Discussion What is a True Pirate King?

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well...

Spoiler

I think Edward disagrees. He, without a doubt, was talking in this picture about the people of D. and it's will... but in the full speech, denotes that Roger waits for someone qualified to find something, and Newgate claims that Teach isn't that one.

Actually, it's not that he disagrees (which he doesn't), he's talking about something different from what Pirate King is, something far more nuanced and specific.

No where does it state that the Pirate King is the man who one of this days will fight for this world and engulf the world in a war. Roger certainly didn't do that, yet he was Pirate King. Roger didn't stop the 400 year war between the Shandians and Skypieans, yet, he was Pirate King; this is a nuanced topic.

Pirate King is whomever finds One Piece which can theoretically be anyone; the person who Whitebeard is talking about is a specific person.

Do you know who else says exactly the same thing as Whitebeard? Queen Otohime as the panels below shows.

Whitebeard:That will has been passed down from long ago!! And in the future,,,someday, a man will appear, bearing the weight of the centuries of history on his shoulders to challenge the world. Sengoku... Your World Government is afraid... afraid of the coming war that will engulf the world!!! I wasn't interested, but when someone finds that treasure... the world will be shaken to its core!! Somebody will find it...that day will certainly come.

Queen Otohime: It is further told that one will appear with the power to guide that Mermaid - to guide Shirahoshi, to show her the right path, and the correct way to user her ability. And it is said that when that time comes, a great change will come upon the world...!!!

They're not talking about the Pirate King, but a saviour, a chosen person; It's a prophecy so to speak.Don't forget what Whitebeard is saying is more or less a paraphrase of what Queen Otohime is saying, so, that tells us what he's stating really directly has nothing to do with Pirate King as I'll point out in my next statement.

Just to put things into perspective, Queen Otohime (& Whitebeard) are talking about what Joyboy said which goes back 800 years ago, and bare in mind that all the Poneglyphs, the Ancient Weapons, the conflict all dates back 800 years ago roughly. If Roger was still alive, he'd be 77 years old; One Piece (Ancient Weapons, Poneglyphs, Joyboy, Ancient Kingdom) made these proclamations before Roger was even born, and he was the first Pirate King, so these prophecies are not talking about a Pirate King per se, but a specific individual, a saviour; anyone can technically be Pirate King, only a specific person can be this saviour.

Again, Whitebeard stated whoever found One Piece will throw the world into a war, Roger did find One Piece. If the prophecies were talking about a Pirate King who Roger was, it means the prophecies are false because they've been contradicted; Roger never saved the world. Just like Teach, even Roger isn't the one; remember that the history, the creation of the Poneglyphs, the words of Joyboy precedes Roger, so it's not even that Roger was waiting for a specific someone, more like Joyboy (the Ancient Kingdom's representative) was waiting for a specific someone.

The thing however is that they're indirectly related in a sense. The difference between Pirate King Roger and Pirate King Luffy is, Luffy will actually save the world because he's the chosen saviour; the ideal Pirate King, because there's no such thing.

Concerning Whitebeard stating Teach is not the One

If you remember, Joyboy had the NOAH built and told the Fishmen to protect it until someone comes in his stead to fulfil the promise because he could no longer fulfil the promise.

Joyboy's desire is pointing towards the abolishing of slavery and uniting of all species and races; the Celestial Dragons consider themselves superior, so of course, they'd like to maintain this structure of ruler-ship; opposing ideals is what led to their 100 year war. Joyboy is an important individual from the Ancient Kingdom which can be deduced because only those from the Kingdom should be able to write in the language which he's done; the D. are the people from this Ancient Kingdom.

The Will of D is more or less the fulfilment of the goal that the Ancient Kingdom had, but don't forget that all information regarding the Ancient Kingdom and its weapons are hidden from the public; Pirate King is just whomever finds this information and weapons, that's exactly what One Piece is (the vast majority are clueless as to what it is).

Also, only those of the D disposition have been able to hear the voice of the Ancient Weapons and the Voice of all things, so it is their destiny to fulfil this will.

All Whitebeard is saying is that Teach is not the one who will fulfil this wish because he's selfish and has no inclination towards freedom and justice; whoever will carry this out has to be someone who has a strong sense of justice which both Luffy and Ace have been shown to possess.

The Will of D and One Piece, they're all interrelated, they converge.

For detailed analysis of Will of D if interested: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/pandoras-box-one-piece.3004305/

Anyways, i liked your example, i began to think how companies try to contract only that kind of ideal people, i've fallen with that, my previous one thought i wasn't qualified

Business and politics, can be awful, lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2016 ---

The implications of finding One Piece are catastrophic in the wrong hands due to the fact it includes the Ancient Weapons which make one's military power and political influence subsequently unrivalled as Crocodile surmised⁽¹⁹³⁾.

In conclusion, Pirate King is whomever can both Conquer the Grand Line and obtain One Piece, they'd not only be the most physically powerful, but also politically due to the Ancient Weapons & acquired knowledge.

Pirate King is just whomever finds this information and weapons, that's exactly what One Piece is (the vast majority are clueless as to what it is).

The Will of D and One Piece, they're all interrelated, they converge.

Seems the deductions I've made have finally been confirmed. We know to be Pirate King, one has to conquer the Grand Line and fine One Piece. This is saying obtaining the secrets to the world via Poneglyph is how one becomes Pirate King, therefore, the Poneglyphs in their entirety is more or less One Piece.

• The secrets of the world is more or less One Piece (something that has existed for 900+ years).

• Roger coined the term "One Piece", the Poneglyph and all its information pre-existed Roger which means as stated before... One Piece is the treasure Roger accumulated and kept in the same location as the "Secret of the world" that we get from the Poneglyphs.
• People are only interested in the treasure, but the real issue is the secret of the world that will be found besides the treasure which is the information.

• Pirate King is merely the title to whomever finds this information.
• Being that One Piece is 900+ years old, it means Roger wasn't the creator, he was just the one who named all the information on the Poneglyphs together "One Piece" along with the added bonus of treasure which Pirates are drawn to.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2016 ---

We learn from Chapter 847 the importance of power in the aim to become Pirate King in order to obtain the Poneglyphs required to ultimately acquire the One Piece (secret of the world).

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

he says that strength does not interest him,

It is important. That's why Rayleigh trained him. One cannot become Pirate King without strength. Pirate King is the strongest Pirate because it requires defeating all other Emperors in order to become Pirate. If strength wasn't necessary, he wouldn't have taken 2 years to train. Even if it's to protect Nakama, it'd be to protect them from being killed by the Yonko, so strength is fundamental.

He never one said strength is not important, in fact, he says the opposite.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Are you talking of Moria? Moria power is the manipulation of shadows. The shadows aren't his power, so him getting knock down doesn't mean that the shadows get back to their previous owner. What stops is the manipulation, but the shadows inside of other bodies aren't constantly being manipulated, the manipulation ended as soon as they went in another body. That was explained in that arc by Moria himself.
Big Mom has a similar kind of fruit. If she gets knock out the Seducing woods will not suddenly become inanimate. Or Prometeus and Zeus will stop.

The KO stoping the power happened with 2 characters. Van der Decken in which an object unnaturally will keep following somebody. And Sugar where a person would transform into a Toy and the rest of the people would get their memories about the toy erased.
Note that they don't manipulate anything, they added a new characteristic to something else. That new characteristic stops.
Also note that Moria had an ability that added a new characteristic to something! The "Shadow Revolution" technique. When he was knocked out, it stopped and Oz wasn't able to do Gomu Gomu no Attacks anymore.

That is your explanation, and I could give you the exact opposite explanation that would fit to say that all powers should have been cancelled but that's not the point. Oda did not extensively explain it and just turn around it for the convenience of the story.

You're trying to complicate and change what I said. Luffy wants to be Pirate King! Pirate King is the most powerful, famous and wealthy person in the world. Both those things are facts. What you're arguing is not what I'm arguing. For Example: If you have somebody that wants to be the biggest Terrorist, and he going after a legendary person that achieved that by terrorizing and killing a lot of people. It doesn't change the fact that somebody isn't in the side of Morality just because his concept of biggest Terrorist is some fairy tail goody good concept.
Oda did the first page of the manga and until now he didn't changed it nor refuted iy, so yes the Pirate King is the strongest , most famous and wealhty outlaw, and Luffy want to get his title too.

No, again that is not what the pirate king is. Reread the manga. White beard was the most famous and strongest pirate, was he pirate king? no.
And your comparison does not make any sense. I am not complicatd things. Since Roger, the pirate king would be the one who will make it to Raftel / Find the One Piece. And again Luffy does not care about fame or money.

Now about the plot armor. Doflamingo fight and actions. He didn't use is manipulation power in the fight nor before, now instead of just shouting plot armor, you should try to see if there is any possibe reasons why he didn't use it. There are a lot of possible reasons, people normally don't spawn in every situation all their attacks, so just so happen that the manipulation was one not spawned.
Also note, that is not like he can control anybody and in any situation. He wasn't able to control Fujitora, nor Jozu. He also only used it when Luffy was weakened and still for a good time(THe same happened with Bellamy). Note also how he never made the manipulate attack during a one on one with anybody. In such a situation the closest he ever did was web, that stopped the enemy movement not controlled them.

Seriously, have you been reading the manga? Doflamingo each time he was shown was using the manipulation technique: at the Shichibukai meeting, in the fight between Bellamy and Sarquiss, at the World summit againt whitebeard's commanders, on PH, on Dressrosa.... EVERY TIME. Never in a one vs one? What about against Sanji?
And suddendly, in fight against Luffy ooops he forgets his favorite / strongest technique?... Of course you can look for reasons, but since Oda never gave any, you have plot armor.

That Doflamingo didn't used the manipulation in moments where it would be good to use it. It just shows that people and in this case Doflaminog aren't perfect and don't do the most favorable actions most of the time.

Sorry, but this is a very weak explanation, and does not fit the character.

What is the difference between the fiction story and non fiction story? Does non fiction stories also have Plot Armour, given that they also have Plot and same kind of situation a non fiction story has? Or the same exact thing only is Plot Armour if done in Fiction?
SH have to survive, but a main character of a veridict story also has to survive to keep going. "A death may happen but nothing were most will die before the end".
So, does a non fiction story like that also has Plot Armor?

Take the damages Zoro took in real life, will see if this is not plot armor.

Hannybal Psyche: Never said that strength was not important, (if you quote, take the full sentence) but just Luffy does not care as such. He wants to be strong to protect his friends, not to be the strongest per se.

 

[Enima]

Seriously, have you been reading the manga? Doflamingo each time he was shown was using the manipulation technique: at the Shichibukai meeting, in the fight between Bellamy and Sarquiss, at the World summit againt whitebeard's commanders, on PH, on Dressrosa.... EVERY TIME. Never in a one vs one? What about against Sanji?
And suddendly, in fight against Luffy ooops he forgets his favorite / strongest technique?... Of course you can look for reasons, but since Oda never gave any, you have plot armor.

He does use it at one point when Luffy was weakened. But Luffy activated G4 and broke through the strings. People who are strong enough can resist his manipulation. And it's not Doflamingo's strongest technique.

Take the damages Zoro took in real life, will see if this is not plot armor.

Zoro is superhuman. If there is a guy strong enough to cut a train in half, then yeah he can probably take the same amount of damage that Zoro took, and survive.

Never said that strength was not important, (if you quote, take the full sentence) but just Luffy does not care as such. He wants to be strong to protect his friends, not to be the strongest per se.

So he wants to be strong enough to protect his friends even if the strongest man in the world attacks them. In other words, he wants to become the strongest person in the world.

Oda must punish his characters for recklessness. Tell me why didnt katakuri simply stab chopper with his weapon right in the beginning.
Too much of convinience & too much of luck (under that chosen one excuse or for any other reason) is simply put bad writing.

Perospero was gonna let them go because they weren't a threat, but they challenged him. He was gonna kill them in a slow and painful manner because they challenged him. Katakuri said that the chances of the straw hats making it alive from Big Mom was zero. So Perespero didn't think that they were gonna be saved. They weren't a threat, they aren't like Luffy. Perespero was simply killing them for fun. He likes to torture and humiliate his enemies (his DF ability is perfect for that purpose).

 

[Ketimatsu]

He does use it at one point when Luffy was weakened. But Luffy activated G4 and broke through the strings. People who are strong enough can resist his manipulation. And it's not Doflamingo's strongest technique.

I know, and back then it was a cheap trick, I get big muscles, the strings break.... we can assume it does not work on some people, but he never said anything about the restrictions. And yes, until the cheap trick, never saw anybody who could do anything against it.

Zoro is superhuman. If there is a guy strong enough to cut a train in half, then yeah he can probably take the same amount of damage that Zoro took, and survive.

Zoro is a "normal" human in the world of One Piece, you cut him he bleeds, cut his head he dies. Nothing to do with his sword skills.

So he wants to be strong enough to protect his friends even if the strongest man in the world attacks them. In other words, he wants to become the strongest person in the world.

Did he say that? He did not. He felt like that he should have trained 10 years more probably. Ultimately him wanting to be strong and becoming pirate king are different things.

Perospero was gonna let them go because they weren't a threat, but they challenged him. He was gonna kill them in a slow and painful manner because they challenged him. Katakuri said that the chances of the straw hats making it alive from Big Mom was zero. So Perespero didn't think that they were gonna be saved. They weren't a threat, they aren't like Luffy. Perespero was simply killing them for fun. He likes to torture and humiliate his enemies (his DF ability is perfect for that purpose).

You assume all that. And sure how credible is that then: SH are dead, meaning Big Mom is coming after his head and he was not so confident about that 3 chapters ago, but the guy is taking time to fool around.
No need for explanation it is the most basic plot of movies, mangas, always a bad situation where the guy should die immediately but the bad one starts thinking about creative ways to kill that will take forever and give enough time so he can escape.
The problem is not that it is a plot, but poorly written.

 

[Ketimatsu]

You didn't see anybody do anything against it because Doflamingo doesn't usually use it against someone he considers strong. Doffy ain't gonna be going around trying to manipulate whitebeard or Aokiji because he knows they can break his strings. Unless it's stated it works against enemies stronger than him we have to assume that it only works against weaker opponents.

Commanders of WB, weak, Sanji, weak, Smoker weak. Ahaha seriously you have no clue about that. It is just assumptions, and we do not have to assume anything no. So still no clue about the mechanisms and the restrictions behind it. I see no reason to discuss things we do not know, it will go nowhere.

He is not a normal person. He is tougher than a normal person. He'll only die if he lost too much blood.

He is, he does not have a devil fruit or anything like that, that is what I meant. So if he loses his head, he will not die? Interesting. And seeing how much blood he lost already, well....

Dude, he never said that because it's obvious. He can't become the pirate king without being the strongest man in the world. He ca't protect his friends from everyone unless he becomes the most powerful man in the world. If a guy says he wants to become a scientist he doesn't need to specify the fact that he needs to be smart.

Pirate King is not about strength, and still, what is the point in this answer. I just say that strength as such does not interest him and that being the strongest person in the world and the pirate king are two different things. He is not Zorro who wants to be the strongest swordman.

No. Torturing your enemies is something that has existed for centuries. Don't tell me you didn't know about that?
What else do you want him to do? He managed to postpone his death. There is nothing he can do at this point.

Ah yes yes I am very familiar with the "hey look your friends are going to save you, so I will take forever to kill you and give them enough time to kick my ass".
If you are not familiar with such a plot, well get updated, watch James Bond Movies, and this has nothing to do with torture.

I do not even argue about the way, but the three minutes is a cheap trick, and a repetition of Mr 3. That is what I call poor writing. Which was way better, only the fact that he was speeding up the process when Luffy arrived makes it better.

And this is a bad translation, what actually says, he is that if he should be ready to beat them, not that he has to, to become Pirate King

 

[I Am Atomic]

Commanders of WB, weak, Sanji, weak, Smoker weak. Ahaha seriously you have no clue about that. It is just assumptions, and we do not have to assume anything no. So still no clue about the mechanisms and the restrictions behind it. I see no reason to discuss things we do not know, it will go nowhere.

Commander Atmos is Weak!

So what is weak? To Doflamingo, anyone who is way below his combat prowess is weak to him. Anyone who is not strong enough to break or catch his strong is weak!

Next is Jozu. We see that he was caught by Doflamingo but that's it. We don't see him use Jozu like a puppet like he did with Atmos. Jozu's brute strength is very high, it should be enough to break the strings like Luffy did.

Smoker is WEAK! G2 Luffy can whoop his ass, np.

Sanji is not strong enough to beat Doflamingo. However, I cannot call him weak. Sanji had no knowledge about Doflamingo's DF and Sanji had to rush in like an idiot without analysing his opponent because he had to save his crew. Sanji is the best CoO user of the crew, he should have seen the strings if he fought with a cool head.

He also did it against Law, right before his arm was sliced off. Law wasn't strong enough to break it.

Finally Luffy. In those initial instances Doflamingo had no reason to use it. First instant, Luffy saved Kyros, right afterwards he was thrown all the way down by Pica. So they did not get to fight. Second instant, Law+Luffy v Doflamingo. He couldn't use it because he was fighting Law. After Gamma Knife, their actual battle began. Luffy used G4. He stood no chance against that form. Even with awakening Luffy busted his way through the strings. Finally, he used his strings against Luffy to hold him like he did with Sanji and Jozu. Luffy broke it using G4.

Like @Enima said, Doflamingo cannot utilise that technique against strong people.

In the anime, Fujitora caught Doflamingo's parasite string. Non canon I know, but that is what will happen against strong people.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2017 ---

Ultimately him wanting to be strong and becoming pirate king are different things.

This would have been true if it wasn't for the definition of Luffy's PK being different.

PK - The one who finds One Piece
Luffy's PK - Pirate who has the most freedom in the sea

The first one you can stumble upon One Piece and u become the PK.

Luffy promised Shanks that he will make a pirate crew that will defeat Shank's crew. Luffy is after strength.
After Sabo's death, Luffy cries and says he wants to become stronger. Luffy is after strength.
After Ace's death, in Rusukania he tells Jinbe that he wants to become stronger. Luffy is after strength.

Each time he said this he lost something dear to him. Shank's arm, Sabo and Ace respectively. So Luffy is after strength because he wants to protect his friends. So the PK he is after is to have the most freedom. No one will block his way when having adventures. No one will stop him. No one would dare. Why? Because he is strong.

He doesn't care about One Piece. It is already proven in SA. Luffy also explained what a PK is to Rayleigh in SA. One Piece is only a reason for him to have adventures.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2017 ---

Ah yes yes I am very familiar with the "hey look your friends are going to save you, so I will take forever to kill you and give them enough time to kick my ass".

@Enima already explained the reason. Perospero was 100% certain that Luffy and co were dead! So he decided to have fun and torture Chopper. Then he saw Luffy and co emerging from the forest and attacked them with Candy Maiden.

So you want to know why Perospero did not kill Chopper right then? He had no reason to. Chopper and Brook are disabled. Luffy is charging towards the ship, which Perospero is on. The only sensible thing to do is attack Luffy.

Then there is the scene where Perospero was talking to judge instead of killing them. Why? It is Perospero (and nearly every villain's) quirk. Make fun of them before killing them.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2017 ---

And this is a bad translation, what actually says, he is that if he should be ready to beat them, not that he has to, to become Pirate King

Agreed. He wants to be strong enough to fight them and defeat them, otherwise he cannot be the PK.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And this is a bad translation, what actually says, he is that if he should be ready to beat them, not that he has to, to become Pirate King

Wrong. The official VIZ Translation is saying the same thing.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Wrong. The official VIZ Translation is saying the same thing.

[/

Well it was badly translated then. Would not be the first time in "official" translations. And that is Luffy talking... always crushing everybody anyway.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well it was badly translated then. Would not be the first time in "official" translations. And that is Luffy talking... always crushing everybody anyway.

That is not official translation. I gave the official translation, therefore, it is correct. It is his duty as the captain and the protagonist.

 

[Enima]

Commanders of WB, weak, Sanji, weak, Smoker weak. Ahaha seriously you have no clue about that. It is just assumptions, and we do not have to assume anything no. So still no clue about the mechanisms and the restrictions behind it. I see no reason to discuss things we do not know, it will go nowhere.

Not assuming anything. If two people have a tug of war and one person loses then we have to assume that he is weaker than the winner.

He is, he does not have a devil fruit or anything like that, that is what I meant. So if he loses his head, he will not die? Interesting. And seeing how much blood he lost already, well....

Spoiler

As far as I know this is the largest amount of damage he's ever received. You can easily find people in worse conditions, and they survived.

Pirate King is not about strength, and still, what is the point in this answer. I just say that strength as such does not interest him and that being the strongest person in the world and the pirate king are two different things. He is not Zorro who wants to be the strongest swordman.

Pirate king is not only about strength, there are many other important elements to it. But to become the pirate king strength is essential, you have to be the strongest man in the world to become pirate king.

Luffy's definition of pirate king:-
The man with the most freedom=The man who's freedom cannot be taken from him=The man from whom you cannot take anything=The man who can stop anyone=The man who can stop the strongest man in the world=The strongest man in the world.

Ah yes yes I am very familiar with the "hey look your friends are going to save you, so I will take forever to kill you and give them enough time to kick my ass".
If you are not familiar with such a plot, well get updated, watch James Bond Movies, and this has nothing to do with torture.

I do not even argue about the way, but the three minutes is a cheap trick, and a repetition of Mr 3. That is what I call poor writing. Which was way better, only the fact that he was speeding up the process when Luffy arrived makes it better.

Dude, google "torture" . The definition fits what Perespero is doing right now.

That's not a cheap trick. Even in real life, most snakes' poison won't instantly kill you. That's how people survive snake bites. Are you telling me they all have plot armor. As I already mentioned, Perspero was torturing them.

And this is a bad translation, what actually says, he is that if he should be ready to beat them, not that he has to, to become Pirate King

1. I should be ready to beat the top 4 smartest people in the world but I don't have to become the smartest person in the world.
2. I should be richer than the top 4 richest people in the world but I don't have to become the richest person in the world.
3. I should be ready to be able to outrun the top 4 fastest people in the world but I don't have to become the fastest person in the world.

Does any of that make any sense to you?

Could also be totally that it does not work against Conqueror Haki users. Or that his power is weak against others, Aokiji freezing the strings (like Hyoga in Saint Seyar) or Akainu burning them. Strength may not play a role at all. And there you go. I do not need Oda's explanations either. But without Oda writing it clearly, this is just a matter of assumptions and there is no debate to have.

Why do you think I can't just tie myself to an elephant and pull it?

1. It has conquerors haki
2. It can burn the rope
3. It can Freeze the rope
4. It's stronger than me

You can even try it with a human stronger than yourself.

 

[M3J]

No, again that is not what the pirate king is. Reread the manga. White beard was the most famous and strongest pirate, was he pirate king? no.
And your comparison does not make any sense. I am not complicatd things. Since Roger, the pirate king would be the one who will make it to Raftel / Find the One Piece. And again Luffy does not care about fame or money.



Seriously, have you been reading the manga? Doflamingo each time he was shown was using the manipulation technique: at the Shichibukai meeting, in the fight between Bellamy and Sarquiss, at the World summit againt whitebeard's commanders, on PH, on Dressrosa.... EVERY TIME. Never in a one vs one? What about against Sanji?
And suddendly, in fight against Luffy ooops he forgets his favorite / strongest technique?... Of course you can look for reasons, but since Oda never gave any, you have plot armor.

Take the damages Zoro took in real life, will see if this is not plot armor.

Hannybal Psyche: Never said that strength was not important, (if you quote, take the full sentence) but just Luffy does not care as such. He wants to be strong to protect his friends, not to be the strongest per se.

but Whitebeard could have become a pirate king if he wanted to. He chose to not care about that and instead, focus on building a family. He never had any aspiration to become a pirate king, despite what Ace thought. And it's silly to bring up real life as OP is pretty unrealistic, even if it's just durability/taking damages.

Dude, he never said that because it's obvious. He can't become the pirate king without being the strongest man in the world. He ca't protect his friends from everyone unless he becomes the most powerful man in the world. If a guy says he wants to become a scientist he doesn't need to specify the fact that he needs to be smart.

He can be the pirate king without being the strongest man, especially if his crew is pretty strong in their own rights. As long as Luffy's able to beat even those who's stronger than he is, he can still become a pirate king.

 

[Enima]

He can be the pirate king without being the strongest man, especially if his crew is pretty strong in their own rights. As long as Luffy's able to beat even those who's stronger than he is, he can still become a pirate king.

Isn't that the same thing? If Luffy is strong enough to beat anyone in the world, that means he's the strongest right. Even If the crew is extremely strong they need one strong Individual that can take on anyone and win. That man has to be Luffy (since he's the captain). For example take the marine ford war:- The marines were significantly stronger than the White beard's crew (three admirals, fleet admiral, Garp, Hawkeye, Doflamingo). But due to Whitbeard's presence (an Individual stronger than any of them) they were unable to win in a fair way.

 

[M3J]

Isn't that the same thing? If Luffy is strong enough to beat anyone in the world, that means he's the strongest right. Even If the crew is extremely strong they need one strong Individual that can take on anyone and win. That man has to be Luffy (since he's the captain). For example take the marine ford war:- The marines were significantly stronger than the White beard's crew (three admirals, fleet admiral, Garp, Hawkeye, Doflamingo). But due to Whitbeard's presence (an Individual stronger than any of them) they were unable to win in a fair way.

Not really. He was inferior to Crocodile but he still won just because he figured out liquid was Crocodile's weakness. He was also inferior to Doflamingo in that fight, but thanks to outside help, he managed to win. There are various circumstances that can allow Luffy to beat opponents even if they are superior to him or would have advantages against normal humans (like Enel or Lucci against rubber Luffy).

I don't know if they really were significantly stronger, especially since a lot of Whitebeard's commanders got trapped or damaged because of interference/distraction. Otherwise they seemed to be doing well. And Sengoku and Garp weren't fighting until near the end when Luffy finally got on top of the platform.


But given Luffy is having trouble with Katakuri here and with Cracker and couldn't hurt Big Mom, he really stands no chance against Big Mom. Unless he gets help, Big Mom is not going down this arc.

Anyway, whether or not Perospero is killed, he'll likely be knocked out, which hopefully cancels out his devil fruit power and allows the Straw Hats to escape.

 

[Enima]

Not really. He was inferior to Crocodile but he still won just because he figured out liquid was Crocodile's weakness. He was also inferior to Doflamingo in that fight, but thanks to outside help, he managed to win. There are various circumstances that can allow Luffy to beat opponents even if they are superior to him or would have advantages against normal humans (like Enel or Lucci against rubber Luffy).

Yes, Luffy did win some fights due to various circumstances (But both of the fights you mentioned were fair fights). But he is not the pirate king yet. He can't become the pirate king if he has to rely on luck every time a yonko attacks him. That's why he'll become the strongest man in the world.

I don't know if they really were significantly stronger, especially since a lot of Whitebeard's commanders got trapped or damaged because of interference/distraction. Otherwise they seemed to be doing well. And Sengoku and Garp weren't fighting until near the end when Luffy finally got on top of the platform.

All of them combined couldn't stop Akainu (marco stalled for a bit). Enraged White beard took out Akainu with only a couple of hits.

 

[M3J]

Yes, Luffy did win some fights due to various circumstances (But both of the fights you mentioned were fair fights). But he is not the pirate king yet. He can't become the pirate king if he has to rely on luck every time a yonko attacks him. That's why he'll become the strongest man in the world.


All of them combined couldn't stop Akainu (marco stalled for a bit). Enraged White beard took out Akainu with only a couple of hits.

He can become a pirate king with luck and without becoming the strongest man in the world. So far Luffy's had luck on his side, from Buggy trying to execute him to having Whitebeard pirates help him save Ace. He'll likely have luck here and escape from Big Mom with minimal loss, if any, which might also mean Pedro survives. And it's not just luck, but Luffy's durability, ability to come up with good strategy, and potential that can make him extremely dangerous. Despite not being at 100%, he still entered the Marineford War and is still fighting Katakuri despite Big Mom.

I disagree that his fight against Doflamingo was fair. It was basically Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy against Luffy, Law, and the numerous gladiators. But then again, I see Luffy beating Kaidou with tons of help, before his rematch against Big Mom where he fights and wins alone.

No, Akainu still got up and continued to fight. Hell, he and Aokiji fought for days, while Luffy got exhausted against Cracker and was sustained by eating the crackers weakened by Nami.

Given that two Marines fought for days and still haven't tried to take out a Yonkou, it's safe to assume Yonkou are at similar level. To add, their commanders must be strong if very few people have fucked with them, and we see how difficult Luffy had it against Cracker and Katakuri. Luffy's gonna have to get significantly strong if he wants to become the strongest.

Hell, Roger became a pirate king but we know he beat Shiki on one occasion because of luck - a storm took out most of Shiki's fleet. Hell, Nami and Usopp are perfect examples: despite being weaker than their opponents they usually win because of their own skills and abilities.

 

[Enima]

He can become a pirate king with luck and without becoming the strongest man in the world. So far Luffy's had luck on his side, from Buggy trying to execute him to having Whitebeard pirates help him save Ace. He'll likely have luck here and escape from Big Mom with minimal loss, if any, which might also mean Pedro survives. And it's not just luck, but Luffy's durability, ability to come up with good strategy, and potential that can make him extremely dangerous. Despite not being at 100%, he still entered the Marineford War and is still fighting Katakuri despite Big Mom.

The difference is, all of them were one time incidents. Pirate king is a status. He needs to maintain it. Someone can't be pirate king just because he won against yonkos one or twice due to luck. Luffy might have to fight a yonko hundreds of times. Luck is not going to help him that many times. Durability and Intelligence are part of fighting strength.

No, Akainu still got up and continued to fight. Hell, he and Aokiji fought for days, while Luffy got exhausted against Cracker and was sustained by eating the crackers weakened by Nami.

He was knocked out by white beard. He managed to get up later, still counts as defeat. For example:- Luffy was able to get up after fighting against crocodile for the first time, but it was still considered a defeat. White beard could've ended Akainu's life If he wanted to. Akainu wouldn't have been able to defend himself.

Given that two Marines fought for days and still haven't tried to take out a Yonkou, it's safe to assume Yonkou are at similar level.

Sorry, I don't get what you're trying to say here.

To add, their commanders must be strong if very few people have fucked with them, and we see how difficult Luffy had it against Cracker and Katakuri. Luffy's gonna have to get significantly strong if he wants to become the strongest.

Nobody messes with the yonko commanders because they're scared of the yonkos. There are many people capable of taking down a average yonko commander, but they don't do it because of the yonkos. Even Buggy mentioned this once "whatever you do, don't mess with white beard's crew"

Hell, Roger became a pirate king but we know he beat Shiki on one occasion because of luck - a storm took out most of Shiki's fleet. Hell, Nami and Usopp are perfect examples: despite being weaker than their opponents they usually win because of their own skills and abilities.

Was that canon? It was never mentioned that Roger was losing. It was basically like the incident that happened at the end of dressrosa arc. Thousands of pirates came to kill Luffy and Law because they defeated Doflamingo and Fujitora killed them all. If he hadn't done that then Luffy would've killed them all instead. Roger got lucky, that doesn't mean he would've lost otherwise.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Not assuming anything. If two people have a tug of war and one person loses then we have to assume that he is weaker than the winner.

As far as I know this is the largest amount of damage he's ever received. You can easily find people in worse conditions, and they survived.

Yeah sure... please, take all the damages he suffered and will see if you are still alive. You do not even realize the damage he took of the page you mentioned...

Pirate king is not only about strength, there are many other important elements to it. But to become the pirate king strength is essential, you have to be the strongest man in the world to become pirate king.

No you don't. Especially when it comes to the strongest people of One Piece. They fight regularly and likely it is a draw.

Dude, google "torture" . The definition fits what Perespero is doing right now.

That's not a cheap trick. Even in real life, most snakes' poison won't instantly kill you. That's how people survive snake bites. Are you telling me they all have plot armor. As I already mentioned, Perspero was torturing them.

Dude, learn to read. Who said I was contesting torture? For the third time, I do not care about the way. The situation and the repetition makes it poorly. And what is this comparison with snake poison... >.>

Why do you think I can't just tie myself to an elephant and pull it?

1. It has conquerors haki
2. It can burn the rope
3. It can Freeze the rope
4. It's stronger than me

You can even try it with a human stronger than yourself.

Do you live in One Piece World?


Agree, the fight was Doflamingo was not litterally fair and square. Would not have been for the thousand of peasants, he would have been dead. Luffy on a single fight would have lost.

Akainu defeated WhiteBeard first then, attacking him in a weak moment he could have finished him up without him doing anything.

 

[kingsley29101990]

Yeah sure... please, take all the damages he suffered and will see if you are still alive. You do not even realize the damage he took of the page you mentioned...



No you don't. Especially when it comes to the strongest people of One Piece. They fight regularly and likely it is a draw.



Dude, learn to read. Who said I was contesting torture? For the third time, I do not care about the way. The situation and the repetition makes it poorly. And what is this comparison with snake poison... >.>



Do you live in One Piece World?


Agree, the fight was Doflamingo was not litterally fair and square. Would not have been for the thousand of peasants, he would have been dead. Luffy on a single fight would have lost.

Akainu defeated WhiteBeard first then, attacking him in a weak moment he could have finished him up without him doing anything.

It's true that one can become the pirate king by luck even if you aren't stong, but the question is - for how long? As kaido or any powerful opponent can easily take the onepiece from you ( if it's actually a thing ) and you cease being the pk.
It would be pretty messed up if luffy doesn't at the very least strike fear at the hearts of the emperors or the admirals before becoming the pk. If the world finds out that he's managed to somehow become the king, he'll definitely be hunted down, if not by the marines, by the emperors as they wanna become the king themselves. Hence, it's very necessary he becomes the strongest. I really dont want his crew running or hiding from kaido or blackbeared ones he becomes the king, or worse still, have sanji bake a cake for bigmom anytime she's coming around, just so they'll survive. It's totally not being free.

On zoro still being alive after taking all the damage he did, I think that's how Oda wants him to be seen, even Arlong was surprised that he could stand and move after seeing the injuries he sustained in his fight with Hawk eyes prior the arlong park arc, I don't know if he's super human or not, but with all the damages he's been through and come out alive, he's definitely tough, maybe ( MAYBE ) even super human in his own right.

 

[Enima]

Yeah sure... please, take all the damages he suffered and will see if you are still alive. You do not even realize the damage he took of the page you mentioned...

Dude, he's a superhuman. A normal person can survive after losing 40% of his blood. The Injuries Zoro has is nothing for a superhuman.

No you don't. Especially when it comes to the strongest people of One Piece. They fight regularly and likely it is a draw.

White beard was called the strongest man alive. I'm sure he din't get that title by ending every fight he had with other strong people in a draw. Kaido and Big Mom couldn't become pirate king because there was a man stronger than them at the time. You cannot become the pirate king If you are not the strongest man in the world. Now that the strongest man in the world is gone the throne wars have started. They are fighting over the throne of the pirate king that they couldn't get earlier due to white beard.

Dude, learn to read. Who said I was contesting torture? For the third time, I do not care about the way. The situation and the repetition makes it poorly. And what is this comparison with snake poison... >.>

lol, Perospero captured the enemy and now he's torturing them. That's how it happens all the time. Bad guy captures his enemy and tortures him. How else does it happen?.

You said, the 3 minute time taken for Perespero's ability is BS, because it was convenient for the protagonists. I used snake poison as an example to show that happens in real life too. It doesn't Instantly kill a person. It takes time.

Do you live in One Piece World?

Dude, one piece or whatever fictional world or real world. You can't physically overpower someone stronger than you. That's basic logic.

Akainu defeated WhiteBeard first then, attacking him in a weak moment he could have finished him up without him doing anything.

When did that happen? When did akainu beat white beard? Which chapter?