You were wanting a post describing what is going on about the document that has been leaked. Well, here it is.
Before that though, let me take a minute to remind you what MH stands for. That is respect to those that create something.
In any and all cases of scanlation or translation stealing we have taken swift action to resolve the issue. From going to other sites to request - to banning the group/people/individual responsible. Why? Because we respect the work that people put into each thing they do.
The document posted was us presenting an opportunity for a great publisher to work with what we believe are the greatest fans they have. Each week fans of all kinds of manga dedicate their time, effort, and energy to help let others enjoy manga. That is the solid reason why MangaHelpers' name is Manga Helpers. People helping others enjoy it. With this in mind, along with Crunchyroll's successful business model we created that draft.
As you can see from spelling errors, grammar mistakes and the likes, it is still in a very VERY rough form (that means draft) and extremely far from presentable. Why it was leaked at such a state is beyond me, and yet is has. And we are dealing with it.
The goal behind presenting that document to a company was so that we can promote the fans -- not their work. We wanted to create a bridge between publisher and fan (scanlator - translator - artist) to help everyone work together and not only make online distribution legitimate, but to increase the amount of released manga by promoting the talented translators, editors and artists we have at MH. Through working with them, perhaps faster and better quality raws would have been do-able (like Crunchyroll and their episodes). Or even professional translators helping out other translators on the site -- sharing their experience and know how. By making what fans are doing legitimate, or at least finding a medium, we could have progressed so much further than being pirates leeching from the publishers.
Our goal was to find a way to support the publishers while keeping the fans -- community -- and those that work hard each week satisfied. Has this leak changed things? Probably so. As a result, when online distribution comes, chances are it'll be no different from anything in the past. Not saying that it's a bad thing, but it could be so much better.
In the end, all we were working for was a better place for everyone to enjoy the surreal worlds each manga introduces us to. In the end, we wanted to do good for everyone. Maybe, miraculously, something good may still come of all of this.
For now, that is all we have to say.
Taylor, Founder of MangaHelpers.
P.S. Just so we are crystal clear on this: As I stated in the opening, we respect everyone and the work they do. There were no plans for handing over any translations - scanlations or art that was released here. Our goal was for those that want to work with the official companies to have an easier shot at getting recognized. So anything and everything would be voluntary.
Again LET me reinstate.
Absolutely NO work from anyone - come Translator - Scanlator - or Artist will be used without their written permission. We have never, nor will we ever take anything from any fan contributing without them agreeing it is OK to be used.
That has always and will always be the way MH is run.
Jesus, just leave MH as it is now - don't give this fake crap that it's "for the users". Like hell it is.
Money is a very powerful and corruptible tool.
lol wut?
MH has become the way it is now is because of the non-profit ideology it propose from the very beginning. Should that very base collapse now, I doubt anything else would stand.
Let me reiterate: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LUMLXMWK
If you delete this you won't hide the fact, people can google it you know (as I did).
Doing this behind the back of the community was the biggest mistake MH ever did.
And I don't believe the explanation given. More likely this immature plan was the attempt to sell out the work of our community and it's people... Because there's no company sane out there who would agree to such a ridiculous deal...
I'm a scanlator, and like hell I want to associate myself with the official publishers. Eff that. =/
You're going to go down, MH, and fall flat on your face with no one to help pick you up. Stop while you can.
It's the work of months to plan and collect such a market research. Go and bury your millionaire dreams somewhere... This game is over...
I read it three times now, and no where did it mention anything about selling out scanlation products or whatever. This thing is merely a plan to use MH as a distribution center for commercial digital copies of various series. While it did mention the possibility of becoming a bridge between freelance groups and copyright holders, it it not the main focus of this proposal.
So seriously, read before you start running your mouth. If you have something constructive to say, then go ahead, please. Otherwise, pure ranting is just silly and unproductive.
Read this: http://freetexthost.com/0mx2pnuhpw
Also, are there comments deleted? And why did bax get banned?
MH, you're dead
MH helped you, & if you don't like it get lost; no one's forcing you. It doesn't matter what MH does anyway. The licensors are money-grubbers, & if you don't cut em a big enough slack, there's no deal.
Either way, it's a win-win situation: if it becomes official, easier to get the job done; if not, it stays the same. No big deal, just forget it & let things be.
Well, apart from giving him incentive to leave his computer and get some IRL rest as he was pretty knackered.... yeah, you tell me! :p
Again, what lies? I've read it 3 times over already, I don't see where njt is "lying" regarding the situation as well as the premise of the proposal. Care to share?
Again, what's the lies? About it being a draft?
Or do you intend to be a part of that scam?
Official manga online is a stupid idea that will go nowhere.
Is buying the actual manga in physical form a lost concept here? :1
State the obvious, instead of blurting gibberish.
Also, just so you know, I'm not part of anything. I don't even moderate the site for crying out loud.
There you have it... Lol...
I'm not working for you... Or anyone else who didn't ask me before...
And it's a bad thing to show appreiciation to the authors by paying a small amount of fee?
There's nothing to be had, sorry, swing and miss.
If you're paying for the manga, who the hell is gunna opt to have it on a backlit screen to read, rather than having the book itself?
Stay where you are and let your work get controlled by others...
I'm gone and free to do what I want...
(and yeah, I pay for mangas)
I'll go to jcafe24.net, where a lot of translators, scanlators and raw providers meet...
There will be soon a new alternative to MH...
However, I don't think going to Viz was the best thing to do... if it had have worked, chances are this would have become another Tazmo.
You raise a good point, and I agree with you to some extend.
The biggest objection I have with the whole thing is the fact that njt and others are trying to work something out with Viz... Which is stupid.
What they should do/should've done is to try to work something with the Japanese publishers directly.
However, do you honestly believe that njt would abandon groups continue wishing to work on their independent scanlations? Have some faith.
However, reading through that business plan, I was quite amused at the "stop the proliferation of illegal scanlations! Illegal scanlations are evil!" rhetoric by a website whose community is *entirely built on the proliferation of illegal scanlations.* Without illegal scanlations, there is no MangaHelpers. There is no market value. There is no business plan.
I'd have to read through whole long thing again to get an exact quote, and I'm too lazy to do that, but I believe even in the business plan there was a thing about the "vast archive of free online translations" or some crap. And don't get me started on the e-mail. I know it's going to take one hell of an explanation before I, for one, would feel safe posting a translation on this site again.
1. It's cheaper. I personally spend about 50 USD a month buying Japanese Manga from Japan, with the majority of the money going into shipping. Digital copies would allow me to access the books I want with less cost, and I would be more than willing to "purchase" more books and support more authors I like, while cutting the shipping/printing factories out.
2. It's environment friendly. My heart bleeds everytime I think about the carbon footprint I leave getting the 2 magazines + 4~5 tanks a month. Buying digital copies would at least make me feel better.
3. No one is asking to do away with traditional books. If you want to buy them, fine, but don't use that as a lame excuse to disallow digital copies. It's already been tried with Music CD's, and failed.
However, I'm gunna go ahead and asume the majority of manga fans are sane like myself, and would rather have something tangible for their money.
I dont think there'll be any big money in it at all tbh.
A little trust can go a long way. While I understand the distrust between the commercial companies and the fans, don't you guys think that if anything should become mutually beneficial, njt might be the one able to do it?
Granted, I hate the way the e-mail is pitching, and the fact that the e-mail was directed at Viz instead of Shueisha/Kodansha/Shogakukan/Hakusensha... But it has the potential to become something wonderful.
Instead of shooting down the whole thing, steer it in the right direction!
However, the reality is as it is, and we can't really do much to "rid the world of capitalism". What we can do is to try and benefit the consumers the most while keeping the greed component down.
As I've mentioned in multiple posts, my objection/suggestion regarding this whole thing is simple: CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN (VIZ) AND TAKE IT STRAIGHT TO THE PUBLISHERS!
Let me just ask you this simple question:
"Who would you rather be in charge of possible commercial digital distribution of manga? Viz or njt?"
As long as the company get their money, and we doesnt hurt their income badly they wouldnt even care about us (japanese publishers)
Beside, do those company (Viz) even want to work with us? The one who would get recognized probably the translators, and leaving the rest of the team out of the picture.
I mean, one thing I hate the most is when someone tell us one thing on one end and do it in another. (That's why I hate people who, while saying that they're promoting people to buy licensed manga, posted up the raw from all those licensed manga on their sites) If MH wants to make their business with Viz or whatever, they better ask for raw providers/translators/scanlators first, or else that measure they tried to put up about "stealing people's translations/scanlations" and "hosting manga on the commercial servers" would be nothing but a mere hypocritic statement. If they really are going to coperate with Viz and hand our work over to them, without our consents, it's nothing more than the worst stealing case ever (since you're not only stealing, but are making money out of it). I'd lose trust and faith in MH completely if that ever happens. Just give the scanlators and translators the rights to say no, and respect our decision.
I can't completely read the whole thing, since I'm probably one of the people who always finds njt's post confusing and hard to understand. I have no time to make sense of it right now, with projects and exams before me. I only read the other side of the argument (not the whole document though).
But...
Got to be honest...I don't want that though. If I want recognition from the official companies, why would I need to make it through MH? People can just go to the company themselves if they want to. :S
Seriously, do you really call youselves fans when you don't want to support the authors?
What exactly is the main purpose of scanlating? It is to allow more people access to manga that they don't normally have access to. Why else do we say that we encourage people to actually buy the commercial publications!? What kind of fans are you? How can you even call yourselves "fans"?
You kept claiming that "fans hate companies", and yet it is the only pathway people can use to show their appreciation for the authors.
Again, back to my point, tell njt to skip the middle man like Viz and deal straight with the Japanese publishers.
What you're suggesting is like asking a cancer tumor to try to make itself back into normal cells.
And the way njt is trying to deal with Viz is the same as telling a cancer tumor that we'll give you more nutrients, so please don't grow even more.
Both ideas are completely illogical.
Seriously... has anyone actually READ over the whole thing?
I read it three times now, and no where did it mention anything about selling out scanlation products or whatever. This thing is merely a plan to use MH as a distribution center for commercial digital copies of various series. While it did mention the possibility of becoming a bridge between freelance groups and copyright holders, it it not the main focus of this proposal.
So seriously, read before you start running your mouth. If you have something constructive to say, then go ahead, please. Otherwise, pure ranting is just silly and unproductive.
___
People are lazzy, very lazzy. I agree with you, I've just read the whole document and I believe these people going fury on MH is just stupid and jumped to conclusions.
I never, even once, saw MH asking for donations to maintain the site.
I give you that doing it behind the community was the most DUMB move.
Surely, some groups will defect from here...
From the beginning the scanlation community is an underground community and it will always be the same for years to come.
Also,HASJ. The document may only talk about making MH a means of distributing manga but you should consider the implications. If Viz post's their own manga on MH and distributs them for a small fee through the site, they obviously can't let free scanlations of the same manga available here. Unless the scanlation groups work for Viz, which the proposal seems to suggest with MH acting as the middle man b/w Viz and scanlations. If the groups refuse to work with Viz, they are forced to stop their work or leave. In any case, refusal to cooperate means exile for them. This means the deal will leave the scanlation groups with little choice and they won't exactly be happy with MH, you know.
They did say on the letter there are "(professional) translators and image cleaners/typesetters who already publish their work at MangaHelpers for free" but as far as i understood this means there are qualified professionals that could agree to work with Viz and get paied as a normal worker would rence the whole explanation here "Our goal was for those that want to work with the official companies to have an easier shot at getting recognized"
This whole deal with Viz might not be a good thing and i agree with that whoever i cant see MangaHelpers acting dishonest with us or using the work done for free by many to make money.
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From Groub.
My view on this is, organized scanlation groups don’t even use MangaHelpers. Those who use MangaHelpers are people who don’t want to dedicate themselves to a group nor series and just submit their work once in a while. The price for the freedom from pressure is lack of control for quality. Look, if I care about the quality my translations are typeset, I’ll contact people I know that are good, or just do it myself. Translations that I’ve done, but dropped and I don’t care about anymore, get to be posted on MangaHelpers. Claiming to be a community of quality scanlators is nothing but attempt to sell themselves as expensive as possible to Viz.
It’s bad enough what sites like onemanga and mangafox is pulling, getting revenue by hosting essentially free manga contributed by the community, but this attempt to sell themselves out to Viz is disgusting.
Viz might even buy the information and try to sue the scanlators working there.
Stay away from MangaHelpers. Now.
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From Average Joe.
I am a scanlator who has released on MH quite a few times. I find this whole “business venture” (as they express over and over again on their nicely-put business plan) irritating.
I started scanlating to see that a specific manga get scanlated, I eventually got around and we started to release more and more, I always loathed sites that profited from somebody else’s work. I don’t have a site, I release wherever I find a place, I get zero, zilch, nada profit. I do this for the joy of ME reading the manga. I don’t even do it for the community. And now some site wants to make profit out of the hours I put weekly into scanlating? I don’t mind the ads to get some money, after all, they do provide DDL and online read and those servers cost money.
I think it’s a lose for MH in the end. They’re going to lose a lot of people if this deal goes through, and the fact that they’re losing people simply for just TRYING to make a profit, and a rumor that a couple of admins already left because of this. It seems not everyone within the staff is on the same page.
I guess all we can do is sit on the sidelines and hope this goes the way of the dodo. I’d hate to see such a great community being split apart.
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From Madness
Maybe we all should just go to Mangashare.
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from Kratos86
I can’t imagine anybody going along with this; it’s absurd. If all they do is host scanlations, there’s no reason that would keep scanlators posting their work if they don’t get a scrap of profit. Scanlations are done on the whims of those working on them – if they don’t have a contract of some sort, they could simply stop scanlating, and that won’t do MH any good. This is a really stupid move.
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from me..
if this goes through..
we will just stop coming here.
its up to individual choices.
I can always go to onemanga or other sites to read for free...
beside i want to read it faster and more understandable than what the publisher in my country do.
Viz ain't gonna listen to your proposal. They're N. America distributors. They have their own website.
Japanese publishers ain't gonna listen. They are 120% against the whole distribution thing.
Oxwil's post was dead-on: "if it becomes official, easier to get the job done; if not, it stays the same. No big deal, just forget it & let things be."
Besides, as NJT pointed out himself, show me the employee-quality translators & editors. This is more like a show and tell than an actual portfolio quality website. If you wanna land a job with the hotshots, listen to what the pros like HBK said: go to conventions and pound the pavement. You gotta go to them, not they come to you, sorry to say.
I guess what I'm getting at here is, if this shit goes through are you guys going to start deleting raws left and right?
Viz is Shueisha. Or rather, Shueisha is Viz. Viz is a owned by Shueisha despite being located in America. That's the reason that SJ is published by Viz in the U.S.
What I'm actually concerned about is Section 5.4, Competition (page 19 in the business plan). You know, the one that says that the new MangaHelpers will face competition from the large illegal scanlation community, and that its clients should help by trying to shut down those sites? By reasonable extrapolation, we can assume the section also refers to scanlator sites which link to their releases, i.e. all of them. So MH wants to "go legal," and then shut down the entire network it relied upon, leaving only itself to ensure no competition from those wretched illegals... That's a classy move.
Perhaps there's no "good" way to make the transition from illegal to legal, but starting a business to profit from the transition is probably not the best path. At any rate, the scanlation community -- which exists solely around the principle of laboring for love of manga, not money or copyright issues -- will be very resistant, given the business-oriented nature of your proposition. I think this would have been better brokered through an open dialogue with Viz and/or the Japanese publishers, not a business plan sent in secrecy.
Just noticed this in the main post, whether it was just added or I missed it, its good to know.
I don't however, like the part Nihil mentioned about them attempting to restrict the scanlation scene, i mean, its what made managahelpers popular. I just hope its a error in interpretation.
And I agree there Sable, but I thought someone mentioned RAWs were already being deleted? If thats true, then i dont see how theres any way to stop them?
Until more companies deal with Crunchyroll the way Directions (distributor of Eve no Jikan/Time of Eve) is correctly dealing with Crunchyroll, it will stay that way.
AnimeNewsNetwork's site is a better example of what should happen. They maintain a good balance of power to the people and kindness to the companies.
"Clients can also help to curb this factor by being strict in controlling the illegal distributions, now that the target market already has an easy to access and affordable means in obtaining manga. MangaHelpers realizes the need to control the distribution of the native digital contents (RAWs) to tackle this from the source. A discussion with the providers will help communicate MangaHelpers' intentions to this group." (Page 19, MangaHelpers Business Plan)
Well that's just ridiculous then. The fact that they want to take down what made them big is pure greed, in my opinion.
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So anything and everything would be voluntary.
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Doesn't the concept of voluntary work only fully exist in Charity and Humanitary organizations.They get funded through donations and event's ad's.
and their human resource department mostly consists of Voluntaries.
all of their profit made through held event donations etc and are sent back onto the community.even importantly the organizations give the voluntaries bus/food money too.
but in this case what do we scanlators get in return?.
a jail sentence?/since Shueshia/Viz is bound to ban any scanlators from here if they get the chance./
or a second job were we have to pay excessive amounts of time and effort freely?.
wasn't this reason for some groups to disband(Geisha).
I thought this was a site for the fans and by the fans. No wonder many drastic changes happened around the community in the last few months. Might work, or it might not work seeing as there are endless online manga sites to read from.
And when MH slows down, surely other communities will pick up.
at least that's my two cents and a penny
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from mangaupdates
Well, what a shocking piece of news.
So they intended to involve only those who will voluntary participate. What about those who won't, wouldn't that put them in danger of prosecution? I can see this deal as a gateway, I mean, what's stopping MH to selling those information if the plan doesn't go smoothly? Sort of reminds me of the whole Google/YT incident. laugh
I scanned through the "business proposal draft," and all I got out of that is Pay to Read. All and all, MH is just taking the opportunity to capitalized which isn't really a crime in itself, but there are other parties and instances involved.
I don't visit MH that often (on very rare occasions), so I really don't have strong opinions about this, but I think that this could affect the future of scanlations. I don't really think it will work smoothly for everybody if this follows through.
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I'm probably stupid but I really don't understand.
Scanlating manga is illegal. It's a reproduction of copyrighted material, or I'm wrong? It's a tolerated phenomenon since it remains "underground" and it's probably impossible to stop it in the internet.
But If a registered company gets involved every mangaka can sue it. So why should Viz get involved into this?
There is something I missed or I misunderstood?
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-_- Well, I haven't really used MH til recently to get Kekkashi raws and I can quite easily stop using it since I had other sources before (though not as organized). But I have to say, this move they are trying to pull is like tazmo and crunchyroll and I feel like it's just not going to work out. In fact, doing this is probably going to rat out the whole community (though I'm sure they are already sure it exists). I can't really see any good coming from this besides Viz getting some cash from not only their licensed manga, but other manga that they haven't even licensed.
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Making money off scans is wrong no matter how you look at it.
---------------------------------
The more I read that announcement, the more I wonder whether they would have been better served by just lying and saying the document isn't real or it was part of an elaborate April fools joke that's gone horribly wrong. You'd think they'd use a more humble tone rather than go with the nutty "I'm doing this all for you!" speech.
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i would be fine if viz tried to give scanlation groups legal permission to do what they do or even pay groups to add ads to the end of their scans, but to make MH a pay-per-view site is insulting to the scanlators.
the other thing that pissed me off is that the founder of MH had the audacity to say:
Quote
As you can see from spelling errors, grammar mistakes and the likes it is still in a very VERY rough form and extremely far from presentable. Why it was leaked at such a state is beyond me, but yet is has. And we are dealing with it.
the way he says that makes me think that he feels like he is innocent and he was wronged by the people who blew the whistle on him. that just pisses me off.
edit: i think he screwed himself over when he let his true feelings show with this:
Quote
By making what fans are doing legitimate, or at least finding a medium, we could have progressed so much further than being pirates leeching from the publishers.
"I mean does anybody really think that Viz doesn't know that mangahelpers or baka-updates exists? It takes like 2 seconds to find them through google. They probably know about most free-manga sites and frankly it just isn't in their interest to shut them down right now."
' If the American (and Japanese for that matter) really want to shut all of this down, they would. What stops them is two thing, well one thing for two reasons
1.money
2.money
The first is the cost it would take to shut down all these companies and the potential law suits, it wouldn't be in their best interest to deal with the court feas
and the second is this. many, many, many, manga fans read online as well as buy. and many first are introduced to series through reading online. If they were thrown in jail or the sites were shut down, then there goes a HUGE chunk of their market, and the go out of business faster.'
2. For fans who does nothing but complaining, think again. This situation is not a lose for you, it just go back to normal, "Nothing is free in this world." And i do think "Thank you for scanslating this" is the lowest/highest fee (read gratitude) a scanslator can get.
3. As for the arrangement with Viz, i do think this needs to stop. I cant really say otherwise. And i dont think njt is planning to sell people. How long have you guys been here and know njt? Of course, this is internet and you shouldnt believe others, but there are some thing u cant hide such as personality. I still have faith in njt.
what your saying is wrong for many reasons..
for example a scanlation groups don't do scanlation with 'Nothings free' in mind.
they do this in sole reason of sharing love for manga.
and also the issue @ hand right now is how will affect MH will have if Viz buys it.
i mean if MH becomes pay per view online reader..
people will just go to others such as Onemanga etc.they free..
they don't say much. a perfect free version of future MH.
there is also a good fill in for mh if they get bought..
namely mangashare.
also scanlators will just have to buy their raws through donations.like some teams today.
but what mh will affact is its own community.losing faithful members and such.
also there is a possibility of MH ratting out on other scanlation teams in pressure from VIZ. it endangers current and future scanlation groups.
and the direction of the underground manga community.
see the bigger picture.
I agree, but there's no saying that Viz will "buy" this site and makes it their own.
Plus the series that they own are so little compare to what MH hosts right now.
And i perfectly knows what happened with CR, so i dont want that thing to repeat here too.
And this whole "njt selling people/scanslators out" thing is too much. Do you think njt would just go "Ok, you can have this translator and make him translate xxx manga for you" . No , i dont think that's what njt has in mind. There's no telling if Viz will accept the deal too after seeing this kind of response (and i do wish this wont happen).
And i am a bit sad with "Let's not come here anymore" when things are not finalize yet. Just say you're against it, but why drag other ppl in it?
I am against this thing, and i hope njt reconsider it. That's all.
When they grow too big, they get greedy and try to take advantage of their popularity. People don't like it and jump over to the next site.
Just face it, (most) people aren't going to pay for something they EASILY have access to for free. If I couldn't find free manga, I wouldn't read any.
In the end just drop the ideas altogether. it would only threat the community as a whole. remember that much of what we do here are considered illegal anyway.
Seriously leave MH as it is. MH stays as independent, non-profit and free community.
string attach to these north american publisher gonna make difficult for us in other part of the world accessing them (plus waaaaay expensive)
1.You want to legalize some manga scanlations
2. You want to profit from that
3. You are going to put prices on scanlations
4. You will uses your influence stop the scanlations of manga that are being digitize
I really don't think this will work out since we do this for free we don't look for profit or anything just a simple thank is all it take. If we wanted to profit we wouldn't have put it in Mangahelpers since is free to download and read our work. If you really do this most of the fans will go somewhere else since we are cheap bas*****. It will only ruin all what you have work for. We may even disperse and work with other websites. I mean there are other means of getting raws and scanlations. At the end you will be left in bankruptcy with no fans or scanlators to do the work. I mean if I really want to pay for a manga it will be to the authers not to a third party.
I see why now. And it makes me really sad. This was the best manga community, made of ordinary people and that's what makes MH the best. But getting in business with publishers and behind people back is something you should never do. But you already did. I'm very disappointed. Is it money or what? Coz no one will buy that crap "it the best for community".
One Manga is going to get a lot more traffic I'm afraid.
Viz- Go to hell.
Previously manga was a rare thing found on the Internet because many fans wanted to publicize the stories. Now that companies have seen profit in these stories, we are pitchers for a corner and pointed out as villains.
If it were not for this community and many other, manga would not have viability in the world.
Viz has their own site and as it relates to reading manga online, they make provisions for that. I don't see a good partnership being formed with scanlators. From a business standpoint, a large corporation as that would want to have a proper 'employment' system in place. Just using our alias, email address and going....'hey, I'm a scanlator' wouldn't matter to them. In addition to that, the int'l scanlators will be left out and hell..scanlators not in North America may be left out too. At the end of the day, only a few groups will be left and MH would become a ghost of it's former self.
I'll stick around MH of course. My group is already releasing titles that are not hosted here and really...this wouldn't affect us majorly. As someone stated before, there are other sites on which raws can be hosted and translators are free to roam where they choose. I'm hoping though, that it never gets to that stage and this is resolved amicably.
there are sites like
www.mangashare.com
www.mangaempire.com
etc...
im sure if you disapear out off mh you won't have 2 worry about being rated out or anything like that, just stay calm till the issue is clear ^^
like I allways say
pray for the best but be ready for the worst
Look, you guys are skirting around the core of why none of this would work anyway, and why no publisher, mangaka, or distributor wants to work with scanlators in the first place.
So let me spell it out for you.
There are two different groups and both with different reasons for doing what they do. First, let's look at scanlators themselves. Scanlators do this work because they either like the stories, like the work, and want to share those stories and work with others or they like to be the center of attention, like people praising them, and use their talents to procure said attention and praise. Sometimes is a mixture of both. Another reason the workers do what they do is because it's a creative outlet in which they control the amount of time they spend working on it, where they work on it, and when they work on it. No strings attached, no pressure, no guilt if they don't have the time or energy to get things done. That's one of the reasons I did it.
So why wouldn't scanlators do this for money? Well, some of them would. But you'd have to figure that you'd lose at least 60% of the work force simply because it's turning a hobby into a job. Of the 40% that are left, you'd have to set "industry standards" on the work they do. 20% of those would fail. And miserably. So that leaves you with about 20% of the work force remaining and getting paid...which would leave you right back where you started: slow official releases bound by advertising and marketing plans and people who really don't care about the work itself.
Next, we have the fans. Oh, the fans. I guess I should really call them the consumers in this case. But anyway, for sake of simplicity (and typing fans is faster than typing consumers), I'll call them fans.
The fans read scanlations for 2 reasons. 1) they like the manga, and 2) it's free. Don't like me saying that? Tough shit, it's the truth. Don't give me any of this "we support the mangaka" bullshit. You want your free shit and you want it now. Be honest with yourself and accept it. I mean really, why pay $10 for official releases when you can get it free months and sometimes years before the official release comes out? And often the releases are better quality than the official. ...okay, that's a lie. SOMEtimes it's better. So....free, fast, easy to access or expensive, slow, fuck-me-I-have-to-leave-the-house? Guess which wins.
And here's your first lesson in economics (and also the reason why a capitalist, non-government controlled market works so well): The reason why American manga publishers are having to lay off workers and scale way back on their releases is that there simply isn't the market for more. The reasons why companies fail is because the market doesn't benefit from them. In a market like ours, bad companies, companies that have bad ideas, or simply suck are naturally weeded out. No bailouts, no "'let's save these guys".
So. "Teh Plan" was a bad idea. Could never, and will never work. Scanlators want no strings, and fans want their free shit. Simple.
As for if NJT was planning on using scanlators' work to make a buck, well, there's no proof. Sure, there's lots of circumstantial evidence, history, and human nature working against his story. But I can't condemn anybody without solid evidence, or a good argument. Would I be deleting every bit of raws, releases, and artwork I've ever uploaded to them right now? Fuck yeah. if I cared enough too.
But I don't. So there.
*goes back to school*
Oh no, what the ef?
is it means that MH sells us?
Okay okay. . .
But whatever will happened, I'll still love MH (maybe). It's cuz of it's easy to discuss at MH's forum, meet a ton of good Mangahelper guys, bla bla bla, n fast way for uploading a scanlation. Serve online viewing n ddl on one click when uploading manga to MH. Whatever about ur team is a newbie, with international translation, etc, it's as soon as appears when ur upload process is done.
and about i-manga(store, lol) -
i realy hate it
n if it's happened, I'll stop scanlating manga here
but why a lot of u ppls mind to leave MH ?
Just do something like hiring or demonstration (lol) to make MH back with it's non-profit form a way before VIZ's -MAKE MONEY FOR IT'S OWN BENEFITS- VIRUS spread here, here, there n there at MH.
And forget about all of this nightmare
maybe it's just NJT's confessions
so, it's better to support him to make MH back to its non profit form, say goodbye to viz than pushed him with all of u ppls's coarse language
Thanks ^_^
[was edited by myself cuz I don't want my coarse thing posted here, sorry]
1- high probability it wont work.
1.1 if it doesnt work. MH gonna suffer a set back.
1.2 if it works, well it will lose much audience wanting free stuff.
2- there is no clear indication that MH wants to sell of other people's (free work) for their own money. (i read that leaked business plan 2 times)
i would say, stick to mangahelpers. they been around for a long time now, "helping" us in getting our weekly dozes of manga. eventually, if they have bad intentions, we would know about it. and MH wont be the same again. (they do still have my faith in them).
And maybe i am wrong on this, but when he mentioned that "everything would be voluntary", what comes into my mind is that he is saying, under the guise that it is for connection to official companies, that all the work that the scanlators and translator had done or will be doing in the future are free labor so that mh can profit off of it. In the email, it did say that this "could potentially give Viz a very large newfound revenue source, to the hundreds of (professional) translators and image cleaners/typesetters who already publish their work at MangaHelpers for free." What could the newfound revenue source be but free labor?
i agree with working directly with japanese publisher, cut the viz crap if viz own this place it just going to be another tazmo.
viz is north american publisher for god sake, think rest of the world for the love of god.
i like to own my manga in tangible form and i do buy original japanese manga of the series i like just to support the mangaka.
completely agree with SableTheTruth.
I'm new to MH so I can't exactly say I know NJT...
Being a founder of MH and all, I respect his position
but I still think it was a mistake not letting us know first.
I'm afraid I must agree, even though I'm just a regular user. I'm still with you, MH, but.. really, I'm somewhat dissapointed. I don't know even how to be constructive about that, so just let you know I'm somewhat dissapointed. So the only real matter in this world is really money, because I can't see it the other way around. I'm sorry.
I dont know what others are feeling but i for one SALUTE this endeavour of MH to go out to VIZ and do what is the future of manga Industry.
This is what i think will happen if this deal goes through.
1. More mangas will be available for reading for worldwide audience.
To explain this point let me ask all of you people, WHY do we not get almost 99% manga of Japan translated in our languages
reasons being
a) cost of printing
b) Cost of marketing
c) Fear of not enough revenue
With this plan i guess more and more jap mangas will see English translation and will benefit both readers and publishers... Just try asking a group to do your favourite seinen manga(in my case being Lupin series, Golgo 13, One outs etc)
2. Manga online will be a cost efficient offering
U get WSJ for i guess almost 5-6$ in japan, 10$ in US
BUT ONLINE the price is definately gonna be lot lower
3. So called Undergrod manga scanlation will not and can not be shut down... just look at torrent sites givin u music, movies and whatnot.
Maybe my comments are pretty optimistic but if MH wants my help in implementing web standards for online manga.. I am all ears for it(as a matter of fact i would have done this a lot earlier if i had a site like MH)
MH and its staff like NJT and others have done a lot for manga community and this is not the last Business plan publishersa are gonna get from a manga community.
If this site change for the worse after this incident, I'll leave and with that, one of your ad-clicker. Simple.
MH is proporsing to have scanlations and scanltion group materials marketed?
So it means that, we would have to pay for online scanlations that were previously free???
one question "WHAT THE HELL!?"
I for one has been (and still is) part of an "all fan" scanlation team, we all got together to work on a scanlation project FULLY AWARE THAT WE WILL NOT GET PAID FOR IT!!! Sure I spent many days staying up late at night redrawing, cleaning and typesetting. It was stressful, tiring and frustrating, but I didn't mind! Just the thought of other fans enjoying our work is enough consolation for me and the entire team. ALL THAT HARD WORK WAS FOR FREE so that other fans will ENJOY IT FOR FREE, that is HELPING and SHARING now you're marketing it!?
WHAT THE HELL!?
If you start with this load of crap all will come crumbling down. Now mind you, a majority of people here and on other manga sites are minors and most have no online bank accounts and not much source of income for that matter.
It's sad...
Since I only use MH as a place to see what's going on and occasionally get raws, I really don't care. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in this thread about how we don't support the mangakas by not purchasing it.
But if others are like me (and it seems many are), I end up buying the raw volume for scanning purposes (sometimes 2 volumes, if I want to keep one pristine and for myself), and, if it's licensed, I buy it in English IF I LIKE IT ENOUGH.
Plus, if we actually imported 90-100% of ALL manga published in Japan... um, I think we'd drown in tissue thin paper and bad glue.
:: shrug :: If you love manga enough to spend a large portion of your free time participating in a group or running a scanlation group, then the idea of capitalizing on it seems like a filthy lucre. As a scanlator, I would be embarrassed to take money for something I did for shits and grins along with my buddies.
Of course, I wouldn't dream of buying some stuff I've read just to check it out, and that's why I like scanlation so much. It saves me the time, effort, and gas of standing at a Barnes&Nobles or something looking like a creep while I skim through a LOT of manga. If I have to pay to skim through stuff... well, what's the point? I can just go to Barnes&Nobles or some other place and DO IT FOR FREE.
Add comfy chairs (when I can get one) and a latte... hell, maybe I should start doing that ANY WAY...!
@Finestela: you seem to be talking about different things than what we're actually talking about..... "CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN (VIZ) AND TAKE IT STRAIGHT TO THE PUBLISHERS!" ...we're not trying to find solutions here as you can see if you read the comments, the situation here is that the manga community is good as it is now... and we don't want to put that in danger. Licensing editors are our (the groups) enemy... after all.... they're trying to stop our scanlations cuz they would lose money because of them and what we & the leechers want is FREE manga. Just because you people want to pay for manga it doesn't mean that everybody does. And honestly seems the one that made that email (i'm guessing njt?) has delusions of grandure... "MangaHelpers as a website is considered by many as _the_ greatest and most notable manga community in the world." On irc most of the people laughed their ass off when reading the email :D
Simply put "The way it's going right now is good and we don't want that to change."
If you agree to this premise then the only logical conclusion is that the "business venture" MH is going for is for putting the aforementioned asset to sale, hence abusing the trust of everyone who are involved in the process of releasing our beloved manga every week.
If one would look at this from a legal perspective then it might be MH (if we presume that they do try to sell the scanlations erupted from the work of volunteers) will be the ones facing legal issues.
The scanlation groups do so much work on the raws that it could be called an art or simply their own version of whatever they're cleaning.
If MH would then release this redone version without the tacit consent of neither of it's original creators (the manga artist and then the scanlation group) whilst trying make profit by selling this to Viz... well then something has gone very wrong and MH might face dire legal reprimands.
Sorry for the long post and the possible repetations.
Very, very few of the scanlators actually want this to happen.
For them scanlating is fun and a hobby. If we start involving the publishers then it would be no different than forcing our benefactors into cheap labour.
My point is, we don't need you MH, in fact you are a parasite on the underground communities' back. Often you give publicity to groups who don't want any of it.
If you want to whore yourself to Viz then go on, but don't expect us to back your proposal.
I for one buy manga I like, but I also like to "test-drive" certain manga. Other fans do the same. You're not doing any of us any good by exposing the underground community to publishers and practically shoving it in their faces.
How long has mangahelpers been here, the admins that watched over the site in their free time and Creating/upgrading the site to MAKE IT BETTER FOR US.
They are already here for years and looking out for rule breakers and scan/raw/trans stealers or abusers. When there is even an smallest suspicion of that shit. they would dive into it and research the thing of question. Have njt, bax or any other admin not already earned the fcing respect that the would never sell The Translators, Scanlators or Raw providers hard work TO ANYONE.
They are trying to bring manga faster and legit and free for the reader out.
Even though binktopia's scans & cnet's translation of One Piece are enough and in a good timely manner out, which i have great respect for. And ofc im waiting to buy the coming release spree of OP from viz.
As conclusion for me to the pple that dun even take the time to read the Mails plans...Think before u type or in this case READ BEFORE U TYPE.
^
nah,.. please u all ppls read it
^_^
Yes this move is really bad, and there is no way we are going to agree with this, but that can't throw away all the things MH contributed to the community.
It became so much easier and much more organized to get RAWs and find new series ever since MH upgraded the site. And seems like lots of big scanlations groups doesn't care much about MH, but I'm sure MH helped nourish many small groups and create new translaters. And for quality, honestly speed is the only thing that really matters for us Leechers, and quality doesn't really matter beyond a certain point. (which most groups pass)
Absolutely NO work from anyone - Come Translator - Scanlator - or Artist will be used without their written permission. We have never, nor will we ever take anything from any fan contributing without them agreeing it is OK to be used.
That has always and will always be the way MH is run.
----
huh then what will happen if 99% of the scanlator/translators here say NO!!!.
---
so your saying we have to agree do this 'Pay per view'
just to help the community back?..
--
if so then why can't they just ask for donations?
bring up a reasons and such. i am sure many people here would be more than happy to donate.
Honestly, I can understand why MH decided to do this. Holding up this site can be quite a tidious task, and online distribution is sure a big industry. I'm just not too sure it would work out with the fans out there.
I mean logically, if you implement the pay-to-read plan, most fan will just diverge to other manga hosting websites (there's ALOT), and most likely will give up MH overall. Of course, your proposal did state you will try to convince scanlators to stop illegal scanlations, and decrease scanlations of manga, but I just felt if you put too much pressure on the scanlation teams to not scanlate themselves, they will get more...'rebellious' and most likely to leave you and just scanlate (or chose not to scanlate at all) in a more private manner. Overall, the ones most effected would be the fans depending on these scanlations on a weekly basis. I'm just not certain you have the best intention or idea in mind.
And I was wondering, if some profit will go back the the actual creators of the manga? I purchase manga myself, though usually the reason is to support the mangaka. So I usually buy the original version, as I feel this is the only way to support them (I don't trust the english licensed ones T_T), I'm not too sure how you decided to do this. Fans definitely would not feel comfortable if none of what they are paying are actually going back to the original creators.
As for the other comments saying Viz is stealing manga, no that's not happening. Technically, Viz doesn't even know yet XD
p.s you refer to scanlation on this site as 'illegal' in the proposal. Maybe it's just me, but that really bothers me, since you are putting a fine line between the scanlations and you, even though you are technically hosting those 'illegal' scanlations and this is what this site is about ^^;;
"They are trying to bring manga faster and legit and free for the reader out."
Just want to mention it's NOT free. If you read the proposal, they are suggesting pay per view or pay per chapter idea. It will be legit (maybe), but I'm not sure if it will be faster, since I can say most scanlations groups (the big ones) won't agree to this. And it will probably just ending up hindering groups when they do want to scanlate.
Anyway, just wanna test if I can post... I just posted a long comment 10 mins ago and I think it got deleted lol
Why would one credit a few individuals, when this very website is run by the community, and, more specifically, by the scanlation groups that for "years" dedicated themselves to sharing their work with MangaHelpers just for getting a little recognition. The very scanlation groups invite people to this website, making it a goldmine. A website becomes this big not because of particular merits, but because of stagnation of visitors (see: twitter case), that feed the website more and more, without the need of the administrators to actually intervene with their own production, but moderation and website improvement. Even more: moderators can be recruited for free.
As a community administrator as well, I know I can't change my websites' ideals to something that is the exact contrary of what they were before, just because of the possibility that the community will keep sticking to us. I saw websites losing over half their visitors right after an uproar caused by a pricky decision.
Even though this is not law, but just morals, a website is the user's property, as it's the user who will decide what to read. A website with a forum is mostly shaped by the community itself, and this way the community becomes proprietary of the content.
The root of the business plan is using MangaHelpers popularity in any possible mean. I don't see this threatening in any way for the manga community, because, knowing the flow that scanlation groups have, they would just start avoiding this website, leading to a drop of popularity of this website because of lack of updates, that administrators would never be able to bring.
I see it like a bad behavior towards the people that relies on this community itself, by appropriation of the product (this is not scans, but popularity and credit of the website) created in years by someone who isn't the administration group.
In other words, you're willing to steal all the fame scanlators brought to you, and turn it into a commercial proposal backed by illegal means (that is the scanlator's effort in the past to get you there).
MH will be "going after" (paraphrasing here) the people who very well made this site into what it is... and that personally affects me and my group (and many other groups which I have taken quite a liking to).
There really isn't much to discuss, if MH does that, you can bet they'll have quite a ruckus in their hands. I can't say I didn't see this coming... once a site becomes large like MH, it starts looking for ways to become profitable. Once you try to capitalize a hobby, it no longer becomes a hobby. I know I (as fxu, not binktopia nor mangashare) will not be part of the new generation MH hopes to become.
You know the saying, "Hit 'em where it hurts, their pockets." If you really don't like this idea AND if it goes through, simply cease and desist your future releases to this site and done deal. Whatever they decide to turn this into, it's their decision. They'll be driving their very own "target market" away because the real "consumers" want to keep this free.
On another note, it mentions something about a deal with the publisher and get faster raws... really? do we really need that? This community is spoiled as it is.
But I think you estimated the demand a bit wrong here, yes the avid manga readers will or may pay for scans, but there are a whole lot of people who just read the top 3 manga, and nothing else, they aren't avid readers, they don't want to pay.
There's also the fact even if you charge for scans, people will get their fix for free someway somehow. How can you gurantee official scans aren't leaked to some site, which offers it for free? It's the same thing that is happening with crunchyroll, it hasn't stopped other people subbing Shippuden.
Planning behind people's back I agree wasn't the best thing to do.
It's njt's proposal to sell this site to VIZ and then go away.
If you wanna go to a site that shares a lot of raws, go to www.jcafe24.net
Seems a little foolish to think that viz will help us to make things better and not make money of such a coop.
If people can still freely scanlate, share their work and other people can get it for free, I don't think I care much. But if working with viz will change that and it's just done so that the owners of mh get paid money by viz, then this site will die.
Narutofans shows that there are always people stupid enough to pay for stuff, that's also available for free. But most of us scanlators/translators/scanners will just leave for another place, if people have to start paying for manga here.
I'll wait and see if this is what it comes down to and then decide what to do.
As the only person who appears to have read this correctly (and I'm talking about the full business plan, not the unverifiable text dump of a letter), allow me to explain.
MangaHelpers, like CrunchyRoll is selling itself as a brand. They are attempting to leverage their huge community and name recognition and parlay it into becoming a legitimate business, and not remain an endless field of rice for the tens of thousands of locusts (like ourselves) to feast upon indefinitely.
If successful, MangaHelpers could become THE avenue for online manga distribution, and given the staff and philosophy one that would avoid restrictive DRM and access rights. They would ALSO become a link between the HUNDREDS of fan contrubitors generating content to the legal license holders, and possibly even the original publishers themselves.
That is a FANTASTIC opportunity for ALL of you and you are idiots to not support it.
"The goal of MangaHelpers is to provide you with accurate translations for the Manga that you love. In return, ALL that we ask for is that you show appreciation to those who help you get your "fix". Also, don't forget to help others in return - if you can!" - njt
___
yeah...right...
arent you jumpin the guns just more than a littlebit? From what they say they want to make scans, trans, and official releases a legitimate thing. I suppose we can presume they have an idea since it was not made public in the early draft, no?
Meh.... internet people :(
In nowhere says that MH are going to sell our work... BUT, is kind of clear that Viz won´t let that MH host free illegal manga here (most probably not only their licensed manga)... so as a previous comment said, NJT are going to lose the control over the community...
Anyway... VIZ doesn´t care what happens with the fans... they only wanna make profit.. so, it WON´T be free official versions... don´t be naive
I really doubt this will be good for MH and for it´s users... and the international scanlation groups are out of the deal.. but when VIZ came here... it will start to chase the scanlation groups and asking us to stop... probably not only the english one... it´s a shame that MH are becoming into this...
PS: I talk in behalf of my spanish scanlatior group.... We will not going to release anything more here, until this VIZ thing get clear.
1. viz doesn't give a crap about scanlators or fan subbers, they've never bothered with them and probably never will so they'll most likely laugh in your face.
2. viz already has 3 online reading sites, one for ikki, one for shonen sunday, and one for lesser known series like gyo, and they're all free! no payperview crap.
3. mh will have no choice but to take down all the current scanlations and all their raws and all the non english ones too.(especially the ones viz doesn't have the rights to)
4. no scanlator(or good one at least) would want to be bossed around by viz or the mh staff to do a particular series and I don't think viz wants a bunch of speed scanners to represent them.
5. Does njt seriously believe every one at mh will agree with this and not want to leave? Is he forgetting that one of the biggest reasons why people read manga online is that they can't buy it (either they don't have a credit card or they don't live near a manga store) why the fuck would they buy shitty speed scans online then!?
6. Scanlators ALWAYS were and ALWAYS will be pirates, getting rid of them will as easy as trying to get rid of pirated music off the internet.
7. You fail to realize we are not your personal army to buy whatever shit you throw at us so you and your shitty excuse of a staff can buy some hookers and blow.
if you want to do this right:
1. you have let the community in on this beforehand
2. Get in contact with the original japanese publishers not viz you fucking idiots
3. NO PAYPERVIEW BULLSHIT, USE ADS!!! MOTHER FUCKERS MUST I REPEAT MYSELF! ADS!!! ADS!!! ADS!!!
4. Let the community know that the money your making will be going to the manga-ka
TL;DR: LURK MOAR FAGGOTS!!!
p.s. bax was probably ban cause he/she was the one who leaked this.
Cursing and insulting everyone doesn't help get your point across. In fact, it just makes you seem immature. Grow up.
And NO, Bax was banned because he has IRL things to deal with, and the ban was simply to make the stubborn mule go deal with them. If I'm not mistaken, he can unban himself whenever he wants.
Thank you.
1) First of all, I want EVERYONE to get past this notion that MH is trying to enter an exclusive partnership with Viz.
MANGAHELPERS IS NOT TRYING TO ENTER INTO AN EXCLUSIVE PARTNERSHIP WITH VIZ!
Viz is one company in one country, and MH is not going to restrict this venture to them. I would imagine they are also approaching Del Rey, TokyoPop, and original Japanese publishers. ALREADY, we have an opportunity for international members - working in collaboration with MH to generate agreements within their own countries to license content for distribution in their native languages.
2) You bring up the question of compensation, rightfully so. The long and short of it is, this IS a business. You would have to enter into a contract with a license holder to work on a project.
Maybe you get a contract with Del Rey to take over editing their American publication of Negima. Maybe you contract with Mathieu's Manga to translate Naruto into French. How much you end up being compensated depends entirely on YOUR negotiations with the company. To what extent MangaHelpers is involved in this process is ultimately up to how closely YOU choose to work with them, but being a member of the community and having opportunities to communicate with staff automatically gives you that valuable first link.
As for MH itself, of course it and its staff would make money. You don't think they make money off ads now? You don't think OneManga rakes in thousands from all those flash games? That's the idea behind going into business for yourself, you make money doing what you love. The difference here is the ORIGINAL AUTHOR will see something from it, too.
3) Yes, there will be groups that don't or can't play along, and they will end up leaving. This is no different than what happened at CrunchyRoll. The illegal content HAS to go away or the model breaks.
4) No effort was made to start a discussion because the idea wasn't complete yet, as Taylor has said. Given the shitstorm I've seen so far, I can't fathom the reaction would have been much different. Everyone is too concerned about having to finally buy the cow after a decade of free milk to take the time to understand why this needs to happen. Downloading a scan or reading it on OneManga doesn't support the original author - licensing does, whether you like the companies or not.
Anyway, what about the raws?
Why not read the Business Plan draft before spewing bile? Oh right, it's too long and will force your brains to actually think, but that might hurt your head, so it's more convenient and a real time-saver to just jump on the njt/MH hate bandwagon.
Where do you see things going after 2~3 years? As it's going now, things are BOUND to change, don't expect everything to just stay the same. This "gray area" you are so comfortably swimming around atm WILL sooner or later fade away
Do you really think the grand plan was to crashland MH and let VIZ delete-fucking-everything? Think again, it was a plan to create a bridge between this community and Viz, where everyone could have benefited. I doubt there is anyone out there who cares more about Scanlation community and its future than njt.
I have a clue why this was kept in secret - majority of people by nature are afraid from changes, and as we all know fear makes one act repulsive and stupid. Here you go.
Thank You.
Feel free to continue your "NO U", "Sellouts!", "Backstabers" and other brainless comments, not like you all have anything better to do anyway.
no i hate the pay-per-view thing, and there is no way i'm going to be using that. too many mangas to pay, and i would rather get hard copies.
i'm just mad at people who seem be ignoring all the organization and proficiency MH has brought to our the manga community.
I hate this proposal every single line of it, but still, I love MH >.<
@#131
cause i AM a Leecher :D
and come on people, we can't expect MH to host scanlations, RAWs, translations and stuff for absolutely no cost! thats just absurd. in some way or another, they have to find ways to make money, since the servers and stuff cost a lot.
jCafe24 is good, and i use it a lot, but its not as organized as MH, and there are times when the site goes down. no one wants that to happen.
and by the way, u can block ads very easily using firefox.....
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/59948885.jpg/
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/98465773.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/14164387.jpg/
So it was really a rough draft, was it? Liar...
Check the names if you think this is a fake...
Mais la voie commerciale qu'ils envisagent de prendre, qui les ferait rentrer dans la légalité (quoi que...), est totalement mercantile et dénature la notion de Scantrad fait par des fans, pour des fans. Ces mêmes fans qui iront voir ailleurs...
"3) Yes, there will be groups that don't or can't play along, and they will end up leaving. This is no different than what happened at CrunchyRoll. The illegal content HAS to go away or the model breaks."
FU! You're talking about groups that provided free scanlations for fans for years now, dedicated their free time to do this.... and now you say if they don't play ball then "weed them out"?! So i'll tell you again... FU!
The basic solutions suggested were: 1) abandon MH and toilet paper it on the way out; 2) support it and watch the companies pee on them themselves; 3) argue about how they stabbed everyone in the back, and how dare they, and OMFG it's awful!!
Those don't really sound like solutions, but more like an opportunity to kevetch over something we (the community) have little to no control over. Whether or not they submit it to the Big Dogs, we can't do much about it except complain or bail. There have been a lot of arguments that there are OTHER sites, so... it's not the end of the world. Sites live and die all the time.
Besides, if the Big Dogs really didn't mind scanlation (that it was only a matter of us paying a little bit to read things), they wouldn't put out Cease and Desist letters to groups. The fact that even companies from Japan put those out (*cough*Kodansha*cough*) means that there really is no "legitimate" way for scanlators to work EXCEPT (maybe) to get permission from the authors. I know at least one group has gotten permission, so it's possible.
So, I rather think this is all in all a moot point in an overall illegal position from both the US and Japan, and man... being that angry about it just can't be good for your health...
Although watching this should be interesting over all... (which is why I came back to look X3 )
Earning money from it is the worst thing one can do.
All i can hope is that scanlators will leave the site - if they stick to their plans.
Absolutly disgusting - and also without any consultation.
Bleh
U haters should just shut up.
I don't want MH to turn into the VIZ supported Narutofan. I think most people who use MH does it cuz it's a huge community and everyone contribute with something making this whole thing huge.
Now think about this:
Rawsuploaders start thinking: "I upload my stuff and get nothing...I started for fun and wanted others to read these mangas...but now it's all about money."
So they stop uploading the manga....but VIZ can take over that....so can the other companies when(if) this deal gets done. Just gonna cost them hiring a few people since in MH people did it for free.
Now we got the translators: Anyone know how shitty salary a translator gets in tokyopop? Guess...and then google >.>
Translators on MH (like said in the mail and draft) do it for free! Involve money: Translators wants money! But hey VIZ can just take over that too....I mean there's not that many translators on MH *rolls eyes* and then we will get our shitty tl from tokyopop once more....this time just the speedscanlators version with errors (no offense...well maybe a little...I read speedscans too these days and cry at the mistakes I find)
Proofreaders: lots of english speaking ppl in usa so no need for any of those. NOT
Editors (cuz I don't think they got cleaners and typesetters in firms): ...wait, did someone said crappy Tokyopop editing? Nah, since it's scanlators, it will probably be done better in a better quality...I mean deadlines won't affect us, pressure or money neither...wait those editors at Tokyop where do they come from again?Qualitycheckers: God forbid! Everyone company need those....even groups need those (know lots of groups who can't release cuz no one wants to QC, lol) Hopefully someone will find them.
Plus no shitty battle royale and ikki...battle vixen adaptations...slang in my manga, can't read. Same with honourfics...I like my -san -sama -dono -chan in my manga.
Oh wait I just remembered, many of us do this in our free time, does this mean that Viz and the other companies will agree to that? I mean if they forbid us for releasing our manga release for free and don't want to hire us cuz we are too slow, then what? where will MH stand in this if we get screwed ? and how free is free? and how long is free as in 1 chapter? 2 chapters, etcetc?
Trust me when I say this: If you don't know what you are doing then you get screwed really hard in the anus!
In the end I see it as a better option for those companies to sue the shit out of MH.....after all it's all illegal what we are doing. Plus if they will stop us and then won't have to use money to pay us and keep it all to themself.
Making a bridge for making the illegal legal is like making piratebay legal...oh wait they tried that :P
@Nitouryu; I read the plan and I love how "accurate" the translations are here...bet Viz will love that too. Now...yeah I know people don't read the draft, the plan the messages written here (hey I jumped over most of the comments myself ;) )
"Where do you see things going after 2~3 years?" <--- The same place where it's always is^^ I hate trying to find my keys if they aren't where I placed them.
@Finestela: I just got some questions for you.
You find it good that you can your manga on databits cuz it's legal and you can support the author since "And it's a bad thing to show appreiciation to the authors by paying a small amount of fee?" but....don't you have a bad conscience for doing scanlations for this many years without supportin each and every author who's work you've worked with?
This one makes me laugh:
"This thing is merely a plan to use MH as a distribution center for commercial digital copies of various series" usually means "We will release your stuff to others on the net and we wil get money for it, and that means that your titles which are yours will cost money for others to read."
.....or did I miss something? I'm quite sure thats what we mean when we talk business where I come from. Elaborate, I'm quite stupid and don't know a lot about how it works in usa >.> Oh, and remember to tell me what distribution means too....english is hard. (for people who didn't get it it's sarcasm :P )
@himemo:
"However, reading through that business plan, I was quite amused at the "stop the proliferation of illegal scanlations! Illegal scanlations are evil!" rhetoric by a website whose community is *entirely built on the proliferation of illegal scanlations.* Without illegal scanlations, there is no MangaHelpers. There is no market value. There is no business plan." <----- I totally agree XD
To the people who said: "Just leave MH if you don't like it" Someone from tokyopop said the same when they had a forum and did censor/edit their shit....guess what? People left, people stopped buying their stuff and see how it's going^^ Lots of titles getting scrapped cuz people aren't buying.
If you notice something on these comments then it's that most ppl don't want MH to start taking money for serving manga, they want their manga drug free.....even if they didn't read the mail or the plan. Yes, there are a few saying that there no such thing but the message is clear from people. Most of those will leave and find some other place to get their fix, like it's always been. If not here then another place we go. Though nearly everyone don't want to do that since MH is kind of like a home to them...and you only leave your home if you get forced to do it. (For me it's like that....probably also the people in here screaming.)
I am the kind of person who likes to read manga even buying mangas. I refuse to buy every manga I read, mostly cuz I buy manga that I really like like it should be. No, it's not 1-2 vols. Atm I'm following on 40 titles and sometimes I still end up starting on a new since I liked the manga from the scanlation I read (latest one being TP's Kimikiss <3<3<3).
Now lets say the deal gets done and I have to pay to read my scan cuz Viz...bought the license to the manga. I as many others on the net would not pay to read it, mostly cuz it's waste of money. I will end up not buying the title since I don't know how it is, even if it's really good. One chapter has never been enough to tell if the manga is great or not. So in my case it would probably be a big loss for manga firms to get me to pay for getting a taste of how the manga is.
Plus I like my nice book format manga (*evades the storm of stones*), it's always great to sit in your bed on a rainy day and read a book instead of looking at a screen....sorry for having a romantic personlity (*evades the storm of macs*).
At the end I just want to point one thing out. The only reason I started to release our stuff on MH was so more people can get it for free, people who can't buy the manga cuz it's sold out, not available in their country (yes, the world is bigger than just usa), can't afford it cuz they are nearly broke with the 50 other titles they bought, don't want to pay 1.5xprice since amazon isn't that cheap.
If I wanted to place it some place where people can get money for the work my group did then I could just go to Narutofan.
If MH does carry out this deal then I will take our stuff away from MH and if we still see if somewhere we don't want to see then I will probably stop the group and just read my raws myself. I'm quite sure many, no lots of ppl in crates XD are seeing it this way. If they are not then they can deal with it on their own.^^ Good thing I picked up japanese seriously, though it was for novels and games, I guess it can be used on manga too. :P
...go play there's no more >.> oh Heil H <.< I will probably not respond before weekend and only if I got time to check it, lol. People want their manga :P
1. Don't know the whole story so I won't up and go.
2. The fact that there are rumors around that admins have left over this causes prime suspicion into the real idea that's going on here.
They don't even have a product to sell. We do over 90% of the work. This is just a website. It could easily be replaced by another one.
It's like having a place and organizing a market. I can't run to walmart and offer them the product & people on the market. And it's not my place to run to walmart and try to work out a deal for the people.
First I ask them what they think.
And this is exactly what MH should've done. Ask us first. Because it's more about us than it is about them. Even the biggest selling points of their plan. NJt came up with the international scnalations idea, but we do them. And the site is so huge because the people come here to get our work.
Without us, you don't even have anything to offer viz & co.
The least you could've done is ask us first.
@Massuti: Nah, they had to leak it out now if they didn't and told us the last day before they made those changes, a lot more people would rage then just the ones atm.^^
Oh, remembered another question: What about titles which the companies won't release cuz no one is buying but still won't let anyone scanlate them?
As I see it "Absolutely NO work from anyone - come Translator - Scanlator - or Artist will be used without their written permission. We have never, nor will we ever take anything from any fan contributing without them agreeing it is OK to be used."
means if it's not our way then it's the highway^^ After all they won't use our stuff without permission which means that they will take it off and you can see beybey to this place.
Oh and now to some ppl who also read it and laughed..and raged:
http://www.mangaupdates.com/news.html?id=519
enjoy, lol, I did.
Without us, you don't even have anything to offer viz & co.
The least you could've done is ask us first."
^ I'd like to stress out this part.
Obviously I have an opinion but it's irrelevant, I'm not gonna accuse or declare innocent anyone, since there aren't enough proofs to say anything.
But, no matter what intentions, good or bad, the staff had. No matter which kind of completion stage the business plan was at. Scanlators/raw providers/translators/editors/artists MAKE UP this whole site, without them there would be no site.
Before even starting to discuss this business plan, as soon as they had the idea, the staff should've asked the comunity for its approval. They're nothing without the community. And whichever intensions they had, this will always smell awfully bad, because they did everything behind the community's back.
Read the business plan. It's basically saying "hey viz, scanlating/online-manga-viewing is a huge unexplored area. You can earn money here and we'll help you". MH is saying that they'll help stop illegal scanlations and raw distibution. Meaning, there will still be scanlations, done by whoever for viz (& others). Some of us might get paid for their work, yeah. But don't forget that you'll have to do things how viz wants you to do them, since they pay you. If the want a translator to use "wazzup" instead of "what's up", that's how it's gonna go.
Everyone who isn't scanlating for viz will be forced to stop by viz (& others) with the help of MH. I also wouldn't put it past MH to rat out other sites where you can get stuff for free.
And the best thing. The scanlations will cost money.
Face it, if the business plan is real, then MH is trying to destroy the community which made it this big, for money.
I'm not a scanlator, nor a translator...
I'm just a simple distributer of a manga-viewing site.
I very much depend on mangahelpers on many things.
Seeing as to how members are reacting to NJT's proposal, I've come to say (with experience as an admin of certain sites) that they will not go for the plan.
Groups like Japflap, Binktopia, Imagescans, Ju-Ni, Maximum7, etc.; will be the ones to persuade MangaHelpers to go for this change or not. If Mangahelpers blindly goes for this change without a solid backup, then I'm afraid that one of most dependable sites that Mangahut.com idolizes will be broken from many sides.
Another thing, if mangahelpers use the same methods as "WOWIO.com", will things be ok? or will it be just as worse?
--------
To me, I think Mangahelpers will benefit from this change if, and only if, they create some way to let people get manga if they are:
1) Logged in to view the database
2) Can read the chapter (but must buy to download it in High Quality)
3) Keep a chapter free after a certain amount of time has passed.
4) Have a certain amount of post?
5) Cheap-Monthly Payments for the whole releases (ex: $2.99 for a whole month)
--------
Like someone said, there are many other sites people can go to get what they need done. So if this is true, why not scanlation groups use this opportunity to gain some sort of profit from this site and also provide free download access on another site? That way groups would always have a win-win situation.
I know that scanlation groups only would like to provide free manga. But why not take the chance to profit from what you do & still release you stuff on your site or through some other site?
In conclusion, I would be OK with this change if it had some limitations but MangaHelpers should not join VIZ company because of many negative & obvious reasons that can destroy this perfect manga-community cycle.
AND TO ALL OF YOU LEACHERS WHO ARE NOOBS WITH A COUPLE POSTS, TO THE ONES WHO DONT EVEN CONTRIBUTE RAWS TRANS OR EVEN SCANS, YOU SHOULDNT REALLY BE TALKING BECAUSE YOU DONT EVEN DO ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE EXCEPT USE UP BANDWITH.
njt is a good person, he wouldn't sell us out, or use us for money. and shout out to finestela, thats the only person saying anything worth listening to.
they have just lost another good community member/provider in SlayerJr.
maybe this will be some sort indication to the admins and community...
All? Or just North Americans? Viz doesn't even allow access to Rinne to users with IP geolocations outside of NA. This site is a hub for scanslators all over the world, and a large chunk of the translations uploaded here aren't even in English.
Regardless of whether or not works here are used for profit with or without consent, it's highly unlikely for any deal to go through without Viz making demands and MH making concessions of its own. And you really have to ask whether these agreements will benefit the community or not. It would be unreasonable to assume Viz wouldn't make changes, it's a registered company... a legal target. It has assets, a paper trail, and responsibilities to its employees and shareholders. It can't just dissolve like MH in case its sued.
GameFAQs works because its user-created content is completely legal. Manga scanslation is illegal wherever creative monopolies exist, and those monopolies exist nearly everywhere thanks to IPR lobbying.
1) What are you trying to accomplish from this?
2) Are you trying to earn profit?
3) Which companies have you referred partnership to so far?
4) Which companies are you planning/hoping on joining up with?
5) Why didn't you propose this with some major details that will lure scanlation groups towards your plan?
You just made things look bad by announcing similarities with CrunchyRoll. You should have said WOWIO.com
I mean seriously, did it not occur to you that mangahelpers is used by members from ages 12-35 as a majority? Those that can afford or attempt to buy what companies might sell are maybe less than 20-30% of members that attend this site.
I'm 17 & also have a credit card, but I would not want to use it on every chapter that I want to download.
How will things be managed if this plan with merging with companies takes to effect?
Please, provide us with "payment circumstantial" information.
"Again LET me reinstate.
Absolutely NO work from anyone - come Translator - Scanlator - or Artist will be used without their written permission. We have never, nor will we ever take anything from any fan contributing without them agreeing it is OK to be used.
That has always and will always be the way MH is run."
U Haters cant read?
Since when have they not done the best things for manga and its community(Translators - Raw Providers - scanlators and the b leechers)?
U guys should be ashamed of yourself, is it so hard to have some trust and respect for the ones that created and are improving mangahelpers for US.
well we comment cause we care.
if we are the people you say we are..we wouldn't have posted in the first place.
just breeze through all this and said..
so?..
and just leeched off without giving a sh%$.
but we didn't and as from many post from people you read earlier..if possible we want to MH to stop and drop this or to Present it to the public in a manner where everything can be understood and involvement of the community..not just themselves..MH is made from its members ranging from scanlators/translator/raw providers etc..
This site has absolutely no position to negotiate with Viz or any other publisher, in Japan, North America or anywhere in the world.
None of you own any of the works you are posting here...RAW or scanlated, it doesn't matter. It doesn't belong to you. In what fantasy world do you live in?
And look at the ads on this site. The owners already are making money off your free work...so don't start complaining now.
The legitimate manga community has been laughing the last couple days. Manga Helpers doesn't help manga (besides the fake fans that don't believe in paying for thier entertainment). These sites hurt the manga world. Some of you call Viz "greedy" and money grubbing. Are you people blind to the realities of the economics state of the entertainment industry? Sure Viz is "greedy"...as they don't want to go out of business.
I think it is so funny you could complain about not getting paid as scanlators when YOU are not paying the creators and artists that you steal from in the first place.
Irony is a bitch, isn't it?
I can't deny that it seems a bit of "save face" work going on here, but at the end of the day who cares. So long as mangahelpers continues to provide what it usually does, I'm happy.
If they want to make some money, more power to them so long as they are able to stick to the moral high road. God, who knew making money was such an evil topic? So many paranoid people here too, you'd think this was run by narutofan.com or something. Not sticking up for MH, just bashing all these idiots who don't like changes in a free service they have been provided.
KEY WORDS PEOPLE: FREE SERVICE. It's what you've been using whilst here, this wasn't developed overnight. If they provide a service, they have a right to do with it what they would like, but of course they don't have the sole right to work uploaded here.
And no, I haven't thoroughly read the draft business plan. See some people point to the date and work gone into it and go "Well it's beyond draft clearly!", but these are the same people who think that their phone conversations are being tapped by the government.
Grow up paranoids. If I had a userbase of this many people I'd be looking to make some money somewhere too, it's commonsense capitalism.
Moral high road? Is that like honor among thieves?
The "moral high road" would be to shut down the site and stop posting copyrighted materials illegally.
Meriken :This is getting exciting!!! :D
Lol, amen to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works
The Berne Convention was a pact signed by almost every country in the world, including the US, Japan, almost every country in Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. that said copyrights cover international borders. What that means is just because a title isn't licensed in a foreign country doesn't mean that is a copyright-free, and therefore a free material. Scanlators like to ignore the Berne Convention and say they are in a "grey zone", but there is nothing grey about it. it.
What this site and sites like it are doing is blatantly illegal. Look how fast they pulled Kodansha titles when the C&D order came. Why? There is no legal leg to stand on. No legal leg means no negotiating power. No negotiating power means throwing a flare up in the middle of the night saying "Look at us! We are right here!" is just asking for more C&Ds and eventual closure...if not lawsuits.
Also, you should take a look at what happened to Crunchyroll's community when they took that deal. It exploded into a bunch of retards. It went from tight-knit, to stupidity. Just look at their forums or click on someones profile page. It's ridiculous how much they actually try to persuade the buyer.
But in the end, what does it matter? If one day it turns out that I can't upload a scanlation to this site without a long story of dealing with official licensors, then I'll just upload it to another site. Or if I can't read a chapter without paying for it, then I will get it from another site. MH is just one site out of many other sites, so in the grand scale of things, it doesn't really matter whether I like the things it does or not. It doesn't really matter to all the people who posted above me either, so why the fuss?
i readthe the "bussnis plan" they were talking about...and there was just one thing that made me "angry"..."they are going to use their might to ask the scanlatinggroup to stop scanlating the stuff avaible for money"...dont think that would work...
in my case i was using narutofan.com for my regular anime/manga dosis...when tazmo started to sell stuff i stopped visiting narutofan.com and found this site...
now what does MH think will happen to them when they start "selling"...
an other community will open up, but there are always some ppl willing to pay over i-net...i dont wana pay for a chapter and then again for the manga...
i rather use MH to get in touch with new manga before buying them...i mean theres a huge diffrence between reading ur manga on ur PC or having the actual thing in ur hand and enjoying it :)
w/e...gl MH with your bussinis plan you may really make some money...and who am i to blame you for such an essecial drive we all have...money
gratz cele
If it was legal i would translate/scan mangas even for free, but because it is the way it is, I do not join any groups, I believe there are others who think that way too.
As far as I'm concerned it has been years since MH was of any benefit to the scanlation community anyway. In fact I would go so far as to say that it has actively contributed to the poor state of scanlations at the moment. Sadly it's gotten to the point that unless you're group is big you have to use it. If this is what it takes for the site to break then I'm grateful to the leak.
I personally don't think this will work, since this is an international community and not all of the works have been liscensed by non-Japanese companies. As someone stated, Viz may just be the first step and that other companies will be contacted, I highly doubt the possibilty of this, since that would mean Viz loses control of the situation. Not to say it is impossible, but there are so many holes in this plan that unless they are worked out, Viz would probably not be willing to accept this. Although some claim this is just a proposal, any company in its right mind would not accept a document so ambiguous. In the business world, proposals need to be specific and without obvious faults/loopholes. Right now, MH is just bringing attention to itself and the illegal distribution that is occurring here right now, so it may be risky.
Wait for the programmer to wake up :3
We're working on a faq for those of you wondering (sorry for the delay)
Also 200ゲット＾＾
Your condemnation to all scanlators and readers who get manga for free is amusing but you do raise good points. So lets address your concerns. Manga is primarily targeted for Japanese audience, hence the reason its published in Japanese. They companies saw potential for extra money coming in and they sold rights to specific regions and countries, but the companies weren't able to meet the fans demands so scan groups popped up. You think the author doesn't get compensation when he/she should which makes it bad, and I agree to some extent. But the disdain you hold for those who read manga for free isn't entirely justified. What about libraries? People get to read books for free from libraries all the time. Who sues the library or the people who go to libraries. The manga that gets scanlated is purchased by people who scan the RAWs, after all. The groups do the scans for free and don't gain any monetary benefit for the most part. Not to mention, they put in a lot of effort to scanlate. This introduces new manga to new regions, rights get sold and the authors get benefited, hopefully. If you still insist on compensation, then some ideas of a compromise have already been discussed in the comments. Free manga for reader can still generate AD revenue which can go to the companies. The companies could offer subscription services to for additional content and/or features. Collaboration with scanlation teams to use their scans by the company as long as free versions are also available can provide a mutually acceptable compromise as well. Most of the manga audience are people who can't pay or are reluctant to do so. Also, there are still many who buy Manga volumes either in japanese or the official translated versions by the manga companies. Rather than trying to lynch them, there are other ways around the problem. College students read the Redeye not the Tribune, after all. So please be a bit less disdainful and be a bit more understanding.
Also, your disapproval of the talk about scanlators' compensation doesn't make too much sense to me either. If the scanlators collaborate with companies like Viz, according to MH's proposal, they are acting as Viz's or other company's employs. Its only fair they talk for compensation.
Amen.
true.
xD
MH is the best site of mine if it means of manga place - I will not say I'm looking forward to this <or whatever>, but I will say Marvel style: until we will have to pay for the manga to read online, make my MangaHelpers <3<3 <and yeah, I read that 'longish' business plan if someone wants to insult my misunderstanding of sth>
"With respect to posted content, the submitting user retains ownership of such content."
The above is taken directly from the MangaHelpers Terms of Use.
Do you all understand what that means? Anyone who owns a site like this knows full well no one ever reads the terms of use, and yet MangaHelpers wrote theirs to PROTECT CONTRIBUTORS.
You retain copyright on your translations. Your art is protected under fair use.
MH is LEGALLY UNABLE TO SELL YOUR WORK - if they did, they would be opening themselves up to a class-action lawsuit, one I would definitely take part in.
When MH calls the community an "untapped market," they are in effect claiming that most people will pay a fair price to support mangaka whose works they like. Yes, there will always be that 10% who will continue to download for free as long as they can - that is why we call them leeches. It is not a term to be proud of, guys. Every chapter we leech takes money out of the mangaka's pocket.
When the legal copyright owner starts providing the same service as the community, the community necessarily shrinks. For example - All of us at Dattebayo agreed that we needed to drop Naruto. Sure, I don't think the translations on the CR subs are as good, but had we not dropped Naruto we would have been directly competing with legal copyright holders, in essence saying "We're willing to let Masashi Kishimoto lose some money to protect our egos and internet reputations."
That attitude could eventually make manga extinct.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if MH used some of the money they'd make to license manga THEMSELVES. And who do you think they'd hire to do the work? You guys. So once again, I'll remind all of you that this is a fantastic opportunity and you are idiots to decry it.
The idea of MH licensing manga and letting a group of selected (awesome) scanlators/translators/artists work on it sounds like music in my ears.
If that were to be the case though, there's room for getting out potentionally great mangas (and already great mangas) out on the web legally which might not have had a chance to get licensed by the other American publishers. Which would make incredibly happy. Eventhough I'd rather have physical books in my hands to read from - this idea would make me happy nontheless as some of my favourite picks might get licensed and released digitally. :D
Just to note, I have skimmed over the text and don't intend to read all of this (yet) because I'm supposed to be studying all day right now.
That's my two cents on this whole deal. Maybe I'm wrong about it, but I just can't see the whole scanlation community wanting to work for free while the publishers just sit back and get paid.
Btw. I'm talking about download links that are associated to profit, like megaupload where you get something like 0.001 cent per download.
Some scanlators have their own sites, which require a bit of money to run, even though it's very little.
And getting that bit of money from megaupload is better than directly asking the fans to pay out of their pocket, in my opinion.
"Manga is primarily targeted for Japanese audience, hence the reason its published in Japanese. They companies saw potential for extra money coming in and they sold rights to specific regions and countries, but the companies weren't able to meet the fans demands so scan groups popped up."
People are not downloading manga here because the companies did not "meet their demands". People are downloading here because it is free. Argue all you want to the contrary, but you know it is true. Yes, there are a certain number who will buy the manga they read, but let's not be naive. The majority don't.
MH claims to have millions of readers. If 25% of them bought one manga a month the industry wouldn't be in the state it is today.
Arslan said:
"You think the author doesn't get compensation when he/she should which makes it bad, and I agree to some extent. But the disdain you hold for those who read manga for free isn't entirely justified. What about libraries? People get to read books for free from libraries all the time. Who sues the library or the people who go to libraries."
Ah yes, the classic "library argument". You forget, the moment the light from the scanner hits the ink on the paper the library argument goes out the window. A library "lends" it does not "copy" and "illegally distribute".
Arslan said:
"The manga that gets scanlated is purchased by people who scan the RAWs, after all. The groups do the scans for free and don't gain any monetary benefit for the most part. Not to mention, they put in a lot of effort to scanlate."
A purchase of a book does not give someone the right to copy and distribute it. Your argument is the same as saying "I bought a ticket to see 'District 9' and it took a lot of work to set up my video camera to make a CAM video to distribute on the Internet". Once you hit REC you were on the wrong side of the law.
Arslan said:
"This introduces new manga to new regions, rights get sold and the authors get benefited, hopefully."
Did you really type that with a straight face?
There are probably as many mangaka as rock stars in Japan. Guess who can afford to ride limos.
Arslan said:
"If you still insist on compensation, then some ideas of a compromise have already been discussed in the comments. Free manga for reader can still generate AD revenue which can go to the companies."
You make it sound like compensation for the artists and creators is negotiable.
Once the manga is free, the publishers shut down. How much AD revenue do you think MH generates? Enough to support four people maybe, but divide that among dozens of publishers and hundreds of artists and creators.
MH has no legal or economical ground to stand on in terms of negotiation.
Arslan said:
"The companies could offer subscription services to for additional content and/or features."
So that's like saying "Disc 1 of the DVD with the movie on it is free, but you could pay for Disc 2 with additional content".
Who would buy that? Nobody.
Arslan said:
"Collaboration with scanlation teams to use their scans by the company as long as free versions are also available can provide a mutually acceptable compromise as well."
1) Scanlation teams have no negotiating power with publishers. Publishers see scanlators as the enemy.
2) How is a "free version" a compromise? You are stealing and distributing. You are asking for lawsuits, not a compromise.
Arslan said:
"Most of the manga audience are people who can't pay or are reluctant to do so."
Correct. You have created a culture where Something that costs $10.00 is now free. You have created a market where "millions" will pay nothing for something. Congratulations. You are contributing to the demise of the legitimate manga industry in English. And NOW you want to go legit and make some money? Are you insane?
Want to know why scanlation groups fold so quickly? It because they put a lot of work in for no monetary compensation. It is slavery for name recognition among those that "can't pay or are reluctant to do so". In the end, worthless.
Arslan said:
"Also, there are still many who buy Manga volumes either in japanese or the official translated versions by the manga companies. Rather than trying to lynch them, there are other ways around the problem. College students read the Redeye not the Tribune, after all. So please be a bit less disdainful and be a bit more understanding."
Reading manga is a privilege, not a right. " I am poor, I cannot afford to buy manga" does not give one the right to download it for free. That is like saying "I am poor, I cannot afford to go to the movies." So if there are empty seats, should you be able to sneak in for free. The theater doesn't lose money, right?
Wrong. For your argument to work it has to apply equally to everyone. If EVERYONE read their manga on MH instead of legitimate sources the manga industry would fold in a month. You are riding on the backs of legitimate fans and readers.
Arslan said:
"Also, your disapproval of the talk about scanlators' compensation doesn't make too much sense to me either. If the scanlators collaborate with companies like Viz, according to MH's proposal, they are acting as Viz's or other company's employs. Its only fair they talk for compensation."
How many translations should Viz be expected to pay for? That's like stealing the Mona Lisa, painting a copy and trying to sell it back to the museum.
People have the right to translate whatever they want. However, unless they own the rights to distribute once they upload it to a site like this one, they are on the wrong side of the law. Just because scanlators made an effort to do something doesn't mean they should be compensated because they were never commisioned or hired to do that thing in the first place.
Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
quoted for the truth ^^
I guess the fact that we are a bunch of well organized lawbreakers would come to bite us on the ass sooner or later. Yes, the mangakas have the right to charge for their work. No, we're not helping them earn money. But when I read the business plan and saw the bits about a spoiled community and illegal scanlations to which MH 2.0 will put a stop I was quite shocked. 'They're going to turn back on the very people who created them?!' Then I thought it through and realized that with MH getting so huge and recognizable, the problems with copyright holders would emerge more often (my Vagabond is no longer here because of that ;.;). I just didn't realise that we're at this stage yet.
Anyway, let's enjoy MH in this form while it lasts, and after it's over let's remember we have written quite a chapter in the history of organized crime. We were like the yakuza, since we weren't hiding and like the mafia, since we had the support of the people. Have pride, folks! :)
Natli The Leecher
If I'm correct, the companies do all the translation for the episodes (e.g. TV Tokyo for Gintama) and let Crunchyroll distribute it. In return, the companies actually get paid for their work. While your plan is just asking translators and scanlators to simply "donate" the work they have done. And since they aren't paid to do this, you can't even expect their release to be a certain quality, or on schedule like Crunchyroll.
Secondly, groups only use this site to "announce" their releases. Most download pages have a link that leads to their site, where people actually download the chapter from. No one actually download directly from this site, you get speeds like 3-4kb/s. And you can't really tell them that they can only upload their scanlations on the site, that is basically telling them to shut down their sites. Besides, there are like 100 sites that are similar to MH on the net.
I was suggesting alternate business models that might allow the companies to generate revenue while fans get to read legit manga, essentially for little or no payments.
"when I touched on the subject of compensation I was referring to the business model suggested by MH where scanlators essentially work for licensed companies."
That's called being a translator. Publishers are always looking for good translators, and there are paid translators out there that started as scanlators.
Arslan said:
"In that scenario, they deserve payment. My example of read eye was how a prominent newspaper also provides a free version, where printed ADs generate the revenue. All I am saying is explore new avenues of revenue if possible.
I agree, publishers do need to find new ways to make more money, because of sites like Manga "Helpers". Many are looking at online possibilities and real time official releases that come out the same time as Japan. So far online subscriptions hasn't taken off (hmm...I wonder why).
Arslan said:
"And the extra content comment I made is actually applicable. Novell sells SuSe linux with support while community gets the free, a bit less polished, Open Suse for free.
I was suggesting alternate business models that might allow the companies to generate revenue while fans get to read legit manga, essentially for little or no payments."
What customer support does a manga reader need? Apples and oranges. Look at the comments here. Your fellow members put holes in this argument at every turn. "If MH goes legit or if I have to pay, I'll just go somewhere else where it is free". It is stated again and again.
higher quality manga -- available free somewhere else,
extra colored pages -- available free somewhere else
mini games -- Would you pay for "mini games"?
INTERVIEW/CHAT SESSIONS WITH THE AUTHOR -- Would you pay to online chat with an author?
"That's for the companies to figure out" -- Trust me they are trying. But it is hard when a lot of their efforts are undermined by sites like this one.
MH approached VIZ, now we see what happens.
Japanese companies and official distributors have been trying hard to limit scanalations, this maybe their chance. Get one of the major sites and pressure the others.
In Japan the manga industry is a multi-billion dollar market, and the American market is a drop in the bucket of that. American publishers have ignored scanlators mostly because litigation is expensive, and if one site is shut down, another one pops up. The only real winners are the lawyers. However, bone-headed moves like what happened this week practically force litigation, or at least more C&D letters.
"I guess the fact that we are a bunch of well organized lawbreakers would come to bite us on the ass sooner or later."
it's all bout the dum dum durum dum dum.
And don't give me that shit that "every chapter we leech, we take money out of mankagas pocket". We don't. We just don't put in any. And if there wouldn't be free scanlations, I (and many more I believe) simply wouldn't have started reading manga in the first place.
And MH saying that it won't take anyone's work without permission is not the issue here. It's that scanlations were made by fans for fans for free. That's the motto for manga and anime. And without asking community or at least letting it know, you do this "thing".
Someone should do the same what not so long ago Boxtorrents/BakaBT admins did.
"And MH saying that it won't take anyone's work without permission is not the issue here. It's that scanlations were made by fans for fans for free. That's the motto for manga and anime. And without asking community or at least letting it know, you do this "thing". "
How does MH say they don't take anyone's work without permission? The whole point of MH is taking people's work without permission.
Fans may have "made" the scanlations, but who made the manga they scanned?
As long as we are asking the "community" how about asking the creators?
Stop pretending you have something legit and defensible here.
Just like with movies. If you want to see the movie as soon as it comes out, you go watch it or buy the dvd. But if you're willing to wait, they'll air it on tv, which is much cheaper (40 channels and 24hours of television cost like 30 bucks, while one movie costs around 10 bucks).
It's different with manga where I come from. It doesn't matter if the volume came out 10 years ago, the price is always the same (for an unused version). Make it cheaper with time and people would buy. Especially if it's a downloadable file, which can be sold for less money because it doesn't cost the publisher as much as a printed version.
Paying for stuff is not why I don't like this plan of MH.
I scanlate because I enjoy doing it. MH is saying "This will be great, people. You'll get better scanlations, scanlators/translators might even get paid to work for viz and everything will be legal".
What they don't say is that only a small portion of us will be employed by viz (if any). The majority of us scanlators will be forced to stop.
Can't have people scanlate something for free if MH/viz is trying to get money for it. MH even says in the business plan that they'll help viz stop illegal scanlations.
They even use the fact that they are a huge platform of scanlating as a selling point of their little sales pitch. Although we editors/scanners/translators made this site so big, MH is now offering to help viz stop us.
Which means they are selling us out. That's how it is.
PS: Man, wherever illegal downloading takes place, people pop up that condemn it. Sure, you guys never dowload, play, watch, read or listen to illegal material. You buy everything.
Sure...
"PS: Man, wherever illegal downloading takes place, people pop up that condemn it. Sure, you guys never dowload, play, watch, read or listen to illegal material. You buy everything.
Sure..."
Oh, the "everybody's doing it" argument. Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Actually, I don't DL things illegally. I joined this site to point out the sheer hypocrisy of this "community". I know that is hard to believe, but you would be surprised that there is a rather large community of people that do purchase manga, music, games, etc. through legitimate means.
And if you think Viz is hiring any of you, you are delusional.
What have you done, njt, lol. Oh well now you can show that ppl do use MH ;)
Facts: Raws are illegal.
Facts: Scanlations are illegal.
Facts: Sharing is illegal.
Facts: Distributing is illegal.
You know why I like the net? I don't have to buy a program I need just cuz I need to use it for a min or two. Just like I don't want to buy for manga online cuz I wanna see how good a manga is. Yes, it's illegal and so is downloading music with having the rights to do so, downloading a program without the rights to do so, download an episode lets it be raw or subbed or a movie without having the right to do so. There are some companies that complain about losing money but each of you ask yourself: How much would you have bought if you had to pay for it first or if there wasn't a demo/trailer out?
I always laugh at illegal places trying to become legal: Why now? What did change? and what will you do with your past sins? Cuz it's illegal...you didn't go to the church and confess your sins, right? XD
Someone said: If you don't like it leave MH. And they are quite right....it's how ppl always do when they don't like how things run. If you don't like your raws or scanlations then njt can easily take them down for you. Making a blog and putting links from mediafire or megaupload isn't that hard. Some of use already do that. OR you can just move to another site who deliver the service, it's not like MH was the first place with this kind of service....it's only 4 years old and I'm sure as hell that you did read or did manga 4+ years ago.
MH can do this cuz it's their site, not yours, yes yes you talking, uploaded stuff etcetc but it's still their site if you look up the law...rules are to be followed. Don't like it? Make a new place, not that hard with ppl who got these skills in this age.
A myth to stab and kill: Mangaka earns shit...as in poop, they don't get that much. The ones who earns the money are like always the companies. When a title gets licensed outside japan they mangaka still doesn't get anything. The title which is owned by the company earns the money and will get all the profit. Let it be japan or outside japan....mangaka gets the pay they got when they made the deal nothing more, nothing less.
By the way, I know scanlation groups put lots of work into the illegal scans but ever wondered how much the manga puts in it? Don't bitch about it when they aren't either....if you get screwed (remember narutofan? No one has hacked him to dead yet even if people were screaming a lot) find a new way to do it. If you don't like it that either just stop releasing manga....that way we all start learning japanese and start buyind from japan even if they don't want to share their manga with us, lol. Sorry, the new president who's an II's fan actully wants to share. XD
Today before going to bed I wanna ask another question...even if ppl dun wanna answer them cuz they hit them in the head.
@Legit Reader: What are you doing here? This is still an illegal place with illegal stuff. I'm guessing from your nick that you buy all your manga legally so what are you doing here? Hopefully not reading a manga authors hard work for free, or downloading it, heck not even uploadin it?
If you are then I hope you can live with that...taking poor mangaka's works who doesn't get shit even after it's licensed outside japan since they got no right to their manga when they work for the big companies who gets all the rights after it's released.
PS: I'll be back tomorrow to read and laugh at you ppl again.....this is becoming lots of fun.
PSS: If someone opens a new MH (mangahelpers? wut....that name can't be used anymore, lol) remember to tell us about it so we can move there^^
As long as we are asking the "community" how about asking the creators?
Asking what?
"A myth to stab and kill: Mangaka earns shit...as in poop, they don't get that much. The ones who earns the money are like always the companies. When a title gets licensed outside japan they mangaka still doesn't get anything. The title which is owned by the company earns the money and will get all the profit. Let it be japan or outside japan....mangaka gets the pay they got when they made the deal nothing more, nothing less."
Maybe 10 years ago this was true, but not anymore. There are enough companies competing for good writers that contracts today have back end and bonuses for international distribution. Japanese manga-ka often come to Comic-con and other conventions outside of Japan. Trust me, they want to be translated into other languages for several reasons, but one is always the money.
"@Legit Reader: What are you doing here? This is still an illegal place with illegal stuff. I'm guessing from your nick that you buy all your manga legally so what are you doing here? Hopefully not reading a manga authors hard work for free, or downloading it, heck not even uploadin it?
If you are then I hope you can live with that...taking poor mangaka's works who doesn't get shit even after it's licensed outside japan since they got no right to their manga when they work for the big companies who gets all the rights after it's released."
You probably didn't see my post above, but I am here to point out the blatant hypocrisy. I had never heard of this site 3 days ago, but after reading about it in a legitimate manga news source I had to check it out. The comments were so hypocritical I had to join and put my two cents in.
So no, I am not downloading or uploading anything here. And I sleep just fine at night knowing I am on the right side of the fence, and creators and writers appreciate my fandom, unlike yours.
To be fair, they don't plan to do that. They're not gonna use the existing material. They plan to partner up with viz to scanlate legally from now on. Everything we did before would be deleted and they'd stop us from scanlating in the future.
Arslan, you and I both know why people like scans. You can talk about speed, quality, ease of access, but the bottom line is money.
If you charged even just $0.50 a manga here 99% of the users would find some place it was free and shove off. We both know that is true.
--------------
I'm sorry, but this suggestion is out of question for MH.
If you have 11,25$ per Volume to spare for scanlations, you may as well buy 2-3 official releases from the same amount of money.
Scanlation is not about gaining profit but about promoting manga. If people want to support someone, they should support the original creator. That is where the money belongs and nowhere else.
This stays our final stand for all releases posted on MH. Thread closed.
-----------------------
..... yeah right.
Hit and Miss.
But were i live it is extremely hard to get hold of manga
so mangahelpers was like a godsend when i came across it .But i refuse to pay extortionate rates for manga if i wanted to do that id order it off sites like amazon etc. and to be fair even if MH does start charging money for their manga another site will spring up in its place offering exactly what MH do now
(free manga for the masses) and it will be forced out of business its the way of teh interwebs
*facepalm*
"But were i live it is extremely hard to get hold of manga"
You live in the UK and have a computer and working Internet, so I think "extremely hard" is probably an exaggerated term.
Joe_boy said:
"so mangahelpers was like a godsend when i came across it .But i refuse to pay extortionate rates for manga if i wanted to do that id order it off sites like amazon etc. "
What rates are you willing to pay? Me thinks anything more than 0.0 Euros will be considered too much by you. Thank you Manga "Helpers" for driving the market price of manga to zero.
RAWR
ur contradicting urself..... 1day wait is hard to get..lmao.......sorry this just made me laugh.
If you don't see the difference between cashing in on illegal scanlations(which was proposed in eni's closed thread) and legal environment where you could read the newest manga in HQ for a symbolic amount of cash, I don't think there is any helping for you.
But still let me try to explain:
Scanlations - Illegal
Manga publishers - Legal
Comprende padre?
Let's continue:
@legit reader: Dude....you really need to talk with mangaka's before saying that it was 10 years ago, lol. Quite sure my manga isn't 10 years ago.....or the american companies are cheating us by calling it new, same with the scanlation area. *shakes fist at all* Anyway lets leave it, they earn lots of money....so why make them more rich? We should send the money to african kids....those we are making hungry by buying manga XD lulz
Hypocrazy....yes we do that. Why do you think we are anon? lol.
People know it's illegal, you can keep pointing it out over and over again we all know that. No one is saying that it's legal what we are doing, we are just saying that having some problems getting used to a place which we like and love to become a place that will help american companies hunt us down. That's the betrayel people are talking about. Of course if you only read the mail draft and not the business model plan you won't know what I'm talking about...go find it, it's all over the place XD
"Arslan, you and 99% of the people here, so let's not pretend it's about anything other than not paying for something legitimately when you can get for free illegally. "
I'd say it's about 85% ;) I do buy my manga and lots of them and I can only blame scanlation groups for that. Damn You, scanlation groups, hope you die!!! :P
@finestela_
"Gama, I don't understand where the "Yeah, right" come from. Scanlation groups does NOT support the author financially (they bought 1 copy of the magazine at most), while official publications (especially the Japanese tanks) does."
Scanlation group doesn't support the author directly financially, dunno about how every shounen group works but most shoujo group actually got a place in the credit saying: "Please support the author by buying his/her books when they are licensed in your country."
So I'd say indirectly....some even drop their project when it's released in usa...btw usa != the world.
PS: So is it only me who find it damn funny that legit reader, who actually never used this site, decided to come here and have a huge debat since 3 days ago...Yes this is also called being hypocritic. MH going from illegal to legal is the same....if you can't see that, lulz what a funny box you live in. OH us talking about the righteous of scanlating is the same, lol. :D
PSS: Anyone wanna guess how manga mangas out of the 40 vols I'm buying right now that I would buy if there weren't people scanning and showing it to me?
And how many of those great ones would even get licensed if the companies in question didn't look at communities like these and saw what it was people wanted?
Just cuz it's famous in japan doesn't mean it will be hit in the rest of the world, same with the other way around. People who read lots of manga would know how their favorite manga ended with a proper ending cuz it didn't have enough ppl reading in japan.
PSSS: Anyone care to tell me what we as people can do if the company decide to scrap the manga cuz they weren't earning enough money? Or when they do a shitty work out of it....a work MH is soon gonna make lots of shitty speedscanners (sorry but some of you do really a horrible job and you know it.)?Wut, did anyone say ADV? Raijin comics? Tokyopop? Comics One? or Infinity Studios?
Now you can tell me that it's the scanlation community's fault but as far I remember, no a lot of ADV, Raijin comic, Comics One or Infinity Studios works did can scanlated even after they died and their licensed died out.
And then there's us who bought the manga released by the company and actually believed that they would finish what they started. Yes, yes, "you can just get it as legal scanlation now!"...no cuz with scanlations it the same but it doesn't hurt you as much since you stopped and didn't lose money on it.
PSSSS: 15% of the other part that comes here has talked and will be back when it's night before bed, so carry on XD
As much as I love MH, alternatives are abundant. Once there was Tazmo and now we have MH and Tazmo. Now that's a great hate combination. Oh well, time to pack up and move.
It was easy for Crunchyroll to approach english distributors and have them sweet talk their Japanese connections because of the fact that unlike manga, the process of posting a raw episode and/or sub online doesn't start until after the new episode airs in Japan. New episodes appear on Crunchy fast enough and in a high enough quality that speed subbing groups can't even hope to 'compete', and most importantly, slow enough that the Japanese TV networks aren't adversely affected by the availability of the episode online.
You can throw the idea of posting a manga chapter at the same time it's for sale in Japan out the door, because if you post manga 3-4 days after people are used to getting their fix - somebody somewhere will scanlate it into English before you guaranteed, every week. The Chinese (and Japanese) raw providers don't care, and they will still make the raws available. Somebody with photoshop skills in North america will find said raw, and somebody with Japanese skills will translate it. All 95% of the manga/anime community cares about is how they can read/watch the manga/anime they love sooner.
Threaten the place these manga-starved fans will gather like OneManga or MangaFox with closure? Next thing you know they're based out of Sweden and there's not a damn thing a manga publishing company would be willing to do on their legal budgets. Why would OM or MF go that far? Read HBK's post, which is right on the money (bad pun).
This proposal is so flawed that I feel really bad for the MH staff that this got leaked.
But then I remember the time njt tried to convince people that MS was a conspiracy because I was actually Tazmo... and I laugh at the irony.
Excuse me, but there are people out there with very limited access to manga...
Don't laugh at them just because you think they're so easy to get.
As for me I study in Taiwan, but those bloody locals banks won't issue me a
debit card cos I'm a foreigner... or even if they do, it will be a restricted card
which cannot be used online. and I need a guarantor to get a credit card,
even if I can find a card company willing to issue credit cards to foreign
students (who has to renew their VISA every year). That means no paypal,
so I have to ask someone with a VISA or mastercard to order online.
and it so happens that none of my friends have one...
Request for scanlator groups to delete
Anyone else who thinks he will get money out of MH's ridiculous attempt is a naive loony. Be fucking realistic. 40% of MH users are from Japan, stealing raws (check Alexa rankings for details). njt and mob will probably get arrested if they show their real face to any exec officials. Raw providers in Japan were sentenced to six years in jail in the past. If you think you will get big bucks out of this deal then start saving for lawyers who will get your ass out of the mess you've created.
Good bye.
Edit: Oh yeah, you are so fast in closing down anything that will bring up more attention to this scam.
You may fool the fanboys and leechers about what's going on but they will find out sooner or later, too.
Honestly, guys, it's either you like it or you don't. There's really no point arguing or anything since I doubt that will change anything. MH will decide either they will go through with this or not. We just have to sit back and wait for the result (BTW, did anyone read the images of the emails that VIZ sent back to MH? It's someone in the 100+th comments, I'm curious if there are real or not...XD).
If MH decides to go through with it, either you stay and pay, or just move to another site. Simple. If you have to pay for something, there will always be means to obtain it illegally for free T_T
Also, to legit reader, I really enjoyed reading your comments (yes, I read all the 200+ comments, I'm THAT bored)! Honestly, this is like some big soap opera...XP
I would probably go somewhere else to read it eh,or I'll move to Japan to EXCLUSIVELY buy manga,but I have to get a better hold of the language first,heh.
Am i talking to u?
Clearly my post had "@xxx" forgot his name and cba to check.
He lives in the "UNITED KINGDOM" cmon....there is no way its hard to get if he lives in the uk.
and btw there are sites that accept bank transfer instead of paypal or creditcard.
"Amazon.com accepts American Express, Diners Club, Discover, JCB, MasterCard, Eurocard, Visa, Visa Check Cards, "PAYMENT FROM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT", Amazon.com gift cards, Amazon.com Gift Card claim codes, and the Amazon Store Card."
U are studying abroad? u got no bank account from ur own country?
I am of split mind about all this though I prefer to buy the manga i read but some are not available unless I import in a language i cannot yet read. However if it were not for scanalators I would not have become interested in the manga i now purchase.
could i afford to pay for the manga i desire, maybe not but i will wait to see what happens before i look for other sources
:facepalm
http://mangahelpers.com/news/details/258