Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[kkck]

The sky was clear when Roger and Whitebeard clashed, right?

Shanks vs Whitebeard and Kaido vs Big Mom both happened under a stormy, black, clouded sky and they basically split the clouds.

Isn't it possible that the clash between Roger and Whitebeard could have caused the same effect if the sky wasn't already clear?

But then... what about when kaido and luffy clashed? The sky wasn't clear then and big mom had been using her abilities through the battle. Add to that the bit regarding contact.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Luffy learned Flow after King’s therefore you need Flow to learn King’s”

Got it backwards bud,

Luffy learned to weaponise King's Haki after he mastered flow.

We KNOW Big Mom is using King’s, we do NOT know she’s using anything else.

Wrong.

Flow is what allows Haki to be used to project Haki and Internalise it for damage.

Unless you’ve got a wall of images that show me otherwise moving on

It's just called common sense.

Flow is something only the best can do.

King's Haki is something weaponised only by the best.

Wouldn't take a genius to conclude Flow is required to utilise King's Haki an the fact we see it projected is what FLOW does.

Imagine thinking the technique required to manipulate Haki to the highest level is required to use the most powerful Haki technique? Impossible.

I’m asserting that Luffy IS stronger than Zoro….so you believe otherwise??

Nope, Luffy is obviously stronger. My point is you're clueless regarding Haki and Enma.

Not so long ago, you made up some nonsense that Enma utilises Flow. You've hardly said anything accurate.

Hey everyone, apparently I’M not familiar with geomtery but a strong stabbing motion, meant to mimic a rapier mind you, definitively CANNOT create a hole in a manga because it serves my purposes.

It is a pretty silly idea when you limit what a Sword can do when we see shapes being made by weapons that should be incapable of that.

If Enma is the only sword to wound Kaido what did the Scabbards do?

And this is how it's obvious you know nothing.

Scabbards can't injure Kaido permanently.

Clearly, you've hardly been reading at all.

Only King's Haki and Enma can permanently injure Kaido.

Go read.

Wasn’t there a certain 2-sword technique the learned from Oden they used? I can’t remember

Hilarious buddy.

Obviously, you're not very observant. This is after fighting the scabbards, his injuries heal when he's injured by attacks that can't do lasting damage like Enma or King's Haki.

Clearly, you just read the summary of the chapter and missed the part where their damage was merely superficial and healed.

Where does the Haki Enma “exudes” come from? Zoro. Where does it go? His sword strikes. How does it get there? Through his body. More Haki from his body is sent through to his sword.

Utter nonsense, lol.

No where does it state more Haki enters into his Sword.

Simply states it activates his Haki.

You're making up nonsense as usual.

 

[Pirate Queen]

However, how an attack hurt him and WHAT KIND of attack it is are two different things. There is no reason for Kaido to confuse CoC in a chapter titled Color of the Conqueror. That literally, and I do mean literally, makes zero sense. It’s the same thing with their training. Oda the writer is literally putting these 2 characters in the same chapters learning the same techniques/unlocking the same abilities at different stages but you say they’re unrelated because of a question mark in Kaido’s sentence? That can’t make sense to you

I'm sorry I have to address this. What stage of CoC do you think Zoro unlocked? Because you run into several problems either way u look at it.

1. You think he unlocked BASIC CoC. The problem? Basic CoC has been shown to drop fodder. Since Zoro DIDN'T show this ability the idea that he unlocked basic CoC is baseless.

2. You think Zoro unlocked ADVANCED CoC. The problem? The tendrils of black lightening connecting to his swords ( like all other Advanced CoC users) are absent and that is the greatest defining visual we have. All top tier Pirates have shown it. Luffy, Whitebeard, Roger, Kaido, and Big Mom. Zoro did not show it.

2.5 if your counter is that Zoro is the only one that can do it WITHOUT Black Lightening, imma need you to back that up somehow.

3. You think Zoro unlocked CoC in some way never before seen in the manga, and then I'm gunna refer you back to 2.5

We got nothing definitively saying Zoro has any version of CoC that we know of. But I will tell you this, if next chapter Chopper is working on Zoro and a Beast Pirate goes to attack him and Zoro glares and the guy drops, frothing at the mouth, I'm gunna tag you and say " Damn i guess I was wrong Zoro DOES have CoC."

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

ctually, wrong again. Ame no habikiri did scar Kaido. The only property unique to Enma is the haki strengthening concept.

wrong.

It simply modifies it.

1. Enma Modifies Haki, it has a latent ability to hurt Kaido even with weak attacks.
   Spoiler

   
2. Enma makes attack swings more powerful, thus why Zoro missed his attack and was out of breath.
   Spoiler

   

Enma is the only sword said to have injured Kaido. You have no clue whether Enma's ability to modify Haki is even why Ame no Habakiri is able to seemingly cut Kaido nor do you have any idea if Enma is the Sword responsible for the shape.

Logically, it looks like a dual Sword attack, but the fact is time an time again, we're told Enma and everything that's been said about Zoro's Sword has only been towards Enma.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

xcept when the Yonkou believes Zoro has CoC, got it.

Kaido never said he did nor does he believe it, he asked, lol.

Your issue here is you don't seem to understand King's Haki makes attacks strong enough to permanently hurt Kaido.

Secondly, you don't seem to grasp that Enma is the other only method to wound Kaido permanently without King's Haki.

Kaido's simply unable to grasp Enma is that powerful and just has to ask if Zoro is also a King's Haki user,

Zoro essentially denies it, he of all people would know if he used King's Haki.

This is a point in the series where whenever the SHs use a new form of Haki, they'd know. They've been using Haki for years now.

 

[I Am Atomic]

wrong

All u posted was Zoro using it lol.

Explain why Oden's swords are in X shaped and coincidentally Kaido's scar is X shaped too.

 

[Pirate Queen]

All u posted was Zoro using it lol.

Explain why Oden's swords are in X shaped and coincidentally Kaido's scar is X shaped too.

Just like we can't explain why Zoro's Ashura creates 9 swords but there is only 1 slash from the Ashura attacks lol

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Explain why Oden's swords are in X shaped and coincidentally Kaido's scar is X shaped too.

Like I said, shape of a wound doesn't always correlate.

A sword shouldn't be able to do this.

Nor does 1 attack resulting in this makes sense.

If 1 Sword can do these, then an X shape is not at all farfetched.

Like I said, logically, it implies Ame no Habakiri.

However, the fact is Enma is given all the credit which possibly suggests Ame no Habakiri was only able to do so due to Enma OR it was all Enma regardless of the shape of the wound.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

Fact is Enma does things no other Sword does.

There's got to be a reason only Enma is given credit for injuring Kaido.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Just like we can't explain why Zoro's Ashura creates 9 swords but there is only 1 slash from the Ashura attacks lol

Not you too lol. Bringing up other attacks to counter the obvious visual evidence. Use the panel of Oden injuring Kaido and tell me where I am wrong.

Oden used a X shaped attack and Kaido got a X shaped scar.

This is a perfect example of simple concept being complicated.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

However, the fact is Enma is given all the credit which possibly suggests Ame no Habakiri was only able to do so due to Enma OR it was all Enma regardless of the shape of the wound.

Credit given by Hiyori who wasn't there in battle!
But ignore the more recent evidence of witnessing the attack and still sticking to the old wrong evidence.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Not you too lol. Bringing up other attacks to counter the obvious visual evidence. Use the panel of Oden injuring Kaido and tell me where I am wrong.

Oden used a X shaped attack and Kaido got a X shaped scar.

This is a perfect example of simple concept being complicated.

I come from Complicated Island, homie. And the water is nice

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Credit given by Hiyori who wasn't there in battle!

Doesn't matter if she wasn't there, that's what she was told.

But ignore the more recent evidence of witnessing the attack and still sticking to the old wrong evidence.

So, you have proof that says otherwise.

Where is it stated?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

If your logic is absolute, then this isn't a Sword attack because it doesn't look like one, right? @Barrier

 

[Moss Green]

The very translation you cling to like a lifeline says wound not scar.

Got it backwards bud,

Luffy learned to weaponise King's Haki after he mastered flow.

I did say it backwards, whoo

Wrong.

Flow is what allows Haki to be used to project Haki and Internalise it for damage.



It's just called common sense.

Flow is something only the best can do.

“The best”? Sentomaru and Hyogoro are among the best of what exactly.

King's Haki is something weaponised only by the best.

Wouldn't take a genius to conclude Flow is required to utilise King's Haki an the fact we see it projected is what FLOW does.

Imagine thinking the technique required to manipulate Haki to the highest level is required to use the most powerful Haki technique? Impossible.

I’m now sure you can’t read. I NEVER said it wasn’t. Just that it’s a theory not proven yet because we LITERALLY have no evidence and have yet to hear the mechanics of how King’s works. We’re not in the same stratosphere of discussion you’re just repeating yourself

Nope, Luffy is obviously stronger. My point is you're clueless regarding Haki and Enma.

???????

Not so long ago, you made up some nonsense that Enma utilises Flow. You've hardly said anything accurate.

Where does the Haki Enma “exudes” come from? Zoro. Where does it go? His sword strikes. How does it get there? Through his body. More Haki from his body is sent through to his sword. Huh, that sort of sounds like something he was shown of montage of training while Luffy was montaging Armament Flow. What a quirky narrative Oda weaves, relaying 2 training montages side by side for no reason.

Go read

It is a pretty silly idea when you limit what a Sword can do when we see shapes being made by weapons that should be incapable of that.

Explain why Oden’s Nitoryu only uses 1 sword

And this is how it's obvious you know nothing.

Scabbards can't injure Kaido permanently.

Clearly, you've hardly been reading at all.

Only King's Haki and Enma can permanently injure Kaido.

Go read.

You’re quoting a line that says wound not scar. A bruise is a wound. Go read

Hilarious buddy.

Obviously, you're not very observant. This is after fighting the scabbards, his injuries heal when he's injured by attacks that can't do lasting damage like Enma or King's Haki.

Clearly, you just read the summary of the chapter and missed the part where their damage was merely superficial and healed.



Utter nonsense, lol.

And now you’ve fully contradicted yourself by moving the goalposts from “wound” to “scar”. The joys of relying on singular sentences. Thanks for playing

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

I'm sorry I have to address this. What stage of CoC do you think Zoro unlocked? Because you run into several problems either way u look at it.

1. You think he unlocked BASIC CoC. The problem? Basic CoC has been shown to drop fodder. Since Zoro DIDN'T show this ability the idea that he unlocked basic CoC is baseless.

2. You think Zoro unlocked ADVANCED CoC. The problem? The tendrils of black lightening connecting to his swords ( like all other Advanced CoC users) are absent and that is the greatest defining visual we have. All top tier Pirates have shown it. Luffy, Whitebeard, Roger, Kaido, and Big Mom. Zoro did not show it.

2.5 if your counter is that Zoro is the only one that can do it WITHOUT Black Lightening, imma need you to back that up somehow.

3. You think Zoro unlocked CoC in some way never before seen in the manga, and then I'm gunna refer you back to 2.5

We got nothing definitively saying Zoro has any version of CoC that we know of. But I will tell you this, if next chapter Chopper is working on Zoro and a Beast Pirate goes to attack him and Zoro glares and the guy drops, frothing at the mouth, I'm gunna tag you and say " Damn i guess I was wrong Zoro DOES have CoC."

I'm sorry I have to address this. What stage of CoC do you think Zoro unlocked? Because you run into several problems either way u look at it.

1. You think he unlocked BASIC CoC. The problem? Basic CoC has been shown to drop fodder. Since Zoro DIDN'T show this ability the idea that he unlocked basic CoC is baseless.

2. You think Zoro unlocked ADVANCED CoC. The problem? The tendrils of black lightening connecting to his swords ( like all other Advanced CoC users) are absent and that is the greatest defining visual we have. All top tier Pirates have shown it. Luffy, Whitebeard, Roger, Kaido, and Big Mom. Zoro did not show it.

2.5 if your counter is that Zoro is the only one that can do it WITHOUT Black Lightening, imma need you to back that up somehow.

3. You think Zoro unlocked CoC in some way never before seen in the manga, and then I'm gunna refer you back to 2.5

We got nothing definitively saying Zoro has any version of CoC that we know of. But I will tell you this, if next chapter Chopper is working on Zoro and a Beast Pirate goes to attack him and Zoro glares and the guy drops, frothing at the mouth, I'm gunna tag you and say " Damn i guess I was wrong Zoro DOES have CoC."

Thank you for actually addressing what I said so we can have a discussion.

Based on what we know about CoC I couldn’t say definitively but I’m leaning 2. Zoro’s Haki specialty is armament. If Flow is the prequesite for CoC cladding as HP says and Enma is the sword he’s learning it on then it would make sense. However, we have seen 1 have physical effects outside of knocking out fodder. Shanks made a number of cracked boards on Old beard’s ship.

To be honest with you I’m starting to warm to the idea that you were right AND it’s 2. Kaido is unsure that he used CoC cladding because he felt King’s but only a trickle and we didn’t see the special effect. Hence no lightening trail. I’m ok with you waiting until he knocks out fodder or something but for me Zoro undeniably has it because in the chapter titled “CoC” both he and Luffy are given spotlight for it. From a storytelling perspective that’s about as clear as it gets

 

[Nie Li]

But then... what about when kaido and luffy clashed? The sky wasn't clear then and big mom had been using her abilities through the battle. Add to that the bit regarding contact.

You're right, it should have happened there so I concede my point.

I hope it will happen in round 2, though, it would be a shame if Luffy vs Kaido ends without splitting the sky.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The very translation you cling to like a lifeline says wound not scar.

Spoiler

Same thing.

“The best”? Sentomaru and Hyogoro are among the best of what exactly.

Google "broad terms".

Just because they're not the absolute best doesn't mean they're still not 1 of the best Haki users in the series.

Spoiler

And this doesn't prove Enma uses flow.

It explains what Flow does.

No where does it state Enma functions or utilises Flow, so that's falsehood on your part.

You’re quoting a line that says wound not scar. A bruise is a wound. Go read

Google or Dictionary. Wound and Scar are the same, Synonyms of each other which you're obviously not aware of.

Explain why Oden’s Nitoryu only uses 1 sword

Spoiler

That's for you to ask Oda.

Fact is a blade can be the complete opposite of the shaped wounds it makes.

Being in denial doesn't change that fact.

You’re quoting a line that says wound not scar. A bruise is a wound. Go read

And now you’ve fully contradicted yourself by moving the goalposts from “wound” to “scar”. The joys of relying on singular sentences. Thanks for playing

I advice you to take your own advice.

Wounds and Scars, same thing.

Try asking a doctor, but even that isn't necessary. It's elementary knowledge or, just google.

 

[Nie Li]

Same thing.

Wound and scar are not synonyms. Even in that google definition you posted it doesn't say they're the same thing. lol

And on the topic of Enma I'll only say the only definition we were ever given of what Enma does is pretty much a flow of haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Wound and scar are not synonyms.

They're synonyms.

A scar is a small wound.

A wound is still a scar.

 

[Nie Li]

Laughable.

They're synonyms.

A scar is a small wound.

A wound is still a scar.

Not sure what dictionary you're reading, lol.

A scar is not a small wound.

Just read the definition you have posted yourself. And don't be rude.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And on the topic of Enma I'll only say the only definition we were ever given of what Enma does is pretty much a flow of haki.

Wrong.

We're NEVER told it uses flow, that's an utter fallacy.

We're told:

It activates the user's Haki without the user activating it themselves.

It cuts more than intended.

Flow allows one to project Haki or Internalise Haki to do damage. No where is it stated or shown that Enma replicates flow.

This is not Haki they're familiar with.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2021 ---

A scar is not a small wound.

Just read the definition you have posted yourself. And don't be rude.

A scar is a wound that has healed.

A scar and wound nonetheless denote injury, they're essentially the same thing.

Fact at the end of the day is Scabbards injured Kaido, only difference is it's not permanent.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021 ---

The difference is semantic.

One is a healed Injury, and the other is just an Injury whose status is not defined.

Both nonetheless are injuries, so it doesn't really change anything.

Fact doesn't change:

1. Only King's Haki users can deal permanent damage.
2. And Enma.

 

[Nie Li]

Wrong.

We're NEVER told it uses flow, that's an utter fallacy.

We're told:

It activates the user's Haki without the user activating it themselves.

It cuts more than intended.

Flow allows one to project Haki or Internalise Haki to do damage. No where is it stated or shown that Enma replicates flow.

This is not Haki they're familiar with.

Flow is the simplest concept. Flow is to make haki flow from the body and focus it on a single point. In other words, "Advanced CoA" is literally only focusing a bigger quantity than usual into a single bodypart. There's nothing more to it. More haki than usual focused = Advanced CoA. Luffy simply had to train to focus it like that, a need of training that Enma erases.

Enma is a haki magnet that takes more haki from the user than intended. Give it a bare minium of thought: If Enma swells with more haki than simply that that Zoro could gather in his hand normally, it will create the same effect as using the flow that Luffy learnt. The difference is that Zoro doesn't know how to do that and probably doesn't even understand how it works since nobody explained it to him. He just knows Luffy trained something new while he trained to tame Enma.

Enma draws more haki than intended from Zoro, we saw it shrink Zoro's arm when that happened first, as it tried stealing all of Zoro's haki. When that happened, Zoro made an effort to draw his haki back into his arm. Those watching were impressed and said someone weaker would have died. Why would someone die from having "the haki from the hand/arm" sucked? Simple: Because someone without Zoro's will would have had more haki than that sucked in that scene, Enma would likely have mummified their whole body because it simply sucks the user's haki when swung.

To be fair, just imbuing a sword implies a very basic kind of flow (you move it from the hand to the sword) which is probably why "flow" CoA is seen as fairly common among the samurai of Wano.

A scar is a wound that has healed.

A scar and wound nonetheless denote injury, they're essentially the same thing.

Fact at the end of the day is Scabbards injured Kaido, only difference is it's not permanent.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2021 ---

The difference is semantic.

One is a healed Injury, and the other is just an Injury whose status is not defined.

Both nonetheless are injuries, so it doesn't really change anything.

Fact doesn't change:

1. Only King's Haki users can deal permanent damage.
2. And Enma.

Yes, the difference is semantic. As you probably know, semantic means that the meaning of both words is different, and it is.

Not every wound leaves a scar, even in real life, so they really are not the same thing.

I don't really care about what you guys were arguing there, I just wanted to point out how you were reading a definition wrong.

Also, about those facts, if Kaido can be hurt any attack strong enough even without CoC (like Enma according to you) then there's no ""only" CoC". Simply any attack of any nature capable of dealing that kind of damage can hurt Kaido. It's similar to what you like to argue about Luffy's durability "It's not about using haki, it's about hitting hard enough".

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Flow is the simplest concept. Flow is to make haki flow from the body and focus it on a single point. In other words, "Advanced CoA" is literally only focusing a bigger quantity than usual into a single bodypart. There's nothing more to it. More haki than usual focused = Advanced CoA. Luffy simply had to train to focus it like that, a need of training that Enma erases.

No where does it state or indicate that Enma does that.

Enma is a haki magnet that takes more haki from the user than intended.

It says it exudes/activates Haki on its own.

Slices more than needed.

Nothing about it being a Haki magnet.

If Enma swells with more haki than simply that that Zoro could gather in his hand normally, it will create the same effect as using the flow that Luffy learnt.

Kaido and Big Mom called Zoro's Haki weird.

They never called Luffy's Haki weird for Flow being used. What he and Zoro with Enma do are completely different.

Enma and Flow work completely differently.

Flow is not increasing Haki, it's MOVING Haki.

Flow is in essence another level of Haki.

Enma draws more haki than intended from Zoro, we saw it shrink Zoro's arm when that happened first, as it tried stealing all of Zoro's haki.

Again, false.

It doesn't draw more Haki than intended, it activates Haki on its own.

Haki is not why Zoro's arms are buff.

Why would someone die from having "the haki from the hand/arm" sucked?

Doesn't say they'll die, says they become a husk.

It simply activates Haki and it absorbs physical energy.

To be fair, just imbuing a sword implies a very basic kind of flow

If that were the case, all Swordsmen would be using Flow.

Law can't do it.

Activating Haki is not the same as Flow.

Flow is the ability to move Haki. Activating Haki and Flow are 2 different things.

Activating Haki is not a kind of Flow.

Also, about those facts, if Kaido can be hurt any attack strong enough even without CoC (like Enma according to you) then there's no ""only" CoC". Simply any attack of any nature capable of dealing that kind of damage can hurt Kaido. It's similar to what you like to argue about Luffy's durability "It's not about using haki, it's about hitting hard enough".

And that has ALWAYS been the case with Haki like I said many times before. All Haki really does is make things hard, and in effect, more powerful. Steel rods would hurt more than a stick. Haki is just harder the stronger it becomes.

It's just nigh impossible to deliver such level of power without King's Haki.

Enma is a magical sword that can do that and King's Haki is the only natural way to do that unless someone is simply an outlier.

You're not saying anything I've not said before. It's all about hardness.

Point is the ability to deliver such level of power is really only found with King's Haki, and clearly, Enma which only 1 man has ever used until Zoro.

 

[Nie Li]

Again, false.

It doesn't draw more Haki than intended, it activates Haki on its own.

Haki is not why Zoro's arms are buff.

It doesn't draw more haki than intended? It only activates haki on its own? I don't see Zoro's arm shrunking every time his haki is "activated", willingly or otherwise.

In fact, just explain your interpretation of the arm thing, go ahead, it really feels like you're willingly disregarding parts of the explanation of what Enma does. Yes, what happened to Zoro's arm was a visual part of the explanation.