Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Franz]

Yeah Krillin worked as a character.... untill he disappaered from relevance after the Cell saga, which is still better than almost everyone else that became irrelevant even before Namek (Tien, Yamcha, Chao Zu, etc...).

But as characters work anyway.

If One Piece would be Dragon Ball, anyone but the original three - heck even that is a stretch -anyone but Luffy would be irrelevant.

Is not it already so?

Tell me a mugi who had a decent fight in the last hundred chapters except Luffy.

Is Dragon Ball, a Manga that constructed a light weight story around fights, really comparable to an epic Tale like One Piece? That's like comparing 50 Shades of Grey to Lord of the Rings.

But I do not think so ...

A Retcon would be if Sanji's birth location was changed to South Blue, or if he had never any motivation to become a cook and find All Blue before Zeff.

Retcon is to add information to the past to make it coincide with those present.

The VInsmoke and Sabo are retcon.

What you say is a reboot.

The Straw Hats, in all their 80 volume long journey, have actually been together for only a couple of months at max.

I knew, thanks.

But here we are not talking about characters, but readers.

They didn't ask Robin, their former enemy that is wanted since the age of 8,

Please.

Robin's back story was necessary given the clues that Oda had placed. It is not by chance that not many volumes are revealed later.

That of Sanji no, especially since it is clearly added after .....


But then what need is there to explain everything? The important thing is to have the information that led a character to become what it is. Zoro trains for his promise to Kuina, Nami is a thief because Bellmere was poor. Usop has become a liar to console his mother. Sanji feeds everyone because he has suffered hunger etc.

There is no need to explain everything, especially when the characters are already formed. A minimum of mystery is an integral part of a character's charm. When you want to review the past of a character too far, you risk making retcon and ruining the already known origins (see how interesting Luffy was in the first chapter and how hateful he was and out of the character in his flashback after the war).

 

[McNuss]

But as characters work anyway.

Well, if you are into background details...

Is not it already so?

Tell me a mugi who had a decent fight in the last hundred chapters except Luffy.

No it is definitely not so. But more and more you reveal what you are actually after: You want a battle shonen! Well I guess One Piece will never satisfy you then.

Each and every Straw Hat that took part in WCI played an absolutely significant role in that arc. Nami disabled the Homies with the Vivre Card and stole Zeus, Chopper (and Carrot) captured Brulee, Brook stole the Poneglyphs and smashed the Camel Picture, Jinbe freed Luffy from the prison and later enables the escape with his former crew. Sanji himself caused this entire arc.

I do want fights, particularly for Nami, as you can see in my previous posts. But One Piece is not about battles, it is about adventure.

But I do not think so ...

Actually you do, otherwise you would have arguments. Maybe you realised that Dragon Ball has not much source material to begin with (42 volumes, minimum amount of text). Funny though that you think Dragon Ball is a good comparison for One Piece, but you actually have no arguments besides "It Worked", which it of course did since Dragon Ball has an entirely different premise than One Piece. Dragon Ball is a battle shonen.

Retcon is to add information to the past to make it coincide with those present.
The VInsmoke and Sabo are retcon.

What you say is a reboot.

No that is not the meaning of retcon. Since you seem to be into Dragon Ball, a typical retcon is that in the original Dragon Ball manga, the universe had 5 Kaioshin, of which 4 were killed/absorbed by Majin Buu. In Dragon Ball Super each Universe only has one Kaioshin, meant to be the Counterpart to the God Of Destruction. This is a retcon. New information CONTRADICTS old information. If they coincide everything is fine.

A Reboot is something like the The Amazing Spiderman. There already was a movie trilogy telling the story of Peter Parker, but Marvel wanted a Reboot so they can fit it better into their Cinematic Universe.

I knew, thanks.
But here we are not talking about characters, but readers.

Readers of an 80 volume long story should have a grasp on the in-universe.

Please.
Robin's back story was necessary given the clues that Oda had placed. It is not by chance that not many volumes are revealed later.
That of Sanji no, especially since it is clearly added after .....

Again with the necessety? Oda made this backstory for the Big Mom Arc, which was absolutely necessary since Big Mom is supposed to be a main Rival for the Pirate King Title. No Sanji backstory = No Big Mom arc.

But then what need is there to explain everything? The important thing is to have the information that led a character to become what it is. Zoro trains for his promise to Kuina, Nami is a thief because Bellmere was poor. Usop has become a liar to console his mother. Sanji feeds everyone because he has suffered hunger etc.

There is no need to explain everything, especially when the characters are already formed. A minimum of mystery is an integral part of a character's charm. When you want to review the past of a character too far, you risk making retcon and ruining the already known origins (see how interesting Luffy was in the first chapter and how hateful he was and out of the character in his flashback after the war).

Mysteries are only interesting if they invoke theories and speculation, which Sanji's didn't since it is impossible to cross the Red Line without going through Mariejois/Fishmen Island and it was clear Sanji has not been to Grand Line before. With these facts, speculation quickly ends and you reach a point where Oda has to solve the mystery.

I don't get your additional hate for the Luffy flashback either. Where was Luffy "Hateful" in the flashback? "Hateful" is a pretty strong word. Luffy was a kid. Mood swings are normal.

I honestly advise you to move on from One Piece. It is not what you are looking for, and won't ever become that. Your own tastes seem to fundamentally go against those of the Author. Your complaints are more than just marginal. If you are still questioning the purpose of even the Luffy flashback which was published almost a decade ago, then I guess no one can convince you otherwise anymore.

 

[Franz]

Well, if you are into background details...

Which do not serve

No it is definitely not so. But more and more you reveal what you are actually after: You want a battle shonen! Well I guess One Piece will never satisfy you then.

One Piece is a Battle Shonen ......

. Maybe you realised that Dragon Ball has not much source material to begin with (42 volumes, minimum amount of text).

So now 42 volumes for you are few?

You know that most of the manga we miss even get that figure, yes?

And that in the initial plans of Oda One Piece would have stopped at maximum volume 20?

No that is not the meaning of retcon. Since you seem to be into Dragon Ball, a typical retcon is that in the original Dragon Ball manga, the universe had 5 Kaioshin, of which 4 were killed/absorbed by Majin Buu. In Dragon Ball Super each Universe only has one Kaioshin, meant to be the Counterpart to the God Of Destruction. This is a retcon. New information CONTRADICTS old information. If they coincide everything is fine.

No.

A retcon does not necessarily contradict old information. By definition it adds details to adapt it to the new continuity.

The Vinsmoke and Sabo are retcon. And yet quite obvious.

Mysteries are only interesting if they invoke theories and speculation,

I repeat, it is revealed after 80 volumes. 80 volumes.

Too many. If for 80 volumes it was made pleasant, then it was not vital (considering that it was a secondary detail and certainly not the location of One Piece)

Again with the necessety? Oda made this backstory for the Big Mom Arc, which was absolutely necessary since Big Mom is supposed to be a main Rival for the Pirate King Title. No Sanji backstory = No Big Mom arc.

Considering that Luffy and Big Mom were already enemies you could find another way even without the antics of Sanji and the VInsmoke ...

hich Sanji's didn't since it is impossible to cross the Red Line without going through Mariejois/Fishmen Island and it was clear Sanji has not been to Grand Line before. With these facts, speculation quickly ends and you reach a point where Oda has to solve the mystery.

Hmmmm no.

Sanji could have reached East Blue in any way, but it does not matter because that's not the basic point of the character.

Sanji as a character is born with Zeff. The fact of being of North Blue is not relevant for its characterization ......

I don't get your additional hate for the Luffy flashback either. Where was Luffy "Hateful" in the flashback? "Hateful" is a pretty strong word. Luffy was a kid. Mood swings are normal.

It mixes everything that should never be done in a well-written story, retcon, relatives that come out of nowhere, deaths that come back to life, in short, all that was left was to say that the dead was not Sabo, but the hidden twin brother.

I honestly advise you to move on from One Piece.

I have been following One Piece for 11 years.

I read the whole manga, there was not a saga or arc narrative that made me desist, except WCI, for a series of reasons whose principle is the flashback of Sanji and the retcon of his past.

We're not joking, it's obvious.

Oda took a character and ruined it altogether, VInsmoke are perhaps the worst characters ever created by him, and what's worse is that this arc has not added anything to the character. ANYTHING.

Sanji's character was essentially already developed and at peace, this whole sad childhood thing seemed for the sake of him having a bad childhood (another) rather than for the sake of adding depth/developing his character.

Having said this useless that I recommend to left the manga. I told you the Baratie is one of my favorite arc, I know it almost by heart, so the confront with that abortion of Sanji 2.0 is even more ruthless :P

 

[afromarco005]

Since we seem to have a disagreement on the definition of the word, let's try to be objective and ask dictionary kun :

"

retcon
[ret-kon]
noun

1. a subsequent revision of an established story in film, TV, video games, or comics:In an awkward retcon of his origin story, the hero’s parents survived the attack but suffered complete memory loss.

verb (used with object) ret·con·ned,ret·con·ning

1. to later revise (an established element of a fictional story):The writers retconned the origin of her powers, newly attributing them to alien ancestry.
   "

Cambridge dictionnary is even clearer:
"
retcon
UK
a piece of new information given in a film,television series, etc. that changes, or gives a different way of understanding, what has gone before. Retcon is short for "Retroactive Continuity".

 

[McNuss]

One Piece is a Battle Shonen ......

No, it is an adventure shonen. The main point about the manga is adventure not battles. Only the first few arcs (until Drum Island) follow a typical battle shonen theme.

Dragon Ball is a battle shonen. Every arc a villain (group) appears and fights the "Z Fighters". There is the absolute bar minimum of world building, villains are almost always typical pure evil cartoon villains (17/18 are victims and not villains), and while every villain threatens the destruction of Earth (or Namek), there are no real consequences due to the existence of the Dragon Balls. Dragon Ball has no set goal from the start. The Story arcs only exist to create the battles.

So now 42 volumes for you are few?

You know that most of the manga we miss even get that figure, yes?

And that in the initial plans of Oda One Piece would have stopped at maximum volume 20?

Ther initial plan for Dragon Ball was that it would be a silly gag manga with only a handful of chapters, only because it became popular Toryama expanded. Oda had the basic outline from the start.

42 volumes on it's own is good, but plaes in comparison to the 120+ volumes that are going to be One Piece

No.

A retcon does not necessarily contradict old information. By definition it adds details to adapt it to the new continuity.

The Vinsmoke and Sabo are retcon. And yet quite obvious.

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former."

I repeat, it is revealed after 80 volumes. 80 volumes.

Too many. If for 80 volumes it was made pleasant, then it was not vital (considering that it was a secondary detail and certainly not the location of One Piece)

Considering that Luffy and Big Mom were already enemies you could find another way even without the antics of Sanji and the VInsmoke ...

It was revealed after 80 volumes because Oda wanted to make the Big Mom arc. Maybe you could have written another way, but you are also not the world's most succesful comic author.

Oda decided to make the arc this way, obviously you don't like it, that's okay. But please stop claiming that there was another way. You can question smaller things but not the premise of an entire story arc.

Hmmmm no.

Sanji could have reached East Blue in any way, but it does not matter because that's not the basic point of the character.

Sanji as a character is born with Zeff. The fact of being of North Blue is not relevant for its characterization ......

It mixes everything that should never be done in a well-written story, retcon, relatives that come out of nowhere, deaths that come back to life, in short, all that was left was to say that the dead was not Sabo, but the hidden twin brother.

You cannot go from Noth Blue to East Blue. Stop claiming otherwise. Like really, it is getting on my nervers that you blatantly lie just because you have no arguments.

Also reread the Luffy flashback. Sabo is hinted to be alive in a very obvious way in the very same flashback. Dragon visits Zoro's home island and there is a speech bubble that says that they have a horribly injured person that needs treatment. Many people missed that, but you can't help people that don't read the speech bubbles. Actually the majority of people is rather bad at reading so maybe it is normal.

I have been following One Piece for 11 years.

I read the whole manga, there was not a saga or arc narrative that made me desist, except WCI, for a series of reasons whose princilae is the flashback of Sanji and the retcon of his past.

We're not joking, it's obvious.

Oda took a character and ruined it altogether, VInsmoke are perhaps the worst characters ever created by him, and what's worse is that this arc has not added anything to the character. ANYTHING.

Sanji's character was essentially already developed and at peace, this whole sad childhood thing seemed for the sake of him having a bad childhood (another) rather than for the sake of adding depth/developing his character.

Having said this useless that I recommend to abbadonare the manga. I told you the Baratie is one of my favorite ar, I know it almost by heart, so the confront with that abortion of Sanji 2.0 is even more ruthless :P

You clearly seem to have more problems with One Piece than just this latest arc.
Anyways, our conversation has reached a dead end. You complain without giving many arguments. Instead you constantly ask questions about the necesity of the Sanji story, and if someone answers those questions, you ignore the answer and repeat the question. This is a discussion, but you have nothing to discuss, since your point of view is already set in stone.

 

[Franz]

No, it is an adventure shonen.

They fight, so it's a Battle Shonen

The main point about the manga is adventure not battles.

True, but it remains a Battle Shonen. Indeed in the last arc it has also become more evident.

Dragon Ball is a battle shonen. Every arc a villain (group) appears and fights the "Z Fighters"

Like One Piece.

Ther initial plan for Dragon Ball was that it would be a silly gag manga with only a handful of chapters, only because it became popular Toryama expanded.

Even One Piece.

42 volumes on it's own is good, but plaes in comparison to the 120+ volumes that are going to be One Piece

So according to you Oda had in mind from the beginning to touch the hundred volumes and it was all programmed?

Wow ....

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former."

Um ....

Sanji was a child who worked on a boat, unnecessarily aggressive and who did not know the value of food, and learns it thanks to a fast that instills in him the need to cook for others to prevent them from suffering his fate.

Now Sanji is the prince of a country of clones-scientists-mercenaries-murderers, good little good, a little angel bullied by the bullet brothers and the bad bad father, with the good mother good morning sick, which helps everyone because good good boy was born ... .

Poor thing....

It was revealed after 80 volumes because Oda wanted to make the Big Mom arc.

And was this stuff needed?

You cannot go from Noth Blue to East Blue.

And who says?

And if it were, was it necessary to explain it?

Also reread the Luffy flashback. Sabo is hinted to be alive in a very obvious way in the very same flashback

So ? Here we talk about the existence of Sabo.
Which is obviously a character invented at the last to console Ace fans.

You clearly seem to have more problems with One Piece than just this latest arc.

Actually I only talked about the last arc ....

--- Double Post Merged, May 16, 2018, Original Post Date: May 16, 2018 ---

Since we seem to have a disagreement on the definition of the word, let's try to be objective and ask dictionary kun :

"

retcon
[ret-kon]
noun

1. a subsequent revision of an established story in film, TV, video games, or comics:In an awkward retcon of his origin story, the hero’s parents survived the attack but suffered complete memory loss.

verb (used with object) ret·con·ned,ret·con·ning

1. to later revise (an established element of a fictional story):The writers retconned the origin of her powers, newly attributing them to alien ancestry.
   "

Cambridge dictionnary is even clearer:
"
retcon
UK
a piece of new information given in a film,television series, etc. that changes, or gives a different way of understanding, what has gone before. Retcon is short for "Retroactive Continuity".

Finally someone that uses this word correctly .....

 

[McNuss]

They fight, so it's a Battle Shonen


True, but it remains a Battle Shonen. Indeed in the last arc it has also become more evident.

Like One Piece.

No. In One Piece they travel different islands with different cultures, history and problems. Quite often the islands nature itself is an obstacle to their adventures, like when Nami catches a disease on a jungle island, they have to find a doctor on a winter island, where they face deadly ice-bear rabbits and an avalanche while climbing up a mountain. Big Villains don't just appear, they are built up over hundreds of chapters. There is a big secret in history to discover and a great evil (WG/Tenryubito) to overcome. Over the course of the story, and even though he himself doesn't give a fuck, Luffy reveals messianic qualities like an incredible charisma that turns enemies into allies, an incredible luck that helps him survive even the impossible, the ability to make the weak-willed faint in his presence and the ability to hear the voice of all things. Each and every action of the main characters leaves and impact on the world and the further story.

There are fights, it has battle shonen elements yes. But it is not a battle shonen. It is an adventure shonen with aspects of an epic tale.
Would you consider Star Wars a battle movie because it has fights?

Even One Piece.
So according to you Oda had in mind from the beginning to touch the hundred volumes and it was all programmed?

Wow ....

Come on, stop trolling. One Piece has a clear goal (Luffy wants to become Pirate King), and Oda himself said he knew the end from the start. He worked on One Piece at least a year ahead of its first publication in 1997 as seen by the first prototype, Romance Dawn, version 1, 1996. He did not plan to last that long, no mangaka does because that is not how the industry works. Your work has to be popular, or you risk cancelation. Fortunately, One Piece became really popular really quick so Oda could plan more chapters ahead, which you can also see at the pacing of the East Blue Saga, which doesn't lead Luffy anywhere close to Pirate King in 100 chapters. You can also see on Oda's sketches how far ahead he works, I recommend One Piece:Green.

To my knowledge Toryama himself said that after the Namek Saga, he made up the Android Saga from scratch because Dragon Ball was so popular, and after the Android Saga, he did that again with the Buu Saga. The very first chapters of Dragon Ball are also very different in execution than the rest of the Manga.

Um ....

Sanji was a child who worked on a boat, unnecessarily aggressive and who did not know the value of food, and learns it thanks to a fast that instills in him the need to cook for others to prevent them from suffering his fate.

Now Sanji is the prince of a country of clones-scientists-mercenaries-murderers, good little good, a little angel bullied by the bullet brothers and the bad bad father, with the good mother good morning sick, which helps everyone because good good boy was born ... .

Poor thing....

Sanji was a child on a boat with no parents. He certainly was not overly aggressive, his ship was attacked by a dangerous pirate and later he stranded on a rock together with him, an situation that probably would even drive adults insane. Have you ever seen children? They can have quite the mood swings and One Piece ist a comic so everything is always a little exaggerated. Him biting Zeff on the ship was to show that he is strong willed, and him trying to murder Zeff on the rock was a crackpot idea he got due to the dire situation.

And was this stuff needed?

Yes, Big Mom is one of the Yonkou, that were first mentioned hundred of chapters ago. So a Big Mom arc was definitely necessary and this was the way Oda decided to do it. It his his story, once it is over we can talk about the impact of each story arc, but for now we have to acknowledge that it is his brain that makes this story and not yours or mine.

Remember, I get that you dislike this arc, but please stop questioning it's necessety.

And who says?

And if it were, was it necessary to explain it?

The World of One Piece is divided horizontally by the Red Line. North and East Blue are on opposing sides of the Red Line. You can't go from North to East without going through the Grand Line. Sanji having been to Grand Line before however makes no sense in the context of the story.

So ? Here we talk about the existence of Sabo.
Which is obviously a character invented at the last to console Ace fans.

No, I disagree. Sabo's purpose is to give us a cool character in the RA that is connected to Luffy. Because while Dragon is Luffy's father and appearently does care about Luffy (Loguetown), Luffy doesn't care about him at all since he doesn't even really know him.

Sabo's personality and importance in Luffy's life is entirely different to Ace's. Sabo is an optimist (wants to change the world for the better) while Ace was a pessimist (questions his own existence). Sabo is Luffy's "brother" like a best friend is your "brother". First and foremost he was Ace's best friend and Luffy was only second to him. Ace was Luffy's real brother in everything but blood. They grew up together and clearly loved each other as brothers do. Sabo and Luffy actually only knew each other for a very short time.

 

[Franz]

o. In One Piece they travel different islands with different cultures, history and problems.

Ehm, yes. And so ?

It remains a Battle Shonen by definition.

Big Villains don't just appear, they are built up over hundreds of chapters. There is a big secret in history to discover and a great evil (WG/Tenryubito) to overcome. Over the course of the story, and even though he himself doesn't give a fuck, Luffy reveals messianic qualities like an incredible charisma that turns enemies into allies, an incredible luck that helps him survive even the impossible, the ability to make the weak-willed faint in his presence and the ability to hear the voice of all things. Each and every action of the main characters leaves and impact on the world and the further story.

I repeat, and so ?

Leaving aside what you say is found in several other shonen, does this preclude it from being a Battle Shonen?

They fight, there are enemies to be overcome by force or otherwise, so it's a battle.

Come on, stop trolling.

?

One Piece has a clear goal (Luffy wants to become Pirate King), and Oda himself said he knew the end from the start. He worked on One Piece at least a year ahead of its first publication in 1997 as seen by the first prototype, Romance Dawn, version 1, 1996. He did not plan to last that long, no mangaka does because that is not how the industry works. Your work has to be popular, or you risk cancelation. Fortunately, One Piece became really popular really quick so Oda could plan more chapters ahead, which you can also see at the pacing of the East Blue Saga, which doesn't lead Luffy anywhere close to Pirate King in 100 chapters.

He does not answer my question.
Oda has always declared that for him history had to close in 200 chapters and five years. So all that comes after is lengthening, done well, but stretching.

Sales are an external factor, from the point of view of the plot One Piece could also end in volume 42 by raising the various subplots.

You can also see on Oda's sketches how far ahead he works, I recommend One Piece:Green.

I got it.
I do not understand what it has to do anyway, but oh well

To my knowledge Toryama himself said that after the Namek Saga, he made up the Android Saga from scratch because Dragon Ball was so popular,

Like Oda with One Piece.

Sanji was a child on a boat with no parents.

Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddd .......... so?

No, really since when the parents are essential for a character?

Yes, Big Mom is one of the Yonkou, that were first mentioned hundred of chapters ago. So a Big Mom arc was definitely necessary

I do not doubt it, but did it serve Sanji and the Vinsmoke?

The World of One Piece is divided horizontally by the Red Line.

Again, I do not need to explain these things, I know.

What I do not understand is why it was REALLY a problem syndicated as Sanji had done to move from one sea to another ..

No, I disagree. Sabo's purpose is to give us a cool character in the RA that is connected to Luffy.

Actually it is clearly an Ace 2.0

Come on, Oda has also given him the same fruit .....

However, as a reader of the saga of "A Song of Ice and Fire", I can assure you that you have a wrong view of what is a decades-long work.

In a long history, the retcon are unavoidable, and especially when the subplots are too many some become useless in the big scheme of things, even if they may like it.


Look, I'll give you an example:

Let's say that in my story I want the protagonist to mature, buy powers, find a magic sword and eventually kill the dragon and free the princess. I have my protagonist.

Then I can add the characters I want. I can invent the friend who tells him where the sword is, the magician telling him how to use it, the knight who goes to pick it up after the villain steals it. One can say: but the rider in question is a primary character! Without him, the hero would never have recovered the sword with which he kills the dragon.

The hero of this storyline remains the hero, the others are secondary. Although they all affect the story, even if without them it seems that the thread of the plot can not exist, instead it exists. It is the thread of the main character, to whom I can attach as many secondary threads as I want.

The same in One Piece.

The thread is only one, Luffy wants to become the King of the Pirates, and for realize it undertakes a journey with his nakama.

This Oda has then put hundreds of threads in place, which in turn have other threads.

 

[McNuss]

I don't wanna answer this anymore. You only read and anser what you like anyways.
Just saying, Asoiaf wasn't planned to last decades either. Martin had the end (that he also told D&D) in mind from the start. Originally it was supposed to be only three novels.

 

[Franz]

Just saying, Asoiaf wasn't planned to last decades either. Martin had the end (that he also told D&D) in mind from the start. Originally it was supposed to be only three novels.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd ............ do you notice any similarity?

If I saw it, it's the same thing done with One Piece.

I repeat.

Let's say that in my story I want the protagonist to mature, buy powers, find a magic sword and eventually kill the dragon and free the princess. I have my protagonist.

Then I can add the characters I want. I can invent the friend who tells him where the sword is, the magician telling him how to use it, the knight who goes to pick it up after the villain steals it. One can say: but the rider in question is a primary character! Without him, the hero would never have recovered the sword with which he kills the dragon.

The hero of this storyline remains the hero, the others are secondary. Although they all affect the story, even if without them it seems that the thread of the plot can not exist, instead it exists. It is the thread of the main character, to whom I can attach as many secondary threads as I want.

From your point of view, then, the fact that Sanji was born in North Blue was a question that had to be solved if not the work lost consistency?

Opinions, the facts are that it is only a detail like many, to which unfortunately Oda has decided to construct a silly subplot that has ruined Sanji.

Then of course we say that Sanji is a little angel fallen on the earth that cooks because it is good and let's finish them there.

 

[King Moe]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd ............ do you notice any similarity?

If I saw it, it's the same thing done with One Piece.

I repeat.




From your point of view, then, the fact that Sanji was born in North Blue was a question that had to be solved if not the work lost consistency?

Opinions, the facts are that it is only a detail like tatti, to which unfortunately Oda has decided to construct a silly subplot that has ruined Sanji.

Then of course we say that Sanji is a little angel fallen on the earth that cooks because it is good and let's finish them there.

I think you keep missing McNuss points back to back, Ice. Also to say Sanji's character is ruined is a big stretch as majority disagree on that. Nothing was ruin about Sanji that we seen before and the arc in general only boost his character. You keep acting Oda's whole arc was a pointless endeavor when in reality it wasn't one bit as its improving him as a character more.

Oda doesn't retcon or make anything to bring down a character he put effort in making especially one of his main characters he built since early on being Sanji.

You can have your opinion on not liking things in the series, but don't make your comments like factual for OP and think the things are that bad, but aren't really.

 

[Franz]

I think you keep missing McNuss points back to back, Ice

Why ?
He has his own vision of the character, peace.

But the one seen at WCI is not Sanji, little to do. At most it is a character that resembles him.

Also to say Sanji's character is ruined is a big stretch as majority disagree on that. Nothing was ruin about Sanji that we seen before and the arc in general only boost his character. You keep acting Oda's whole arc was a pointless endeavor when in reality it wasn't one bit as its improving him as a character more.

Trust me, luckly many people understood the bad work done on the character.

Again, how has the character been improved?

What's different?

Come on, explain ......

Oda doesn't retcon or make anything to bring down a character .

This is fantastic, now Oda does not retcon?

I understand that you like One Piece, but let's go, at least acknowledge that it also has limits.

Sanj and Vinsmoke are a retcon, because almost certainly when Oda I create the character did not pass him even for the antechamber of the brain to give him a backstory so disgusting and pathetic (but I do not think even in the days of Jaya seen how quiet is Sanji when he speaks of North Blue).

You can have your opinion on not liking things in the series, but don't make your comments like factual for OP

I could say the same about you.

Ask yourself questions, if so many people think Sanji has been ruined and the Vinsmokes are a failure there will be a reason, right?

 

[King Moe]

Why ?
He has his own vision of the character, peace.

But the one seen at WCI is not Sanji, little to do. At most it is a character that resembles him.


Trust me, luckly many people understood the bad work done on the character.

Again, how has the character been improved?

What's different?

Come on, explain ......




This is fantastic, now Oda does not retcon?

I understand that you like One Piece, but let's go, at least acknowledge that it also has limits.

Sanj and Vinsmoke are a retcon, because almost certainly when Oda I create the character did not pass him even for the antechamber of the brain to give him a backstory so disgusting and pathetic (but I do not think even in the days of Jaya seen how quiet is Sanji when he speaks of North Blue).


I could say the same about you.

Ask yourself questions, if so many people think Sanji has been ruined and the Vinsmokes are a failure there will be a reason, right?

It is Sanji and more layer character than before. You seem to think that in your own little world on it and can't seem to open your mind a little to the situation. It seems you need to read back Sanji's character again and try not looking at him solely his fighting moments only please.

Many? Who is this many? I only see complainers like you looking at Sanji like he was something else when he wasn't. I seen you arguing with other members to push your opinions as fact when it isn't. Head to Youtube (Including Youtubers who review One Piece frequently), Twitter, Reddit, etc.. And come back and tell me if the "Majority" said Sanji as a character is over? Cause sorry to tell you this in your narrow mind.....They aren't seeing your way. I only see an handful of you type complaining solely on the fights and how many didn't get their theories right with the arc as their gripes on complaining.

I presume your just one of those types in the end of this who didn't get your way judging how McNuss call you out on your opinions and haven't said anything to really counter them.

Sanji has improve in layers for one his personality as he is even closer in the group, getting truly past his family not just physical (Did that a long time ago), but mentally, his cooking improves and help save the lives of his friends, family, keeping true to his ideals that Zeff taught him and show more connection like his true father just like the last page of the arc, saving his friends, family, allies, etc. from Big Mom's Hunger Wrath which could have kill Strawhats at one point in the arc if it wasn't for his cake. A lot of things were showcase by him to show he is improving more and Oda does plan to use him as a fighter still looking at his clashes in the anime and manga and raid suit he got at the end of the arc with a bounty increase.

Thinking Sanji's character is over is VERY close-minded. Proves your more not a true fan or worse your like the character Flambe from how your acting as you let this arc thinking its rubbed the character when it didn't. Just like how she thought Katakuri was ruined as a character as his actions toward her, but it only improve his character latter on.

I am not a extreme fanboy if your implying. I know Oda makes mistakes, but it's never a scale that the whole arc has no purpose or ruin a character. That a big stretch your putting assumption on when it isn't and not only that. Your saying retcon stuff on other stuff like Sabo and so forth when he was foreshadowed alive long time ago by Oda.

You can't call it a retcon if the creator plan on foreshadowing and bring something later on to world build and fill up plot holes. How would you feel if he bring in things on big explanation like the Will of D, Three Ancient Weapons, Rafael, Vegapunk, etc.. Since we only them from foreshadowing and a big purpose. Would you honestly said he retcon as well as he fill up their holes in OP history and its not what you expected? That be very stupid logic in your mind if you do think that.

Oda is a planner. He said many times in interviews he plan things through before excuting them especially foreshadow a lot to give hints to us so we always see it coming each time or something big will happen.

I get there where you aiming for, but your acting more close-minded than open minded. None of it was retcon as it was planned and Oda left unfinished plot holes before filling them in in the end. You need to understand the truth, not blinded by yours.

Again with majority? I know people dislike stiff in the arc, but you guys ARE NOT THE MAJORITY (Emphasizing, not yelling) though. Again check on Youtube (Including OP Reviewing Youtubers), Reddit, Twitter, and any popular websites with big OP fanbases.

They think differently of you guys. Your merely a handful and minor group. Sanji and the arc wasn't rruined one bit and that because we are opening our minds on why Oda present what he did on it and many soon understand.

The only people who don't are merely salty on the fights and their theories that didn't come to fruition and now acting like Flambes onto it because like you doing.

You guys are just going to be mad for years to come if you don't open your mind and get meanings of OP instead of solely looking into it on one thing your looking for. McNuss really did said best in describing how you are and how you ignore our words greatly in the end.

You will need to stop being so defensive if your proven wrong as that just look bad on you as a person who can't interact with others until they agree his opinions solely as factual when they are not. No offensive.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It is Sanji and more layer character than before. You seem to think that in your own little world on it and can't seem to open your mind a little to the situation. It seems you need to read back Sanji's character again and try not looking at him solely his fighting moments only please.

I know your reply wasn't aimed at me or anything, but I do consider this arc to be underwhelming overall. So am I a lesser fan now? I felt that a crying Sanji was a huge stretch. And I personally don't feel like I need reasons to back up my opinion. Why? Because I've been following One Piece ever since I was a teenager. It's not about my expectations, though feeling that Sanji could kick some asses during the arc is not an indication of being a lesser fan who only wants characters to develop through fighting... But it is about my overall perception of the arc. Overall, it feels underwhelming. Unnatural. Forced. Sanji's characterization executed in a way that some fans just refuse to take it for what it is.

Many? Who is this many? I only see complainers like you looking at Sanji like he was something else when he wasn't. I seen you arguing with other members to push your opinions as fact when it isn't. Head to Youtube (Including Youtubers who review One Piece frequently), Twitter, Reddit, etc.. And come back and tell me if the "Majority" said Sanji as a character is over? Cause sorry to tell you this in your narrow mind.....They aren't seeing your way. I only see an handful of you type complaining solely on the fights and how many didn't get their theories right with the arc as their gripes on complaining.

Even among the YouTube OP reviewers there is a huge chunk of those who didn't like the arc all that much. In fact many of them agree that the arc could have been executed better. I see it as 30-40% of OP readers didn't like the arc all that much. I could ask some of my Japanese friends if you'd like to know their opinion.

Thinking Sanji's character is over is VERY close-minded. Proves your more not a true fan or worse your like the character Flambe from how your acting as you let this arc thinking its rubbed the character when it didn't. Just like how she thought Katakuri was ruined as a character as his actions toward her, but it only improve his character latter on.

Your definition of a true fan is ridiculous. Stop being so apologetic about the story. One Piece is a fantastic story but some of you guys are being way too aggressive when you come across some other fans who just happen to dislike something that you like. So what if he sees it his way? He's still a fan. Otherwise he'd probably not care at all.

I am not a extreme fanboy if your implying. I know Oda makes mistakes, but it's never a scale that the whole arc has no purpose or ruin a character. That a big stretch your putting assumption on when it isn't and not only that. Your saying retcon stuff on other stuff like Sabo and so forth when he was foreshadowed alive long time ago by Oda.

Oda can plan far far far ahead, but eventually some things end up being executed poorly. For me personally, Sabo's backstory was so so. Same I can say about Sanji's 'prince-ness'.

Oda is a planner. He said many times in interviews he plan things through before excuting them especially foreshadow a lot to give hints to us so we always see it coming each time or something big will happen.

Doesn't excuse him from making mistakes. Which he does. Because he is a human being above everything else.

No offensive.

All of you guys are kinda offensive to one degree or another. Chill, bros.

 

[McNuss]

Before this becomes a majority argument, the majority of readers don't visit manga forums, much less actually write on them and the same can be applied to Youtube as well. I have watched like three YT theories ever. YT is too much clickbait and too less discussion for me.

The majority of One Piece fans outside of Japan don't even read the manga, they watch the anime instead. And many don't put too much thought into it.

In addition there is a huge language barrier between the international and the japanese and other asian communities.

We are actually a small minority.

 

[King Moe]

I know your reply wasn't aimed at me or anything, but I do consider this arc to be underwhelming overall. So am I a lesser fan now? I felt that a crying Sanji was a huge stretch. And I personally don't feel like I need reasons to back up my opinion. Why? Because I've been following One Piece ever since I was a teenager. It's not about my expectations, though feeling that Sanji could kick some asses during the arc is not an indication of being a lesser fan who only wants characters to develop through fighting... But it is about my overall perception of the arc. Overall, it feels underwhelming. Unnatural. Forced. Sanji's characterization executed in a way that some fans just refuse to take it for what it is.



Even among the YouTube OP reviewers there is a huge chunk of those who didn't like the arc all that much. In fact many of them agree that the arc could have been executed better. I see it as 30-40% of OP readers didn't like the arc all that much. I could ask some of my Japanese friends if you'd like to know their opinion.



Your definition of a true fan is ridiculous. Stop being so apologetic about the story. One Piece is a fantastic story but some of you guys are being way too aggressive when you come across some other fans who just happen to dislike something that you like. So what if he sees it his way? He's still a fan. Otherwise he'd probably not care at all.



Oda can plan far far far ahead, but eventually some things end up being executed poorly. For me personally, Sabo's backstory was so so. Same I can say about Sanji's 'prince-ness'.



Doesn't excuse him from making mistakes. Which he does. Because he is a human being above everything else.



All of you guys are kinda offensive to one degree or another. Chill, bros.

Pea, you actually are proving my point on the type of "fans" you guys are reacting to the arc and not how you guys said it. Not saying fans aren't allow to have opinions and not like something from a series, but to go as far as said Oda has bad writing or done writing anything good or to even said Sanji as a character is finish is the true big stretch as you guys are grasping for something that is hardly true at all.

Crying Sanji? How is that a stretch of character? How your saying like that feel like it shows you never watch the series at all or you forgot about early OP that Sanji have cried before and that was when he was leaving Baratie, his home with his coworkers/friends and father figure, Zeff. Saying he can't cry is pretty stupid as Sanji can cry, but he hardly does as it's only in rare moments in OP series about anything (Unless comical moments concerning females like Nami and Robin, but they are comical so they don't count and also with any of the main cast that cry on these moments too). Plus every Strawhat member in the crew had cry before whether before, during, or after joining the crew. Even Zoro cried a few times in OP's life with the prominent when he lost to Mihawk and make that vow to Luffy and he is also one of the few that rarely cries as well. There is no shame in letting out your feelings as not everyone need to be hard as stone and be unable to show emotion. It help them feel more relatable that way than being mindless and emotionless.

There was fighting for Sanji in there as you see in the manga/anime, but many are more complaining that he didn't defeat an very higher up enemy as you and saw him with his clashes and he defeated likes of Yonji and Raisin, so saying he "never fought in the arc" is ignoring blatantly. Sanji is capable of fighting on the lvl of people like Daifuku and Oven and probably could take on anyone higher, but the fighting wasn't the main focus of the arc as it was something else they were focusing instead. Not saying I don't want to see him fight as I am sure he will get his more fighting moments in the future for show as it's obvious Oda will still use his main characters including Sanji. Though the main theme of the arc was not to dominate or control the area like other arcs like Dressora, Alabasta, etc.. It was an rescue mission arc like Impel Down and also to get the Road Poneglyphs. Few/Some of you went in thinking it be like an big battlefield like that when that isn't so. It's not so much Oda did something wrong and it was a bad arc as majority would fight you on that and have explain the purpose about it.

The main reason being is that few/some of you came in thinking on wanting more fights and got your theories wrong on how it went and start blasting the arc for not being what you think. Nothing was force, out of place, retcon, etc.. Oda played everyone to their keen roles and Sanji's character was more emphasizes in layers than before especially right idea in making the cake to stop Big Mom's hunger which one point would have kill the Strawhats if he never make it since no one in Luffy's side could have taken or beaten her as shown as she easily shrug off Luffy even when he was in Gear 4th. It's better this way than random power up out of no where just for the sake of fighting to fight.

As for the population of who like and dislike it, Not saying there aren't anyone who don't like it, but if we comparing as a whole, majority of those who love it over those who dislike it in the minority. Not really an huge chuck if you look around carefully. I check Youtube, Twitter, Reddit, and other websites I know and while there are those who have issues with it, a lot of people still love the arc in the end. I don't know where you get a huge chuck of people hate it as that's not true even the OP Youtubers didn't state the arc was the worse or even that bad.

Me and others are not being aggressive. Like I said, I don't mind you guys have dislike opinions and I have them too, but the areas your aiming at like saying Oda retcon stuff or a character is ruin forever is not something you should go around saying it's factual when it isn't. We aren't overprotective, but we feel the need to defend as others will take it the wrong way with the series and start spouting fake nonsense or unfactual stuff to make it clear to others when that isn't right.

Now that is a opinion and I respect if you don't like it, but Oda planned those awhile ago as in my post to Ice, Oda likes to foreshadow to us to let us know what will happen with these characters, so you can't complain on it being retcon or serve no purpose for what Oda did with them there as they did really.

Never said Oda doesn't make mistakes. He has before as I will say I dislike certain things like Pell's Nuke explosion, Smoker's power showing in Punk Hazard (Though I doubt that is the end of his character too), etc. I wish for certain things for Oda on what he does, don't get me wrong. Though just saying the ones people are targeting on the last arc, they don't understand the theme of it and why it went the way it did and were expecting something else due to their very high expectations.

Again not offensive, but there others on here who are and you might be one Pea, but so far you seem to try to make the conversation less aggressive, but hard to tell with your post a bit.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Pea, you actually are proving my point on the type of "fans" you guys are reacting to the arc and not how you guys said it.

No I'm not proving you point. You're just labeling people with so called types, which is not how it works. It is like saying there are good fans and bad fans. But that's not what matters. What matters is whether the fans are satisfied with the story or not.

Crying Sanji? How is that a stretch of character? How your saying like that feel like it shows you never watch the series at all or you forgot about early OP that Sanji have cried before and that was when he was leaving Baratie, his home with his coworkers/friends and father figure, Zeff. Saying he can't cry is pretty stupid as Sanji can cry, but he hardly does as it's only in rare moments in OP series about anything (Unless comical moments concerning females like Nami and Robin, but they are comical so they don't count and also with any of the main cast that cry on these moments too). Plus every Strawhat member in the crew had cry before whether before, during, or after joining the crew. Even Zoro cried a few times in OP's life with the prominent when he lost to Mihawk and make that vow to Luffy and he is also one of the few that rarely cries as well. There is no shame in letting out your feelings as not everyone need to be hard as stone and be unable to show emotion. It help them feel more relatable that way than being mindless and emotionless.

That was not my point. Nothing wrong about letting your emotions out. But as I said, it felt unnatural, forced. The whole drama felt bad in a sense. I cried while watching the Baratie arc finale. But I haven't once felt deeply moved emotionally as I read/watched the Whole Cake Island arc. The image of weak (mentally) Sanji was far fetched in my opinion. There were too many emotions and not so much direct growth.

As for the population of who like and dislike it, Not saying there aren't anyone who don't like it, but if we comparing as a whole, majority of those who love it over those who dislike it in the minority. Not really an huge chuck if you look around carefully. I check Youtube, Twitter, Reddit, and other websites I know and while there are those who have issues with it, a lot of people still love the arc in the end. I don't know where you get a huge chuck of people hate it as that's not true even the OP Youtubers didn't state the arc was the worse or even that bad.

Did I ever say they hated the arc? I said they didn't like it all that much.

Again not offensive, but there others on here who are and you might be one Pea, but so far you seem to try to make the conversation less aggressive, but hard to tell with your post a bit.

When you call people names and/or allude to them being this and that, it actually is quite offensive in and of itself.

Irregardless of what you say I will still feel that the arc was lackluster. And it has nothing to do with my "type" as you insist. Fans are fans. I just happen to be one of those who didn't like the arc all that much. The whole argument is absolutely stupid. And I kinda regret my decision to interfere with this heated up debate.

 

[King Moe]

No I'm not proving you point. You're just labeling people with so called types, which is not how it works. It is like saying there are good fans and bad fans. But that's not what matters. What matters is whether the fans are satisfied with the story or not.



That was not my point. Nothing wrong about letting your emotions out. But as I said, it felt unnatural, forced. The whole drama felt bad in a sense. I cried while watching the Baratie arc finale. But I haven't once felt deeply moved emotionally as I read/watched the Whole Cake Island arc. The image of weak (mentally) Sanji was far fetched in my opinion. There were too many emotions and not so much direct growth.



Did I ever say they hated the arc? I said they didn't like it all that much.



When you call people names and/or allude to them being this and that, it actually is quite offensive in and of itself.

Irregardless of what you say I will still feel that the arc was lackluster. And it has nothing to do with my "type" as you insist. Fans are fans. I just happen to be one of those who didn't like the arc all that much. The whole argument is absolutely stupid. And I kinda regret my decision to interfere with this heated up debate.

Well forgive me on that, but how you and others on your arguments seem not as factual as it is more not understanding the theme as each person I come across with an complain on it, misinterpret for something they want to happen, but didn't so hard to tell if opinion is genuine or just for self-centered desires for not getting their wishes. Not so much labeling as others kinda act out in those fashion from what I seen in other websites.

Not really. Your in a situation where your forced to marry someone you never seen or know about, with a family of people who never love or care for you (Minus Reiju, but she has to show it secretly), your in Yonko Territory along with being blackmail of your love one being killed along with your arms being threaten to be blown up as well seeing your friends suffer on trying to get to you. If your in that type of situation, you can't expect to stay perfectly calm and think everything will be alright when you don't know the outcome or future. Sanji have the right to be emotional and cry when Luffy confronted him twice and the one with Pudding thinking she was the one way he can connect with someone with consequences. It wasn't out of character or out of the ordinary as Sanji has be shown with one with emotional among the crew and let it out a bit more than others. You can't say everything is perfectly fine in the end as you have to think in character's perspective, not your perspective if your in a situation like this.

He gained growth out of it a lot more and it was all time nicely with the situation he is dealing with. He make sense on being emotional as it's something of Sanji's past that came back to haunt him and try to ruin his new life with everyone.

Sound like you meant it like hate like with others since your at the point of saying Sanji is "ruined" forever as a character and won't fight again when that isn't true. One arc whether it's good or bad doesn't ruin the whole series at all especially a character to boot. You can't denied some are blowing out of proportion just because things didn't go there way and I am just explaining that from my side of others who are annoyed by those shouting at us on not "thinking" like them.

I didn't say you and others are, but just saying your "acting" like it. There is a difference on how I say it and I didn't mean it you are one, but just act like it. Shouldn't be taken to heart if you can stop being like that as I try to believe the people I talk to can change their attitude if we have a peaceful discussion on it.

Now that is a opinion and I am happy you didn't try to make it factual at least. I respect you on your opinion if you didn't like it, but I hope your not those who gave up hope on the series or character just because things aren't to your liking and don't think it will get better (Or at least in your and other's mindsets on what you want at least). As for the arc, agree to disagree as again many still enjoy the arc and still say positive things on it more than negative, so if we counting the majority, it feels more on the mostly positive side than negative if I am being honest. However, your entitle to your opinion, so if your not into it, fine then.

Wasn't even angry for this to be call an argument. This is more of a debate at best really.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Well forgive me on that...

Thank you for kinda understanding my point of view. I'm not trying to be factual at all. Nor am I willing to give up on the series or claim that Sanji's character is ruined. Just not into this kinda writing.

 

[King Moe]

Thank you for kinda understanding my point of view. I'm not trying to be factual at all. Nor am I willing to give up on the series or claim that Sanji's character is ruined. Just not into this kinda writing.

Your welcome. Thank you for also speaking to me peaceful from your side and hearing from my end on the matter.

I am glad you aren't those at least who think like that and seeing the bigger picture at least that the series isn't over and good stuff is to come along with Sanji with more fighting moments too.

We all just need patient with a series like One Piece since as it set things up, the good stuff will come around later on. I am sure you fine stuff more to your liking then.