needed Atlas flame's help.
That doesn't prove anything.Sting in GMG managed to give a good Fight to a Dragon but Jura Failed.Based on Your Logic Sting wa stronger than Jura in GMG.
First of All in Avatar Arc It was draw.Non Serious Natsu VS Gray holding back.Second See Daphne Arc.
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That doesn't prove anything.Sting in GMG managed to give a good Fight to a Dragon but Jura Failed.Based on Your Logic Sting wa stronger than Jura in GMG.
You mean Daphne arc which is a filler arc not written by Mashima? and did you forget the fact that Gray let Natsu win so Natsu can fall to a trap?
in the end, Gray actually won that confrontation when you look at what it do the plot.
Sting was fodder against a dragon, he hardly scratched it.
[Mod=SirSamuel016] Please keep discussion civil and on-topic. There's no need to stoop to petty insults if you disagree with someone else's thoughts, interpretations etc. [/mod]
You mean Daphne arc which is a filler arc not written by Mashima? and did you forget the fact that Gray let Natsu win so Natsu can fall to a trap?
in the end, Gray actually won that confrontation when you look at what it do the plot.
Sting was fodder against a dragon, he hardly scratched it.
1)Versus Wiki says Natsu is stronger than laxus.
2)Has Gray produced a City Level Attack like Natsu did against War God.
3)So You are saying Gray can Fight against DF Natsu which is equal To 3 Base Natsu's.
1)Versus Wiki says Natsu is stronger than laxus.
2)Has Gray produced a City Level Attack like Natsu did against War God.
3)So You are saying Gray can Fight against DF Natsu.
1)Not factual, wikia can be edited by anyone.
2)Gray much like Erza didn't get a chance to showcase their skills. Natsu showcase his skills since he wants readers to find out what type of power Igneel is capable of bring, the same type of power Natsu doesn't have anymore since his powerup ran out.
3)DF Natsu is featless in current timeskip, much like Gray is. Gray himself has stated to having a powerup up his sleeves.
Nalu takes it high difficulty, don't need a reason why others have pretty much said what I would say. It's also clear that people are just biased like always.
Silver was holding back and wanted to let Gray kill him. The fact of the matter is that Silver had the ability to launch more lethal attacks at Gray, or go for an instant-freeze while they were chatting. The fact that we know he didn't want to seriously injure Gray tells us a lot about how we should power-rank that fight.
Zancrow was from 2 timeskips ago and is hardly relevant. Also, the way Natsu beat Zancrow was perfectly legit considering Zancrow ate his fire as well. Makarov did next to nothing to help in Natsu's fight. Natsu still would have burned out his power and ate Zancrow's flames. He still would have hit Zancrow with Dragon God's Brilliant Flame.
Base Gray did not have equal movement speed and CQC as DF Natsu. I don't even see how you can argue against this. If that was the case, he would have no problem soloing Mard Geer which clearly was not the case. If anything, DeS Gray had equal movement speed and CQC as base Natsu, and DF Natsu steps it up a notch by actually being able to keep up and land hits against Mard.
Gray wasn't even close to beating Natsu in the avatar arc. They skirmished for like 3 pages. It's not like if this was an all out fight that Gray really had a chance of winning. If he ever drove Natsu to the point of being desperate enough, Natsu simply would have brought out Igneel's power and oneshotted Gray. The manga never showed Natsu and Gray's fight as children. In fact, they didn't even fight as children in the anime. They fought as children in an OVA.
1)Not factual, wikia can be edited by anyone.
2)Gray much like Erza didn't get a chance to showcase their skills. Natsu showcase his skills since he wants readers to find out what type of power Igneel is capable of bring, the same type of power Natsu doesn't have anymore since his powerup ran out.
3)DF Natsu is featless in current timeskip, much like Gray is. Gray himself has stated to having a powerup up his sleeves.
@Axiomus I quote You To Prove That Natsu didn't use Igneel's Powers.
The moment Natsu took off the bandages was a clear indicator that he had started using Ingeel's power. For one, Natsu claimed he can only use Igneel's power once. That simply wouldn't be true if he was using it all the time.
It also doesn't add upwith what went down in the battle. Happywas surprised Natsu was going to use Igneel's power against Zeref so soon, and that was mere moments after Natsu used a Fire Dragon King spell. Happy shouldn't have been surprised Natsu was going to use Igneel's power against Zeref if he was already using Igneel's power against fodders. Zeref sensed, and was impressed by, Igneel's power the moment he took off the bandages. Zeref wasn't impressed by Natsu's Fire Dragon King's roar, despite knowing exactly how many of his troops it took out. However, just the heat Natsu's arm was able to give him pause and that was right at the moment he took off the bandages.
Finally, when Natsu started using Igneel's power, he didn't immediately start using Fire Dragon King spells. He only entered Fire Dragon King modefor his final attack.So He can use that Attacks against Gray.
I think current natsu would beat current gray but as easy as what the people think natsu would win high diff..or maybe draw depends on what gray show us later..
Don't know about lucy and juvia i think juvia wins mid high diff or lucy win extrême diff
Not sure where you're going with this whole main character thing.
If anything, the main character is generally set up to have the highest potential out of any character. This is especially true in Fairy Tail's case. Natsu's backstory is literally being set up as being the only one that can become strong enough to kill Zeref. He is also trained by Igneel in dragon slaying magic. To top it all off, he has some of the best DC feats in the entire series. So where exactly does Natsu's portrayal work against him? If anything Natsu has better feats than Gray and Gajeel, and better hype. You completely lost me when you said the GOI are oneshotting Natsu based on hype and portrayal.
Bluenote gave Gildarts a high difficulty match. Gildarts was exhausted after he fought Bluenote, and the manga goes out of its way to say the line that Bluenote was someone who went toe to toe with Gildarts. Jura was hyped to be a match for Gildarts. Bluenote was in practice a match for Gildarts. As far as I'm concerened, they are on the same level. There's no reason to assume that Jura trained and Bluenote didn't. Natsu used Dragon Force with his own power during Tartarus. So yes.
Natsu didn't use dragon force right after Igneel left. He spent a good while fighting Mard Geer, before using Dragon Force. Igneel leaving his body was irrelevant. Igneel said that the reason he stayed in Natsu's body was to bide time for Acnologia and create antibodies that will prevent further dragonizing. Those antibodies would still be inside him after he left. Otherwise, there would be no point in making them in the first place. It's quite clear that Silver's power was in Gray's arm, symbolized by the tattoo.
Cana received a tattoo when Mavis gave her Fairy Glitter's power. Natsu received a tattoo when Igneel gave him his power. Most importantly, GRAY received a tattoo when Silver gave him his power. Also, Porlyusica treated Gray for his demon markings - not his tattoo, which was long gone because Silver's power was long gone. It wasn't to cure Gray of it either. It was to control it. Gray still gets demon markings when he uses demon slayer. Makarov never witnessed Silver's power, or saw Gray when he used his power against Mard.
Last time they interacted, Gray was still using Ice-Make. Silver's power ran out by the end of the Tartarus arc, so of course Makarov is surprised that Gray had a new power. Silver had feats just as impressive as Ice-make: Silver.
Even if the freezing of the giant's village took more effort, it was still more impressive AoE-wise because it dwarfs the area Gray froze. More importantly, Ice-Make: Silver has no real DC value. It didn't really do anything against Ajeel, who just broke out of it. Tartarus Gray actually demonstrated attacks that have harmed opponents. Again, I'm willing to say current Gray is stronger...but he simply hasn't been portrayed to be vastly superior in comparison to Silver. It was quite clear that Igneel's power was in Natsu's arm, symbolized by the tattoo.
Zeref only sensed this power right after Natsu removed the tattoo. Natsu used a fire dragon king spell immediately before doing this, and neither Happy (who knows about Natsu's power) or Zeref (who knows what the roar did to his army) gave the same reaction. Natsu has stated over and over again that he can only use Igneel's power once. That simply wouldn't be true if he was using it all the time.
1) Silver throwing the fight speaks volumes about Gray's power-level. Technically, there was nothing stopping Silver from insta-freezing Gray as he was asking him questions. Now granted, the clones caught Silver off guard but that's not a game changer against someone like Natsu. 2) I mentioned Tartarus/GMG Natsu. Everything Natsu did in Tartarus arc was done using his own power, and that includes DF. Gray had Silver's power, and I will admit that Silver is stronger than Natsu. However, the difference isn't huge. The majority of the advantage can be attributed to demon slaying's advantage against demons. Flip this around and have base Gray face Mard Geer, and he wouldn't do nearly as well as Natsu. 4) Since when have we seen base Natsu go all out? We haven't seen base Natsu use a metsu-ryu ogi yet. We've seen Igneel-powered Natsu go all out. We haven't seen what Natsu can do with his own power going all out yet. What we have seen from him is him casually oneshotting Bluenote, which was easily a Jura-tier. 5) Just because he had Igneel's power, it doesn't mean he was using it. We know specifically that Natsu was saving Igneel's power for a big opponent like Zeref. He said so himself.
What's the confusion, I'm being pretty clear at this point.
Irrelevant, this logic doesn't apply to Fairy tail. Acnologia will always be ahead of a fully dragonized Natsu and so would the god of death Anksheram. Heck I doubt Natsu would be as powerful as his dragon father Igneel, or the first generation dragons. Haru who had the most potential was not shown to be the strongest in Hiro Mashima's previous work. Given how much Hiro loves to recycle ideas from his previous mangas, Natsu stands no chance to be the strongest. Now with Natsu knowing that Zeref's death will also equal his death, it means Natsu if he had any ounce of intelligence left would not strive to be stronger than Zeref. Laxus, Jellal, Gildartz have far better DC than Natsu, so false there. Heck GMG ISD Roar from Gajeel had far better potency than any of Natsu's attacks. Natsu doesn't have better hype than Gray and Gajeel. END Does, so Try again.
GOI are oneshotting Natsu based on hype and protrayal, because they are the strongest continental mages on the planet. Heck a former GOI would definitely oneshot Natsu in God Serena.
No he didn't, Gildartz two-three shotted Bluenote. Only reason why Gildartz received this much difficulty was becuase of Plot PIS, where Azuma interefered in their magic and diminished Gildartz's MP, once the play was in even field, Gildartz one punched him out.
At most Bluenote gave him a low-mid difficulty battle. Gildartz even mentioned he got tired quickly is becauase of his age. Except there is proof where Jura trained, while no word of mention is made of Bluenote training. Infact he became much weaker.
Indeed.
Natsu exhausted his magical reserves, and due to power of feelings was able to use DF. Igneel leaving his body isn't irrelevant, don't deny manga canon. There's a reason Natsu was able to use DF for the first time, and it's no coincidence it happens when Igneel leaves his body. Igneel also said he wanted to control Natsu's powers. In the movie canon, we saw Natsu being half dragonized arms, so clearly those antibodies had no effect.
No it wasn't, Silver only transferred his magic to Gray, not his magic level or anything of that sort. Cana received a tatoo because of a spell, while Gray received it because of a mode. For all we know that tatooo could've beeen sealed under Gray's des marks, and we can't see it because of the curse marks that are corroding half of Gray's body.
Irrelevant. Gray used a new power, which signifies that his power level is changing based on Makarov's reaction. He said his magic level isn't the same as it was a year ago, not his form of magic. There's a difference.
First of all you don't know how Silver froze the giant's village, so don't make any assumptions and speculation. Silver could've exhausted his whole magical reserves into freezing those giants which obviously would have more AOE, while Gray casually used Ice Make: Silver, with one hand. If Gray uses all out in using attacks then logically he would have better AOE than Silver's freezing giant feats. , Ofcourse Ajeel would break out of it, he's a spriggan 12 and was stomping Erza until plot came over. If Ajeel didn't break out of that, he would be fodder if he's that below the main characters in power.
It's not as clear as you think it means. He used Igneel's power against Zeref. It also means, there is a belief that he took on Igneel's MP level of power to bust up those atacks, which was why he was using flame dragon mode on the War God, so Igneel's MP obviously played a part in Natsu's DC. In a years of training it is illogical to believe Natsu is capable of oneshotting Bluenote, and a WarGod. Natsu at base has better feats than DF Natsu, so tell me how that is logical of Natsu not using Igneel's power to demonstrate those feats.
1)No it isn't. Plus that was Ice Make Gray, and Current Gray can low diff that version of Gray. I can play this card too: Technically there was nothing stopping Gray from using his iced clones, and oneshotting Silver when Silver was standing around. Yes it is a game changer against Natsu given how Silver blitzed past Natsu and has much better speed movement feats than him. He can freaking teleport ffs.
This was debunked by Axel regardless.
2. To clarify now, 2. Gray had Silver's magic, not his power. The MP he used in that battle is by far his own. He demonstrated to have torn up more of Marde's thorn compared to Natsu. Gray was somewhat nerfed in that battle so Natsu can be protrayed to fight even with him. The difference is huge when you look at their respective DC, along with level of durability and endurance which Gray shown to boost more than Natsu in that fight. If you flip them around, Base Gray would fare just as well as Base Natsu, since they have equal speed movement, and CQC (which was further illustrated in their battle in Avatar arc).
Base Natsu going out = LFD Natsu. So Base Natsu has gone all out multiple amount of times. Natsu used a metsur-ryo ogi against Tempesta, so clearly Natsu was going all out back then. There's no indication of Bluenote being in the same tier as Gildartz, someone who low-mid diffed Bluenote. Now you believe Base Natsu is capable of oneshotting Jura? Ridiculous overhyping of Natsu. Jura gave Tartaros Laxus a high diff fight, so essentially you're implying current Base Natsu is capable of oneshotting Tartaros Laxus with his own power and not Igneel's *faceplam
Playing the same card, Just because he had Igneel's power it means he was using it. He was saving Igneel's overall power against Zeref, it doesn't mean he didn't rely on Igneel's power to perform this feats specifically when he used flame dragon king mode prior to his battle with Zeref.
Silver was holding back and wanted to let Gray kill him. The fact of the matter is that Silver had the ability to launch more lethal attacks at Gray, or go for an instant-freeze while they were chatting. The fact that we know he didn't want to seriously injure Gray tells us a lot about how we should power-rank that fight.
Zancrow was from 2 timeskips ago and is hardly relevant. Also, the way Natsu beat Zancrow was perfectly legit considering Zancrow ate his fire as well. Makarov did next to nothing to help in Natsu's fight. Natsu still would have burned out his power and ate Zancrow's flames. He still would have hit Zancrow with Dragon God's Brilliant Flame.
Base Gray did not have equal movement speed and CQC as DF Natsu. I don't even see how you can argue against this. If that was the case, he would have no problem soloing Mard Geer which clearly was not the case. If anything, DeS Gray had equal movement speed and CQC as base Natsu, and DF Natsu steps it up a notch by actually being able to keep up and land hits against Mard.
Gray wasn't even close to beating Natsu in the avatar arc. They skirmished for like 3 pages. It's not like if this was an all out fight that Gray really had a chance of winning. If he ever drove Natsu to the point of being desperate enough, Natsu simply would have brought out Igneel's power and oneshotted Gray. The manga never showed Natsu and Gray's fight as children. In fact, they didn't even fight as children in the anime. They fought as children in an OVA.
Sure he was holding back, All of Silver's lethal attacks were either tanked or endured by Gray, so what he shown in the battle is his most powerful attacks. Silver did have the intention to seriously injure Gray, which is why he apologized to Gray because of it and said "How can I look you in the eyes when I hurted you so much"? Technically there was nothing stopping Gray from using his iced clones, and oneshotting Silver when Silver was standing around. Yes it is a game changer against Natsu given how Silver blitzed past Natsu and has much better speed movement feats than him. He can freaking teleport ffs.
It's relevant based on how the argument you are throtting out as it's the same level of examle here. It wasn't a legit win, it was a risk and can be considered an asspull. Makarov even mentioned Natsu would've died but instead he got lucky. and you know why he got lucky? Becuase of plot and being a MC. Makarov did next to nothing? I suggest you re-read the fight and become aware of the fact that Makarov held Zancrow back with his giant arm here:
Which gave Natsu enough time to empty his tank and absorb god flames ( an asspull strategy)
This falls in line with the whole "Silver holding back/Not using instant freeze" counter you surely like to use.
Not to mention, Fukurou oneshotted Natsu. A character Gray defeated. It must really mean Natsu is fodder then right?
Base Gray has the same level of speed movement and CQC as Base Nasu. there's nothing indicating that he didn't. They have always been protrayed to having the same movement speed and CQC as each other. Why deny this? To make your argument more credible? Base Gray wouldn't solo Marde because he wouldn't be able to use Demon Slaying magic. False. Des Gray has shown to have better CQC and speed movement than Base Natsu as he crushed more thorns with his punches, and was shown to move faster and plan quicker than Natsu. DF Natsu simply caught Marde off guard, and during their exchanges, Marde got the upperhand on DF Natsu and tanked his attacks.
No one said Gray was close to beating Natsu in the avatar arc. However Gray had the advantage with support from his avatar comrades. The OVA was made and endorsed by Mashima which explains why Natsu got the scar, hence it's canon that Gray defeated Natsu when they were children. and now Natsu doesn't have the luxury of using Igneel's power anymore. So what he does now is his own feats. Using the daphne filler arc as a main level of counter is laughable and made me chuckle, it was debunked regardless.
@Axiomus I quote You To Prove That Natsu didn't use Igneel's Powers.
The moment Natsu took off the bandages was a clear indicator that he had started using Ingeel's power. For one, Natsu claimed he can only use Igneel's power once. That simply wouldn't be true if he was using it all the time.
It also doesn't add upwith what went down in the battle. Happywas surprised Natsu was going to use Igneel's power against Zeref so soon, and that was mere moments after Natsu used a Fire Dragon King spell. Happy shouldn't have been surprised Natsu was going to use Igneel's power against Zeref if he was already using Igneel's power against fodders. Zeref sensed, and was impressed by, Igneel's power the moment he took off the bandages. Zeref wasn't impressed by Natsu's Fire Dragon King's roar, despite knowing exactly how many of his troops it took out. However, just the heat Natsu's arm was able to give him pause and that was right at the moment he took off the bandages.
Finally, when Natsu started using Igneel's power, he didn't immediately start using Fire Dragon King spells. He only entered Fire Dragon King modefor his final attack.So He can use that Attacks against Gray.
I have already debunked this. Natsu oneshotting WarGod and Bluenote was done by Igneel's MP. So he was still using Igneel's magical reserves to defeat them. Which also explains why Natsu stated "Flame Dragon King Mode Destruction" against WarGod.
Natsu by his own power would not oneshot Bluenote and WarGod. So your argument is irrelevant.
He can't currently use Fire Dragon King mode until proven that he can.
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