The draft business proposal and news post caught a lot of attention. There were quite a lot of valid questions brought forward, but also a lot of rumors that got carried away. To dispel some of those and give everyone a better understanding of what we're trying to achieve here, let's see if we can't help clarify some of the common questions.
First of all, we'd just like to reiterate that any and all plans are
tentative only at this point. No deals have been made, not even official talks have happened, so please don't start panicking and deleting material. The draft business proposal iterates some of our
hopes for the future, but is in no way final.
- Are you really planning to charge people to download manga or use the online reader?
These details are still up in the air at this point, and the subscriptions plan as outlined in the draft business plan is only one possibility.
- Possibility #1 - Free online viewing supported by ads.
Both the Publisher's official version and fan scanlations will be able to be read online along with ads, which is exactly how it currently is. The only difference is the official version (with a professional translator) is now also available to be read. The ad revenue will go towards both maintaining MH's site as well as paying the publishers. This is an easy way to support the publishers as well as being able to compare the different versions.
- Possibility #2 - Subscriptions
A subscription system, as seen in the proposal, where people would pay an amount to download/read a certain number of chapters. This, of course, is not recommended due to the negative feedback from you guys.
- Possibility #3 - Free online viewing with ads and subscriptions
The site will run exactly as it is, with read online being supported with ads. However, subscriptions would be offered as well -- either as monthly, bimonthly, half-yearly or yearly memberships, or pay-to-download memberships for a certain number of chapters.
Benefits for subscribing could include:
- Uncapped bandwidth (Faster downloads)
- Access from mobile phones
- Discounts on physical copies and more.
- Is MH going the way of Tazmo and other sites, planning to sell our free scanlations without our consent?
Let's compare:
- Sites that charge a fee for illegal downloads
- Scanlations are made of any series, licensed or unlicensed, without any agreement of the original author or publisher.
- Scanlations are collected from all over the web.
- Scanlations are uploaded without seeking permissions from the groups.
- Downloads are financed via a forced paid subscription.
- The money earned by these subscriptions is going entirely into the website owner's wallet.
- However you look at it: It's an illegal process, from the scanlating itself up to the method of distribution.
- What we're trying to achieve:
- A huge selection of titles, neglected by international publishers, which are allowed to be scanlated legally in cooperation with the Japanese copyright holders.
- Scanlations are contributed voluntarily by the groups, and not taken without their permission.
- Costs and licenses are covered by an optional choice: most likely ads or pay-per-release.
- The money is going directly to the publishers and therefore indirectly to the original author, just as with any other legal manga distribution.
- Because of the joint efforts of both publishers and groups, the whole process is completely legal.
If you still have problems seeing what we're trying to achieve, please have a look at Netcomics. It's a similar concept but missing the factor that scanlations groups contribute the releases which would make use of the best release resource on the internet: the fans.
- Are the people who have released here in the past in any legal danger? Read: do I need to start removing my translations, scanlations, and raws now?
Until the moment the system changes, older releases will not be affected in any way. Those are not part of the release contract we're trying to archive. I think it's obvious that legal and illegal content can't both be present on the same website.
Similarly to Crunchyroll, the groups will be informed of the specific date of the system change as soon as we know it, and will be given enough time to backup their data before we have to remove them.
- Why are you working with Viz and not directly with the Japanese publishers?
It's not true that we're only planning to work with Viz on this -- we're also talking with some of the original publishers as well. The eventual goal is to get as many publishers on board as possible, but we need to start somewhere.
- Are all of the series but the "official" ones going to disappear from MH? What about the international releases?
As we try to get this up and running, we'll certainly start out with a small selection of titles. So a lot will have to vanish from MH in the beginning, but we hope that many can be added later on when publishers see that the concept works. Again, the end goal is to gradually work with as many publishers as possible; so publishers maintaining exclusive international rights would fall under that category as well.
- How much control will the publishers have over the site and the releases themselves?
As talks haven't yet begun, the details are all still up for negotiation.
- Are you planning to go after other illicit manga distribution sites once MH becomes legal, in an attempt to shut them down?
It's not our intent to harm the community, nor do we want to force anything on people. However, the recent interaction with Kodansha has shown that publishers are willing to request their Intellectual Property removed, which is a loss for everyone. This just serves as a testament to the fact that a preemptive move to work with the publishers is a good thing for everyone, rather than facing continued shutdown.
We never intended for this to sound like a witch hunt. While we wouldn't actively seek out sites to take them down, we would try and reason with people and try to get everyone working together, fans and publishers, and put the focus back on the appreciation of the series you love. It's our opinion that it's in everyone's best interest to take advantage of such a possibility, not to fight it.
- Are we being asked to scanlate for free while the publishers/MH pocket the profits?
To be honest, we haven't completely figured out how this is going to work, which is the reason we hadn't asked the community at large for their thoughts - we need to talk to the publishers first and see how they feel about our idea. One of our ideas behind the whole proposal is that the publishers will provide the resources for you to use (i.e., no costs for buying tanks/magazines to scan) and the groups will simply do what they already do. The benefit to the groups is that they would now legally be allowed to do so. Not only that, but as fans, they would be benefiting the original author through work that they have been doing for free all along. As of now, scanlations steal from the publisher. Through this deal, we'd instead be giving back.
Another benefit to this proposal is that the costs to produce manga would be greatly reduced, thus making the online versions much cheaper than purchasing the official book. If your work is of extremely high quality, you could even get hired by the company and start making money then, but only as per their agreement. Our ideas contain other benefits such as discounts for active contributors, but, seeing how all of this is not concrete in any way, we're evaluating all possible options and will try to make a very convincing agreement to present to the publishers. If you have any more ideas or suggestions, feel free to let us hear them.
- Finally, what about what I've contributed, do you plan on using it without my permission?
This site is different than most, as in - we do not add any of your releases. You personally add your releases because they are your work. Your work, your rights. We've shown throughout the lifetime of this site that we respect your rights, and that will never change. For those concerned about deleting their releases, you've always had the ability to do so through your group's admin panels, and that's 100% your choice. You can also contact us for account deletion if you feel it necessary.
Any account-related matters should be discussed via PM as they will be deleted if they are posted in the comments.
[mod edit] We've read all, actually *headache* @.@ ~eni
@ morten, you don't have to if you don't want to... it's not that hard to say no... instead of overreacting like that. They're not forcing you...
@ Jinoh - Yeah, I hope everyone understands that we're trying to do this for everyone's best and not to "ruin" anything.
Looking forward to seeing how this develops. Keep us posted as decisions get made and the plan solidifies.
If not, I suggest you remove the dissenters. =]
In any case, I refuse to read anything from your groups as a result of reading "anyone whom I don't have asked for...".
As for this proposal, it's a solid idea but dealing with official companies is always a pain (I'm looking at you, Konami!). I'd comment but nothing is concrete so whatever.
Edit: Oh, you do GantZ? Then I definitely refuse to read your stuff, rival! =]
frankly, it DOES seem like MH will be taking down scans and replacing them with official ones (i really don't like this at all)
but it would certainly be nice if we start to get some way to have legal stuff rather than illegal. its good to have free stuff, but honestly, we need some sort of compromise sooner or later.....
its a messy business and i don't think this is the best solution either...
i wonder if a peaceful compromise that will satisfy all mangakas, publishers, scanlators, and leechers will ever exist.
1.We want to be like crunchyroll.
2.Because we're going to be like crunchyroll,all of the "illegal" resources will disappear one day.
3.Because we're going to be legal one day,all you guys can only work on the "legal" stuff while we try to find more rights from publishers(who knows how long that's going to take).
The only reason I still use this site was because I thought it was a convenient place to store my work here.Moreover, I prefer to do obscure titles, which means I'll most likely be left out once things go "legal" then.So, its going to be harder for me but easier for the ones who work on the *cough* popular titles *cough*.Even if I can potentially earn some money in this,hoping that the publisher for my projects would legalize my projects is very unlikely in the first place because it's not popular enough.No benefit for me/other tiny obscure groups here.
If you're planning on destroying everything and starting "fresh", I might as well start packing my bags and leave before it happens.
PS.
Just a note on crunchyroll.I hate it.It has nothing I want to watch(ever) except Gintama.They have nothing but crap or things I've watched before.
Not necessarily. It depends on what is agreed upon. If the publishers don't mind working *with* the scanlators then their work would simply just be posted up like any other group - as an alternative scanlation for that particular chapter.
You're planning to do it EXACTLY like Crunchyroll! You're talking like shinji! If you continue with this, much like CR right now you will lose PLENTY of your traffic, as they scatter elsewhere. There must be some other way!
What happens to Crunchy now is that people just rip from them and scatter it in other sites that have no licensing-restriction scruples. Do you want this to happen here too?
There must be incentive for scanlators, translators, and raw suppliers to cooperate, some source of bragging rights. It should not be seen as work. There should be no stigma to working for/with the companies. There will be NO talk of country restrictions; ALL releases should be available ANYWHERE THERE IS AN INTERNET CONNECTION IN THE WORLD. Like it is now.
There must be a way to keep both the old stuff and the official stuff around.
My understanding is that your intentions are good. But please. Please think and rethink and rethink this. Learn from their mistakes, learn what they did do right, and think of another way to do this. Before more people walk out on you.
The point that I think is upsetting many people is point number 8, the possibility of people being able to earn money for the work done by us scanlators. The idea is that people will agree to this in order to gain permission? This has become such a huge port for manga raws and scanlations of course it gained attention from a publisher, however, Kodansha has not gone to every single group scanlating their unlicensed series or every single raw source and asked for files to be removed. This proposal is more of a reaction to the trouble that this site had and not to something affecting the scanlation community in general.
The series are still easily available elsewhere and people need to learn how to get those instead of relying on being spoon fed by this site.
I can see why trying to find a way to make this work so the authors can actually earn some money back from scanltions would be appealing. However, this propsal is not it! As a business plan it's not so great and for the community it's pretty damn bad I can only see that it would kill of people's enthusiasm and take away part of what scanlation is about.
I also think people can huff and puff and demand their group page be deleted or say why they think it's wrong or how wonderful it is that MH want's to go "legit" as much as they want. It's going to make no real impact nor will it be of any real benefit. The way scanlations are at the moment something had to give, yes I do think this site is a part of why things are so crappy. However, I think that the owners trying to think of ways to evolve the site or scanlations is a worthwhile thing to do. Instead of keeping it a secret and thinking of what to do amongst the MH staff or reading through 300 mostly badly put together comments a summit of some sort would probably be much more beneficial. Market Research is after all the key to any good business plan, by taking people who are willing to engage in a discussion, share their opinions, and represent key parts of each side then you would probably get a lot more beneficial ideas and feedback.
As an a example, taking one leecher who thinks it sucks, one who doesn't, one that is indifferent, a translator for one against and one indifferent, a conributer of raws, speed scanlator, hq scanlator, those from big groups those from small etc etc something on those lines. Get a range of people have as many real time and rational talks as you can with those put the feedback recieved together and then use it to refine the concept of the future of MH. Obviously, let the results be accesible to all, but, too many cooks spoil the broth spoil the broth and 300 odd comments is a clear case of that.
Well Good Luck MH!, Hope you guys make the correct decisions for everyone.
Everyone knows this... "There has been contact made with a company that knows about 'copyright' issues." And thus this occurred: "Uploaded releases are disabled for this Manga due to (current) licensing issues. MangaHelpers administration are aware of this and are following up on the issue with relevant parties."
Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but there have been hypotheses on where it's going thanks to what has happened before.
If you really want to do something right then you should propose some formulae such as the one from Apple's App store where the creator take 70% and Apple gets 30%.
I'm not pro nor against this but i can surely tell you that I do not like where this is going and I do believe that you will eventually end up like CR. People like free things, and if MH goes "corporate" (i know it sounds wrong and extravagant but I have been bombarded with these words the previous weeks due to college) the fans and scanlators will move somewhere else. ie: The Naruto case: when DB said that they will stop subbing it cause CR now has the rights everyone just waited 1-2 weeks and suddenly new groups popped up.
But I have one question and I would like for you (the people who are in charge of this Project) to answer honestly: Why have you decided to do so, and what is your goal? Why now and what made you do so?
(I did sound a bit like a drama-mama here, sorry about that :P )
Should have been the original idea to begin with. I don't know why it wasn't.
* Uncapped bandwidth (Faster downloads)
* Access from mobile phones
* Discounts on physical copies and more.
Who's going to subscribe, the benefits aren't all that when chapters can be viewed online through sites such as onemanga, mangafox and mangashare.
Making the scanlations of the series I'm currently doing legal is highly unlikely from my point of view.
Though in this unlikely case, the original publisher and the author will get to see some cash, I welcome that.
But other parties will also get money, parties whom I'm not willing to sacrifice my free time so that they get money.
And in case my scanlations won't get legalized, it'll get removed from this page.
This isn't exactly what I would look forward to.
So summing it up, most likely something will happen which isn't to my liking, but there's also a slim chance of something good happening in which case there is still a drawback.
Now this is definitely something I won't sacrifice my free time for.
("sacrificing my free time" as in "sacrificing my free time in uploading the releases onto mangahelpers and help to increase the popularity of the said page until the time has come")
And no, this isn't a shoutout to remove my group.
The group leader already sent a pm to the right people as it was requested by njt.
Still, thanks to kyuubi and uk (two members from our group) for taking the time to upload the 200+ releases in the first place.
When that becomes actual we will discuss what the benefits really will be to make it worth subscribing.
I would think the discounts would only be appealing if they were more than the amount they pay for in the subscriptions, but assuming they are Viz discounts would that be appealing to Viz, would it make business sense?
That is not true.
If we can add tech and tools to better organize, manage, interact and share for the people who use this website, and add new services that benefit everyone - such as, for example, Doujin publishing as a talent pool where official publishers can 'preview popularity' on series. These are potential ideas of how to cooperate, and the website framework already just about supports the creation of doujin series and file hosting and reading (read: clone the manga/scan tech into a combination!).
Innovations like the doujin concept, and continued polish on what already exists, are ways we are looking to make MangaHelpers faster, better and more accessible than ever before.
2) Any approved service would mean bye-bye scanlations (and I am talking like there is a chance in hell a publisher would go along with this).
3) You cannot talk to Viz AND to the Japanese publishers. Any deal you make with a Japanese publisher would be breaking any deal they have with American publishers. This means, when a Japanese publisher makes a deal with, in this case, Viz, they have "exclusive rights". Viz cannot give you their stuff, and neither can the Japanese publisher, unless they both agree.
And why would Viz split the money with MH to do something they can do better on their own?
Viz has access to the pure RAWs and files that go to the printers. Scanlators don't.
No idea, Cross, really. We weren't that far with our thoughts yet. Plus it still depends all on the publishers input on this and we haven't even heard their stand on this so far.
After we spoke to them, we can give more info and possible solutions but not at this point in time, I'm sorry. We're not fixed on one solution for any of the asked questions, they're all just ideas and possibilities because we obviously can't go empty-handed to a official meeting.
Guys, for your information:
The files were leaked around two hours after the leading staff started discussing them. Before that, there wasn't even a plan (unless you want to call the leaked draft made by one of our admins for presenting the ideas to the staff as such). So what you see online is a really really rough draft and in no option solid and fixed. It's not that we didn't want to include you guys, it's simply that we weren't even so far as to actually post a thread that contains our starting ideas for you to give input.
Look, it took us nearly two days to write this FAQ just because we ourselves didn't knew what exactly to answer and had to brainstorm on how to satisfy your questions at least a little. I can't stress enough how far on the beginning the whole idea still is.
It begs the question, however, will your operation be made completely transparent? In other words, will we have direct information into seeing where all the numbers go? Or will it remain a black box with the publishers?
Should have told us before ! Also do you think the earth is flat and that there's no use thinking otherwise ?
Did you event read the news ?
Sure you can.
Viz is not much online yet
Personally, I'd like to see it as transparent as possible. This is simply because *I* would never work as paid staff or whatever here at MH because I have a wonderful job (and far from the manga topic) in reallife. MH is my hobby and nothing more.
It is also in *my* interest to be informed on the finances of the website *I* work for because I do it for free. And I'm certainly not the only staff member who thinks this way. So be assured that the staff will put a lot of pressure on having a transparent system if it comes to a decision were member payment is required.
I read every word posted here. What news are you talking about? Has Viz and the Japanese publishers responded and said they are interesting in playing ball? They will let scanlations up alongside official releases?
Because unless that is what you are saying, I stick by what I posted. There is a better chance MH will get C&D letters than contracts from publishers.
You are right, Viz does not have a strong online presence. Why? Because money is made is selling books, not giving them away for free online. If and when they do decide to go online, why would they want to split potential profits with a third-party scanlation site?
If MH became a pay site the vast majority of users would jump ship. So, again, MH has no economical or legal leg to stand on.
This is plans, nothing is accomplished. I never said we will succeed. You said it was useless to even try. I am saying it is not a waste.
The market is evolving. As printed newspapers sells are going down, Online sells are going up.(well it's more complicated with other sites competing with news but it is besides the point).
Online reading is very convienent to a lot of people. Some will always prefer printed. But having more choices is good.
Actually Osso, it is more than useless to even try. You guys don't see how the legitimate manga community is laughing at the audacity of what you are trying to achieve. You have been supporting the undermining of the industry for years, and instead staying hush-hush in your little corner of the internet you are not only raising the white flag, but are saying "let's make a deal".
It's delusional.
Didn't you learn anything from Kodansha?
You should hope Viz and no one responds. If they do hope it is just a cease and desist letter. Hope it isn't a lawsuit. You claim to have millions of users? How much can Viz translate into damages for every Naruto download. Let's say $10 per download...
So don't pretend there is no risk at bringing a bunch of attention to your illegal operation.
So what does MH have to negotiate with?
1) Exclusive technology? No.
2) Dedicated usership? No. The majority of users here will leave if it becomes a paysite.
3) Exclusive content? No. All that content that is here is stolen from the license owners.
So tell me, if I am a publisher why am I listening to MH?
Stab the community in the back. Only an idiot, a spineless fanboi or both would even consider backing this.
Don't mind me, I'll just go on buying the manga I love (within my budget) and pirate the rest.
What I suggest is that you read the documents again, with an open mind, and then state your reasons why you think that only a spineless fanboy or an idiot would backing this.
Even if we were to assume that the majority of your members would be willing to pay for something they can find all over the internet for free,
If Viz agrees then you'll be forced to remove all the content on this site that isn't licensed by them. Which means that your fanbase will be effectively halved.
Our community has survived for all these years because of how we operate, in the shadows.
Now you're going to tear through that veil of concealment and expose not only us the fans but HUNDREDS of scanlation groups and give them links to their sites and their contact information.
A fool's choice if you ask me. There can only be ONE motive behind such an audacious idea. MONEY.
I have read that Mangahelpers business plan many times over. Word by word, read and reread. Please do not say you do not intend any of the contents you wrote even though it is a draft or unfinished. You could not write 35 pages of your business plan without ‘intention’. According to your plan, the main idea of this is that you ‘intend’ to make Mangahelpers a medium—an entity--that sell manga in digital form with your clients as publishers and ‘us’ (scanlators, translators, readers) as customers with our existence in your document referred as ‘untapped market’, ‘targeted customers’, ‘illegal competitors’. Please do not say that you think this will close the gap or ‘create a bridge’ between publishers and scanlators with this, because scanlations are not legal as you realise by every single stem of your brain cells. As well as the fact that ‘we’ will not benefit from this, unless you can say that the publishers will hire more than of 90 percent of us who ever distributed our works here to be part of their companies. This is a business. We do not become any closer to publishers than we already are in our real life where we need to buy their products as now included in your business plan version: part of your products; which you try to make it easier to sell since the price is more ‘affordable’ from your perspective. Whatever your intention ever leads to is the bigger market for publishers and ‘you’ hence: more ‘customers’. Please be more realistic and true to us. Anyone who does not understand this please mind to ‘read’ their business plan, the previous post and the post above.
No matter what option you choose or how you adapt your plan, in the end if you want to make money and create a business on your site, you still intend to use the scanlation scene as a market. The scene involves people—scanlators, readers, translators, it’s a community, that’s why they feel betrayed about it. (Although some have the rage that goes beyond reasons. Lol) If you want to do the business, be sincere and come out to say about it. Because no matter how you think the plan was unfinished and wanted to hold it back, it still had the same intention that involved your community. I say this as a person in the position of a scanlator who has been posting my release news here for a long time. Since it already comes this far, we can only wait and see what is Viz’s answer, if any agreement occurs then definitely something need to be cut off. Realistically you cannot have everything the same way it was when the deal is made.
IF you think about it why you get a C&D letter while other scanlation sites do not?
That because MH has raise a lot of heat to yourself. The only reason that only MH and 1 other sites get C&D from Kodansha is for the RAW publishing. RAW that was published when the real books hasnt even touch the streets.
No Company would try to take you to court when they know that it would be meaningless considering that even if they take you to court others would only replace you. It would only be a waste of money and time. A legal action only happen when they consider that you totally have done something that totally hurt their business or reduce their income considerably.
In legal and a company point of view, a C&D is more of a deterrent only than a real attempt to pursue you to the court. If you realize that many sites like this that host considered "IP illegal stuff" especially the large ones always get a lot of C&D before they get really sued. And most of those sites takes a lot of measure to make sure they survive by moving their host to a new ISP in another country so that they could still operate without they have to change what they already have and die because everyone who used to go to their site go away because the change that they have made.
There are many other way to stay like this, and grow while try to evade legal repercussions. From the beginning this is an illegal based community, where people go here to go and share free stuff and they could no longer do that.
In the end the only thing you should do is to have more set of rules and try to keep the heat low against you guys. You could just stay the way you are, or you could try to change the site and eventually wither and die.
PS: DOnt expect the Fan of MH would be loyal. Scanlators, translators, only do this for their hobby. Leechers only go here because its free. When they see this place no longer support them they gonna leave in no time. And when you read those post you should realize that its a representation of 99% MH visitors and members.
We are trying to work *together* with them. If it ends up with the site being killed off for trying to do the right thing, then it's a risk I'm going to take. I mean it'd end up that way eventually so might as well *try* something that'd help the fans and publishers work together instead of against each other.
Who said anything about any (one) group? My goal is to have it exactly how it is now. Except that any and all fan based scanlations BENEFIT the publisher instead of TAKING AWAY from them.
I just don't understand the mindset that stealing = ok while giving back = the wrong idea / bad.
But i still would want binks One Piece chap to archive.
kk Now srs business
I suggest u guys have a variatie of payment options and not just boring paypal.
Direct Bank transfer
And try to make a deal with PaySafeCard Its a Card thats available in many European countrys for the pple that dun like other payment options. http://www.paysafecard.com (Go to a store selling this card - buy it- if this payment option is available the only thing then needed is to type the code after clicking PaySafeCard as option and voila) For people that dont have a paypal acc, people that arent comfortable with bank transfer or dont have a creditcard.
I would most definitly use this payment option since its fast and trustworty.
<and btw there are sites that accept bank transfer instead of paypal or creditcard.
"Amazon.com accepts American Express, Diners Club, Discover, JCB, MasterCard, Eurocard, Visa, Visa Check Cards, "PAYMENT FROM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT", Amazon.com gift cards, Amazon.com Gift Card claim codes, and the Amazon Store Card."
U are studying abroad? u got no bank account from ur own country?>
Then how do you make online payments outside Netherlands?
cos I signed up for amazon just now and I couldn't change my country (US)...
this is what I found in amazon:
"We require a valid U.S.-based, ACH-enabled bank account..."
International sites: Canada, United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, France, China
and amazon does not accept international wire transfers.
"Amazon.com accepts American Express, Diners Club, Discover, JCB, MasterCard, Eurocard, Visa, Visa Check Cards, payment from your bank account, Amazon.com gift cards, Amazon.com Gift Card claim codes, and the Amazon Store Card.
We do not currently accept international wire transfers..."
"So pretty much the majority of you believe that it's better to continue to do anything in regards to the fandom/scanlations illegally. That any kind of plan to work with the publisher to give back to them after taking away for so long is just a naive idea, and that it wouldn't work. That it'd be better to just ride it out until each and every site that has anything to do with scanlations die out."
Welcome to the culture you have helped create. Of course this is what your readers think. They think manga grows on trees like apples, and are free for the picking. They don't understand that manga is a creative process that requires real work and dedication. Read the comments here, they think publishers are greedy a$$holes. Don't complain to your users because YOU made the situation once you started posting something for the price of nothing. The minute you change this system 99% of your users are going to jump off like rats off a sinking ship. And they have said so.
njt said:
"We are trying to work *together* with them. If it ends up with the site being killed off for trying to do the right thing, then it's a risk I'm going to take. I mean it'd end up that way eventually so might as well *try* something that'd help the fans and publishers work together instead of against each other. "
Fans and publishers didn't work against each other until YOU started posting licensed works for free online. Don't try and separate yourself from the situation. YOU are the problem...not the publishers and not the fans.
Publishers and fans were fine until YOU made the price point $0.00. If you want to do something right for the publishers, writers and artists, then SHUT MH DOWN TODAY. But that isn't going to happen is it? You are not about giving back. YOU are about making money.
My questions still remain. Since you are seen as the underbelly and bane of the manga community, why would any publisher or license holder work with you?
So what does MH have to negotiate with?
1) Exclusive technology? No.
2) Dedicated usership? No. The majority of users here will leave if it becomes a paysite.
3) Exclusive content? No. All that content that is here is stolen from the license owners.
So tell me, if I am a publisher why am I listening to MH?
If YOU really wanted to work with Viz and the community, then why would YOU propose a deal that YOU find acceptable?
Would it not have been better to explain your situation to the community, and ask for ideas that would have been acceptable solutions to the problem?
Your user's are irritated because of the way you handled the solution.
and 'free' (online view only) and REMOVE the 'free' scans say a few days after
the release? This way, we can all view manga for free and if we like it, we can
purchase it. If there is a free, restricted preview system it would also be
nice since nobody wants to pay for trying out a manga.
As for me however, I disagree with your idea...
"Your intentions might be good, but this can't end well."
"The amount of error in the presumptions made by some people here that is being passed off as fact is astounding."
Speak on.
@student_sol ... you are assuming MH is a license holding legitimate operation. There is nothing "official" about what happens here. Quite the opposite.
I am aware of that, I meant after they manage to get them licensed...
which seems pretty much unlikely in the first place.
Better start downloading raws :3
Scanlations existed way before MangaHelpers, and will keep existing way after it's shut down or loses its fanbase, if that ever happens. So don't say njt and MH is the problem in the first place. This is only one of many sites, just one of the most important ones.
The system was doomed from the start. Always has been. Always will be. Whether you're an elitist who has money to buy every manga in the world like legit_reader, or a leecher who has no money at all (Or has money but refuses to use it.) The system won't work for you. It's doomed. Doomed. And there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it. (And for the record, I do buy Viz's Gintama, and the raws for most of the series I translate.) Slow release times, shoddy translation, and lack of variety plauge any 'legal' recompense Viz has, and of course MH is just a hub of 'questionable' activity.
See, even if you have a smart bomb that will target sites like this one and destroy them forever, that'll just mean the seam that is manga distribution will fall apart just that much more quickly. You live in a sad delusional world if you think that MH and One manga dying out will mean a boost in manga sales. People will always try to enjoy themselves with the least risk to their person. Honestly, do you people think that everyone's just gonna start going legit cause places like this disappear?
(Insert hysterical laughter.)
Hell, I'm sure that with all the fair weather fans out there (Not talking about anyone in particular,) that you'll just see a decline in manga readership. OMG I've go to pay for it now! Will be the rallying cry of those who would rather buy the next Console than waste money on reading foreign comics.
Market online with Viz? Please. If you make it pay per view, people will just read as much as they feel like, and then drop it like it's hot. And if you make it free, as long as no one feels any real reason to buy the tanks when they're available, what makes any Viz online reader better than MH? Oh right! It's VIZ doing it now, so it's automatically better right? Right? In all honesty, isn't it the same as what we've got now for free? Just without the...yanno, slow release times and shoddy translation work? So instead we'll have a 'legal' MH. If they aren't buying it when it's here, what's the difference if Viz does it? If people are reading speed scans, its OBVIOUS quality doesn't matter. So what else can Viz offer that this place can't? Or is it just that some of you would feel better reading it from the source?
I'm jaded when it comes to manga licensing anyway. We seem to be picking up the same old moe and action stuff over and over, and quite frankly I'm not really interested in buying things that don't interest me. So of course when I can find a vault of manga that'll never see this side of the ocean in one place I'm gonna jump on it. Oh and no one should make the crappy argument that 'If it were any good it'd get licensed eventually.' Spend one hour watching Adult swim, and I think you guys will realize that our sense of 'what's good' is questionable at best.
The reason why I joined MH hasn't changed. I wanted to learn Japanese, and found translation is a fun way to do that. I came here because I wanted help and critique on my translation. It's still why I'm here. I'd be sad to see MH go for this reason, since I have made many friends here over the years, but if a similar site just focusing on Japanese culture and translation (legally) were to pop up, I'd be all over that. I don't have a problem buying my manga if it's good, which unfortunately is not the case.
So that's it, Game over. I'd like to see MH succeed, as I do like the people here. But in the end, the only way to save the system is to have an assassin named Achmed stand outside of the neighborhood Borders, and make sure that the manga you read is one that you bought. Even if this site disappears, and even if you could keep more from replacing it, we're already too far in for any of it to matter.
Six pence.
This is where I go back to saying lack of Market Research has hurt your intentions. Has nobody heard of a focus group? Keeping the brainstorming just within MH staff is not going to get you a good understanding of what the market is, where people stand and why. Which is evident from the reaction of the leak. Trying to gain insight and benefit from what are mostly (and a little oddly) emotional reactions from people is also going to prove to be futile and not effective market research or brainstorming.
I still say put together a summit of some sort so those with differing opinions whom are willing and able to rationally and eloquently put their point across. Listen to each others opinions, maybe change their own and help to evolve what it is you're trying to achieve. Then move on to having this group be like a focus group, really narrowing down issues, spitballing ideas for improvement, pointing out what they do and don't like and what they are willing to do if anything in order to gain "legality"
You could make an application form for those who would want to be considered to be part of the group. Get people to explain their role in the community and their current position on the matter. That way you can ensure you get a varied cross section that would represent all opinions and also positions in the scanlation community (from leecher to raw provider to translator to scanlators of the popular or the obscure). Then regularly update the community with the ideas gained from those sessions and leave it open for comment like this thread here.
Many popular series nowadays do not have such popularity without the work of raw hunters who bring the news.
How will the raw hunters after these proposals are implemented?
I think we all ppls should not shout out any comments which disfigure some staff that go on or agree with this plan and talk about MH sells our scanlations.
As we know as well, MH does not adding our scan. But, we by ourselves are someone who adding our scans here.
If a statement that MH sells our scans is still on ur mind, just do delete all of ur stuff here (but I'm not sure that u will not regret someday).
If u don't like MH with this plan, just keep silent or at least do not shout out ur coarse language here. And just go another sites which u like.
I still can't open MH with my pc. I don't know what happens with my inet conection (With proxy). And I do write it with my phone anyway.
T_T
I mean look at the traffic. 40% of all our traffic is from Asia? They can easily buy raws, at least, far more easily in the sense that it is produced/distributed more readily in that side of the world. How is MH helping the asian side at all, since they don't need our translations whatsoever? Thought about that?
I can't refute Bomber's comment, excellent reasoning.
A shame that legit's sharp mind can't help brainstorm solutions instead of pointing out problems and shooting down others' comments. (though i admit, a few of them deserved it)
1) Reimbursement - I would think part of our reimbursement should be free access to scans. To UL and then have to pay to even have access to our own scans (pretending we wanted to read them here) would be pretty stupid.
2) Conditions - This is the big one that worries me. The thing about being a scanlator is we're free to host our releases where we choose. Having a legal entity step in is most likely going to halt this. If they want to make money they would have to give us the condition of only hosting our releases to MH. I'm sorry, but that alone is too much for me.
@ legit
Hahah, this is what I'm talking about. You do realize that whether you buy it 'legally' or come here and get it 'illegally' that the ship is sunk right? I mean what do YOU propose? You haven't offered a single bit of constructive conversation since you came here. I'd like to introduce you to my friend Mr. Troll. His hobby is going to sites that he 'claims' to not support and posting comments just because he thinks he has a 'moral' stand point to go on.
But hey, if you want to support your companies go ahead. You realize though that it's not like Japan cares much. They get paid their flat fee, and then it's our business. So you can flaunt that you 'support the artists' all you want...but technically you don't. AT ALL. The Japanese companies are pissed at people who upload raws in their country. Two different problems. In any case it's only a little bit of time until the belly of the beast collapses, and we all have to go to Japan to read anything. 'shrug'.
* how is this gonna effect the manga that will probably never get licensed? Am i gonna have to stop posting it here?
* how if i do a legit thing will it work out i mean most Scanlators are not known to keep the best schedules for releases?
* Also would we not be able to have a download link if we go legit i think that would be pretty bad for overall quality of the manga ?
"@ legit
Hahah, this is what I'm talking about. You do realize that whether you buy it 'legally' or come here and get it 'illegally' that the ship is sunk right? I mean what do YOU propose? You haven't offered a single bit of constructive conversation since you came here. I'd like to introduce you to my friend Mr. Troll. His hobby is going to sites that he 'claims' to not support and posting comments just because he thinks he has a 'moral' stand point to go on. "
And I would like to introduce you to my friend REALITY. None of your friends here have met him.
"@ legit
But hey, if you want to support your companies go ahead. You realize though that it's not like Japan cares much. They get paid their flat fee, and then it's our business. So you can flaunt that you 'support the artists' all you want...but technically you don't. AT ALL. The Japanese companies are pissed at people who upload raws in their country. Two different problems. In any case it's only a little bit of time until the belly of the beast collapses, and we all have to go to Japan to read anything. 'shrug'."
This statement is so retarded it is delusional. Where do you want me to start?
50% - legitimazing fan scantilations and everyone involve. very very good thing. if this works and the community actually stays.
50% - how will you come out with a way to compensate the groups? it is just impossible. base on quality? who determines? base on number of unique clicks? too easy to abuse. # of members who sub to the group? HOW? trying to earn money from anything that is freely available will not work. isn't there loads of sites now currently offering online viewing? some groups are doing it themselves too. how will MH compete with them? professional translations? tell you the truth, I prefer the uncensored versions of the fan groups.
most(can't say everyone) people love this site because it is free, got a huge community, and pretty much the best place for any english manga fan who needs to get his/her fix. if this comes to fruition, most will leave.
this change will kill, I repeat, will kill the community. I do not want that! I love this site. I was afraid some changes were coming with all the site changes, guess my nightmare is coming true.
this is just a conjecture, but if it goes through, R.I.P MH, was good while it lasted.
They care for the fans, but not for a fan who share their stuff to another people.
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
The countdown is running, fortunately as many have said, there's a lot of other great sites to upload scanlations and raws, it's not like the end of the world, we will only scatter in the many other sites (or even will create new ones) and in the end that will be good.
Losing 752.6 GB of files is no joke people. If the site becomes legal all vanish, nothing guarantees the existence of so many raws and scans.
Because the scene is changing. Have you noticed how all the Kodansha series disappeared? Next thing would've been Shueisha taking the same steps. Do we really want to go down like that? Or isn't it better to try and contact the publishers and get *some* kind of deal that benefits this community more than simply just taking down all the series, which would've happened, eventually.
@legt reader, seems like you swallowed your tongue, confronted with bomber's points. Hahaha, pretty empty "arguments", I gotta say.
Not everything in this issue is working according to *the plan*. Since that whole plan hasn't even been decided among the damn staff. Like eni already said, this whole thing leaked just a couple hours after it was presented to the top staff! Meaning globals and admins. Some jumped ship immediately, and this thing got leaked before any brainstorming was even possible. A lot of this ruckus wouldn't have happened, agreements could've been found and eventually this whole issue would have been discussed with all of us, raw providers, translators and scanlators. (Leechers, all of you who post here, who gave you a voice all of a sudden? Go back to your corner and wait for the next fix.) I find it so annoying that people pick out single aspects of the plan, make ridiculous assumptions of the worst outcomes and just post them as the truth. It's not. This whole thing wasn't posted and discussed with you yet, because the stance of the official side, which is viz, shueisha and co. is UNCLEAR yet. Brainstorming is good and everything, but what for if they can't be convinced to begin with? And it's not like, njt would meet up with some of their bosses, things would be decided and taken in action immediately. This whole "project" would take many months of work with step-by-step changes to realize, IF at all. It won't happen over-night. You all would have had the opportunity to give your input and your feelings, when the right time came. Unforrtunately some asshat leaked all of this when the whole process of creating the idea just started, what should I say... shit happens.
This is my personal point of view as database mod who was recruited exactly at the beginning of the crisis, and as the leader of Binktopia...
Sorry for not being there last night....lol YOU PEOPLE ARE STILL KEEPING THIS ON, LOL
I want to say a lot more of what I've said and say it again and again but...let's face it no one reads my post cuz they are evil and long, lol.
Legit_reader: But manga grows on the trees.....quite sure I plucked one yesterday..wait lemme show it to you. Oh, here:
"However, as the cost of returning the package is in this case prohibitively expensive, we ask that you keep the original item with our compliments. Perhaps you would like to donate it to a charity in your area if you feel it would be appropriate to do so. There will of course be no additional charge for the replacement order." copyright by amazon.co.uk
What nice fellows ^^
Before I disappear, here a vid to say how it really is. Yes, Legit_reader's friend, Reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY
Enjoy, I did, lol.
isnt all this already illegal..
if u want to make it legal its gonna become pay to read.
普通に著作権とか考えると当たり前だと思うけど・・・
漫画がどんどん消えるよ～～～Σ(￣￣￣Д￣￣￣lll)
You claim that you won't go after scanlators, but you obviously will once your system comes into play, as shown by page 19 of your proposal.
Trying to control the whole scanlating scene is disgusting.
We do what we do for free, for the love of manga, and for everyone, everywhere, to be able to enjoy.
You also claim that scanlating is illegal, so please take down all the illegal scanlations on your website please.
They are illegal as said by yourselves.
So remove them right now.
You won't? Oh...that's...interesting.
You're even worse than Tazmo, at least he doesn't try and take over everything we do.
Thanks for trying to sell us all out.
"You claim that you won't go after scanlators, but you obviously will once your system comes into play, as shown by page 19 of your proposal."
What? The worst outcome for us *scanlators* would be that we lose MH as a place to post our releases at. One of so many place, and you can feel free to open an own website for your group if you don't have one yet. No one pushes you to do anything.
"We do what we do for free, for the love of manga, and for everyone, everywhere, to be able to enjoy."
Very true. But if that could become a legal thing to do, to some dagree, wouldn't that be awesome? I'd love to give back to the mangakas out there. After all we are just a really small aspect of the "brining manga to everyone". It's the mangakas that do so. You are so overestimating your importance, it's frightening.
"You also claim that scanlating is illegal, so please take down all the illegal scanlations on your website please.
They are illegal as said by yourselves. So remove them right now."
Please, now this is just childish. You saying it isn't illegal? You saying there is no need to change anything about it? Let's just wait for more C&D letters and keep on like nothing is happening? All the "official" manga readers such as ikki and the shonen sunday one are clear indicators that something is changing in the online scene. Mangahelpers has far more experience in this "business" which wasn't really one up till now, than the official publishers. Additionally it's run by fans, not by people who don't give a shit about americanized translations, censorship, etc. I trust all of the MH staff more than the official publishers, and if some kind of cooperation could happen, and we'd actually get some influence on the official stuff which I'd be more than happy to pay for, then that would be awesome. Really awesome. If it doesn't work out like the fans (we) want, it just won't succeed. All of the staff are aware of that, and I'm certain that njt will try to do his best. I have no reason to assume otherwise, seeing the history of MH as a trustworthy partner.
"You're even worse than Tazmo, at least he doesn't try and take over everything we do."
Are you an idiot? First of all, please don't talk for every scanlator out there. You are not respresenting anyone but you, just like I am stating my own personal opinion here. Tazmo is stealing our scans. Everyone's scans. He doesn't ask anyone if they want their scans being upped on his shitty website, he just leeches it off at places where he gets it for free and tries to sell it to people who are unaware that it's free material. Mangahelpers doesn't force you to submit your work here. You can even go and delete all of your releases, yourself. Additionally, you clearly *are* an idiot if you don't see the difference between paying Tazmo or paying Eiichiro Oda as an example, which would indirectly happen if this site would get official licensers to cooperate.
You are sickening me with your ignorance towards the changing situation the scanlation world is in. And the way people started to throw shit at MH because of an idea, which is far from being realized, after now soon 4! years of amazing service that MH offered us, for free, just makes me sad.
Didn't you read what zidane wrote? If not, then read it, and go back to your little cave and wait for another friendly troll to play with.
What you guys don't seem to understand is that if they are taking action against MH and decides to shut down this site, then you can't go to OM, MF, MU or whatever. They will continue to shut down other mangasites that are easily found. You can't expect the industry and publishers to be happy after having MH shut down and not doing anything about the other mangasites out there. If they are going to take action against us, they will take action against the whole community.
And no, we do not operate in the shadows.
@ncc - what's the problem? We're not selling anyone out. You need to relax, take a cup of coffee and think about this with an open mind.
If you're going to do it wrong, do it right!
Sorry, but your posts didn't really clear up anything for me.
Maybe I should wait for some actual staff to come by and answer some queries I brought up.
They're free to email me or PM me too, I don't mind.
Thanks for calling my points childish and me stupid by the way, that really helped me clear up the genuine comments and thoughts I have.
"What? The worst outcome for us *scanlators* would be that we lose MH as a place to post our releases at. One of so many place, and you can feel free to open an own website for your group if you don't have one yet. No one pushes you to do anything."
This for instance doesn't address anything even remotely related to the point I brought up regarding the points MangaHelpers brought up regarding controlling everything that happens with scanlating online, including "the source", RAWs.
Maybe you should actually read the proposal (please read it all), page 19 was the page that I brought up, but I do have more concerns as do others regarding the rest of it.
You can read it here, if you can't find it: http://foolrulez.org/manga/bin/read.php?manga=Manga+Helpers&chapter=Business+plan
I'll bring those up in due course if my original comments are addressed by staff.
Thanks.
I'm not against paying for mangas, I'm against me working my ass off solely for the sake of the publishers.
And I think that's something that bothers many scanlators (at least the ones I asked).
I'd welcome a site where I can read manga legally, even if it means paying a small sum.
But if the same site expects me to upload my scanlation work there for nothing, I'll probably get very annoyed.
We are all so sensitive about our releases and the work we put it, the effort; but the original mangaka put in effort as well. All our pretty excuses mean nothing as we steal from them.
We are under the impression that if it's on the internet it is free - that it is our 'right' not to pay. This system is not going to remain so and it will change - maybe years from now but change it will. And two things happen when things change; 1] some things die and 2] some things adapt. Those that adapt and survive had the forethought to realise change was coming - it is always coming.
Yes, this may not work and it may be flawed but an effort is being made. Instead of complaining and criticizing, come up with solutions. Set up and take responsibility.
Any time again mate, any time.
"This for instance doesn't address anything even remotely related to the point I brought up regarding the points MangaHelpers brought up regarding controlling everything that happens with scanlating online, including "the source", RAWs.
Maybe you should actually read the proposal (please read it all), page 19 was the page that I brought up, but I do have more concerns as do others regarding the rest of it."
It was addressed to your concerns of MH controlling everything. I'm saying: It's not. It's one of many sites, admitted, one of the biggest and clearly the one with the best service. But even if it would get to that deal, it wouldn't mean that you would have to stop scanlating. You'd merely lose this site to post your scans at.
And even that isn't even certain yet. Look at youtube. Official videos go along with pirated and fanmade stuff that was accepted there more or less. Not saying this is comparable, but just that this is a whole new "business", the rails aren't set yet, and we are possibly getting the opportunity to do that. To decide about the future of this scene which is unevitably becoming a business.
You are also simply ignoring all the other points I brought up.
and @ JustPassingByHm,
dude, you realize that nobody forces you to use the services of MH? You won't be forced to cooperate in any way with MH, as you haven't been in the past either. This, obviously, would only work by volunteering. Also, I'm stressing this point for the 4th time or so already, *nothing* is set yet. A meeting with the official side hasn't happened yet. Just wait and see what their position is. You people are worrying too far ahead. At this point, anything could happen, and I'm being optimistic thinking it'll turn out for the better, as I trust the staff of MH. If you don't, then it's your stance, no problem, *nobody* forces you to do anything, still.
@Nantalith,
wise words... wise words.
I didn't address your points because I didn't feel they were worth addressing.
They're just another rehashing of what MangaHelpers has said previously.
I'm glad that you have faith in the staff, the same ones that have left over this debacle.
That's nice to hear :).
Because of an unfinished LEAKED proposal that hasn't even been talked about in the staff.
I am a member of nerieru scans, which had more than two hundred releases on mangahelpers, at least 200 of them typesetted by me.
I admit, I don't got the "scanlator" title, because I was too lazy to inform myself how to get one.
So I can claim to have cooperated with mangahelpers in the past, even though it isn't apparent.
Telling people to stop complaining because nothing is set yet isn't very sound, in my opinion.
You're supposed discuss things first (here is where the complains take part), then make a general plan and lastly see how you can realize it.
And I welcome not being forced to do anything.
Note that I complain (and try to stay objective in that regard, which I hope I've been successful at) and don't flame furiously. ^^
The proposal looks pretty complete to me actually.
Maybe you're referring to the email or another document.
All of the data seems to have been compiled fairly meticulously, and it seems as though it was thought about quite hard on what to do about various things.
Perhaps by unfinished you mean a back cover?
Or you mean after the publisher responded a few times that the rest of the staff would be given some insight into the workings of this whole deal.
A site that they work very hard to maintain, but they're still kept in the dark about the dealings of.
Maybe some more openness between the staff and the community too would have helped, and still may help this site.
Again, take a look if you haven't read it: http://foolrulez.org/manga/bin/read.php?manga=Manga+Helpers&chapter=Business+plan
But foolrulez will still take the whoring-drama-out-of-the-blue-sky-without-reading-or-confirming-a-shit award this year.
Let's face it, once Mangahelpers goes through with this they will be the one dictating the terms about how we scanlators should do stuff, which I, being the pirate scum that I am, strongly resist.
Kotonoha has already contacted VIZ Media and is currently holding talks about us being integrated into their SigIkki site. This is a first-come-first-serve kind of deal, people! Needless to say, all our staff will be compensated handsomely once the contract has been inked, you know, like the guys from Youtube after Google bought them up.
Please go read his link...I take it you either didn't read it or didn't have concentration enough to read all the pages about how detailed our screwing in the assholes will be.
@Nomad
Oh, now it makes sense. I was wondering where you people from Kotonoha was gone to XD And why you came back......btw does this mean you will start doing Viz crap now? You know...the crap you hate and 90% of the other groups do? PS: Will you end Swweeet before or after the deal, or is that a dead project now? :D
@Nantalith
Yeah and thats why ncc said that they should take everything illegal down. Which means each and every release. Why are they still keeping it when they are trying to become legal? It's a oxymoron, contradictiom....it's weird? O.o cough*greed*cough
We (atleast "I") are (am) NOT forgetting that this whole system is illegal, MH is.
If they want to go legal, either delete everything you got and then get groups who want to be part of this to upload their stuff instead of expecting each and every group to read the news on the first page, and then decide.
Also you forget this part: When and if Viz say yes, all the Viz scanlations will disappear if Viz doesn't like to appear on MH, same with their raws. Viz will be in charge of their raws on MH.
Lastly: All other raws aren't allowed to be on MH since they would be illegal and connecting Viz with illegal stuff......is bad even for them. There's nothing called semi-legal, it's either legal or illegal. Please stop being naive, lol.
Stop being a stuckup. I'm still doing it for fun and when I got time to do so. I don't take donation and I don't expect people to pay me....oh wait I expect them to say thanks so my ego can fly to the sky and replace my complex about my lil junior..NOT! Well, I do expect them to help out if they want faster releases *gasp* Stop the stones, give up, give up!
Just cuz you went emo about scanlating and don't find it fun anymore, it doesn't mean the rest are in the same position. Like I said before if I wanted to earn money I would have done a hentai group instead, more and easier to get money from people.
I can't believe you're so naive, you're a grown man damnit.
You're not just taking a risk with your own site, you're taking a risk with the lives of thousands.
What if the publication companies take this "proposal" of yours as a challenge and they not only force you and all the scanlation groups they can find on your site to take down all of their licensed content, but also sue you and every scanlator they can find for losses? You would all be in so much debt that even your grandchildren would be forced to pay for your actions.
This is how lives are ruined. You're playing with fire and you're not the only one who is taking the risk of getting burned.
You keep on thinking that. Trophy wife and BMW? You delusioned fool!
Viz doesn't pay that much to their regular translators and editors and they sure as hell won't be doing it for people who have pirated their works for years.
Nah, taking others' projects isn't fun. Dunno what you think we've taken from others, except the authors. I can argument with: Everyone doesn't know japanese or korean enough to buy and read it. The day the actual author takes time and write my a mail about him not wanting me to use his stuff it won't be used. Like how Linda does (seijin-ka).
Yes, I know. I got too much time but hey it's better than use it to *** 24 hours and get blind, right?
Lulz, really? a japanese wifey?....damn you are convincing me. Though, I'm not sure you want that...if she isn't hawt. XD About the BMW....come over here and you can drive in mercedes all the time, we use them as cabs. ;)
PS: What about my Swweeet?
And you STILL haven't offered any points. Thank you for proving me right. It's a wonderful feeling when someone unknowingly admits defeat. As soon as someone wants to talk fact with you, just insult them and run off. All right all right. I'll hear your cute little points as to why 'buying' manga and 'killing' MH is going to make a difference in the long run.
Your companies have already killed themselves way before MH could. Now if you want to accuse this site of opening a casket, stabbing it a few times and running away, that's different. But isn't this just grave robbing, and not the murder that you are trying to pin on the site? So go on and keep buying your manga, sending the companies the message that three volumes per year of the same garbage, with equally as garbage translations is fine. 'Shrug' Just remember, stuff like Naruto nation and the OP speed release wouldn't have happened if people simply waited for the slow ass releases that you seem to be a fan of.
@the1: Where are my coke and tarts?
Scanlators and editors*
Have fun in jail, bra. Because that's where you are going.
Raising a lawsuit against you would be cheaper for Viz than try to "appease you". And guess who is going to be in serious debt WHEN Viz wins in a court of law.
Lol at you thinking you have any sort of leverage over Viz and comparing yourself to some " internet monster".
Either you are an idiot troll or you are a plain oxymoron.
@The1:
>Lulz
Stop that, your /b/ is showing.
Out of valid arguements so you turn to petty insults?
Really mature.
EDIT:
Cool edit, bro.
Pic related. http://tinyurl.com/yclyb99
The ability to tell the difference between irony and sarcasm is also a sign of intelligence.
Seeing as we want constructive criticism, both good and bad, Ideas etc and not read some love-quarrel.
I don't admit "defeat" as it isn't my battle. I don't "propose" anything because you guys are on a sinking ship. When you decide to jump off is up to you.
I am happy you have a "wonderful feeling" but I am not the one you are up against.
The market determines how many manga come out a year. Naruto is popular...insanely popular...so it gets faster releases. Publishers only release three volumes of a title a year because that's all the market can support. Why can't the market support more. Hmm...wonder why...
No one can refute these three facts, so unless there is some other leverage I am not thinking of, MH simply painted a target on its chest:
So what does MH have to negotiate with?
1) Exclusive technology? No.
2) Dedicated usership? No. The majority of users here will leave if it becomes a paysite.
3) Exclusive content? No. All that content that is here is stolen from the license owners.
So tell me, if I am a publisher why am I listening to MH?
1. The licensing companies have already realized that people prefer manga online over printed manga. And it's true that MH doesn't have technology that they don't have, but MH has been there before those comanies, so they (we) have more experience on that.
2. There is no need to make MH a pay site. If they find a way to not force the users to pay but still make a deal (I wonder how, though...), users won't leave.
3. There's no exclusive content in MH, but there are people who spend their time scanlating and translating, who could help the companies, and get help from them.
I think making scanlations legal by making a deal with the companies is good, but the way they're planning to do it isn't so much. But I'm sure they can find a way that is good for everyone.
It's like this - you read the documents, MH explanation & Q&A, and then you should have a somewhat clear picture. What you make up of it and where your imagination drift your thoughts is completely up to you.
At this point this is nothing more than a quarrel between die-hard-pirates afraid for the life of their e-penis futures and scanlators who want to evolve and take things to the next logical level.
Censored, don't start insulting people, keep it cool. - zidane
"1. The licensing companies have already realized that people prefer manga online over printed manga. And it's true that MH doesn't have technology that they don't have, but MH has been there before those comanies, so they (we) have more experience on that.'
People that are willing to pay for manga prefer physical copies. People that aren't willing to pay prefer online. Who does the license holder care more about?
A license holder can't allow DL, it would have to be some sort of streaming, and I don't think MH does that.
unokpasabaxaki said:
"2. There is no need to make MH a pay site. If they find a way to not force the users to pay but still make a deal (I wonder how, though...), users won't leave."
I wonder how, too. Again, MH has helped create a culture where something that cost something now costs nothing. The legal license holders are going to want something. Making MH manga readers pay for manga in their minds is like asking them to pay for air. It's never going to happen.
unokpasabaxaki said:
"3. There's no exclusive content in MH, but there are people who spend their time scanlating and translating, who could help the companies, and get help from them."
Companies have translators, so the need for scanlators is zero. What are you going to do to help the company? Why would the company want to help you? Scanlators are the enemy.
unokpasabaxaki said:
"I think making scanlations legal by making a deal with the companies is good, but the way they're planning to do it isn't so much. But I'm sure they can find a way that is good for everyone."
Viz isn't in charge of the law. No "deal" will make scanlations legal.
If it's really for the fans, you should hold a binding community wide vote to see how many approve your decision. If the majority of fans want to do this, then do it. If not, either tell us you want to make money and our opinions don't matter, or keep the site as is.
Say I'm someone who just reads the Big Three (Naruto, Bleach, OP) buying the volumes in English. I know there are a few more mangas over there, but I don't know what they're about and if I buy the volume and I don't like it I'd be wasting my money, so I don't buy the volume and don't read that series.
That's why the manga chapters are published on magazines in Japan. And that's also why many people prefers reading scanlated manga first, and then, if they like it they buy the volume. That's what I do at least.
I agree with this, the licencing companies are gonna want money, but we don't want to pay. The only thing that comes to my mind is more ads, or paid subscriptions to access to more features, but NOT paying to access the site or to download or read manga. (Or at least, having a paid subscription to read the official version, that may work)
Alright, I'm a licensing company and I need translators and typesetters (not cleaners because they already get the stuff cleaned; unless you count redrawing as part of the cleaning). I can get translators from anywhere, but it's not the same for typesetters. I need typesetters with experience, and where can I get them? From scanlation groups is a good answer, imho. And either translators and scanlators, if they are motivated to do their job, they work better; unlike professional translators and typesetters who just care about the money they get and not about the quality of what they're doing. Scanlators do it because they want to get their favourite manga in a good quality, even if they don't get paid; I don't think that's gonna change if they suddenly start getting paid for doing the same.
That's right, but scanlations are just illegal because they don't have the right to scan magazines and volumes that aren't their property, nor to edit what isn't theirs to offer it to other people. If they were provided the raws by the companies and they got the rights to edit and distribute it, that would be legal.
While your retorts are somewhat sound, I have yet to hear any constructive criticism in your 25+ posts.
There is, as a matter of fact, an online reader on jump's japanese website. You have to download it, and then you can view specific chapters online. They've posted like the first 1-5 chaps of OP, dragon ball, psyren, etc. The way the ap works is no physical copy is stored on your machine, rather, you view it through a remote connection.
I foresee you might respond with "oh but I can screenshot", but no. The images are at most lq/mq. Because of the resolution, you have to zoom in 3 times to read everything at HQ, and that's a hell of a lot of screencapture to reconstruct the original page. Also, I believe the ap blocks screencaps but I'm not too sure, never cared to try.
I have seen some very good online readers for people promoting their own works, such as comic artists from France who publish samples of their work on sites like deviantart. The pages are not full sized, and the applet is flash based, so the images are embedded--not single jpgs.
My point is, you most definitely CAN create a comic reader that will prevent a backup of the file in question; if at least making it very painstaking for those trying to subvert the system.
@unokpasabaxaki
yes it's true, for example I want to buy psyren if it's already available here..
Lot of manga has attractive cover but when I look at the inside, it's just so-so, and some manga even boring.
I also found some interesting manga that has no interesting cover like 20th century boys, I already bought it(already available here :P).
Without scanlation I won't know which one is good and which one is bad just by the cover.
While it's clear that manga came first, and scanlations do very well undermine the system, they have also served a previously unexpected benefit in bring fan awareness to titles that are otherwise unlicensed here. More than that, they've created a fan base for a title so that upon licensing there are people who will buy in. The problem is, as legit so vehemently argues, you can't be sure the profits are there because spoiled kids won't dish out any money. That's true. But there are people who will. So do you just throw in the towel altogether?
RAW distribution undermines the publishers directly, since, as I commented and got no response on, we get like 40% of our visitors from Asia. Those guys and gals don't need our wonderful help since they can already read the scans. Is MangaHelpers really helping the publishers in this respect?
However, for us who would otherwise be at the mercy of the licensing companies on the western side, those scans give us a peek into the industry we'd otherwise not know about.
Have you even watched the VERY informative panel discussion of which HBK was a member? Dig through the old news archives and look it up. They had industry reps having a very candid debate about the pros and cons of scanlations. While they acknowledge the damage it causes to them, they also concede that it serves some beneficial effects.
The question that everyone here should be talking about is, how can we retain the benefits of exposure that scanlations afford and still support the industry? Stop arguing to abolish scanlations and stop ragequiting MH because you think they're going to take money you don't want to pay anyway. This is still on the table, let's hear something constructive.
Personally speaking, I've helped scanlate, sort of freelance-like, random chapters of random series, so I know it can be extremely time consuming. I also know, however, that there's nothing forcing you to do it. Mangahelpers.com certainly isn't the only place you can access chapters from obscure titles, though it certainly is one of the easiest.
Since this whole thing is still in the planning process, I won't make any decisions about whether or not I like it just yet. But I think that other people should take into account that regardless of what MH does, this is the freaking internet. I'm sure there's plenty of other sites you can use if you don't like the decision reached.
That being said, I rather like YOUR (as in the MH group's) ideas and suggestions, but I'm skeptical as to whether the publishers will like them as much. Above all else, fans and raving flamers aside, this is business. It always has been and always will be. Things may not work out so nicely. If this whole thing ends up giving too much ground or has too many loopholes (crunchyroll, I'm looking at you) I can see how I probably wouldn't be a part of it.
If this is how you feel, you'd never created this site or turned it into what it is right now. You'd have closed it down or made it a place purely for discussion about manga/anime.
Most of the people here, come to download or upload manga, which is illegal. And this site distributes that material which is illegal too.
Let's not pretend that the purpose of this site is to give back or that it was made with the intention to become so big that it could one day take the step you're planning to take now.
I'm not saying that this isn't what you're hoping for or that you just made it up, but it's certainly not the main reason why you take this step now.
Recently MH got forced to delete some of the series, right? And you said yourself that the other publishers would probably follow soon. You know that this will destory MH. And you also know that this would never hurt the scanlation community. It would simply move elsewhere. You take this step now, because you want to prevent MH from becoming obsolete. That is the main reason.
To be honest, this could be made to work somehow, but it's also very unlikely. I can't really see the publishers going for this, though. They should be intelligent enough to know that this site will lose a lot of visitors if they charged money for scanlations. People will get it from another place for free.
Because they know that you can never stop this. If they were serious about it, they'd go on baka and follow the links to all the releases to the webistes and hand out C & D's like candy. And even that wouldn't get rid of scanlations.
You can never get rid of crime. Everything get's pirated or illegally copied. Clothes, games, movies, music, books, you name it. You can fight it, but only with a lot of time, people & resources. In the end that will only costs to company money and still not get rid of the problem.
Plus, I don't think people would use this site much if you charged money, unless it was a very small amount. Which I find unlikely. Companies don't do that usually. Look at how much money nike is earning each year. Does that make the clothes any cheaper? I haven't noticed. It's not just about making profit. It's normally about making as much profit as possible and to make more each year.
I think the publishers would choose a price that may seem cheap, but if you add up all the chapters for one volume, the price will be close to that of a printed version. Or is downloading music really cheap? I'm not much of a music fan, so I wouldn't know.
Let's not forget that this is just the plan of the people at MH. In the end, the publishers will decide everything. Because MH can never be a partner of viz, since they have nothing to offer them. They will work for them and therefore only be able to voice their opinion, hoping to make a difference.
In my opinion the best and only way, having a shot of working is:
Keep it the way it is now. People have to be able to download without paying or you won't find many people willing to get their stuff from here. Earning money with ad's is not that hard.
Here is where it get's different. Tell them they have to pay us nothing at all. That way, they can earn the money, without spending any. Providing better raws will not cost them anything.
Why would people not do this? We scanlate manga now for free when it's illegal, why not when it's legal. Because we'd be helping the publishers earn money, without getting anything? We'd keep getting our manga dose for free and it would be legal.
And more importantly we will get to keep our freedom. We won't have to scanlate things after their timetable and by their rules, which we'd have to do if they pay us.
I'd gladly help them earn money for both reasons.
Next, get their permission to upload on filehosters. You can upload everything on this site on mediafire, and you don't even have to buy a premium account. And they won't delete the files after a certain amount of days as long as you keept the account active. That way, you can get rid of a lot of your servers (and the horrible download speed) and lower the costs of this site.
That way, it won't be such a big shock for ýou when you tell them that they don't have to pay you any money. Only then, can you become partners with them and get a little vote on matters. On top of that you shouldn't get money. For what? Running this site, when the publishers could easily find another one or make one themselves? For your experience in all this, that you seem to overrate the value of?
I'd also tell them we will only release after the chapters have hit the store, if that is what they want.
I'd have no problem with this plan.
One last thing. About the business plan. Don't say it was just a draft. It took someone certainly more than just one hour to come up & write all this. It was not just a rough draft that could turn into anything.
Plus, there were some things in there, that shouldn't have even made it into a rough draft. Like asking the publishers to be more strict in controlling the illegal distributions.
@legit.
I don't admit "defeat" as it isn't my battle. I don't "propose" anything because you guys are on a sinking ship. When you decide to jump off is up to you.
Lol at this. You're on a sinking ship laughing at our sinking ship. You do realize this right? Online is the new age, and frankly there's nothing that Viz can do that MH hasn't already done (and failed at.) I buy my manga as I said before, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'When you decide to jump off.'
I am happy you have a "wonderful feeling" but I am not the one you are up against.
Maybe this is true, but as many people have pointed out before, you're here talking this and talking that, but in the end it just adds up to you being self righteous because you buy manga. Whether you're right or wrong isn't really the point when every post you have here is simply reinstating how much you feel we suck. When you're ready to come and offer something to put on the table, let us know.
The market determines how many manga come out a year. Naruto is popular...insanely popular...so it gets faster releases. Publishers only release three volumes of a title a year because that's all the market can support. Why can't the market support more. Hmm...wonder why...
Lol can I buy some of the magical fairy powder you inhaled to come up with this? It's a dead system. What about us who don't like Naruto or Bleach? These publishers have had chances to get us stuff faster and refuse to. MH is not an extensive list of what's available, yet they release the same stuff over and over again. Lets look at Katekyo Hitman Reborn for example. One new volume every three months. Lets say I was trying really hard to be just like our 'big boy' legit. Do you seriously think it's okay to have to wait that long for another release? Even if you want to blame MH for offering free releases, look at the alternative. I'm offering Viz my money, but they've got nothing to give me for it. MH and One manga have been around for ages too, and yet Viz (or any other company for that matter) has done nothing about it. You'd think if these places were so HORRIBLE that they'd cut them off quick, yet they don't....hmm indeed.
No one can refute these three facts, so unless there is some other leverage I am not thinking of, MH simply painted a target on its chest:
Um, last I checked, MH has been here and getting bigger for a pretty damn long time. Where's the Vizcopter with dogs and swat teams knocking us over? You honestly believe that a letter from MH asking to team up with them is really going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back? Or is it that this is what your fairy godmother told you?
So what does MH have to negotiate with?
1) Exclusive technology? No.
Viz would do the same thing this site would do.
2) Dedicated usership? No. The majority of users here will leave if it becomes a paysite.
Viz or any other online reader wouldn't garner any dedicated usership either. I read it online once. Maybe buy the tank (Most likely not.)
3) Exclusive content? No. All that content that is here is stolen from the license owners.
Annnd they couldn't get this either, as if no one is buying anything, no one knows what to pick up. So sadly your point is moot here too.
So tell me, if I am a publisher why am I listening to MH?
So tell me, what do you possibly think that buying manga and supporting a dead system will accomplish?
1. What we do is what I say is a necessary evil. We, the raw provides, scanslators and translators, bring a wide variety of manga out there to be experienced by all, from the well known to the rarely-heard of series. This is how many series started out, this is how many will remain, and some may rise above it...but just because some get more popular than others doesn't mean the others don't deserve to be treated respectfully too.
2. It's because of us that some series become huge and others collapse as the same happens in Japan. See how Naruto and Bleach, which had established bases, only grew from there with Viz...and how OP, which was rather smaller and fragmented at first, ended up with that 4Kids fiasco.
3. All of us have different tastes and we live in a market where we can't sustain them all. Since the big manga/anime crash, the companies have realized they can't just bring anything and everything over anymore, so they've mostly just worked with series they know will probably have buyers instead of experimenting or building a base for a manga. If we want to discover more, sometimes our only option is to read and discover things elsewhere to see what else is out there. Just because the salespeople think we all want to read shoujo and Haruhi doesn't mean I'm one of them. (for example)
4. First and foremost, MH should end up as a hub for manga. If all the scans have to be taken down, I'm fine with that since people can probably get them elsewhere somehow or another. (as hard as it is for many series) But just because there are no scans on here doesn't mean that the work can stop. We can continue to translate and scanslate series and use this as a hub to notify and release our works as well as direct to where we can get these things.
The truth is this is a difficult situation we're all in. We can't just buy what we want in this country or pay a ton of shipping to get the series we want via Amazon.jp and scanslations and raws are a tempting alternative that allow for us to widen our horizons. But at the same time the companies are starting to catch on to us and want to make sure they make money too even if all we want is our stories. I wish there was an easy solution to this but all we can do is make do for the moment.
THIS. We need more of THIS.
@Shrimpy.
I really like your ideas too. We can beat both dead systems to death, or put the two of them together to make something that everyone can be happy with. I know I come off as pessimistic, but I simply want legal avenues to both spread, and enjoy the wealth of entertainment that is manga.
If you actually believe the notion that people "taste test" manga here, then run out and buy them, I think you are a bit delusional. And if taste-testing is the argument, then why are complete series and dozens of volumes allowed? Put up three volumes, and if people like it they can go out and buy it.
@shrimpy
That reader sounds like a good idea. Only MH doesn't do it.
@ Bomber
I am not self-righteous because I buy manga, I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of people complaining about how their "work" is used when they stole that work in the first place.
You can argue that publishing is dead and online is the future, and that may be true, but giving it away for free will never be a feasible business model.
.....When did I ever say that free is better? Or even legal for that matter? I'm just refuting your point that buying manga solves everything. I've said it plenty of times now that I buy my manga, Translated for Gintama, and raw for everything else. So MH raws really don't affect me one way or another. I translate because I like doing it, and am confident that the series I do won't see the light of day here.
I'd like to see MH survive and thrive legally, but we really need to take a step back and see what's NOT working in order to find what will.
My point was never "buying manga solves everything." But I would say stealing manga solves nothing.
MH works because it is free. But free=illegal. MH has no negotiating power with a publisher, because to be legit means pay site. The vast majority of MH users are gone once they need to pony up money.
So my question still remains: If I am a publisher, why am I talking to MH?
And my question remains too. What would shutting this place down and continuing down the path of self destruction really accomplish? No matter what any publisher wants to do, they've probably done it, and it's failed. If MH users are abandoning ship once this place goes legit, what makes you think that they're going to go to a place that offers the same service....and still asks for money?
I don't think I called for MH to be shut down, but what I said was, by making a lot of noise and bringing a lot of attention to itself, MH puts publishers in the position of having to react. Look at what Kodansha did. I would guess that may be the first of more C&D letters.
Indeed, because of the nature of the Internet, if people are not willing to pay for manga, they will find a way to get it for free...so if MH users are forced to pay, the vast majority will go somewhere free. Lawyers are expensive, which is why MH has been around as long as it has. We'll see if that remains the case.
So my question still remains: If I am a publisher, why am I talking to MH?
Soooo the fact that MH has been here THIS long, and wants to cooperate should result in...legal backlash? Again I ask, why? They've had to notice that this place has been here. Do you think some Viz exec just said 'Hey let's speed up Naruto and One piece for no reason at all?' Before MH became big they were getting slow releases right? So...why speed them up unless something out there is doing it faster?
Listen, I never said that MH is going to be successful in it's venture to get the official's attention. I DO believe that this is a step in the right direction. You still haven't told me what exactly the publishers have as a leg up in NOT at least hearing this deal out. You keep saying 'Exclusive content, Customer loyalty, and Exclusive technology', but the publishers don't really have those either...or at least they haven't shown them off. So from the way it looks we're at a standstill here.
Well in any case, we'll see how long it is until you walk into a book store and find nothing there. It's already started in any case. Lets just hope we've all got other hobbies in mind. I for one love stargazing. :-P
But, what legit is trying to say is, MH has nothing to offer the publishers. Well, you're half-wrong. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, scanlations in general have had the effect I just wrote above. You have said in previous posts that scanlations (MH by logical inference) are to blame for hurting the industry. Like I said above, it was something that started because the industry wasn't doing enough. And it's been a driving force pushing the industry to do more.
Is it necessary? I can't argue either way. Does it hurt the industry? Sure. But there has to be a way to bridge speed, quality, and legality in this issue.
So stop this pointless argument, both of your sides have been heard.
Isn't there any way we can bridge these two systems for the better?
That MH would somehow legitimize the process is very appealing to me. However, I will say that I am very picky about who I work with so it seems unlikely to me that I will end up taking part in any legitimate manner. But it is significantly easier for me not have to do any work and have some of the titles I want to see in English appear in English.
As far as leechers having to pay, well damn right they should pay.
So why does MH want to go legit now? They have tons of ads, so what is the interest in trying to go legit? Could it be that the owners here know that Kodansha was only the first to take legal action, and the only way for MH to stay alive is to find some legal way to function?
The reason OP and Naruto get faster releases now has nothing to do with MH. The reason is the market can support more releases from the top titles like Naruto and OP, but cannot for less popular titles.
Lots of other titles get faster release on MH but those titles are not hurried up by the publishers.
Just because MH wants to go legit doesn't mean it hasn't been an illegal operation for a very long time.
The reason the publisher's have no reason to join forces with MH is because it would be beneficial to MH, but there is no benefit to the publishers.
As it stands now it is more profitable to print and sell physical copies than it is to go online. That's not a secret. The reason all-online publishing isn't profitable is because once you give up physical copies the publishers are "competing" with sites like this that give it away for free. There's no win there. So what many publishers have done is written off online and focused on selling physical books.
The publishers do have exclusive content (official translations and access to creators and artists) they do have customer loyalty.
What does MH have to offer to Viz?
Scanlations? Don't need them.
Scanlators? Don't need them.
Millions of users unwilling to open their wallets? Don't need them.
So what then?
You give too much credit to the power sites like MH have over publishers. Although scanlations can bring attention to titles that are not being published yet, the affect of these sites does relatively little to change or influence decisions made by publishers.
The simple fact is that publishers know the majority of people that read scanlations are not willing to pay for them anyway. Money talks and BS walks, and one person willing to spend $10 on a manga is infinitely more valuable to the publisher than 1000 people who aren't.
You can say free sites get people to buy manga, but I would argue free sites get more people NOT to buy manga then get to buy, so I would argue (and the publishers have said the same) that sites like this one do NOT help the manga publishing houses.
@Unproductive
But MH posts manga that are already licensed and available in English. If MH wants to go legitimate, why not remove every title that already has an official translation in English?
As it stands now it is more profitable to print and sell physical copies than it is to go online. That's not a secret. The reason all-online publishing isn't profitable is because once you give up physical copies the publishers are "competing" with sites like this that give it away for free. There's no win there. So what many publishers have done is written off online and focused on selling physical books.
Publishers have been selling physical copies for years. If this worked why are sites like MH and One manga popular? Because this method doesn't work. If it did, why is Viz embracing it so? They too realize that it's a dead one trick pony. Eventually physical won't matter at all, because no one's going to bother waiting for the physical to hit stores, especially since internet is all about speed. Why wait three months for something that I can get quicker elsewhere? Sorry but there's no win in physical copies either. Your publishers know this too.
The publishers do have exclusive content (official translations and access to creators and artists) they do have customer loyalty.
...No they don't. If they did we would be talking about how awesome our favorite manga is rather than discussing this matter. If they had loyalty, there would be no MH. And what's the difference between an official translation and an unofficial one if the official translation is terrible? If they had the loyalty you speak of....why are we talking about this?
What does MH have to offer to Viz?
Scanlations? Don't need them.
Scanlators? Don't need them.
Millions of users unwilling to open their wallets? Don't need them.
What does viz have?
A crappy selection with crappy translaton and crappy wait times?
HQ that no one really buys anyway?
Online readers that are exactly the same as what's here already?
So what then?
Good question. Do you know?
@Shrimpy.
You know, You've got a point man. I'm done arguing this point. I still feel like the whole system is pretty much a dead body in the water at this point. But hey what do I know? I've only been buying and disappointed with the american market for a few years. I must be such an awful person for hoping that we could change it for the better. Oh well.
I do like your reader idea though. I probably won't use it as I'm buying raw manga from the source anyway. But that should put the kibosh on some whining.
But we are always betrayed by the companies, they check the popularity of manga and buy the license, then forbid us to continue our work.
The copyright is a joke on the internet, we have long been a culture of anything that falls on the internet is free. Companies try to eliminate it but it is impossible, the Internet will never be 100% capitalist.
And I speak as a citizen of Brazil, one of the nations where piracy has reached 50% of the market here still have the mentality that expensive stuff that can be copied will be shared even if it is prohibited. And always find a way around it.
I buy here and manga original from Japan and I am disappointed with the quality offered here, the paper is of poor quality and color pages is a rarity.
Now offer the community a way to pay for manga and help the author is a good idea, but at what price. I believe that we will lose more than win. And in the end will be history for ox sleep.
Protect ancient mangas are killing the children that they could not have any chance to achieve popularity.
If you only hang out with thieves, then you think everyone must be a thief.
There is profit to be made in physical copies...more than online at this point, and that is why Viz is a publisher that is scheduled to release more physical titles in 2010 than they did in 2009.
Maybe you don't see it, but there are lots of people going to bookstores, comic shops, Amazon, etc. and buying books. Naruto has sold MILLIONS of copies, and continues to dominate. That's why it gets faster releases. So you can say paper books are dead, but until they stop selling, publishers will continue to publish. It is still more profitable than online.
People still like to hold the book and put it on their shelf when they are done, and for many people (like me) that will never change.
So what does MH have to offer Viz? You asked if I know, and I certainly do not, that's why I asked. I don't use or work for MH, so I don't have to worry about coming up with an answer, but there are people here that do need to do that.
1. The digital distribution of manga is not going away. The illegal digital distribution of manga - or anything - music, movies, books, etc. - is not going away. If ever scanlation site and group in the world is shut down, someone will scan the officially licensed version and put it somewhere on the internet. That's already started with the series that don't have scanlations. What scanlations can do is 1.) Release non-licensed series 2.) Provide some damn good marketing for the titles that are already licensed. 3.) Provide a higher-quality release for already licensed titles that may have a crappy, lazy translation that sucks all of the characterization out or messes up the setting or plot or something, or is not released in the highest graphic quality.
2.) On the subject of capitalism, and how scanlations are the evil commie enemy of capitalism - now, I'm not an expert on capitalism or economics by any means, but I can read the dictionary, and I'm pretty damn sure that every definition of capitalism I've read has something to do with "free market forces determine the prices of goods and services." Do you know what the free market price of the distribution of manga, -- or music, movies, books, or tv -- is right now? $0.00. Or yen. Or euros. Whatever. Let's look at a definition of the "free market." "Business governed by the laws of supply and demand, not restrained by government interference, regulation or subsidy." So, without intellectual property government-passed LAWS backing them up, any distribution company is absolutely screwed, because with the advent of the internet, every single thing they do can now be done for free. It can be done BETTER for free. That's fricking capitalism for you.
In every media industry, this is what is happening. It's no longer about being a distributor. It's about being a content producer. The game has changed vastly in the last ten years, and every media company is just playing catch-up. And if they don't release things for free, online, someone else will. Most companies - TV and newspapers come to mind -- are putting their stuff online and reaping the ad revenue. Although TV and newspapers were always ad-rev supported, so maybe that's a bad example.
I had a point about this but I forgot what it was. I think it was that it would be nice to give the content producers and creators some revenue. But I think that's up to each individual. Do you read manga online and then go buy the raws (or some of raws, I doubt any of us is made of money) so that the creators and content providers can have enough money to create more stuff? I don't think people can be forced into paying for stuff.
3.) I discovered manga when I took my first Japanese class in 2001. Some girl in my class had a Card Captor Sakura artbook, and I thought it was the most adorable thing I'd ever seen, and oh my god, the clothes. At that point there was no manga in the bookstores. So I read CCS scanlations online, and fell in love. I remember how excited I was the first time I saw manga in the bookstore. It didn't even take up one shelf.
Every single year I've seen scanlations grow. And you know the funny thing? Every single year the manga section in the bookstore gets bigger and bigger, too. So take of that what you will.
4.) That idea that not paying for something you read makes you a criminal, and a horrible person because the writer isn't seeing any money for it. So I guess every person with a library card is now a criminal, too? Every person who borrows a book should be awash in shame because the writer isn't seeing a profit from their reading?
@Bomber
"Where's the Vizcopter with dogs and swat teams knocking us over?"
This may be one of the greatest sentences I have ever read.
If you only hang out with thieves, then you think everyone must be a thief.
Using that logic, you must hang out with silly idealists.
There is profit to be made in physical copies...more than online at this point, and that is why Viz is a publisher that is scheduled to release more physical titles in 2010 than they did in 2009.
Watch several of them fail. Just like they've been cutting titles this year too.
Maybe you don't see it, but there are lots of people going to bookstores, comic shops, Amazon, etc. and buying books. Naruto has sold MILLIONS of copies, and continues to dominate. That's why it gets faster releases. So you can say paper books are dead, but until they stop selling, publishers will continue to publish. It is still more profitable than online.
An example of one series, but again what do us who do NOT like Naruto do? Ride the wave and hope things get better? Yeah, no thanks. I guess I'll just keep buying raw manga from Japan then. Problem with this is it's a singular focus, which as usual doesn't help sales at all.
People still like to hold the book and put it on their shelf when they are done, and for many people (like me) that will never change.
Hm. I like that feeling too. Just bought some Gintama the other day. Wonderful stuff that is...while it lasts~ (Which won't be long.)
So what does MH have to offer Viz? You asked if I know, and I certainly do not, that's why I asked. I don't use or work for MH, so I don't have to worry about coming up with an answer, but there are people here that do need to do that.
So...why come here if you don't plan on giving us an answer to this question? Do you see how this kind of makes you look like a troll again? This 'I don't use this site so it's not my problem' mentality? Why post? Why not go to that book store and keep doing your thing?
"Publishers have been selling physical copies for years. If this worked why are sites like MH and One manga popular?"
¡Oh, oh! I know the answer: BECAUSE THEY'RE FREE!!! that's it (=
I aim to please ^^.
We are just going back and forth. But I ask the question "What does MH have to offer Viz?" not because I have an answer, but because if MH doesn't have an answer, then they are screwed.
So far I cannot see any reason for Viz to respond positively to MH's offer, but if someone can, I would love to hear about it.
And I keep asking you what is it that Viz has done that hasn't already failed? I'm not asking this because I want to defend MH by any means. I like this place, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that what's going on here is legal.
So far I can't see a reason that physical print is really any better than reading it online with the way Viz and the other companies run their game. Citing slow releases, poor translation, and lack of variety. I'd love to have one decent reason other than 'it's the right thing to do' to bother supporting anyone other than the Japanese publishers, which I'm already doing by buying raws.
I do agree however that we are just going around in circles. So I guess we'll just agree to disagree and that's that. You can't blast me for being 'wrong' since I buy my stuff too, and I can't really say much about you since you buy physical copies. 'Shrugs' I guess we'll see what'll happen over time.
Who knows when they do a search of how people discovered the manga and decided to buy, receive a shock because people indicated that a community of fans pointed to the right place to purchase.
It is important that it works for all languages indicating which company sells the product in your area.
What do you think of this idea? This will not be helped much more profitable business and improve the community image.
Recommend immediate implementation.
Maybe I am not understanding the question. Viz has done tons of stuff that hasn't failed.
If you are saying simply being a physical publisher means you fail, well, I don't agree, but there isn't much point in arguing it.
If you are saying all Viz translations suck, well, that's a matter of opinion. I like a lot of their stuff, and can't remember any problems with the writing off the top of my head.
Gag manga is primarily the victim in such cases, though I can think of some other exceptions. You're right Legit, you don't know what you're missing. But I take it you don't really care, either.
Why would you think I don't know what I am missing? As a translator you know there are LOTS of ways to translate the same thing from Japanese. Those are editorial choices, and it is hard to say there is a right way and a wrong way. Sometimes in depth explanations make sense. Sometimes replacing a joke with a similar pun in English makes sense...depends on the title and audience.
If you prefer reading your manga in Japanese, great! Sometimes I do, too. That's really the only way to get it in "pure form".
However, the fact that something will always be lost in translation does not mean that licensors should have their material stolen from them.
However, i am just one voice among many...but MH, you have my support in any decision you make.
1. regarding paying for reading mangas online.
I suggest also offering an online store, where you get a good discount on the volumes, in case you already spend on reading mangas online.
For example: if you spend 7$ on your subscription reading mangas online, then you'll also get a 7$ discount on your next manga purchase, i.e. basically one volume for free (well, you have to pay the shipping).
It's a good compromise, I think.
Of course, not everyone is willing to pay and will still boycott this site.
But it's better than paying twice, just because you read it online and then decide you want to have the volume.
2. regarding scanlators contributing to this site:
I doubt that many scanlators are willing to continue contributing to a money generating site, when they themselves don't have any kind of benefit.
So how about giving them some sort of discount on the online viewing (and thus also on the actual volumes)?
(I'm purposely leaving out the details, having thought of them yet)
That way, the scanlators won't feel like the only losers in this deal.
Well, that's all I have to say.
Ah yes, and try to keep the costs as low as possible through ads and stuff like this.
My translation issues stem from more than simply translating something different. Let's use Gintama for example. Using honorifics on one chapter, then dropping them the next. Using Yorozuya half the tank, and then 'Free lancer' the rest. No liner notes to explain the more in depth puns and references, and of course the fact that volume one is still woefully inept and inconsistant with the rest of the series. With all of these problems is it any wonder that I don't want to support the companies at all? Gintama needs a proper translation as a gag series to work, and it's falling short of this.
@Shrimpy
Marvelously put. Sadly as you say, most people will prefer the watered down versions of these manga and the rest of us will have to put up with it.
It were not even a handfull of people, yes indeed. Then the whole idea was brought down to the next lower level, which are the other admins and globals, since that's how such ideas are supposed to be handled. The circle of input should obviously be increased step by step. The "boss" has an idea, and discusses it with his best men, then he presents his idea to the next lower staffers so the circle increases to roughly 20 people. The idea needs a lot of working on still, obviously. At some point all the staffers get to see it, and around 50 people can give input on the roughly finished project. Possibly, in this case, the circle would have been increased to trusted scanlators and translators to hear them out, too. And only then such an idea would've been ready to being presented to everyone. Unfortunately, trusted people leaked this whole thing before any further working on it was possible. The whole process chain got ruined... at least that's how I see it. Some people cry for complete insight of every step "we" take, but that's just being unrealistic...
I got my mod status just last week, my super mod status yesterday. I'm biased towards you leechers as a long-time scanlator, that's all. And like I said. Of course this would have been presented to the next lower staff level, and eventually to the community, asking for their input, but it'd have been a step-by-step process. The leak of this document ruined that process and caused all of this ruckus.
There is this thing called google analytics, and many other sites that can support you with detailed information as such. But it's only natural that every site owner keeps track of the statistics of his site. But yeah, I still stay by my point that even if MH and Viz can find an agreement, it'll take a lot of time to take this venture in action. Let's all just wait and see how it develops. I can tell you that the rough draft is going to get more detailed behind the scene's, and we are taking all the input we got here into consideration, eventhough it wasn't planned in this order...
wah wah my poor zoro, god bless his name. curse those blasphemers wah wah
to your information, I buy manga in Austria - the nearest place to buy manga for me and it is not my country so >.>...but in the past I read some manga from friends who were in America and some years later I read the original version and I was dumbfounded and I am NOT thalking about Zorro=Zolo, ok? And don´t even mention animes...
Gin Tama is a great example of a book that really needs to be read in Japanese to be 100% appreciated. This is one of the problems Viz realized with that title. I could give you a laundry list of what went wrong (changing translators each issue, too many chefs), but the main problem was not deciding a vision for the title from volume one.
With a book like Gin Tama which combines samurai-era Japan with very up-to-the-minute Japanese pop culture references, an explanation of each gag would require a supplement almost as long as the book itself. I am not saying there isn't a market for that, but there isn't a very big one.
So, sure you have the right to purchase the original Japanese, and translate it for your own entertainment, but once those RAWs or translations are posted, the law is broken.
But we are getting off the topic...
I know that njt's proposal isn't the best, but at least it's one. It's a lot better that just keep being illegal and end up wiped out little by little by every single jap publisher. I think that if Japanese publishers, licensing companies and scanlators work together, they can help each other so that fans can get their fix, and publishers and companies can get their share, and scanlators can get their resources, without having the fans to pay for reading or downloading (utopias can become true, you know...?).
I know doing this is risky, but what else can anyone do? After all, most scanlators just do it because they want to give people stuff that they can't get where they are, be it unlicensed manga, or the latest chapters of the licensed ones. But after all, if you're doing illegal stuff and want to make a deal to a company to be legit... it's hard to make it in a way that is good for both... However, I trust that njt and the rest of the staff can work out something that satisfies everyone. And you should trust them too, legit reader.
See those are reasons that keep me from really wanting to support Viz. If Gintama's such a problem that it causes them to trip over themselves in inconsistancy, then I'd rather they didn't do it. I know I know, I'm really not in any authority to say that, but you get my fustration right? I want to support Viz and others, but not if I'm going to pay them to give me a lackluster product.
The mere act of 'Translation' is for others. If I wanted to enjoy Gintama alone, I wouldn't bother translating it for myself either. I'd just read the raw manga. Now I'm not saying I deserve a pardon because Viz is ruining my favorite series but it does annoy me quite a bit that I'm just supposed to put up with it.
You seem to know the series pretty well.....are you a fan?
The problems with Gintama were actually not Viz's fault, but because of demands by the Japanese license holder forcing Viz to use their in-house Japanese translators rather than Viz getting to hire native English speaking ones. I do not know if that is still the case today, but it was true at one point. And yes, I do know the series quite well.
Being able to read Japanese gives you the right and the ability to buy the Japanese originals. But it doesn't give you the rights to distribute them. Nothing I am going to say or you are going to say is going to change that.
Like I said in my last post, I realize that. I didn't know that information about the in house translation though.
In any case As I said before, I suppose we'll see how MH fares in the future. If it does fall, I'll have no where to post translations anyway, and the problem with the publishers and contracts doesn't concern me as I don't use them as a middleman.
If it falls, it'll just be another normal day of me buying stuff from Sasuga and HMV as usual :-P
Anyways, i still havent got a answer on one of my questions.
To any of Mangahelpers Staff.
Are ya also talking to Kodansha(Or Del Rey)?
Even though i would Subscribe if the release of One Piece(Viz) comes faster it, would benefit me more Personally if ya guys made a deal with kodansha, since in total i like their titels more.
To legit...a small question.
Have you ever downloaded any sort of illigal thing? Music, Movies, Cracked software etc.? WY am i asking this? bcos many compare the manga/anime industry with the mentioned above things. I will just do the opposite.
If u answer NO, then ur lying.
If u answer YES, all ur comments will mean nothing(to me)
If u answer YES with a reason like....its different.....then ur in denial.
I find this a great idea of mangahelpers. They are trying to go from "We dont give u Shit" to "U can make money of this, it just needs more thought and help from each other".
For the people that havent read the above faq and answering like blind chickens, they dont release any content w/o permission of the group(s) or person responsible of the content like translations, like they said ITS NOT CRUNCYROLL, TAZFAG OR any other site comparable to the other 2.
This plan of MangaHelpers wont work without the help of the Scanlators, Translators and in whole the GROUPS. The Manga companies and license holders aint getting anything now from the community part that dont buy anything online or in the stores, with this even though at start it will be not HUGE atleast the manga companies and/or license holders will get something, and hopefully as times goes by alot more.
Oh come on, seriously try at least to pretend that you people don't make it for the money. All this talk about giving back to the mangaka etc is just nonsense. Anyway what is irritating me like hell is that you try to pass it as if "We are doing what is right and you people are just leechers who need their "fix". Let me ask you: Were you not a "leecher" before who needed his "fix" in the beginning?
Apart from that, you are giving Viz and all the publishers an opportunity for a storm of C&D just by notifying them that "Hey you know what? In our site alot of illegal stuff happens but ummm, we want to go legal and make money out of it! So yea, if by the way you happen to stumble upon a few links pointing out to the scanlation group, well punish them, for they are illegal!"
Quit acting all innocent. This is what is frustrating everyone. By the way I do believe that this *may* be a draft, but definitely it is very close to the final one.
@Ungrateful:
By the way it really pisses me off when certain people who REALLY needed help from the community at some point are now flaming it. SHAME on you. You know who you are and everyone who has been here long enough knows it as well.
--------
That's the end of my ranting. I am grateful to MH for all the good times I've spent here and all the fun I've had by finding out new series to read, by enjoying the ability to select from A HUGE variety which scanlation i want to read to get my "fix".
"To legit...a small question.
Have you ever downloaded any sort of illigal thing? Music, Movies, Cracked software etc.? WY am i asking this? bcos many compare the manga/anime industry with the mentioned above things. I will just do the opposite.
If u answer NO, then ur lying.
If u answer YES, all ur comments will mean nothing(to me)
If u answer YES with a reason like....its different.....then ur in denial."
Why in the world would I want to answer your question, then? Either way I am screwed. Nice try, though.
...but then again- unlikely since you guys probably want to make profits for yourselves
All that can translate to lower prices and higher margins. On top of that if fans like it that much they can pay a premium for the hard copies of books if that's the preferred medium. All of this means more niche content, more titles that don't target the 12- year old teenager demographic. In addition since foreign markets will factor into the economic decisions of artists in Japan, it means foreign promotions, fan feedback etc. The problem remains whether or not scanlators want to work with the legitimate copyright holders.
I will reiterate again, I doubt I will personally work with the legitimate copyright holders when they are a publishing company. If it was the mangaka's team, I might consider, but I think I'd find publishing companies highly objectionable to work with. That said I also find a large segment of the scanlating community and the leechers to be sacks of potatoes. Of course, it applies to quite a large segment of the internet as a whole. They just want to enjoy this stuff for free and have no respect for the hard work that others put into providing it. It applies to both the original mangaka and to the scanlators who donate their time to convert it into a language they can understand.
But what I am hearing here is that scanlators do NOT want to become professional translators and get paid for their work.
So I guess I am hearing two very different schools of thought.
Unproductive, you are saying that even if the license holding publishing company were to offer you a job, you would turn them down. That seems incredible to me.
I guess you have built up this belief that manga publishers are like gigantic corporations with no passion for the product. In my experience, that isn't true at all, but it is curious to me.
*yawn*, I generally don't talk to people who ignore 90% of my post but just pick out that one line they had something against. But yeah, I find your opinion somewhat irrelevant here since you think to know better than we, to know better what we want to achieve with this? Well hello thar, Mister Insight. I don't know where your assumptions come from, and I don't care. As for the leecher part, like I said once already: I was modded just last week, and after a few years of scanlating I won't lose my biased attitude towards leechers.
Hahaha. Viz and all the other publishers totally have no idea of the existence of mangahelpers, since it's such a smalll and irrelevant site (especially in Japan ;x).
They have no idea of onemanga either, sure... they have absolutely no idea of what's happening online, that's why they didn't publish an article about scanlations some weeks ago, that's why Kodansha never has sent mangahelpers a C & D letter. Yeah, you are totally right, let's all sit quiet and wait and continue as if nothing is happening in the scene.
You know what's frustrating for the staff? That you people appear one by one, without reading all the already mentioned statements here, and just repeat the same questions, answering you becomes somewhat really tiring.
1. You are going to lose users simply by the fact of going "commercial", more so, if you choose a subscription based system.
2. You are going to lose users due to the drop of available mangas, i.e. only Manga by Sueisha and Shogakugan will be available at the beginning (probably only those published by Viz). Of course we won't see Kodansha and Hakusensha Manga at the beginning.
3. You are going to lose users, because there will be country restrictions. And I'd say that those restrictions will be severely harder than those placed on crunchyroll, because there are more licensing partners for Manga worldwide, than there are for Anime. My guess: it will only be available in countries, for which Viz has got the licenese for, by a per Manga basis.
For 1.: the effects may be not as hard, if you go for an ad or ad/subscription based system.
For 2.: Nothing can be done about this one. Only time will tell if you can get those publishers to cooperate or not (of course there is always the chance, that they'd rather start a similar service of there own). But one thing is for sure: we will NEVER see the same number of Manga published on mangahelpers.
For 3.: US, GB, Italy, France, and then only VERY few manga.
In conclusion:
Unless you have the big japanese publishing companies behin you, thus agreements for more Mangas than those licensed by Viz (which I'd say are NOT all published by Shueisha and Shogakukan, but rather very few), your project will most likely fail, because the highly restricted number of viewable content, in addition to the low number of users ( for above mentioned reasons), will not be enough to raise enough funds. (ok, if you can get Onepiece, bleach and Naruto it probably will be enough :>, even if it's US only)
No, that's just a side effect.
They are doing it for their own sake, i.e. monetary reasons and the way out of illegal business. Nothing else. I'd probably do the same in their position.
and ..
To those who may be pissed off ,its all but a plan that has of yet not taken any fruition and shouldn't be taken to face value as of yet.
My day job probably pays two to three times better than any translation job that I might find. Why bother with such a hassle.
Publishing companies are only content distributors. It's decidedly old fashioned. I'd rather work with the content creators and fashion a new content delivery system. All the traditional content distributors should evolve or go out of business.
@MH
You do know that among online manga distribution, quality control is sorely lacking. Since MangaHelpers has always paid some lip service to quality, it is possible to find a niche there. In that respect, it also helps to combine both legitimacy and legality into that formula.
That means shoring up the MH quality control system which has been woefully understaffed. Adding to the troubles is that MH should expect less community in the future. Like with all businesses, it's hard to say if MH will be successful. My suggestion is start looking at what you need for staff and recruit in areas where you are lacking.
Once you are to become a legal system you are more vulnerable than now because you make yourself known by others. The reason why many against your ideas because they want to keep their anonymity. People love the net because they could keep anonymous to other and only give their true identity to the one they trust to. And at sometimes they trust you to keep their identity hidden from those people that will sue them for what they have done.
And once the deal was made, one way or the other those anonymous scanlators have to give their identity to the one they know could harm them. Have you think about that? Maybe you havent.....
For translators, they dont have high risk, as they only translate and translating a manga not always considered a violation of copyright. But for those who upload raws, post scanlation, they have higher risk as they do copyright violation no matter where they are and no matter what country they are in. Those with higher risk are those where the series have been licensed.
Even once a deal was made, you should erase all the database about everyone in MH, and start from scratch. Because if not you would jeopardize everyone who are a member of this community to a lawsuit. THAT IS IF you really care about the scanlators and RAW provider, not to mention leechers that have make this community grow. You should know that a company that deal with copyright violation will try to get all the ordinary guys that also violate their copyright and get something out of them. Try Sony vs Messiah 2 makers as Sony tries to ask the Messiah 2 makers when he lost the trial to give the name of people who buy his chip. Thank god the Judge doesnt accept that. But that also should be considered by you guys in MH. Unless you are too naive to think that the publishers dont have ill intentions, especially when they think that you are one of those who promote the "free manga to read, dont buy the manga you dont like but you could read it for free here" philosophy.
Depending on how you do this, this could be very good, or very, very bad. Crunchyroll is definitely NOT a model you want to use as an example. AT ALL. If you do it just like CR did it, then not only will you alienate a ton of people without the funds or desire to purchase something on a single-chapter basis without a physical, tangible thing that's being purchased. IF this becomes a place to buy manga chapter by chapter essentially, or something like a pay-per-month deal, I'd just sooner go elsewhere and not be ripped off. I'm certain Barnes and Noble would have a better deal on the licenced stuff, and I can go pretty much anywhere else for the unlicenced stuff.
Be very, very careful where you tread with this. My suggestion? Use this to introduce the companies to their future employees, and to have them working together so that when they get hired, the quality of the end product is that much better. If this is just something to cash in on, you can expect the result to be a HARSH backlash from a large portion of the users, similar to what happened to CR.
"@legit
My day job probably pays two to three times better than any translation job that I might find. Why bother with such a hassle.
Publishing companies are only content distributors. It's decidedly old fashioned. I'd rather work with the content creators and fashion a new content delivery system. All the traditional content distributors should evolve or go out of business."
Some publishers pay better than others.
Publishing may be old fashioned, but it is entrenched in culture. News is disposable, so people don't mind reading online, but there is still enough people that prefer reading books on paper rather than on a screen that I think it will be generations before publishing is actually "old fashioned," if ever.
New technologies can usurp old technologies ie. VCR to DVD to Blu-Ray but books have been around for thousands of years, and are more entrenched in world culture.
I have read the business plan and I hate to add to the downers but I can’t see why a publisher or creator would go for it.
It will fail because it won’t be recommended by counsel. Especially the part about participating with the scans groups or permitting scans. Why would I imply that someone else has rights over my intellectual property by permitting them to interpret (alter) the content and control the distributed form. Ordinarily this only ever done by firm written agreements – thick ones. Plus if I take profits from someone else’s work without an agreement between us, I expose myself to getting sued by some random scanlator for a piece of the pie. Unfortunately, the legal tenets of control and ownership of intellectual property pretty much conflict with the very notion of scans and will preclude the existence of publisher participation. You have the same problems with fanfiction, etc.
As such you’ll be reduced to trying to distribute only licensed releases, which as you’ve already recognized, publishers will not permit to be released in conjunction with ‘illegal’ content, and mangahelpers won’t be mangahelpers anymore, which, let’s face it, is a place to read manga without paying for it (for many users, myself included, anyways).
If comic book makers could make money off digital distribution, they’d do it themselves. Unfortunately they know that users are more likely to look for screencaps on photobucket than they are to pay for it.
On another note, I have to say that the part about groups requesting scans be removed seems silly to me. Scanning is something that needs to be done for the love of the scene and maybe pats on the head from appreciative users of the product. I’ll call it “glory.”
Obeisance to the unwritten “code” that scans must not be used without permission or for pay sites is a recognizance for the sake of promoting comity within the community and to reduce the disincentive for scanlators to continue production of scans.
It’s silly when members of groups come on boards like this and in their outrage over violation of the unwritten rules, imply the sort of rights in the material that smack of
actual ownership.
Scanlation groups have no “rights” in the material.
It’s something that’s long been recognized in warez. You’ve got to do this for the love of getting the material out there and knowing that people are enjoying your good work. Once it’s out of your hands, policing its distribution and insisting on enforcement of unwritten rules is a waste of time.
Discourage the exploitation of your already-copyright-infringing material by advising the intended audience where they can obtain it for free. I wouldn’t spill too much ink demanding sites remove “your” material.
I especially wouldn’t discourage it’s free distribution. Isn’t that the point?
Others are always going to come along and try to profit from the fruits of your hard work. If you let yourself get worked up over that, why bother?
Reading through these comments, it's interesting to see the different ways people are reacting to the idea... particularly the people who are bemoaning this, one way or another, as the end of MangaHelpers - people who honestly loved this site, and are sad that things have to change. I think on some level, that's something that pretty much every one of us feels when a situation like this comes about. But I'd like to point out that this exact issue is what this endeavour is seeking to combat.
Why do things have to change? It's simple. Because they're illegal. It doesn't matter whether the site is MangaHelpers or any other site that may appear after MangaHelpers' hypothetical demise - they're never going to achieve a perfect system, because they're operating outside the law. I believe that the people behind MangaHelpers have been consistently working, over the site's lifetime, to make it better, to offer more, to give both fans and contributors a community that provides them with everything they could want. And I think that's a great thing to do, it's been pretty damn successful, and it's a large part of the reason why I love Mangahelpers.
But it's also been doomed from the start. The more a site like this establishes itself, the greater the community it gathers, the better a service it provides, the sooner the inevitable backlash is going to come from the legal manga community. As long as the scanlation scene remains illegal, it's always going to have to take place, to some extent, in the shadows, away from the eyes of the authorities, avoiding drawing attention to itself, and the biggest thing that means is that it can never achieve anything approaching 'perfection'. Perfection requires centralisation, it requires regulation, and it requires legal recognition.
That's why I absolutely can't agree with people who are pointing fingers at the people in charge of MH. All that they have ever tried to do is provide fans and contributors with a high-quality, centralised community to share and discuss their work, and that's still all that they're doing. It's just that with the Kodansha cease-and-desist issue, this site has reached the limit of what it can do whilst remaining on the wrong side of the law. With a major segment of manga now off-limits to them, MangaHelpers is at a major disadvantage, and is most likely doomed to give way to some other site that doesn't have those limitations if it carries on the way it is today. That's why the people in charge are doing exactly what they've always done and seeking a way to keep providing the best service they can.
Obviously, I'm not saying there aren't issues with a venture like this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if it's possible. I'd say for it to have any chance of success, it's at least going to have to somehow face up to the following issues:
1. Free content
There may be a market for paid online manga, or one may develop in the future, when the community becomes more open to such ideas. But going for a paid model here would be suicidal. MangaHelpers would at best become a niche service, alienating the vast majority of the community it has fostered. Ad-supported content is the only way to handle a step into the legal area without sacrificing the support of the community completely. A supplementary paid service could provide higher-quality, downloadable content in addition to the online-viewable content the free service provides, but the key point is that the community can still get the manga they come here for without having to fork out cash.
2. Decent quality
I'll accept that a free, ad-supported service and high-quality downloadable image content probably can't go hand in hand. But the online viewing service that is available cannot be half-hearted. Fans are used to reading their manga in high-quality image form. If all they can get from MangaHelpers is a restricted-size Flash viewer where they have to zoom in and scan around to actually view it properly, they're going to go elsewhere. Nobody likes clunky viewing systems like that, no matter how effective they are at 'protecting' the images. The people in charge of the official distribution have to be made to see that it doesn't matter how much protection is placed on them, the fans are going to get their hands on high-quality copies of these images regardless; what matters is that the fans are satisfied with what they can legally access so that they don't have to resort to that.
3. Internationality
Whatever deal is struck, it cannot be region-limited. This is a big barrier, but an important one. Somehow the deal has to be made such that IP-blocking is not part of the equation. Fans do not like to be excluded; that's practically the entire reason the scanlation community exists in the first place. Restricting the service to only a handful of nations means alienating massive proportions of fans and making the rest of them more sceptical than they already are.
4. Contributors
Like it or not, the people involved in doing the actual scanlating and translating of these series are going to want to get something out of it. Sure, they've been doing it for free up until now, but that's because the whole thing was illegal and unofficial, so it seems only natural not to ask for anything in return. Make the whole thing official, and suddenly people are doing free work for an organisation who is profiting from it; their expectations are likely to change somewhat. This goes particularly for translators, who are providing essentially the exact same service that professional translators get paid for... except for free. In order to combat this, keeping the existing translators loyal and new translators coming, I think it's important to play up the role of the site as a 'testing ground', as it were, for aspiring translators; somewhere where they can practise and have their work seen by the masses, and ultimately, if they're good enough, somewhere that can provide inroads to translating professionally. (I'm really not sure how this works for the cleaners/editors/typesetters side of the equation, because I'm not exactly familiar with their thoughts and motivations in the current community, and as such can't really put myself in their shoes and imagine what place they might find or what incentives they might need in this new community - but it could well be as big, or bigger, an issue, and certainly something that needs considering.)
5. Content
This is the big one. Probably the biggest reason I'm sceptical about this, and the reason I have no idea whether it's even possible. Basically, in order to replace the scanlation community with something legal (and that's essentially what we're talking about here), this system has to provide fans with everything that the scanlation community offered in terms of content - or as close to that goal as possible. This is why simply talking to Viz isn't enough. Viz only has the rights to a small proportion of all manga titles, and the goal of this service, even if it's not achievable from the get-go, has to be access to pretty much all manga that the fans want to read.
The selection of content available from the get-go, and the prospects of expanding that selection, are what's going to make or break this endeavour if it actually comes to anything. Even if they're reluctant to make the manga themselves available, the companies need to be convinced that translations, at least, can continue to be posted for any series - they're in by far the greyest area, since they don't involve posting the actual original work in any shape or form, and hardly anybody can claim that text translations alone are going to hurt the manga industry. Having those translations available right alongside the actual legal manga will help to demonstrate fan demand for a huge variety of series, help encourage companies to make more series available, and generally demonstrate that this isn't just some little distribution service for one company, or a handful of manga. Retaining its key role as the definitive source of fan translations will go a long way towards helping this venture not to hurt MangaHelpers' position in the existing community. And of course this goes hand in hand with the points I raised above under issue 4.
Again, I have to emphasise - the ultimate goal of the venture needs to be having pretty much all manga available in this way; to provide such a definitive service that it makes the scanlation community as it exists today, to all intents and purposes, obsolete. It may not be possible initially, but the exclusion of even one major series that the fans want to see will cause illegal scanlations to thrive.
There's one sixth point that I haven't mentioned in the list, and that's because it's not an issue that anything can really be done about. But it is still a big one, and a reason why this service has to aim to be definitive, to not only exist as a legal alternative to illegal scanlation, but to displace it entirely. It's the issue of timing. I'm pretty sure all of us in the scanlation community are aware what a major issue this can be; the good old whoever-gets-there-first-wins rule. The issue here is: any legal scanlation system will be at an automatic disadvantage compared to illegal scanlations, because they will not be able to release before the manga is officially released in Japan. This is not an issue for most series, but it is an issue for many of the most popular series. For this system to be successful, it has to be well-executed enough to convince both fans and contributors that its legal nature is reason enough to sacrifice the ability they've enjoyed for years to obtain the most popular manga days before its official release. If the system doesn't succeed in producing a product definitive enough to render illegal scanlations of these series a thing of the past, the vast majority of fans will always turn to the illegal option simply because they can access it days beforehand.
(Oh, and a fairly obvious but nevertheless important corollary of the time issue: whatever form they take, these legal scanlations must make chapters available immediately after they are released in Japan, barring the obvious time that it takes for translators/scanlators to do their jobs. Introducing any extra delay into the process would make it completely impossible to compete with the illegal equivalent.)
"Even once a deal was made, you should erase all the database about everyone in MH, and start from scratch. Because if not you would jeopardize everyone who are a member of this community to a lawsuit. THAT IS IF you really care about the scanlators and RAW provider, not to mention leechers that have make this community grow. You should know that a company that deal with copyright violation will try to get all the ordinary guys that also violate their copyright and get something out of them."
Yeah, right. Read page 19. The illegal scanlation scene, who made MH in the first place, will be MH archenemy. And they will use that database to hunt and take the bad guys down.
That's fantastic. I'm one of the people re-writing the business plan to be up to date and even I did not know that MH, and myself included, intended to do that.
Note for the rest of you: cut out the ridiculous rumour mongering and stick to facts so you don't end up looking as stupid this guy.
maybe you missed it.
http://www.cartoonleap.com/2009/08/24/scanlations-are-the-new-headache-for-japanese-manga-publishers/ - great article about publishers, their "top-grade" work and "shoddy" scanlations. And naive people at MH still hope to do business with them.
What is the mid-range of a hourly on translation job? Can it touch $40/$50 an hour? How about $75/$80? I don't care about the small variation in publishing houses. Anyways, TLing for publishers removes all enjoyment out of it, so it comes down to pure economics.
@cnet
I don't see how the scanlation community cannot co-exist with any kind of pay site. In fact base on the demand for scanlations of both high and low quality at the low low price of free, I would have to think that the scanlation community will always exist just like software piracy will always exist. Some segment of the population an obligation to pay and think that it's worth it for both the speed and quality, but the poor and cheap will always exist in enough numbers to sustain an illegal community. Remember, people trade raws in Japan despite its mass availability. Those folks will be more than willing to wait or deal with the reduce quality.
By the way, entire magazines are translated very loosely into Chinese and republished across Asia and they do just fine. There is no need to be first to market, have the most accurate translation possible, or be of the highest quality. Killing the scanlation scene in my opinion is a pipe dream. It's more important to have maximum sustained profitability.
1) Can we really trust Viz? They can easily just tell mangahelpers to never post the free scanlations. All our hard work will be demolished and anyone thinking of going against the system will be hit harder. Not to mention, cooperating with them gives them access to the database and website. They can easily put a tracking code into the site (or if mangahelpers has one already ,use it) so that they can trace scanlation groups and go after them. You may have done it without ill intentions, but I don't know about Viz's intentions. In my opinion, Viz doesn't need Mangahelpers to have something similar. If they had wanted it, they would have made it already since this idea has been out there for years. So, why are they cooperating? A big community doesn't seem like a good lure since a big part of this community is here because they are too cheap to pay for the books. You have kids who have no access to money, and if they have parents like mine, asking for money to read manga is out of the question. With Viz's resources, I doubt they will have that much trouble making a large community with pay-per-view. There is just something wrong about why Viz would be willing.
2) Is it really possible for scanlations to be legalized? I don't see this happening because no matter what, unlicensed or licensed, we are stealing from authors unless they give the permission themselves, not just Viz agreeing with not doing anything to us.
3) The idea with Viz providing the resources and we just use it to do things for free is a bit odd. Mostly because this sounds like Viz will later use this to profit off it.
4) You say you do not want to harm other sites like your site. However, in the message you plan to send to Viz, you included names of sites just like this one. This makes them easier targets. This looks more like an effort to save yourself and forcing other sites to decide as well. This is also unfair because it now seems that their options are "give in to publishers" or "shut down". Just because you wish to work with the publishers doesn't mean every other group wants to do the same.
5) You give all these claims, but I do not see evidence. How can we believe that older releases will not be affected? How can we believe anything you say? Viz has a lot more resources and is a lot more powerful than mangahelpers. If they want something, most likely they will have it because they have the advantage: we all did something illegal and they can easily take people to court. Pretty much they can blackmail.
6) Why only Viz? There are a lot of publishers. No offense, but I don't see why only one publisher should profit, especially since they are already big.
7) Do you have a fall-back plan if Viz doesn't accept your terms? You do know that there will be a lot of scanlation groups that were put at risk due to this conference with Viz. You may have wished that Viz will not touch any group associated with you, but it doesn't mean they have to listen.
If you can address these, it would be nice.
Caya
"What is the mid-range of a hourly on translation job? Can it touch $40/$50 an hour? How about $75/$80? I don't care about the small variation in publishing houses. Anyways, TLing for publishers removes all enjoyment out of it, so it comes down to pure economics."
If you aren't making at least 40 or 50 bucks an hour than you aren't doing it right. See your name on the first page of a title you worked on right under the author and editor feels pretty good. Try it some time.
Caya said:
"1) Can we really trust Viz? They can easily just tell mangahelpers to never post the free scanlations. "
It's funny the scanlators wondering if they can trust the legal license holders, but to answer your question, MH will never be a legal site with scanlations posted. Never going to happen. The Japanese license holders would never agree to that. Ever.
"2) Is it really possible for scanlations to be legalized?"
Not in a million years.
"7) Do you have a fall-back plan if Viz doesn't accept your terms? You do know that there will be a lot of scanlation groups that were put at risk due to this conference with Viz."
Are you talking about that post about a conference in Tokyo. Cannot possibly be real.
Well part of the question is whether it can reach the $75-80 mid-range? I mean I might as well as ask if it gets to $120-140. Really it's hard to say that I would even been interested at such a rate.
In general translators are not paid by the hour, but by the word (or character). In manga it is by the page, so how much you get paid an hour also depends on how efficient you are. It can get into the $200/hour range for some projects, but it just depends.
@Legit
Even though the status of this community is based on illegal sharing of copyrighted works it is still a community. The voices raised here are a reflection of the feelings of community members. Whether hypocritical or not is immaterial in this instance. The community has the right to express themselves.
You however do not. Certainly not here and especially not in the way you've done so far. Schadenfreude is a sign of an ugly personality which further stains you with the mark of small mindedness and petty hatred. IOW, you are not a nice person to say the least, mmkay?
Your diatribes so far lack any factual basis. Your claims are pure conjecture. You offer no proof or evidence to support your argument except for claiming a moral high ground in your suppositions. Anybody here who has been effected by your stance has been fooled because of their own ignorance of the issue and the moral ambiguity of being on the other side of the law. Case in point, the blind leading the blind. So let me ask you to please Cease and Desist on the grounds that you are a bonehead out of his depth and you're boring to boot.
@All Readers
The Internet and the digitisation of information have effected many industries. The Status Quo, mostly made up of publishers and distributors is being diminished. Their power waning. Why? Because as middle men they no longer have sole control of distribution. These middle men represent a huge number of people in fields like Law (Licencing), Finance, Management, Middle Management, Sales and more besides. They all have an interest in maintaining their power even though the Internet makes them largely useless.
You see, these people take the hard work of creators (Artists, Designers or anybody who physically creates a product) and they inject themselves in between said Artists and the people who will pay for the physical product. They call this a Service or an Investment or helping the Artist to free their time to create more. They have developed a myriad of ways to procure, package the product and distribute it. They have made a behavioural science of it.
Most people with common sense would think that such services are useful and to a degree they are. The problem is human nature. Greed and avarice destroy the balance between creators and distributors and have given rise to a Status Quo. It has become a predatory system not based on mutual need but on those who have more exploiting those who have less and want more. Eg; Record companies paying their Artists 3% of the revenue raised through the sale of their work. Publishers paying their writers and artists a flat fee for a product they will perpetually be able to sell and re-package and sell again while demanding ownership of all intellectual properties etc.
This has been going on since the dawn of Man of course but along side it has crept the spirit of evolution which has provided a counter balance. All great powers that have risen on the backs of exploitation were eventually humbled, brought to their needs and even wiped out. The Internet is doing that right now to Music Companies, TV Networks, Radio Stations, Publishing, News Companies etc. These powerful groups have lost control over sole distribution channels and they are finding that they cannot compete against a network which has put a price value on their services as Zero. Certainly not using their old tactics. So they must change, dissolve or die. Of course any organism fighting for their survival will kick and scream and fight and while this struggle will prolong its existence to some degree it will not save it. I call it Angry Dead Men Screaming. ;)
My next post will examine the case of Manga Publishers and their current woes as well as where this particular community stands, is heading and whether it will live or die. Any takers? I'll be back after a short break. ;)
Well I agree with all that which is why I think distribution should be cheaper and publish houses are the remnant of the past rather than something we should pin our hopes to for the future.
It's not to say that I might not pay a premium for paperback editions of manga, but rather I will be far more selective in my purchases and look for lower cost alternatives to sample and get taste of manga that I might be interested in. Even when engaging in illegal activities, economics factor in. Make it cheap enough and there's chance for a revenue stream. Make it too expensive and most people will turn to illegal channels.
Large part of the internet is driven by the sentiment that content producers deserve to get paid in one way or another - maybe less than they currently are getting paid - but that the content distributors are ripping everyone off. But please don't give us another dissertation on the nature of man. Please!!! I beg you.
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/magazine/17-09/ff_goodenough
also,
http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist
The above discusses the case of how to build an empire and topple the Status Quo using the Zero value distribution model.
BTW, terms like Status Quo are not Hippie dissertations rather a proper description of the powers that govern. If you want to examine the nature of man you only need to read this Topic in its entirety.
Tossing schoolyard insults at me doesn't help your argument. I will stick to the substance of what you said without trying to cut you down. I will put your words in quotes.
"Even though the status of this community is based on illegal sharing of copyrighted works it is still a community...Whether hypocritical or not is immaterial in this instance. "
The fact it is hypocritical is very material to me, and was my whole point in posting in the first place. If you want to say "we may be hypocrites, but we are a community" then fine, but you will understand why the legitimate manga community is watching this and chuckling.
"Schadenfreude is a sign of an ugly personality which further stains you with the mark of small mindedness and petty hatred. IOW, you are not a nice person to say the least, mmkay?"
Not mmkay. I am simply giving another perspective...maybe a more mainstream perspective...for those that only know scanlations, leeching, copyright infringement as normal everyday behavior.
You try and present this image that manga publishers are evil corporations and mangaka are screwed over by companies that PUBLISH AND DISTRIBUTE THEIR WORK. You should see the mangaka cry and weep when an American publisher decides to publish their work against their will. Seriously? Come on. This is how a lot of MH users have justified their illegal downloading in their heads, but that is not based in any sort of fact.
How much time have you spent in manga publishing companies? Talking with publishers, editors, translators, etc? I don't like to play that card, but you and your misled "publisher haters" force me to.
How many BMWs and Lexus SUVs do you think are in the parking lot at Viz or Dark Horse or Tokyopop or other publishers? (Hint: not many)
Manga publishers and the people that work for them do it for the passion and love of the work. It's not for the payday, which is, trust me, not that great. It is often a passion project and they do what they do because they love manga, not because they are trying to rip off manga fans...much the opposite.
"Your diatribes so far lack any factual basis. Your claims are pure conjecture. You offer no proof or evidence to support your argument except for claiming a moral high ground in your suppositions. Anybody here who has been effected by your stance has been fooled because of their own ignorance of the issue and the moral ambiguity of being on the other side of the law. "
And I can say the same to you, but what I do is legal, and what you do is not.
"So let me ask you to please Cease and Desist on the grounds that you are a bonehead out of his depth and you're boring to boot."
Boring? Obviously not. I stirred you enough to respond.
"These powerful groups have lost control over sole distribution channels and they are finding that they cannot compete against a network which has put a price value on their services as Zero. "
This is where your argument fails. MH has created a system where the price point is Zero. Congratulations, you are helping destroy the legitimate manga market. My point is for MH to suddenly say "OK, NOW we want to go legit," is so hypocritical it is laughable. Name a business that can survive when thieves mass-distribute that product for free. Thankfully there are enough real fans that put their entertainment dollar toward manga, but this fantasy that you are helping the industry (you hate so much) not hurting it is as backwards as it is baseless. You have counted on the generosity of people willing to do something for nothing so they can get something for nothing. The problem is there are too many "nothings" (not to mention the "something" in the first place is stolen) so now MH is forced to go legit or basically shut down.
That is the reality of business. Up until now the MH business model was stealing and distribution. Something for nothing, when that "something" cost nothing (except for the shlubs that bought and posted RAWs with no compensation). Now the gig is just about up.
"My next post will examine the case of Manga Publishers and their current woes as well as where this particular community stands, is heading and whether it will live or die. Any takers? I'll be back after a short break."
Sure, bring it on.
"The above discusses the case of how to build an empire and topple the Status Quo using the Zero value distribution model.
BTW, terms like Status Quo are not Hippie dissertations rather a proper description of the powers that govern. If you want to examine the nature of man you only need to read this Topic in its entirety."
Cameras and advertisements are not stealing copyrighted material. Both of these businesses can survive without content creators. The difference is MH takes content that doesn't belong to it and "makes" it its own (to the point that scanlators call it "my work").
Apples and oranges.
Now if MH can find a way to go legit and provide content for fans for a cheaper price the content providers can agree to, then more power to it. But after years of stealing that content and distributing it for free, why would the content providers want to deal with MH? (the question that has yet to be answered.)
http://www.jbpa.or.jp/en/pdf/pdf01.pdf
If you're informed you'll never be misled by a shit head with a moral axe to grind.
And yes, it is easy reading and ever so informative. I'm looking at you njt.
My concerns were not for the Japanese manga industry but for the American one.
But because the scale is so much larger (and litigation is cheaper) the Japanese publishers are more aggressive against scanlators than the American market can afford to be.
This article posted earlier talks about that: http://www.cartoonleap.com/2009/08/24/scanlations-are-the-new-headache-for-japanese-manga-publishers/
(And it is funny every time I talk about "legality" the retort is about "morality". Not once did I say what people are doing here is immoral. What I said is what they are doing here is illegal. The distinction is worth bringing up.)
...and you have made your point, continuously and nauseatingly. You linger like a bad smell pointing a copyrighted finger and saying ha ha like a snot nosed punk. That is why you are a shit head. And you are a bone head because you've missed the point on just about everything in this discussion. Instead you challenge others to get into verbal arguments taking the moral high ground. Since we've established and agreed that what is done her is illegal you don't need to keep pointing it out. Now do us all a favour and go away.
If not then I vote that njt BAN your ass, delete your stupid and worthless posts and blacklist your IP. That way we can all have a semi polite and factual discussion.
Who is with me? Let's ban this asshole, he doesn't belong. Anybody wanna make a poll?
I respond to you point by point and your response to me is a laundry list of profanity.
If I am repetitive it is because no one can answer the essential and fundamental question I have been asking since the day I joined. What interest does Viz have in making a deal with Manga Helpers?
Have whatever discussions you want on other threads or posts, I have not and will not interrupt them. But on this thread this is the essential question. And until now no one has attempted to answer it.
Call me a "shit head" and call me a "bone head". That's fine. Say I am trying to take the "moral high ground". Never have I talked about "morality", only "legality". Again, I ask you to make the distinction. Morality is a personal path. Legality is not, and MH is illegal. In your perspective this makes MH "grey" and my point from the very first post I made is that it is not "grey" but very black and white.
But if my posts merit a banning and your profane substance-free posts do not on Manga Helpers, then I would prefer to be banned than shine the sunshine of reality on your corner of the the Internet for a moment longer.
But it is interesting to me that not only do you want me banned, but you want my posts deleted, so no one else can read them. That seems like the opposite of Manga Helpers philosophy.
MH got C&D from kodansha to take off there stuff
Now imagine
Shueisha does the same
Shogakkukan does the same
futabasha, kadokawa say wtf we are doing it too
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO THEN
At least MH is trying to avoid that situation before it actually happens
THERE WILL BE NO MORE MH LEFT
Maybe i m being a cynic here
but imagine being njt and getting all the C&D letters from all the publishers
guess what manga by Tokyopop runs on OM because they can understand that online manga in turn helps the user to choose the manga before buying it
The question is not will MH work with the publishers, the question is will the publishers work with MH.
And the answer is no.
There are and always will be alternatives to mangahelpers.
It's not as if the world is going to end.
Besides, according the deal they've planned, most likely the vast majority of mangas will be removed.
So the mangahelpers as we know will end anyways.
I will answer your dumb ass question in the hope that you will finally shut the fuck up and the conversation will get back on track.
VIZ aka Shueisha will not work with Manga Helpers unless njt or whoever makes the presentation is one hell of a salesman and convinces one or more of the executives that doing so is actually a great idea. It doesn't have to make sense or even be realistic and it can be pie in the sky bullshit yet the fact remains that in the world of business, shoddy deals are the norm not the exception.
If you believe that logic, the law, common sense or best business practices will decide a business deal then you are a babe in the woods. What will be decided hinges on many factors none of which can be predicted. That is why repeatedly asking a question like that and expecting an honest answer shows that you are indeed a half wit. On top of that, if and I mean if, njt has an ace up his sleeve that will help him make bank do you really think he would divulge it on a public forum?
Happy now? Would you take your sunshine and stick it back up your arse on your way out? Because we like our grey area just the way it is and you deserve every bit of profanity directed at you for being a childish agitator who gets his kicks baiting teens who obsess over Manga.
Please refrain from stating your opinions like facts. It will make you look foolish if you are proved wrong. I kindly ask to stop complaining about the plans when you know next to nothing about what is actually going to happen.
And finally. You wrote in Post #198:
But it is interesting to me that not only do you want me banned, but you want my posts deleted, so no one else can read them. That seems like the opposite of Manga Helpers philosophy.
-----------
This is on the front page, you fact mangling mental midget:
The goal of MangaHelpers is to provide you with accurate translations for the Manga that you love. In return, all that we ask for is that you show appreciation to those who help you get your "fix". Also, don't forget to help others in return - if you can! - njt
----------------
If you cannot get the philosophy right then you've no right arguing about anything else since even the basics seem to escape you. It also shows that you are willing to make up any old crap on the spot to suit your cause. This makes you a liar.
I want your posts deleted because they are a steaming pile of shit and they distract the mob from constructive dialogue. Is it that hard for you to understand or should I scanlate it for you?
Legit, we got your position, stating it over and over again won't make it any stronger, it'll have the opposite effect. Any more and it can be considered as spam. Got me?
Gee sorry Sir. Consider me duly chastised. But also consider that you've allowed this to go on for... how long?. He should have been Spamboxed after his second post.
As I outlined in my comment above, I believe that a legal system successfully displacing the existing scanlation community would be a near-miraculous feat. It can't be accomplished without doing it exactly right. And a big part of that is winning over the existing community. MangaHelpers is where that existing community is. If they can win over a large proportion of the fans and contributors here at MangaHelpers, that's going to give them an instant foothold. Turning MangaHelpers itself legal rather than starting their own legal online manga system makes sense because MangaHelpers is the community. It's the difference between converting the community naturally from the inside and attempting to crush it from the outside. And the community, in the end, is what this is all about. All those fans who currently read manga for free: converting them into legal readers is the goal of the entire endeavour.
On a similar note:
When I talk about displacement, I don't mean that illegal scanlation is going to suddenly disappear from the face of the Earth. I'm talking about the fans. The readers. The customers. They're the commodity here, and right now the majority of them get their manga through illegal routes. The success of a legal venture like this is determined by how many of those fans are converted to instead reading primarily through legal routes. By its very nature, 'success' means 'displacing' the scanlation community in the sense that fans who once read manga illegally will now read it legally.
And what I'm saying when I talk about complete displacement is that there's a tipping point, if you like. A point where the legal route becomes the norm. Where enough fans use it, and are satisfied with it, that scanlation just doesn't seem all that necessary any more, because it would just be providing something illegally that people can, and do, get legally just as easily. Where the legal route gathers such a following for itself that the publishers can see that it really works, take it seriously, and give it their wholehearted support. The wholehearted support that it needs to make any real difference and not just fall flat on its face.
Sorry dude but your statement contradicts itself. First of all the Publishers don't apply common sense, they apply business sense and those two are very different. Common sense is the obvious way to go about doing something, Business sense is doing something that will be of most benefit, whether strategically, financially, disruptively etc.
They ARE the status Quo so how can they not like it??? Maintaining this position is of utmost importance to them. They will go to great lengths to maintain it and that means that if they feel they have to stamp out piracy at any cost they will do so if they think its expedient. Look at the case of the RIAA suing music fans at the expense of the Music companies and their artists credibility. Else the the War on Drugs etc.
Of course a savvy operator can exploit this for their own benefit if they play the game right, get lucky or be at the right place at the right time and telling them what they want to hear.
It is clear that the Internet is hurting the middle men. MH's plans are to also become middle men. That is not a sustainable business model in an environment that is shrinking.
MH concedes that it will lose a large proportion of their existing community but it can still make money on those who will remain. The publishers will be faced with a choice of exploiting this resource and angering or alienating their current business partners. Just what kind of profits does MH expect to make that a conservative Japanese company would risk their standing and face? Even if MH posed no threat to any of their partners it will not be seen that way by many of them. Will such turmoil be in their best interest? Will their partners or even colleagues and board members use MH's illegal status as a red flag to scuttle the deal?
If you've downloaded and read the Japanese Publisher's guide PDF I posted earlier, have a look at the Org Chart. Where do you see MH fitting in? Will it neatly slot in or displace some other company or organisation? As a side note, can anyone tell me what is missing from that chart?
These are just a few points worth pondering. I admit they create uncertainty and doubt but MH will need to address these issues because they will all come up during any negotiations taking place. That is why you if you decide to go ahead you will want a world class salesman/lawyer on your team because even the most water tight and brilliant plan will be taken off the table if the wrong person gets nervous or has doubts.
What about the penalties for failure? If you lose the deal and the community trust where will you be? Are you better off now? Would you be better off staying one step ahead of the law using foreign servers or other fun means? The Pirate's life should be a profitable one but you need the stones for it.
What do you think so far? I believe MH should consider these issues very carefully and I'd like to hear from the community... hopefully after they've done a bit of research.
If you decide to be open about this I will share with you a plan/idea that is a lot more viable, sustainable has huge growth potential worthy of the Internet age. It will also ensure the community will see you as heroes, not villains. ;)
@niteshbhasin
If all publishers wanted to remove the scans, they would have done so already. You are over-exaggerating. If anything, probably more will have theirs taken off the internet when mangahelpers makes it known that scanlations exist. Some authors may not like the idea of their stuff being placed on the internet, whether legal or illegal (some may like being traditional and they get to charge a lot more for books).
Also, I have been in this industry for almost 10 years. If mangahelpers for some reason gets a C&D to be deleted, well, there are others. If a group gets deleted, many will rise to replace it, just a bit more quietly in hopes that no one notices. This is one of the reasons scanlations still exist; it is just too complicated to take down. However, if they decide to go to the source (get people's address, start charging for lost profit), this will probably hit the scanlation world harder (though most likely not get rid of it - see the prominent music piracy - it still exists even though music industries track students in schools and charge them thousands of dollars for downloading music illegally).
Thank you for the mature and honest response. I agree with you that publishers want to get rid of scanlations and that any lawful form of Manga Helpers will be one without scanlations.
However, I do not think that publishers see the "hordes of manga fans" who get their fix for free from MH as "manga fans" (=potential buyers) but as "free fans" who will move onto the next free thing or free site they can find. I believe most of the users here will leave MH if it becomes a pay site at any level. The comments here speak to that.
I think converting the community from the inside is a noble cause, for sure, and I would not try to disparage the attempt, however fleeting I think it is.
@zidane. I got you. I have mostly been responding to comments directed toward me, but it sounds like my message got through.
I still have to wonder.... WHY?!?! We are not unreasonable! If you had asked us, maybe we wouldn't be so mad. If anyone were to leave, it would be for the fact you had intended to go behind our backs, not just because you wanted to work with Viz.
Possibly one of your answers would be: We planned to tell you later.
WHEN is later? After the deal or even as soon as you propose the deal to Viz? Or after we all get contacted from Viz for all our illegal work? You can say that you planned to tell us before the deal, but after this stunt, who would believe you? If this never leaked, I really doubt you wanted to tell us in fear of what the outcome would be. However, this would have blown up in your faces if you told us afterwards (a lot bigger than the outroar that occurred when we had to find out this information through a leak rather than directly from you guys).
In my opinion, if you feel the need to blame anyone for this mess, you should blame yourselves, not the one who leaked it. You should have told us all as soon as you started thinking about the idea (make a poll, comment section, SOMETHING!). If we have found out later, there will be huge chaos compared to this little uproar.
We wanted to have a finished proposal with an explanation ready, but seeing as it leaked, it can't be helped. Shit happens and now we have to deal with it.
And the "backstabbing thing" as you call it has really been talked about in the last 3-400comments (last news post's comments), I wish not to bring it up again.
We didn't want to send it or do anything behind your backs. We wanted to post a finished proposal, as I wrote above, and at the same time allowing you to comment on it, suggest, etc.
With the international community excluded that takes a good chunk away from the "user base" you are trying to sell to them. Translators, Scanlators, and leechers alike have no reason to stay.
Not only that, most of the people come because the manga is free anyway. The moment this place goes legit the majority of the base will scatter.
So the international community gets excluded, the North American leechers jump on to other sites that are free, and you are left with probably less than 10% of your current head count. Just exactly what do you have left to even offer Viz? That is assuming they don't try to arrest the lot of you for your years of helping the illegal scanlation community.
People are already jumping ship just from this announcement alone and many people will never be insane enough to go along with providing what is needed to sustain the operation in this plan to begin with.
This is doomed to fail and Kodansha sending this place a C&D may have been the beginning of the end anyway. If you go with this plan you are screwed for reasons mentioned before and if you stay as you are you would have to keep hoping other companies don't send C&Ds as well.
Either way, this place will not be the same again due to this incident.
It seems like MH is trying to do the same type of thing as Crunchyroll did. However, I'm not sure how well this will work w/ printed media as opposed to video as it's a really different medium. I've not done any studies on it, and it seems like others, who have previously commented here, have, so I'll leave that to them.
I do know one thing, however. If somebody is going to do a legitimate translation/distribution/etc of either anime or manga, they will need to do it in such a way as to "make scanlators or fansubbers of the same manga or anime irrelevant". In other words, do such a good quality job with it that the general public will WANT to purchase the legal stuff rather than get it illegally. This is what is called "killing the competition". If MH goes to the 'Legal Side' (hopefully THEY have cookies, too and not just the Dark Side), then they need to keep this in mind. They will need to ONLY produce good quality stuff. As we all know, while there are many, many good scanlators out there, there are also many, many crappy scanlators, too. This is always the case when it is fan translated, and, while there's nothing 'wrong' with it (besides the obvious), people shouldn't be expected to pay for shoddy translation work.
The pessismist in me believes that, unless this idea of MH gets seriously overhauled (and I don't know how, so don't ask me), it's not going to work. I believe that, right now, the best way for something to happen that will re-spark the English translated manga community is for something like CLAMP and Dark Horse are going to be doing, which is release the original manga and translated manga at the same time. If enough publishing companies start doing this, even down to starting to do the serial magazines like Young Jump, Sunday Shounen, and the like, it will probably be better for manga publicity than something like this.
Now, saying that, I don't want to imply that there's no place for digitalised publishing over the internet, I just personally don't know how to flesh that out. Also, while I don't mind reading books/manga/etc. on my computer (over 160GB of manga), I like physical books as well (my manga collection is currently at ~1200 books, both Japanese and English).
Anyhoo... tl;dr: MH, if you want to do this, make sure that quality is part of the equation.
oh, and a PS: You'll have to excuse my colleague at Kotonoha, Nomad Soul, for his A+++ trolling. He doesn't mean anything he said here in this forum and successfully trolled quite a few of you. It was quite amusing ^_^ gj, Nomad.
(Like your detailed posts cnet - thanks)
I really think this is possible! And will fight like Luffy to make it happen ;).
I think the problem with what you're suggesting, is that no individual scanlation site forms the backbone of the community. This is like saying that DailyManga or MangaNews was the community circa 2004-2005, etc. Or that CKMoney or Lurk was/is the community, etc. around 2006-2007. Infrastructure can be rebuilt anywhere. Scanlators are the heart of the community.
MangaHelpers provides a valuable service, but we should be careful to determine what infrastructure is essential to the scanlation community and what can be replaced.
Also, I think the model for MangaHelpers should be inherently less aggressive than you suggest. Any attempt to displace a niche "illegal" scene with a legal framework is doomed to run into a focus problem. I.E. MangaHelpers' biggest userbase is Japanese people coming for raws. Certainly that portion of the site will be shut down if any discussions with Japanese publishers are to go anywhere.
There is a workable model and that is Crunchyroll's model. The focus would be a direct run (totally ignoring US/German/French/Spanish publishers) to Japanese publishers and somehow getting them to agree to some joint licensing framework of getting raws and scanlating and releasing in several languages.
Crunchyroll's model works because Crunchyroll exists alongside the anime groups that still thrive. In some sense both can thrive alongside one another and there is no mutual threat of destruction.
You need to realize that the manga scene existed before MangaHelpers and it will exist regardless of MangaHelpers' position in the community. The reason for the uproar is that there is a significant downside to everyone (including those with no stake here) if MangaHelpers botches its attempts to go public.
For example, a botched attempt to interact with US publishers and then do an end run towards Japanese publishers would stir the hornets nest against English scanlators. A botched attempt at interacting with Japanese publishers with a lot of discord about the position of raws on MangaHelpers would also create a lot of strife since that is one of the biggest foci here.
Most English manga releases do not go through MangaHelpers (maybe 20% do). That is a fact. While most Weekly Shonen Jump releases do go through MangaHelpers, the downside to the general scanlation community is significant if this ends up botched since it would shine an unwanted glare across the entire scene.
As a major scanlation/international site, the admins of MangaHelpers surely do understand that their actions will have an impact on the rest of the scene.
They say that Crunchyroll was successful in it's attempt with their anime distribution with simul-cast nearly the same time as Japan in exchange for being a paying member, but you don't see the other half of it.
Many many members and fans abandoned CR the moment they had them paying to watch the once-free episodes. It was a really big disappointment for us, not only because CR's no longer free, but because it feels like shinji betrayed us...like being friends for a time then when you're close, have you pay for this friendship.
And I find it so ironic that one of your sister sites, MU (MangaUpdates), always has the 'Fight Tazmo!' warnings at the top of their home page, but that what you are now proposing is very similar to what he's doing: selling (anime) and manga resources that should have been freely available to fans worldwide (as others can't get hold of English or manga in their own language, or as others don't have the financial resources to be buying manga), which is the true purpose of this site, if I'm not mistaken.
And if you ever try to change your modus operandi, be prepared for most of your fans and members jumping ship. There are also other sites out there who caters to the same communities as you do, and I'm sure that they'll be more than happy to accept the will-be-coming influx of fans that have jumped overboard.
About also the comment about MH being '_the_ greatest and most notable manga community in the world', that opinion is very debatable, where you'll find many who will not agree. But I'm not saying that yours isn't a great site. You are, if you'll only let the status-quo stand.
Another point that I'd like to make is this: As four owners of MH, you have the ownership right to the workings of MH. I understand that. But the moment you went out to the public, MH no longer just belongs to you, but also to the members that kept it alive and running.
Somehow it is just kind of like a democracy, where the power lies in the people.
You have the obligation to let them know and consult your members and fans on the major changes that you might be wanting to implement, because they are in this with you. You are only destroying your credibility if you do things in such a way where something will just bite your members up in the ass without any warning.
Remember this: YOU ARE NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR FANS AND SUPPORTERS. Do respect them enough to consult them on their opinions. I cannot make this more than clear enough.
Think about things more fully and see the whole picture before getting any more 'brilliant' (read quick-rich schemes) ideas.
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Trying to take everyone down with you is sickening to watch.
You claim that you won't go after scanlators, but you obviously will once your system comes into play, as shown by page 19 of your proposal.
Trying to control the whole scanlating scene is disgusting.
We do what we do for free, for the love of manga, and for everyone, everywhere, to be able to enjoy.
You also claim that scanlating is illegal, so please take down all the illegal scanlations on your website please.
They are illegal as said by yourselves.
So remove them right now.
You won't? Oh...that's...interesting.
You're even worse than Tazmo, at least he doesn't try and take over everything we do.
Thanks for trying to sell us all out.
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I agree wholeheartedly. Trying to monopolize the scanlating market is not something someone who loves manga and loves to spread the love of manga to fans around the world would do.
The fact of the matter is that through what MH is proposing to do, not only will they be the ones affected, but the other manga communities as well.
Saying that 'it's for fans' as a smoke screen for your real intentions is an insult to all of us fans, as we are already happy with the way things are: which is that scanlations are FREE.
And though we know that no body is forcing us to stay on a sinking ship, it's still a disappointment to see on of the 'leading' communities go down, for that's certainly what will happen.
None of the other scanlation sites and groups tapped into this kind of proposal, not because they didn't see the huge potential for this market, but because they abide by an unspoken agreement (or perhaps not really published agreement) that the scanlating scene is simply for FUN and should be done for free to spread manga to it's lovers around the world.
They abstained from doing such a thing because of such things called 'honor' and a 'moral code'.
Do please check the dictionary if you don't understand what they mean.
Hi crimson, welcome to MH. Fancy that, your account was created Sept 30th.
Many people have posted, saying the exact same thing you did in your 3 posts.
I'm sorry to tell you, your righteous indignation is misplaced.
MH's business plan is a reaction to the C&Ds that have been recieved. It was either sit back and wait for more C&Ds or at least *try* to do something about it. So, then, do what? Attempt to find a way to distribute scanlations legally, it seems.
Now what you and your cohorts here repeatedly express is anger at MH for "trying to make money." I hate to join with legal reader on this but you are yet another example of the many who will whine about paying $0.00 for anything. Did you miss the part of the plan that actually talks about reimbursing people for their efforts? Do you not realize that this site and ALL sites you read manga on are already making money off you, even if you don't contribute? It's called ad revenue--that's right, you're helping people make money and you get none of it, anyway.
The thing I really don't understand about the anger toward MH staff is the near-universal assumption that the motive was bad - "make money." Even IF this plan was presented in a complete form for readers to see, wouldn't many still have reacted the same way? Does it make MH seem any less "evil" to propose a pay system without the leak drama? I argue not. As soon as numbers entered the picture, everyone screams murder, and starts jumping ship.
Though I can't pony up proof to definitively show you that MH's motive was pure, the facts show that MH is at least *trying* to serve as a bridge to a new form of content distribution.
For the record, I too am skeptical, and like legal has pointed to more times than fingers and toes, why would any publisher care when they can do this themselves / MH has little to offer but "popularity" and potential (albeit highly questionable QC-wise) "staff"? But the other side's argument is valid too, that these distributors need to get with the program and start offering online distro of manga. Plain and simple.
You cannot argue with me that there is little you and I can do but stop, watch, and wait. Not flame the thread as you have so tactfully done. If you have constructive ideas on how digital distribution can be proposed to publishers in a way they'll accept, do share. If you have an idea how we can keep it free AND legal, even better.
We're all ears.
Well, actually, I was a member here in MH some years ago until I had to stop in order to pay more attention to my other priorities. I have long since forgotten my account settings, but I have kept abreast of news on matters regarding the manga/scanlation communities. This matter surrounding MH for the present has just roused me enough to open a new account in order to be able to reply to this thread and share my views, however redundant you may think of them.
I'm not narrow-minded enough that i don't see where you're all coming from. I was and still am a moderator and part of the admin of a number of anime/manga communities out there, and also a member of some scanlation teams, so I'm quite well aware of the fact and well acquainted that there is also the matter of the ad revenues and of the other difficulties that MH is currently facing.
What I did was that i just expressed what I thought, and though you said that I was just one of many, "'whining' about paying $0.00 for anything", the fact that many is against it proves that the other side also has a point. The fact that people resort to using/reading online mangas means that they didn't want or didn't have access to the financial means, or even simply that the titles aren't available for them to buy the printed versions of the manga themselves; else they wouldn't be here in the first place.
And you did say that the other sites were already making money off me without me having to pay anything. Well, that's also exactly the point. Though I may not get any part of that money, they make money off me WITHOUT having it FROM me.
You can't expect to go public with this matter and have everyone agree to it. There would always be people who would be bound to voice a protest. I didn't really do something such as 'flame' this thread; all i did was point out the weaknesses in the general plan overall, which I'm quite sure you're also well aware of, and voice my opinion. You can't fault me with that.
If perhaps you have gotten the members opinion on having this proposal in the first place, then perhaps you won't be having negative opinions flung whichever your way this time around.
And about going public on addressing the decision to push through with this proposal; you are still thinking under the impression that though you have gone public with the announcement without the 'leak drama', as you call it, you still hold the right to make the decision of whether to push through with it or not ; what I was trying to say was that you should have gone public with this matter in the first place, even before creating that notorious business plan which had started this mess in the first place, and had a poll or something to ask the members what they want; majority's decision should have been the name of the game. You all have worked closely with the members to bring MH to where it is now. It's only common courtesy to also involve them with such major decisions such as this.
And if you were offended by my implying that you were all in it for the money, and that you really do have pure motives alongside the otherwise obviously beneficial ones, then I apologize. One can't help but become cynical in these kinds of cases seeing other sites doing the same for the said benefits.
I do see the merits of this plan though. Being 100% legal rather than being the ambiguous shades of gray in this business is a big plus. There was a scanlation team that was shut down and was sued by the mangakas due to the illegal distribution of their work online; I'm sure you're quite familiar with this kind of stories. It would be a great weight off the whole communities' back if we don't live in the shadow of the fear of the possible legal repercussions.
But the fact that it would really limit this communities potential and reach is my primary worry.
I know that I have very little leverage or what I'm saying even carries any weight, and there's little i could do about the situation, but I'm here as are all the others to express my grievance and all that whatnot.
Sad to say is that I have no blinding inspiration or anything like that to solve the problems for all the sides' satisfaction, and perhaps I shouldn't have been spouting off my protests when i have no solution readily in hand.
On the other hand, Viz already has a FREE online magazine, 'Ikki and Shonen Sunday'; perhaps you'll come to an understanding if you look at the overall problem through this angle.
I even understand why mangahelpers should earn money along with the mangaka and all, because you'll become like a publisher yourself and all...
However:
I find really annoying the idea that people like me who buy the mangas they read once they are out in their country should have to pay twice (to read online and to get the book).
I would also be pissed if mangahelpers was to earn money for "publishing" and the people scanlating nothing (even if I'm not a scanlator, nor a translator nor anything)
So yes, either a solution is found for these 2 matters (even if the latter is not concerning me at all), or I guess I'll just quit this place I've been on for so long. I really hope that these issues will be taken into account.
but still crunchyroll as example so not a good idea.
looking forward for more info.
>You're trying to make a business out of this? Fine, I'll never come here again then. Just like I stopped going to crunchyroll.
And the most likely response from everyone else will be:
'Don't let the door hit you on your ass on the way out.'
I probably won't be commenting that much more anyway since I found another place to get my raws :3 (other than irc) and got lots of reading and watching to do...oh and playing, lol.
Plus soon...in a few days something fun will happen XD can't miss out on that.
I wish luck to njt for trying what he's trying to do and hope that he doesn't screw himself, his 3 core people and the rest of us while trying to make the deal.
One thing I can tell you for sure: I won't buy stuff from the net since I like the book format even if I have to pay nearly the double to get my manga here outside USA in Europe. For the rest of you people: I hope you won't pay for reading manga when the release is be more shitty than if it was bought from the store. Yes, you will get your naruto fix, but how will you know you didn't buy the cat in the sack? Is it translated right or proofread, editied and quality checked enough to be called a decent release, people would pay for?
Anyways, good luck people, to everyone....even kodansha, lol, good luck stopping my jp2p programs with nice raws when there's a new program out when they try to shut down an old one. (I hope my novels come soon from japan.....orz)
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After reading what the staff had to say about this, I believe, with all my heart, that Mangahelpers should go forward with this plan.
I think that what MangaHelpers is trying to accomplish is not something the 'Manga Community' can accept or understand at this point in time without seeing it actually happen. Why the community is denying your plan is due to dishonesty and the secretive motive.
I have read every comment, every opinion, & every idea that these members had to say. The point to all of these frustrations is that everyone is 'Afraid'. They are afraid that Mangahelpers will lose its ulterior motive; that mangahelpers will never have success with this new idea or business.
The truth is, if Mangahelpers were to go, where will the new manga society be?
Will Mangahelpers create a new site as a backup?
I don't really know if the staff are actually going to tell us what is currently happening but I do know they should understand the consequences behind all they want to accomplish with publishers.
They should be keeping closely in mind that there aren't 'FEW' members who are angry at their business plan but 'PLENTY'. They should understand that the scanlators & translators aren't the only groups who will be confused and have doubts, the publishers will also have the feeling as well.
What MangaHelpers need to do:
-They should find the best way possible for communication between scanlation groups & publishers.
-They should provide flexible rules & goals that will allow comfortable desires and motives between publishers, leechers, & buyers.
-They should bring some sort of fun way to help things to work as planned.
-They should provide honest reasons why members & leechers should buy or support their legal releases.
-they should provide the benefits by helping them get things the way they want them to be.
-They should help provide free & detailed resources that will help people create their own scanlation groups to help publishers in the future. (how to use photoshop, how to translate, etc.)
-Make things feel even more friendly user-wise, so that people will still feel connected to the site even if they disagree.
-One last thing, motivate the current scanlation groups, and give them reasons to help them further understand the purpose for this actions.
My point to all of this:
-Try to get everyone to fully see & beleive the visions Mangahelpers is trying to bring to reality.
-MangaHelpers has allot of members who are concerned about its progresses. Get the majority of them to move in your same direction before you make your change or final decision. If not, then it shouldn't be a surprise if things don't go according to plan.
-Try not to misjudge your members, for it is us you once were.
-Human beings are in most acceptance toward what is 'free' and not what can be 'bought'.
-Never forget why this site is named mangahelpers.
-It isn't named 'mangasellers' or 'mangabuyers', or even 'mangapublishers'.
-Try to keep everything in complete understanding & focus, or it will always be confusing for us all.
Thanks for reading.
but the real problem here i think is 2:
1.lots of interesting less known titles are gonna vanish.
2.exactly how much authority publishers are gonna get over the manga community.
right at this moment i feel that we,the community have the upper hand.no need to hand over that for a reason like 'a site cannot hold both legal and illegal things'.
i think u urself mentioned something about this site being in accordance with japanese copyright or something like that anyway.the fact is that we are doing fine without publisher's help.yes we sometimes have some bouts of qualms,but in the end we get what we want.so the ones who are now currently has got a thing or 2 to worry about are the publishers.
so why don't you make a proposal like this:
1.MH can be a place for the publishers to provide their raws,which the scanlators can use free.in return the publishers can get the share of ad-revenue (only in the proportion determined by use of them by the scanlators..keep reading i'll make this clearer).u see whether they provide the raws or not.....we all know that there will always be ppl who will provide them and always be some places to get them.so basically the only thing that can be beneficial for the publisher's will be to provide them themselves and get whatever share u agree on.of course the scanlators shouldn't mind about that cause now they have to buy,which is gonna be free then.and also keep hosting illegal raws at the same time so the publishers will have to ensure that they provide the best quality raw.If not so then the scanlators will use illegal ones and the publisher's get nothing.
2.the publishers can host their legal versions here.this can again be done in 2 ways:
`a.they will only host 'downloadable' versions which have to be subscribed to(no revenue from ads will go to them)......in that case,any other group will be free to provide their illegal 'ro' ones.again the logic is same,if the publisher's try to stop that here,there will inevitably be another MH.
`b.the publisher's can host free 'ro' versions,gaining a share from the ad-revenue.in that case,MH may stop hosting any other version of only those titles that the publisher is providing.and of course the subscription system for downloads can be added with this.
i think the second option is the one that the publisher's should logically choose.in that case.....what T.D.A proposed could be taken into consideration.there might be 'special' subscription system that will allow extra features like getting the printed version at lower cost.
basically i do not want MH to handover the position of strength that community currently holds........by only stopping illegal versions of those particular titles that the publisher will post in accordance with the second rule,we can basically create some pressures on all other publishers to do the same.
the goal u are working at is great......but i don't think that will be achievable if we take a step like banning 'other illegal scanlations'.make the publishers work hard to get there.
ohh i forgot about to mention about non-english releases.unless the publishers provide in that particular language,keep hosting the fanlations.See what i meant when i said apply pressure,lol.....just turn MH into a battle ground for publishers(they should be thankful for just that cause right now they don't even have that),and keep the community at win-win situation.
There is no point to this. With an official version available no one would read the fan version, therefore making it completely pointless for anything scanlated. So the hard work of scanlators would go to waste.
Scanlation is and will always be a hobby. If a scanlation group asks for anything, it's donations. Donations: a gift, as to a fund; contribution. None have ever demanded anything in return for their hard work except a simple thanks. And donations have always been used towards the scanlation process.
This can tie into the previous comment. And once again, scanlation is and will always be a hobby. Really, how many people do you think actually scanlate because it's something they want to pursue as a career? Not many. Why? Because it's a hobby. And you're trying to the turn it into a job.
If this idea was cooked up with the idea that it was for the good of the scanlation community, things involving the scanlation community - their work - wouldn't be some of the things you've "left up in the air" aka "we haven't completely figured out how this is going to work/we need to talk to the publishers first and see how they feel about our idea." That's like getting a job somewhere and telling them, "Oh, don't worry about paying me." I'm sorry to say, you've used a lot of pretty words, but what this all boils down to is money. And it's funny how you make it sounds as though you're some type of sacrificial lamb or something for the scanlation community and getting nothing out of this. At least be honest with the true reason this idea was even brought about by. Covering your arses and while doing so, making a profit.
I really like the idea of working with publishers and within the boundaries of the law (silly me). I don't like the idea of stealing work from artists and writers I truly admire (if I ever thought for half a second that my favorite manga ever had a snowball's chance in hell of seeing released, I'd ditch all my translations). And getting publishers over here to see the work a lot of us put into this "hobby" might really give some people a chance to make a living out of something they love doing.
I think some of the bellyaching is simply coming from people who are used to getting everything they want for free. These are the same kids I see at the bookstore READING the manga while sitting in the aisleway instead of BUYING it. It's capitalism, darlings.
But for the scanlators and translators, I completely understand the hard work they put into this and their fears of having it stolen. It does NOT sound (to me at least) like MangaHelpers wants to do that and they're making it easy to leave if you're still afraid they might. I, for one, simply want to get my fave manga out to as many people as I can and if I could do exactly what I'm doing now and get some money for the author, then more's the better. He deserves it. If I could get a sweet gig as a translator, more's the better for me, I just don't like the idea of spoiled kids/adults whining because they can no longer get something for nothing.
That's my 2 cents, perhaps worth less. ^_^
Heck, they get stolen all the time anyway... I've seen people selling manga on cd on ebay... Even on these online reader sites now, I'm sure they make a little bit of money, otherwise they wouldn't keep running them... Not that I'm complaining about this site stealing our work, cause we upload them here, but I see them on all sorts of sites that we don't....
And technically, it was "stolen" by the scanlators in the first place, so there's not a whole lot of room to complain... If I got a nod and a wink from the original publishers to just go ahead and keep on doing what we were doing, that'd be okay with me... It isn't about bringing manga to the masses for free, it's about bringing them stories they probably wouldn't see otherwise...
With the ad and traffic (which is ALOT based on your own research material) this site making a killing.
So then suddenly getting a C&D letter really must be a time of panic and a slowly building plan to legalize ones main source of revenue would need to be put into action.
I guess in the end it wont matter if this site becomes just another CC since I'd say it'll be more than enough to live comfortably with.
From a business point of view it's not a bad course of action
From a point of view of a member of the community however, well lets just say there are things better left unsaid for the sake of common decency
To go after all the scan groups will cost a lot of cash. I'm sure they would not go after us only if they would have a cheap person from where they can get information [like a manga fan that knows all the sites]. You said you were not planing to do that, but you actually are hiding under "the big publisher's wish". So I guess it's not save to keep our scanlators group information here....
I'm disappointed in this outcome. I loved the reading online with adds and donations idea but I don't want to associate myself with the publishers because:
1. It would take to much time to release all the titles we want to do [till we get permission from them].
2. The idea for online manga at a certain price it's not new, Netcomics also uses this method and titles are always leaching out from they're site.
3. The idea of the scanlation process it's "free mangas for fans". I don't think anyone would like to work for profit.
All this thing it looks like you only want to save yourselves and throe everyone else in the guilt.
In the end MH is not a prime source of manga, scanlators groups are. You should have tried to find a solution for publishers to join a huge project with all scanlators [enlist the really big ones] not just with your site.
Like I said above, it looks like you are only trying to save yourselves while claiming you won't go against scanlators, but you also said
So they can't work as individual scanlator anymore, only under MH. Now that I find unfair.
It's sad how MT has shrink-ed so low...